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Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Frank McNeill
    Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a better way to let dogs pull you around.
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
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      Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
      better way to let dogs pull you around.

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      <coracles18@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Pete,
      > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
      > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
      > about it!
      > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
      > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
      > saw it here first :)
      > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
      > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
      > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
      > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!
      >
      > Dick
      >
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Dick,
      > >
      > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
      > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
      > I
      > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
      > or 5
      > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
      > the
      > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
      > have
      > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
      > and
      > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
      > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
      > had
      > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
      > to
      > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
      > > inovators.
      > >
      > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
      > from
      > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
      > hand
      > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
      > >
      > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
      > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
      > >
      > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
      > a
      > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
      > >
      > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
      > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
      > inventor/>
      > >
      > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
      > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
      > >
      > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
      > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
      > >
      > > and the jet skis. That's it...
      > >
      > > Pete
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
      > the
      > > > garden shed
      > > > (sorry to go on)
      > > > Dick
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > > > coracles18@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
      > > because
      > > > > it is no longer relevant.
      > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
      > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
      > as to
      > > > how
      > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
      > how
      > > > were
      > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
      > > > > Dick
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Donald Qualls
      ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
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        Richard Mundy wrote:
        > Hi Pete,
        > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
        > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
        > about it!

        I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
        watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
        start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
        self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
        electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
        laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
        have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
        (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

        > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
        > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

        Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
        density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
        applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
        a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
        steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
        well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
        point of water).

        --
        If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
        it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

        Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

        Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
        and don't expect them to be perfect.
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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          Hi Frank,
          not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
          things are.

          http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

          Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
          the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

          Dick


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
          <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
          >
          > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
          > better way to let dogs pull you around.
          >
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Pete,
          > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
          > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
          > > about it!
          > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
          that
          > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
          you
          > > saw it here first :)
          > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
          Because
          > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
          > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
          you
          > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
          relevant!
          > >
          > > Dick
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Dick,
          > > >
          > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
          at a
          > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
          plate.
          > > I
          > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
          a 4
          > > or 5
          > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
          in
          > > the
          > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
          might
          > > have
          > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
          Radarange
          > > and
          > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
          thought of
          > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
          mind
          > > had
          > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
          able
          > > to
          > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
          those
          > > > inovators.
          > > >
          > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
          Us
          > > from
          > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
          a
          > > hand
          > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
          > > >
          > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
          > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
          > > >
          > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
          patent on
          > > a
          > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
          > > >
          > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
          inventor/
          > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
          > > inventor/>
          > > >
          > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
          have
          > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
          > > >
          > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
          > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
          > > >
          > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
          > > >
          > > > Pete
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
          of
          > > the
          > > > > garden shed
          > > > > (sorry to go on)
          > > > > Dick
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
          > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
          forgotten
          > > > because
          > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
          > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
          > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
          speculation
          > > as to
          > > > > how
          > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
          Similarly
          > > how
          > > > > were
          > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
          > > > > > Dick
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Richard Mundy
          Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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            Hi Donald,

            I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
            the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
            of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
            I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
            development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
            think of my limited workshop and budget!

            Dick





            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
            <silent1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Richard Mundy wrote:
            > > Hi Pete,
            > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
            > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
            > > about it!
            >
            > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
            > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
            actually
            > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
            > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
            > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
            the
            > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
            I'd
            > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
            thousand
            > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
            >
            > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
            you
            > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
            relevant!
            >
            > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
            > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
            however,
            > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
            and
            > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
            Newcomen
            > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
            reasonably
            > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
            > point of water).
            >
            > --
            > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
            want,
            > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
            >
            > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
            http://silent1.home.netcom.com
            >
            > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
            > and don't expect them to be perfect.
            >
          • Pete B.
            Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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              Hi Dick,

              Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
              Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
              was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
              with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
              Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
              St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
              Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

              Pete


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              <coracles18@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Frank,
              > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
              most
              > things are.
              >
              > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
              >
              > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
              > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
              >
              > Dick
              >
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
              > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Pete,
              > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
              I
              > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
              anything
              > > > about it!
              > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
              > that
              > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
              > you
              > > > saw it here first :)
              > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
              > Because
              > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
              > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
              > you
              > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
              > relevant!
              > > >
              > > > Dick
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
              <georgeyyy@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Dick,
              > > > >
              > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
              Radarange
              > at a
              > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
              > plate.
              > > > I
              > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
              as
              > a 4
              > > > or 5
              > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
              were
              > in
              > > > the
              > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
              > might
              > > > have
              > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
              > Radarange
              > > > and
              > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
              > thought of
              > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
              > mind
              > > > had
              > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
              or
              > able
              > > > to
              > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
              > those
              > > > > inovators.
              > > > >
              > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
              > Us
              > > > from
              > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
              show
              > a
              > > > hand
              > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
              > > > >
              > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
              > > > >
              <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
              > > > >
              > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
              > patent on
              > > > a
              > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
              > > > >
              > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
              > inventor/
              > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
              > > > inventor/>
              > > > >
              > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
              now
              > have
              > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
              > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
              > > > >
              > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
              > > > >
              > > > > Pete
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
              out
              > of
              > > > the
              > > > > > garden shed
              > > > > > (sorry to go on)
              > > > > > Dick
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
              > forgotten
              > > > > because
              > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
              > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
              > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
              > speculation
              > > > as to
              > > > > > how
              > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
              > Similarly
              > > > how
              > > > > > were
              > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
              > > > > > > Dick
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • David Halfpenny
              ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

                > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

                The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                masses etc
                - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                air (like compressed air or other gases)

                The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                around with the losses.

                Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

                David 1/2d
              • Pete B.
                Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
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                  Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                  Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                  Pete


                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                  > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                  >
                  > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                  > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                  >
                  > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                  > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                  > masses etc
                  > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                  > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                  >
                  > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                  > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                  > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                  > around with the losses.
                  >
                  > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                  > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                  >
                  > David 1/2d
                  >

                • Richard Mundy
                  Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                    Hi David,
                    I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                    time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                    way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                    pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                    pressure steam.
                    I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                    fun trying.
                    Dick

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                    <dh1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------
                    > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                    > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                    >
                    > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                    > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                    >
                    > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                    > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                    clearances
                    > masses etc
                    > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                    atmospheric
                    > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                    >
                    > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                    since
                    > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                    soon as
                    > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                    messing
                    > around with the losses.
                    >
                    > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                    engine
                    > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                    >
                    > David 1/2d
                    >
                  • Richard Mundy
                    Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                      Hi Pete,
                      thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                      This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                      experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                      I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                      established pop pop designs.
                      Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                      Dick

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                      >
                      > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                      of
                      > your own.
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --------------------------------------------------
                      > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                      > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                      > >
                      > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                      > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                      > >
                      > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                      > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                      clearances
                      > > masses etc
                      > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                      > atmospheric
                      > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                      > >
                      > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                      volume
                      > since
                      > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                      soon
                      > as
                      > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                      messing
                      > > around with the losses.
                      > >
                      > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                      engine
                      > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                      > >
                      > > David 1/2d
                      > >
                      >
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