Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

Expand Messages
  • Richard Mundy
    Hi Frank, I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos, Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with the candle can up the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Frank,
      I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos,
      Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with
      the candle can up the performance.
      Dick


      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dick,
      >
      > There have been a few modest improvements of jet boats.
      > Go to <http://tinyurl.com/a6c5zt> for an example.
      >
      > Frank
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Frank,
      > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
      > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
      made
      > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
      > > improve efficiency?
      > > Dick
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Dick,
      > > >
      > > > Click on <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTnm7MRqsU> for video
      of
      > > the
      > > > first jet powered boat. Actually it was an intermittent jet boat
      > > > similar in some ways to pop-pop boats.
      > > >
      > > > old Frank
      > > >
      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Frank,
      > > > > thanks for the reply and the link, I am well aware of the
      poor
      > > > > efficiency of the pop pop etc and the likelyhood of
      > > disapointment. I
      > > > > never travel without a paddle and this does look like a
      > > particularly
      > > > > interesting creek. It appeals appeals to my tinkering nature
      and
      > > the
      > > > > cost in time & plumbing per engine is comparitively low.
      > > > > The group has opened my eyes to huge range of possibilities
      for
      > > > > experimentation,
      > > > > I will post any results for all to jeer at, at the moment I
      am
      > > still
      > > > > exploring the fine print as to how the things actually work,
      > > there
      > > > > are a lot of factors I hadn't previously considered,
      > > > > Dick
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      > > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Dick,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Welcome to the group.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Go to <http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/#payne> for
      > > information
      > > > > > about the use of pop-pop engines in full-sized boats. For
      in-
      > > between
      > > > > > sized boats, go to our Photos section to check out the
      albums,
      > > dory
      > > > > > pop pop By: danoyes1, Large pop-pop boats By:
      jeanyves_renaud
      > > and
      > > > > putt
      > > > > > putts By: darylcanada73 which indicate the possibility for
      > > using
      > > > > large
      > > > > > or multiple coil type engines to propel a dory, skiff or
      canoe.
      > > > > Don't
      > > > > > go too far up that infamous creek without a paddle though!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi all,
      > > > > > > Just joined this group, some years ago I made several
      engines
      > > of
      > > > > > > varous types and mounted them in cut down cans (I had not
      the
      > > > > > > patience to build the hulls) all worked, but the most fun
      was
      > > > > large
      > > > > > > and made of welded steel. This I powered by a gas
      blowlamp
      > > and
      > > > > > > mounted in a square biscuit tin. Performace was very poor
      but
      > > it
      > > > > > > galumphed around my bath in a very satisfying manner.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I am totally amazed by some of the boats and engines in
      the
      > > group
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > am inspired to carry on experimenting. My ultimate
      objective
      > > > > would be
      > > > > > > to power a canoe but I guess might not be practical!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I live in Essex in the UK.
      > > > > > > Dick
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
      > > <georgeyyy@>
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Good morning & Happy New Year!
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Welcome... members new and established.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I hope that you find/continue to find our group both
      > > > > interesting and
      > > > > > > > informative. Experience and knowledge runs from
      beginners to
      > > > > > > > "professionals".
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Please write a little something about yourself, your
      > > interests
      > > > > and
      > > > > > > post
      > > > > > > > on our message board.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > P.R.Baker
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Richard Mundy
      Hi Donald, The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I can play around with them without a machine shop. I don t mind adding a valve
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Donald,
        The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I
        can play around with them without a machine shop. I don't mind adding
        a valve or two tho.
        The Newcomen or atmospheric engine evolved into the Watt, and was
        never seen again as it was so innefficient.
        Interestingly now you point it out, there seems to be a similarity
        between the Newcomen and the pop pop - both rely on condensing steam
        to create a vacuum.
        Dick


