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Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Pete B.
    The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The engine draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam through a transom
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 3, 2009

      The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The engine draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a Rumsey Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is caused by the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the keel tube.

      Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their boat from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I was in "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on a good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up somewhere around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife and I did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In the "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!

      A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of people. I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of each other this year.

      Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder. http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/

      Enjoy,

      Pete

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Richard Mundy wrote:
      > > Hi Frank,
      > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
      > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was made
      > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
      > > improve efficiency?
      > > Dick
      >
      > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam to
      > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common in
      > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original Rumsley
      > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
      > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type engine)
      > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder(s) and
      > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to increase
      > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along the
      > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the rudder,
      > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled nozzle
      > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
      > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final propulsion
      > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a similarly
      > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and still
      > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
      > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water line...
      >
      > --
      > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
      > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
      >
      > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
      >
      > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
      > and don't expect them to be perfect.
      >

    • Richard Mundy
      Hi Frank, I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos, Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with the candle can up the
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
        Hi Frank,
        I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos,
        Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with
        the candle can up the performance.
        Dick


        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Dick,
        >
        > There have been a few modest improvements of jet boats.
        > Go to <http://tinyurl.com/a6c5zt> for an example.
        >
        > Frank
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Frank,
        > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
        > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
        made
        > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
        > > improve efficiency?
        > > Dick
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Dick,
        > > >
        > > > Click on <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTnm7MRqsU> for video
        of
        > > the
        > > > first jet powered boat. Actually it was an intermittent jet boat
        > > > similar in some ways to pop-pop boats.
        > > >
        > > > old Frank
        > > >
        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > > thanks for the reply and the link, I am well aware of the
        poor
        > > > > efficiency of the pop pop etc and the likelyhood of
        > > disapointment. I
        > > > > never travel without a paddle and this does look like a
        > > particularly
        > > > > interesting creek. It appeals appeals to my tinkering nature
        and
        > > the
        > > > > cost in time & plumbing per engine is comparitively low.
        > > > > The group has opened my eyes to huge range of possibilities
        for
        > > > > experimentation,
        > > > > I will post any results for all to jeer at, at the moment I
        am
        > > still
        > > > > exploring the fine print as to how the things actually work,
        > > there
        > > > > are a lot of factors I hadn't previously considered,
        > > > > Dick
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Dick,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Welcome to the group.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Go to <http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/#payne> for
        > > information
        > > > > > about the use of pop-pop engines in full-sized boats. For
        in-
        > > between
        > > > > > sized boats, go to our Photos section to check out the
        albums,
        > > dory
        > > > > > pop pop By: danoyes1, Large pop-pop boats By:
        jeanyves_renaud
        > > and
        > > > > putt
        > > > > > putts By: darylcanada73 which indicate the possibility for
        > > using
        > > > > large
        > > > > > or multiple coil type engines to propel a dory, skiff or
        canoe.
        > > > > Don't
        > > > > > go too far up that infamous creek without a paddle though!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi all,
        > > > > > > Just joined this group, some years ago I made several
        engines
        > > of
        > > > > > > varous types and mounted them in cut down cans (I had not
        the
        > > > > > > patience to build the hulls) all worked, but the most fun
        was
        > > > > large
        > > > > > > and made of welded steel. This I powered by a gas
        blowlamp
        > > and
        > > > > > > mounted in a square biscuit tin. Performace was very poor
        but
        > > it
        > > > > > > galumphed around my bath in a very satisfying manner.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I am totally amazed by some of the boats and engines in
        the
        > > group
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > am inspired to carry on experimenting. My ultimate
        objective
        > > > > would be
        > > > > > > to power a canoe but I guess might not be practical!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I live in Essex in the UK.
        > > > > > > Dick
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
        > > <georgeyyy@>
        > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Good morning & Happy New Year!
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Welcome... members new and established.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I hope that you find/continue to find our group both
        > > > > interesting and
        > > > > > > > informative. Experience and knowledge runs from
        beginners to
        > > > > > > > "professionals".
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Please write a little something about yourself, your
        > > interests
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > post
        > > > > > > > on our message board.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > P.R.Baker
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Richard Mundy
        Hi Donald, The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I can play around with them without a machine shop. I don t mind adding a valve
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
          Hi Donald,
          The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I
          can play around with them without a machine shop. I don't mind adding
          a valve or two tho.
          The Newcomen or atmospheric engine evolved into the Watt, and was
          never seen again as it was so innefficient.
          Interestingly now you point it out, there seems to be a similarity
          between the Newcomen and the pop pop - both rely on condensing steam
          to create a vacuum.
          Dick


