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Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Richard Mundy
    Hi Pete, thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate promise at the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
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      Hi Pete,
      thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
      many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
      promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
      interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
      Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
      Dick


      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The
      engine
      > draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam
      > through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a
      Rumsey
      > Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is
      caused by
      > the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the
      keel
      > tube.
      >
      > Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good
      > frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their
      boat
      > from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I
      was in
      > "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on
      a
      > good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up
      somewhere
      > around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for
      > Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife
      and I
      > did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In
      the
      > "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!
      >
      > A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of
      people.
      > I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of
      each
      > other this year.
      >
      > Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder.
      > http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/
      > <http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/>
      >
      > Enjoy,
      >
      > Pete
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Richard Mundy wrote:
      > > > Hi Frank,
      > > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica,
      I
      > > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
      made
      > > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
      > > > improve efficiency?
      > > > Dick
      > >
      > > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using
      steam to
      > > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now
      common in
      > > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
      Rumsley
      > > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
      > > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
      engine)
      > > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
      (s)
      > and
      > > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
      > increase
      > > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
      the
      > > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
      rudder,
      > > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
      nozzle
      > > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be
      strongly
      > > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
      > propulsion
      > > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
      > similarly
      > > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
      still
      > > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very
      shallow
      > > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
      > line...
      > >
      > > --
      > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
      want,
      > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
      > >
      > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
      http://silent1.home.netcom.com
      > >
      > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
      > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
      > >
      >
    • wdsmith
      Hoo BOY!!!! You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!! I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
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        Hoo BOY!!!!
        You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!!
        " I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
        promise at the time and something better turned up."

        I am stunned so few realize (or realize and dismiss) that technology evolved via the technology of the day.
        So, realizing this, a few things should be obvious:

        1.  "Tried it long ago and it didn't work," is not necessarily a valid thought.
             One or two critical developments and technological evolution could have took a different direction.
        2.  Automatic dismissal based on 100 year old (anymore it may be closer to 100 days old) considerations is not a good idea.

        Of course all generalities are false, including this one.  It is probably OK to skip over the latest perpetual motion machine....
        bit, personally, I stil look close for any new ideas it may spark.  ;o)




        Richard Mundy wrote:

        Hi Pete,
        thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
        many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
        promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
        interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
        Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
        Dick


      • Richard Mundy
        I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because it is no longer relevant. An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England. It is known
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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          I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
          it is no longer relevant.
          An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
          It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to how
          they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how were
          the pyramids or stonehenge built?
          Dick
        • Richard Mundy
          I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the garden shed (sorry to go on) Dick ... how ... were
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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            I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
            garden shed
            (sorry to go on)
            Dick




            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
            <coracles18@...> wrote:
            >
            > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
            > it is no longer relevant.
            > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
            > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
            how
            > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
            were
            > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
            > Dick
            >
          • Pete B.
            Dick, I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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              Dick,

              I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4 or 5 year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in the aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might have been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange and how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind had tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able to convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those inovators.

              On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us from France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a hand pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.

              http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html 

              For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on a boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.

              http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/ 

              Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have Buehler Turbocraft boats

              http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465

              and the jet skis. That's it...

              Pete

               

              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
              >
              > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
              > garden shed
              > (sorry to go on)
              > Dick
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > coracles18@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
              > > it is no longer relevant.
              > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
              > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
              > how
              > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
              > were
              > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
              > > Dick
              > >
              >

            • Richard Mundy
              Hi Pete, how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything about it! A couple
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
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                Hi Pete,
                how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                about it!
                A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                saw it here first :)
                I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                Dick


                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Dick,
                >
                > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                I
                > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                or 5
                > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                the
                > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                have
                > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                and
                > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                had
                > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                to
                > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                > inovators.
                >
                > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                from
                > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                hand
                > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                >
                > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                >
                > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                a
                > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                >
                > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                inventor/>
                >
                > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                >
                > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                >
                > and the jet skis. That's it...
                >
                > Pete
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                > <coracles18@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                the
                > > garden shed
                > > (sorry to go on)
                > > Dick
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                > > coracles18@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                > because
                > > > it is no longer relevant.
                > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                as to
                > > how
                > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                how
                > > were
                > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                > > > Dick
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Frank McNeill
                Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a better way to let dogs pull you around.
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
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                  Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                  better way to let dogs pull you around.