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
        <silent1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Richard Mundy wrote:
        > > Hi Frank,
        > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
        > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
        made
        > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
        > > improve efficiency?
        > > Dick
        >
        > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam
        to
        > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common
        in
        > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
        Rumsley
        > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
        > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
        engine)
        > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
        (s) and
        > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
        increase
        > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
        the
        > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
        rudder,
        > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
        nozzle
        > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
        > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
        propulsion
        > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
        similarly
        > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
        still
        > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
        > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
        line...
        >
        > --
        > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
        want,
        > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
        >
        > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
        http://silent1.home.netcom.com
        >
        > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
        > and don't expect them to be perfect.
        >
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Pete, thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate promise at the
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Pete,
          thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
          many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
          promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
          interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
          Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
          Dick


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The
          engine
          > draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam
          > through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a
          Rumsey
          > Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is
          caused by
          > the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the
          keel
          > tube.
          >
          > Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good
          > frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their
          boat
          > from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I
          was in
          > "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on
          a
          > good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up
          somewhere
          > around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for
          > Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife
          and I
          > did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In
          the
          > "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!
          >
          > A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of
          people.
          > I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of
          each
          > other this year.
          >
          > Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder.
          > http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/
          > <http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/>
          >
          > Enjoy,
          >
          > Pete
          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Richard Mundy wrote:
          > > > Hi Frank,
          > > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica,
          I
          > > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
          made
          > > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
          > > > improve efficiency?
          > > > Dick
          > >
          > > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using
          steam to
          > > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now
          common in
          > > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
          Rumsley
          > > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
          > > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
          engine)
          > > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
          (s)
          > and
          > > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
          > increase
          > > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
          the
          > > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
          rudder,
          > > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
          nozzle
          > > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be
          strongly
          > > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
          > propulsion
          > > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
          > similarly
          > > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
          still
          > > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very
          shallow
          > > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
          > line...
          > >
          > > --
          > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
          want,
          > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
          > >
          > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
          http://silent1.home.netcom.com
          > >
          > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
          > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
          > >
          >
        • wdsmith
          Hoo BOY!!!! You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!! I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hoo BOY!!!!
            You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!!
            " I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
            promise at the time and something better turned up."

            I am stunned so few realize (or realize and dismiss) that technology evolved via the technology of the day.
            So, realizing this, a few things should be obvious:

            1.  "Tried it long ago and it didn't work," is not necessarily a valid thought.
                 One or two critical developments and technological evolution could have took a different direction.
            2.  Automatic dismissal based on 100 year old (anymore it may be closer to 100 days old) considerations is not a good idea.

            Of course all generalities are false, including this one.  It is probably OK to skip over the latest perpetual motion machine....
            bit, personally, I stil look close for any new ideas it may spark.  ;o)




            Richard Mundy wrote:

            Hi Pete,
            thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
            many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
            promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
            interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
            Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
            Dick


          • Richard Mundy
            I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because it is no longer relevant. An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England. It is known
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
              it is no longer relevant.
              An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
              It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to how
              they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how were
              the pyramids or stonehenge built?
              Dick
            • Richard Mundy
              I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the garden shed (sorry to go on) Dick ... how ... were
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                garden shed
                (sorry to go on)
                Dick




                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                <coracles18@...> wrote:
                >
                > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                > it is no longer relevant.
                > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                how
                > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                were
                > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                > Dick
                >
              • Pete B.
                Dick, I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
                • 0 Attachment

                  Dick,

                  I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4 or 5 year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in the aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might have been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange and how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind had tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able to convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those inovators.

                  On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us from France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a hand pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.

                  http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html 

                  For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on a boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.

                  http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/ 

                  Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have Buehler Turbocraft boats

                  http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465

                  and the jet skis. That's it...

                  Pete

                   

                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                  > garden shed
                  > (sorry to go on)
                  > Dick
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  > coracles18@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                  > > it is no longer relevant.
                  > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                  > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                  > how
                  > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                  > were
                  > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                  > > Dick
                  > >
                  >

                • Richard Mundy
                  Hi Pete, how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything about it! A couple
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Pete,
                    how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                    thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                    about it!
                    A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                    pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                    saw it here first :)
                    I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                    of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                    The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                    power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                    Dick