          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
          <silent1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Richard Mundy wrote:
          > > Hi Frank,
          > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
          > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
          made
          > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
          > > improve efficiency?
          > > Dick
          >
          > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam
          to
          > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common
          in
          > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
          Rumsley
          > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
          > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
          engine)
          > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
          (s) and
          > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
          increase
          > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
          the
          > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
          rudder,
          > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
          nozzle
          > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
          > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
          propulsion
          > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
          similarly
          > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
          still
          > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
          > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
          line...
          >
          > --
          > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
          want,
          > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
          >
          > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
          http://silent1.home.netcom.com
          >
          > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
          > and don't expect them to be perfect.
          >
        • Richard Mundy
          Hi Pete, thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate promise at the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
            Hi Pete,
            thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
            many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
            promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
            interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
            Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
            Dick


            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The
            engine
            > draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam
            > through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a
            Rumsey
            > Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is
            caused by
            > the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the
            keel
            > tube.
            >
            > Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good
            > frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their
            boat
            > from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I
            was in
            > "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on
            a
            > good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up
            somewhere
            > around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for
            > Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife
            and I
            > did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In
            the
            > "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!
            >
            > A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of
            people.
            > I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of
            each
            > other this year.
            >
            > Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder.
            > http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/
            > <http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/>
            >
            > Enjoy,
            >
            > Pete
            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Richard Mundy wrote:
            > > > Hi Frank,
            > > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica,
            I
            > > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
            made
            > > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
            > > > improve efficiency?
            > > > Dick
            > >
            > > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using
            steam to
            > > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now
            common in
            > > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
            Rumsley
            > > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
            > > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
            engine)
            > > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
            (s)
            > and
            > > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
            > increase
            > > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
            the
            > > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
            rudder,
            > > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
            nozzle
            > > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be
            strongly
            > > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
            > propulsion
            > > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
            > similarly
            > > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
            still
            > > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very
            shallow
            > > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
            > line...
            > >
            > > --
            > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
            want,
            > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
            > >
            > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
            http://silent1.home.netcom.com
            > >
            > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
            > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
            > >
            >
          • wdsmith
            Hoo BOY!!!! You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!! I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
              Hoo BOY!!!!
              You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!!
              " I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
              promise at the time and something better turned up."

              I am stunned so few realize (or realize and dismiss) that technology evolved via the technology of the day.
              So, realizing this, a few things should be obvious:

              1.  "Tried it long ago and it didn't work," is not necessarily a valid thought.
                   One or two critical developments and technological evolution could have took a different direction.
              2.  Automatic dismissal based on 100 year old (anymore it may be closer to 100 days old) considerations is not a good idea.

              Of course all generalities are false, including this one.  It is probably OK to skip over the latest perpetual motion machine....
              bit, personally, I stil look close for any new ideas it may spark.  ;o)




              Richard Mundy wrote:

              Hi Pete,
              thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
              many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
              promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
              interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
              Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
              Dick


            • Richard Mundy
              I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because it is no longer relevant. An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England. It is known
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
                I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                it is no longer relevant.
                An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to how
                they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how were
                the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                Dick
              • Richard Mundy
                I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the garden shed (sorry to go on) Dick ... how ... were
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
                  I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                  garden shed
                  (sorry to go on)
                  Dick




                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                  <coracles18@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                  > it is no longer relevant.
                  > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                  > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                  how
                  > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                  were
                  > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                  > Dick
                  >
                • Pete B.
                  Dick, I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009

                    Dick,

                    I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4 or 5 year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in the aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might have been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange and how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind had tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able to convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those inovators.

                    On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us from France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a hand pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.

                    http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html 

                    For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on a boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.

                    http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/ 

                    Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have Buehler Turbocraft boats

                    http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465

                    and the jet skis. That's it...