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  <coracles18@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Pete,
                  > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                  > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                  > about it!
                  > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                  > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                  > saw it here first :)
                  > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                  > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                  > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                  > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!
                  >
                  > Dick
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dick,
                  > >
                  > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                  > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                  > I
                  > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                  > or 5
                  > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                  > the
                  > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                  > have
                  > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                  > and
                  > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                  > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                  > had
                  > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                  > to
                  > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                  > > inovators.
                  > >
                  > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                  > from
                  > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                  > hand
                  > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                  > >
                  > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                  > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                  > >
                  > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                  > a
                  > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                  > >
                  > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                  > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                  > inventor/>
                  > >
                  > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                  > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                  > >
                  > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                  > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                  > >
                  > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                  > >
                  > > Pete
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                  > the
                  > > > garden shed
                  > > > (sorry to go on)
                  > > > Dick
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                  > > because
                  > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                  > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                  > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                  > as to
                  > > > how
                  > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                  > how
                  > > > were
                  > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                  > > > > Dick
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Donald Qualls
                  ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
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                    Richard Mundy wrote:
                    > Hi Pete,
                    > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                    > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                    > about it!

                    I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                    watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
                    start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                    self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                    electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
                    laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
                    have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
                    (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

                    > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                    > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                    Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                    density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
                    applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
                    a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
                    steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
                    well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                    point of water).

                    --
                    If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                    it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                    Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                    Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                    and don't expect them to be perfect.
                  • Richard Mundy
                    Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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                      Hi Frank,
                      not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
                      things are.

                      http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

                      Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                      the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

                      Dick


                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                      <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                      > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > <coracles18@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Pete,
                      > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                      > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                      > > about it!
                      > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                      that
                      > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                      you
                      > > saw it here first :)
                      > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                      Because
                      > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                      > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                      you
                      > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                      relevant!
                      > >
                      > > Dick
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Dick,
                      > > >
                      > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
                      at a
                      > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                      plate.
                      > > I
                      > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
                      a 4
                      > > or 5
                      > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
                      in
                      > > the
                      > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                      might
                      > > have
                      > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                      Radarange
                      > > and
                      > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                      thought of
                      > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                      mind
                      > > had
                      > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
                      able
                      > > to
                      > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                      those
                      > > > inovators.
                      > > >
                      > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                      Us
                      > > from
                      > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
                      a
                      > > hand
                      > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                      > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                      > > >
                      > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                      patent on
                      > > a
                      > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                      inventor/
                      > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                      > > inventor/>
                      > > >
                      > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
                      have
                      > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                      > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                      > > >
                      > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                      > > >
                      > > > Pete
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > > garden shed
                      > > > > (sorry to go on)
                      > > > > Dick
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                      forgotten
                      > > > because
                      > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                      > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                      > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                      speculation
                      > > as to
                      > > > > how
                      > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                      Similarly
                      > > how
                      > > > > were
                      > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                      > > > > > Dick
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Richard Mundy
                      Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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                        Hi Donald,

                        I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
                        the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
                        of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
                        I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                        development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
                        think of my limited workshop and budget!

