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Re: [pop-pop-steamboats] Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Donald Qualls
    ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
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      Richard Mundy wrote:
      > Hi Pete,
      > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
      > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
      > about it!

      I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
      watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
      start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
      self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
      electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
      laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
      have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
      (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

      > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
      > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

      Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
      density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
      applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
      a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
      steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
      well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
      point of water).

      --
      If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
      it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

      Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

      Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
      and don't expect them to be perfect.
    • Richard Mundy
      Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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        Hi Frank,
        not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
        things are.

        http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

        Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
        the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

        Dick


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
        > better way to let dogs pull you around.
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Pete,
        > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
        > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
        > > about it!
        > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
        that
        > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
        you
        > > saw it here first :)
        > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
        Because
        > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
        > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
        you
        > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
        relevant!
        > >
        > > Dick
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Dick,
        > > >
        > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
        at a
        > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
        plate.
        > > I
        > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
        a 4
        > > or 5
        > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
        in
        > > the
        > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
        might
        > > have
        > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
        Radarange
        > > and
        > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
        thought of
        > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
        mind
        > > had
        > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
        able
        > > to
        > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
        those
        > > > inovators.
        > > >
        > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
        Us
        > > from
        > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
        a
        > > hand
        > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
        > > >
        > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
        > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
        > > >
        > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
        patent on
        > > a
        > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
        > > >
        > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
        inventor/
        > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
        > > inventor/>
        > > >
        > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
        have
        > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
        > > >
        > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
        > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
        > > >
        > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
        > > >
        > > > Pete
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
        of
        > > the
        > > > > garden shed
        > > > > (sorry to go on)
        > > > > Dick
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
        forgotten
        > > > because
        > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
        > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
        > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
        speculation
        > > as to
        > > > > how
        > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
        Similarly
        > > how
        > > > > were
        > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
        > > > > > Dick
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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          Hi Donald,

          I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
          the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
          of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
          I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
          development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
          think of my limited workshop and budget!

          Dick





          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
          <silent1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Richard Mundy wrote:
          > > Hi Pete,
          > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
          > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
          > > about it!
          >
          > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
          > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
          actually
          > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
          > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
          > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
          the
          > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
          I'd
          > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
          thousand
          > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
          >
          > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
          you
          > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
          relevant!
          >
          > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
          > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
          however,
          > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
          and
          > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
          Newcomen
          > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
          reasonably
          > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
          > point of water).
          >
          > --
          > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
          want,
          > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
          >
          > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
          http://silent1.home.netcom.com
          >
          > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
          > and don't expect them to be perfect.
          >
        • Pete B.
          Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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            Hi Dick,

            Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
            Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
            was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
            with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
            Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
            St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
            Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

            Pete


            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            <coracles18@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Frank,
            > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
            most
            > things are.
            >
            > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
            >
            > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
            > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
            >
            > Dick
            >
            >
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
            > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
            > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
            > >
            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > > <coracles18@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Pete,
            > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
            I
            > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
            anything
            > > > about it!
            > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
            > that
            > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
            > you
            > > > saw it here first :)
            > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
            > Because
            > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
            > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
            > you
            > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
            > relevant!
            > > >
            > > > Dick
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
            <georgeyyy@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Dick,
            > > > >
            > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
            Radarange
            > at a
            > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
            > plate.
            > > > I
            > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
            as
            > a 4
            > > > or 5
            > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
            were
            > in
            > > > the
            > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
            > might
            > > > have
            > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
            > Radarange
            > > > and
            > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
            > thought of
            > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
            > mind
            > > > had
            > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
            or
            > able
            > > > to
            > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
            > those
            > > > > inovators.
            > > > >
            > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
            > Us
            > > > from
            > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
            show
            > a
            > > > hand
            > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
            > > > >
            <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
            > > > >
            > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
            > patent on
            > > > a
            > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
            > inventor/
            > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
            > > > inventor/>
            > > > >
            > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
            now
            > have
            > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
            > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
            > > > >
            > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
            > > > >
            > > > > Pete
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
            out
            > of
            > > > the
            > > > > > garden shed
            > > > > > (sorry to go on)
            > > > > > Dick
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
            > forgotten
            > > > > because
            > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
            > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
            > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
            > speculation
            > > > as to
            > > > > > how
            > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
            > Similarly
            > > > how
            > > > > > were
            > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
            > > > > > > Dick
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • David Halfpenny
            ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
              Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

              > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
              > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

              The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
              - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
              masses etc
              - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
              air (like compressed air or other gases)

              The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
              it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
              the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
              around with the losses.

              Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
              would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

              David 1/2d
            • Pete B.
              Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
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                Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                Pete


                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------
                > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                >
                > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                >
                > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                > masses etc
                > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                >
                > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                > around with the losses.
                >
                > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                >
                > David 1/2d
                >

              • Richard Mundy
                Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                  Hi David,
                  I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                  time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                  way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                  pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                  pressure steam.
                  I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                  fun trying.
                  Dick

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                  <dh1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                  > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                  >
                  > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                  > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                  >
                  > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                  > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                  clearances
                  > masses etc
                  > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                  atmospheric
                  > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                  >
                  > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                  since
                  > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                  soon as
                  > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                  messing
                  > around with the losses.
                  >
                  > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                  engine
                  > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                  >
                  > David 1/2d
                  >
                • Richard Mundy
                  Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                    Hi Pete,
                    thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                    This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                    experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                    I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                    established pop pop designs.
                    Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                    Dick

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                    >
                    > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                    of
                    > your own.
                    >
                    > Pete
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --------------------------------------------------
                    > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                    > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                    > >
                    > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                    > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                    > >
                    > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                    > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                    clearances
                    > > masses etc
                    > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                    > atmospheric
                    > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                    > >
                    > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                    volume
                    > since
                    > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                    soon
                    > as
                    > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                    messing
                    > > around with the losses.
                    > >
                    > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                    engine
                    > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                    > >
                    > > David 1/2d
                    > >
                    >
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