                    Pete

                     

                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                    > garden shed
                    > (sorry to go on)
                    > Dick
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                    > coracles18@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                    > > it is no longer relevant.
                    > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                    > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                    > how
                    > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                    > were
                    > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                    > > Dick
                    > >
                    >

                  • Richard Mundy
                    Hi Pete, how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything about it! A couple
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                      Hi Pete,
                      how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                      thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                      about it!
                      A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                      pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                      saw it here first :)
                      I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                      of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                      The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                      power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                      Dick


                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Dick,
                      >
                      > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                      > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                      I
                      > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                      or 5
                      > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                      the
                      > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                      have
                      > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                      and
                      > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                      > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                      had
                      > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                      to
                      > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                      > inovators.
                      >
                      > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                      from
                      > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                      hand
                      > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                      >
                      > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                      > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                      >
                      > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                      a
                      > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                      >
                      > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                      > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                      inventor/>
                      >
                      > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                      > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                      >
                      > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                      > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                      >
                      > and the jet skis. That's it...
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > <coracles18@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                      the
                      > > garden shed
                      > > (sorry to go on)
                      > > Dick
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                      > > coracles18@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                      > because
                      > > > it is no longer relevant.
                      > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                      > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                      as to
                      > > how
                      > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                      how
                      > > were
                      > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                      > > > Dick
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Frank McNeill
                      Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a better way to let dogs pull you around.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                        Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                        better way to let dogs pull you around.

                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        <coracles18@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Pete,
                        > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                        > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                        > about it!
                        > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                        > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                        > saw it here first :)
                        > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                        > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                        > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                        > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!
                        >
                        > Dick
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dick,
                        > >
                        > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                        > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                        > I
                        > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                        > or 5
                        > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                        > the
                        > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                        > have
                        > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                        > and
                        > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                        > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                        > had
                        > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                        > to
                        > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                        > > inovators.
                        > >
                        > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                        > from
                        > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                        > hand
                        > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                        > >
                        > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                        > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                        > >
                        > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                        > a
                        > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                        > >
                        > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                        > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                        > inventor/>
                        > >
                        > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                        > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                        > >
                        > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                        > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                        > >
                        > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                        > >
                        > > Pete
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                        > the
                        > > > garden shed
                        > > > (sorry to go on)
                        > > > Dick
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                        > > because
                        > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                        > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                        > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                        > as to
                        > > > how
                        > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                        > how
                        > > > were
                        > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                        > > > > Dick
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Donald Qualls
                        ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                          Richard Mundy wrote:
                          > Hi Pete,
                          > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                          > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                          > about it!

                          I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                          watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
                          start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                          self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                          electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
                          laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
                          have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
                          (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

                          > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                          > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                          Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                          density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
                          applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
                          a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
                          steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
                          well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                          point of water).

                          --
                          If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                          it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                          Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                          Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                          and don't expect them to be perfect.
                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                            Hi Frank,
                            not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
                            things are.

                            http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

                            Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                            the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

                            Dick


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                            <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                            > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > <coracles18@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Pete,
                            > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                            > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                            > > about it!
                            > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                            that
                            > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                            you
                            > > saw it here first :)
                            > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                            Because
                            > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                            > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                            you
                            > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                            relevant!
                            > >
                            > > Dick
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dick,
                            > > >
                            > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
                            at a
                            > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                            plate.
                            > > I
                            > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
                            a 4
                            > > or 5
                            > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
                            in
                            > > the
                            > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                            might
                            > > have
                            > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                            Radarange
                            > > and
                            > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                            thought of
                            > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                            mind
                            > > had
                            > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
                            able
                            > > to
                            > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                            those
                            > > > inovators.
                            > > >
                            > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                            Us
                            > > from
                            > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
                            a
                            > > hand
                            > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                            > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                            > > >
                            > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                            patent on
                            > > a
                            > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                            inventor/
                            > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                            > > inventor/>
                            > > >
                            > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
                            have
                            > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                            > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                            > > >
                            > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                            > > >
                            > > > Pete
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
                            of
                            > > the
                            > > > > garden shed
                            > > > > (sorry to go on)
                            > > > > Dick
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                            forgotten
                            > > > because
                            > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                            > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                            > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                            speculation
                            > > as to
                            > > > > how
                            > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                            Similarly
                            > > how
                            > > > > were
                            > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                            > > > > > Dick
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Richard Mundy
                            Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                              Hi Donald,

                              I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
                              the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
                              of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
                              I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                              development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
                              think of my limited workshop and budget!