                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Dick,
                    >
                    > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                    > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                    I
                    > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                    or 5
                    > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                    the
                    > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                    have
                    > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                    and
                    > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                    > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                    had
                    > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                    to
                    > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                    > inovators.
                    >
                    > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                    from
                    > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                    hand
                    > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                    >
                    > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                    > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                    >
                    > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                    a
                    > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                    >
                    > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                    > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                    inventor/>
                    >
                    > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                    > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                    >
                    > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                    > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                    >
                    > and the jet skis. That's it...
                    >
                    > Pete
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    > <coracles18@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                    the
                    > > garden shed
                    > > (sorry to go on)
                    > > Dick
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    > > coracles18@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                    > because
                    > > > it is no longer relevant.
                    > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                    > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                    as to
                    > > how
                    > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                    how
                    > > were
                    > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                    > > > Dick
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Frank McNeill
                    Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a better way to let dogs pull you around.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                      better way to let dogs pull you around.

                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      <coracles18@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Pete,
                      > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                      > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                      > about it!
                      > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                      > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                      > saw it here first :)
                      > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                      > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                      > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                      > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!
                      >
                      > Dick
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dick,
                      > >
                      > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                      > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                      > I
                      > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                      > or 5
                      > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                      > the
                      > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                      > have
                      > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                      > and
                      > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                      > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                      > had
                      > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                      > to
                      > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                      > > inovators.
                      > >
                      > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                      > from
                      > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                      > hand
                      > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                      > >
                      > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                      > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                      > >
                      > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                      > a
                      > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                      > >
                      > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                      > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                      > inventor/>
                      > >
                      > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                      > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                      > >
                      > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                      > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                      > >
                      > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                      > >
                      > > Pete
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                      > the
                      > > > garden shed
                      > > > (sorry to go on)
                      > > > Dick
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                      > > because
                      > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                      > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                      > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                      > as to
                      > > > how
                      > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                      > how
                      > > > were
                      > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                      > > > > Dick
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Donald Qualls
                      ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Richard Mundy wrote:
                        > Hi Pete,
                        > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                        > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                        > about it!

                        I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                        watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
                        start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                        self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                        electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
                        laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
                        have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
                        (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

                        > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                        > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                        Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                        density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
                        applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
                        a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
                        steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
                        well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                        point of water).

                        --
                        If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                        it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                        Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                        Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                        and don't expect them to be perfect.
                      • Richard Mundy
                        Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Frank,
                          not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
                          things are.

                          http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

                          Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                          the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

                          Dick


                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                          <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                          > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > <coracles18@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Pete,
                          > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                          > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                          > > about it!
                          > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                          that
                          > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                          you
                          > > saw it here first :)
                          > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                          Because
                          > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                          > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                          you
                          > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                          relevant!
                          > >
                          > > Dick
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Dick,
                          > > >
                          > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
                          at a
                          > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                          plate.
                          > > I
                          > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
                          a 4
                          > > or 5
                          > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
                          in
                          > > the
                          > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                          might
                          > > have
                          > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                          Radarange
                          > > and
                          > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                          thought of
                          > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                          mind
                          > > had
                          > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
                          able
                          > > to
                          > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                          those
                          > > > inovators.
                          > > >
                          > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                          Us
                          > > from
                          > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
                          a
                          > > hand
                          > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                          > > >
                          > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                          > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                          > > >
                          > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                          patent on
                          > > a
                          > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                          > > >
                          > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                          inventor/
                          > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                          > > inventor/>
                          > > >
                          > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
                          have
                          > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                          > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                          > > >
                          > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                          > > >
                          > > > Pete
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
                          of
                          > > the
                          > > > > garden shed
                          > > > > (sorry to go on)
                          > > > > Dick
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                          forgotten
                          > > > because
                          > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                          > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                          > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                          speculation
                          > > as to
                          > > > > how
                          > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                          Similarly
                          > > how
                          > > > > were
                          > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                          > > > > > Dick
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Donald,

                            I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
                            the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
                            of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
                            I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                            development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
                            think of my limited workshop and budget!

