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Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Richard Mundy
    Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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      Hi Donald,

      I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
      the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
      of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
      I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
      development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
      think of my limited workshop and budget!

      Dick





      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
      <silent1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Richard Mundy wrote:
      > > Hi Pete,
      > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
      > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
      > > about it!
      >
      > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
      > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
      actually
      > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
      > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
      > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
      the
      > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
      I'd
      > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
      thousand
      > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
      >
      > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
      you
      > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
      relevant!
      >
      > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
      > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
      however,
      > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
      and
      > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
      Newcomen
      > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
      reasonably
      > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
      > point of water).
      >
      > --
      > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
      want,
      > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
      >
      > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
      http://silent1.home.netcom.com
      >
      > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
      > and don't expect them to be perfect.
      >
    • Pete B.
      Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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        Hi Dick,

        Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
        Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
        was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
        with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
        Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
        St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
        Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

        Pete


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        <coracles18@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Frank,
        > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
        most
        > things are.
        >
        > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
        >
        > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
        > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
        >
        > Dick
        >
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
        > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Pete,
        > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
        I
        > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
        anything
        > > > about it!
        > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
        > that
        > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
        > you
        > > > saw it here first :)
        > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
        > Because
        > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
        > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
        > you
        > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
        > relevant!
        > > >
        > > > Dick
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
        <georgeyyy@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Dick,
        > > > >
        > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
        Radarange
        > at a
        > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
        > plate.
        > > > I
        > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
        as
        > a 4
        > > > or 5
        > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
        were
        > in
        > > > the
        > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
        > might
        > > > have
        > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
        > Radarange
        > > > and
        > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
        > thought of
        > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
        > mind
        > > > had
        > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
        or
        > able
        > > > to
        > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
        > those
        > > > > inovators.
        > > > >
        > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
        > Us
        > > > from
        > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
        show
        > a
        > > > hand
        > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
        > > > >
        <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
        > > > >
        > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
        > patent on
        > > > a
        > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
        > inventor/
        > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
        > > > inventor/>
        > > > >
        > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
        now
        > have
        > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
        > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
        > > > >
        > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
        > > > >
        > > > > Pete
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
        out
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > > garden shed
        > > > > > (sorry to go on)
        > > > > > Dick
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
        > forgotten
        > > > > because
        > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
        > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
        > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
        > speculation
        > > > as to
        > > > > > how
        > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
        > Similarly
        > > > how
        > > > > > were
        > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
        > > > > > > Dick
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • David Halfpenny
        ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
          Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

          > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
          > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

          The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
          - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
          masses etc
          - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
          air (like compressed air or other gases)

          The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
          it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
          the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
          around with the losses.

          Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
          would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

          David 1/2d
        • Pete B.
          Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
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            Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

            Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

            Pete


            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------
            > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
            > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
            >
            > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
            > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
            >
            > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
            > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
            > masses etc
            > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
            > air (like compressed air or other gases)
            >
            > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
            > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
            > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
            > around with the losses.
            >
            > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
            > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
            >
            > David 1/2d
            >

          • Richard Mundy
            Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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              Hi David,
              I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
              time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
              way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
              pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
              pressure steam.
              I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
              fun trying.
              Dick

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
              <dh1@...> wrote:
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------
              > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
              > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
              >
              > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
              > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
              >
              > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
              > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
              clearances
              > masses etc
              > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
              atmospheric
              > air (like compressed air or other gases)
              >
              > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
              since
              > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
              soon as
              > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
              messing
              > around with the losses.
              >
              > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
              engine
              > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
              >
              > David 1/2d
              >
            • Richard Mundy
              Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                Hi Pete,
                thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                established pop pop designs.
                Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                Dick

                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                >
                > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                of
                > your own.
                >
                > Pete
                >
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > --------------------------------------------------
                > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                > >
                > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                > >
                > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                clearances
                > > masses etc
                > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                > atmospheric
                > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                > >
                > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                volume
                > since
                > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                soon
                > as
                > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                messing
                > > around with the losses.
                > >
                > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                engine
                > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                > >
                > > David 1/2d
                > >
                >
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