                              Dick





                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                              <silent1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Richard Mundy wrote:
                              > > Hi Pete,
                              > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                              > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                              > > about it!
                              >
                              > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                              > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
                              actually
                              > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                              > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                              > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
                              the
                              > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
                              I'd
                              > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
                              thousand
                              > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
                              >
                              > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                              you
                              > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                              relevant!
                              >
                              > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                              > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
                              however,
                              > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
                              and
                              > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
                              Newcomen
                              > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
                              reasonably
                              > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                              > point of water).
                              >
                              > --
                              > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                              want,
                              > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                              >
                              > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                              http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                              >
                              > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                              > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                              >
                            • Pete B.
                              Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                Hi Dick,

                                Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
                                Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
                                was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
                                with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
                                Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
                                St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
                                Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

                                Pete


                                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Frank,
                                > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
                                most
                                > things are.
                                >
                                > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
                                >
                                > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                                > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
                                >
                                > Dick
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                                > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                                > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                                > >
                                > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Pete,
                                > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
                                I
                                > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
                                anything
                                > > > about it!
                                > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                                > that
                                > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                                > you
                                > > > saw it here first :)
                                > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                                > Because
                                > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                                > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                                > you
                                > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                                > relevant!
                                > > >
                                > > > Dick
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
                                <georgeyyy@>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dick,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
                                Radarange
                                > at a
                                > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                                > plate.
                                > > > I
                                > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
                                as
                                > a 4
                                > > > or 5
                                > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
                                were
                                > in
                                > > > the
                                > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                                > might
                                > > > have
                                > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                                > Radarange
                                > > > and
                                > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                                > thought of
                                > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                                > mind
                                > > > had
                                > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
                                or
                                > able
                                > > > to
                                > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                                > those
                                > > > > inovators.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                                > Us
                                > > > from
                                > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
                                show
                                > a
                                > > > hand
                                > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                                > > > >
                                <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                                > > > >
                                > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                                > patent on
                                > > > a
                                > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                > inventor/
                                > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                > > > inventor/>
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
                                now
                                > have
                                > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                                > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                                > > > >
                                > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Pete
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
                                out
                                > of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > garden shed
                                > > > > > (sorry to go on)
                                > > > > > Dick
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                                > forgotten
                                > > > > because
                                > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                                > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                                > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                                > speculation
                                > > > as to
                                > > > > > how
                                > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                                > Similarly
                                > > > how
                                > > > > > were
                                > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                                > > > > > > Dick
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • David Halfpenny
                                ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                  --------------------------------------------------
                                  From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                  Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

                                  > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                  > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

                                  The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                  - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                  masses etc
                                  - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                  air (like compressed air or other gases)

                                  The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                  it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                  the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                  around with the losses.

                                  Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                  would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

                                  David 1/2d
                                • Pete B.
                                  Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009

                                    Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                                    Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                                    Pete


                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --------------------------------------------------
                                    > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                                    > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                    >
                                    > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                    > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                    >
                                    > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                    > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                    > masses etc
                                    > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                    > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                    >
                                    > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                    > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                    > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                    > around with the losses.
                                    >
                                    > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                    > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                    >
                                    > David 1/2d
                                    >

                                  • Richard Mundy
                                    Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
                                      Hi David,
                                      I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                                      time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                                      way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                                      pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                                      pressure steam.
                                      I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                                      fun trying.
                                      Dick

                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                      <dh1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --------------------------------------------------
                                      > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                      > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                      >
                                      > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                      > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                      >
                                      > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                      > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                      clearances
                                      > masses etc
                                      > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                      atmospheric
                                      > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                      >
                                      > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                                      since
                                      > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                      soon as
                                      > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                      messing
                                      > around with the losses.
                                      >
                                      > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                      engine
                                      > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                      >
                                      > David 1/2d
                                      >
                                    • Richard Mundy
                                      Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
                                        Hi Pete,
                                        thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                                        This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                                        experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                                        I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                                        established pop pop designs.
                                        Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                                        Dick

                                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                                        >
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                                        >
                                        > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                                        of
                                        > your own.
                                        >
                                        > Pete
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --------------------------------------------------
                                        > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                        > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                        > >
                                        > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                        > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                        > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                        clearances
                                        > > masses etc
                                        > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                        > atmospheric
                                        > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                        > >
                                        > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                                        volume
                                        > since
                                        > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                        soon
                                        > as
                                        > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                        messing
                                        > > around with the losses.
                                        > >
                                        > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                        engine
                                        > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                        > >
                                        > > David 1/2d
                                        > >
                                        >
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