                            Dick





                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                            <silent1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Richard Mundy wrote:
                            > > Hi Pete,
                            > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                            > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                            > > about it!
                            >
                            > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                            > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
                            actually
                            > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                            > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                            > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
                            the
                            > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
                            I'd
                            > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
                            thousand
                            > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
                            >
                            > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                            you
                            > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                            relevant!
                            >
                            > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                            > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
                            however,
                            > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
                            and
                            > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
                            Newcomen
                            > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
                            reasonably
                            > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                            > point of water).
                            >
                            > --
                            > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                            want,
                            > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                            >
                            > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                            http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                            >
                            > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                            > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                            >
                          • Pete B.
                            Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Dick,

                              Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
                              Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
                              was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
                              with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
                              Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
                              St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
                              Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

                              Pete


                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              <coracles18@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Frank,
                              > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
                              most
                              > things are.
                              >
                              > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
                              >
                              > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                              > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
                              >
                              > Dick
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                              > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                              > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Pete,
                              > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
                              I
                              > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
                              anything
                              > > > about it!
                              > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                              > that
                              > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                              > you
                              > > > saw it here first :)
                              > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                              > Because
                              > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                              > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                              > you
                              > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                              > relevant!
                              > > >
                              > > > Dick
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
                              <georgeyyy@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dick,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
                              Radarange
                              > at a
                              > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                              > plate.
                              > > > I
                              > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
                              as
                              > a 4
                              > > > or 5
                              > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
                              were
                              > in
                              > > > the
                              > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                              > might
                              > > > have
                              > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                              > Radarange
                              > > > and
                              > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                              > thought of
                              > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                              > mind
                              > > > had
                              > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
                              or
                              > able
                              > > > to
                              > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                              > those
                              > > > > inovators.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                              > Us
                              > > > from
                              > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
                              show
                              > a
                              > > > hand
                              > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                              > > > >
                              <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                              > > > >
                              > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                              > patent on
                              > > > a
                              > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                              > inventor/
                              > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                              > > > inventor/>
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
                              now
                              > have
                              > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                              > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                              > > > >
                              > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Pete
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
                              out
                              > of
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > garden shed
                              > > > > > (sorry to go on)
                              > > > > > Dick
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                              > forgotten
                              > > > > because
                              > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                              > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                              > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                              > speculation
                              > > > as to
                              > > > > > how
                              > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                              > Similarly
                              > > > how
                              > > > > > were
                              > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                              > > > > > > Dick
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • David Halfpenny
                              ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --------------------------------------------------
                                From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

                                > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

                                The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                masses etc
                                - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                air (like compressed air or other gases)

                                The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                around with the losses.

                                Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

                                David 1/2d
                              • Pete B.
                                Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                                  Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                                  Pete


                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------
                                  > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                                  > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                  >
                                  > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                  > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                  >
                                  > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                  > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                  > masses etc
                                  > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                  > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                  >
                                  > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                  > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                  > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                  > around with the losses.
                                  >
                                  > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                  > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                  >
                                  > David 1/2d
                                  >

                                • Richard Mundy
                                  Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi David,
                                    I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                                    time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                                    way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                                    pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                                    pressure steam.
                                    I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                                    fun trying.
                                    Dick

                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                    <dh1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                    > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                    >
                                    > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                    > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                    >
                                    > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                    > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                    clearances
                                    > masses etc
                                    > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                    atmospheric
                                    > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                    >
                                    > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                                    since
                                    > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                    soon as
                                    > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                    messing
                                    > around with the losses.
                                    >
                                    > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                    engine
                                    > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                    >
                                    > David 1/2d
                                    >
                                  • Richard Mundy
                                    Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Pete,
                                      thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                                      This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                                      experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                                      I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                                      established pop pop designs.
                                      Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                                      Dick

                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                                      >
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                                      >
                                      > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                                      of
                                      > your own.
                                      >
                                      > Pete
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --------------------------------------------------
                                      > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                      > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                      > >
                                      > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                      > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                      > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                      clearances
                                      > > masses etc
                                      > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                      > atmospheric
                                      > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                      > >
                                      > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                                      volume
                                      > since
                                      > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                      soon
                                      > as
                                      > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                      messing
                                      > > around with the losses.
                                      > >
                                      > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                      engine
                                      > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                      > >
                                      > > David 1/2d
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.