                        Dick





                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                        <silent1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Richard Mundy wrote:
                        > > Hi Pete,
                        > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                        > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                        > > about it!
                        >
                        > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                        > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
                        actually
                        > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                        > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                        > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
                        the
                        > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
                        I'd
                        > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
                        thousand
                        > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
                        >
                        > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                        you
                        > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                        relevant!
                        >
                        > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                        > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
                        however,
                        > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
                        and
                        > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
                        Newcomen
                        > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
                        reasonably
                        > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                        > point of water).
                        >
                        > --
                        > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                        want,
                        > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                        >
                        > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                        http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                        >
                        > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                        > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                        >
                      • Pete B.
                        Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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                          Hi Dick,

                          Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
                          Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
                          was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
                          with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
                          Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
                          St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
                          Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

                          Pete


                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          <coracles18@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Frank,
                          > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
                          most
                          > things are.
                          >
                          > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
                          >
                          > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                          > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
                          >
                          > Dick
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                          > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                          > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                          > >
                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Pete,
                          > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
                          I
                          > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
                          anything
                          > > > about it!
                          > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                          > that
                          > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                          > you
                          > > > saw it here first :)
                          > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                          > Because
                          > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                          > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                          > you
                          > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                          > relevant!
                          > > >
                          > > > Dick
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
                          <georgeyyy@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dick,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
                          Radarange
                          > at a
                          > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                          > plate.
                          > > > I
                          > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
                          as
                          > a 4
                          > > > or 5
                          > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
                          were
                          > in
                          > > > the
                          > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                          > might
                          > > > have
                          > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                          > Radarange
                          > > > and
                          > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                          > thought of
                          > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                          > mind
                          > > > had
                          > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
                          or
                          > able
                          > > > to
                          > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                          > those
                          > > > > inovators.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                          > Us
                          > > > from
                          > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
                          show
                          > a
                          > > > hand
                          > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                          > > > >
                          <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                          > patent on
                          > > > a
                          > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                          > inventor/
                          > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                          > > > inventor/>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
                          now
                          > have
                          > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                          > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Pete
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
                          out
                          > of
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > garden shed
                          > > > > > (sorry to go on)
                          > > > > > Dick
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                          > forgotten
                          > > > > because
                          > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                          > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                          > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                          > speculation
                          > > > as to
                          > > > > > how
                          > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                          > Similarly
                          > > > how
                          > > > > > were
                          > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                          > > > > > > Dick
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • David Halfpenny
                          ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
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                            --------------------------------------------------
                            From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                            Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

                            > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                            > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

                            The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                            - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                            masses etc
                            - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                            air (like compressed air or other gases)

                            The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                            it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                            the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                            around with the losses.

                            Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                            would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

                            David 1/2d
                          • Pete B.
                            Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
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                              Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                              Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                              Pete


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --------------------------------------------------
                              > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                              > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                              >
                              > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                              > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                              >
                              > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                              > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                              > masses etc
                              > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                              > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                              >
                              > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                              > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                              > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                              > around with the losses.
                              >
                              > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                              > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                              >
                              > David 1/2d
                              >

                            • Richard Mundy
                              Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                                Hi David,
                                I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                                time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                                way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                                pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                                pressure steam.
                                I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                                fun trying.
                                Dick

                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                <dh1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------
                                > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                >
                                > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                >
                                > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                clearances
                                > masses etc
                                > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                atmospheric
                                > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                >
                                > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                                since
                                > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                soon as
                                > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                messing
                                > around with the losses.
                                >
                                > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                engine
                                > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                >
                                > David 1/2d
                                >
                              • Richard Mundy
                                Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                                  Hi Pete,
                                  thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                                  This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                                  experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                                  I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                                  established pop pop designs.
                                  Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                                  Dick

                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                                  >
                                  > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                                  of
                                  > your own.
                                  >
                                  > Pete
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                                  > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                  > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                  > >
                                  > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                  > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                  > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                  clearances
                                  > > masses etc
                                  > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                  > atmospheric
                                  > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                  > >
                                  > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                                  volume
                                  > since
                                  > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                  soon
                                  > as
                                  > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                  messing
                                  > > around with the losses.
                                  > >
                                  > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                  engine
                                  > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                  > >
                                  > > David 1/2d
                                  > >
                                  >
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