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Re: Pop-Pop Steamboats membership

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  • Richard Mundy
    Hi Jean-Yves, This is a very interesting site. I have yet to digest all of it! The big pop pops are very impressive, but as you say the performance compared to
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 3, 2009
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      Hi Jean-Yves,
      This is a very interesting site. I have yet to digest all of it!
      The big pop pops are very impressive, but as you say the performance
      compared to the amound energy being used (blow torch) is pathetic. I
      have thought of using a two pipe system with one pipe facing forward
      with check valves but I guess someone has already tried that!
      Another thought, was the temperature rise of the water in the bath
      noted?
      Please ignore my ignorance,
      Dick

      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Yves Renaud"
      <boite.de.j-y@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dick,
      > The efficiency of the pop-pop engine is not only poor, it is
      > pathetic. And there are other reasons why powering a manned boat is
      > not reallistic. Look at the following site:
      > http://www.eclecticspace.net/index2.php?rub=poppop.
      > However, I'm working on a big engine (pipe inner diameter
      60mm)...but
      > it is for scientific aspect because low frequency allow to observe
      > more easily pressure, temperature, stroke...
      > Good luck!
      > Jean-Yves
      >
      >
      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Frank,
      > > thanks for the reply and the link, I am well aware of the poor
      > > efficiency of the pop pop etc and the likelyhood of
      disapointment.
      > I
      > > never travel without a paddle and this does look like a
      > particularly
      > > interesting creek. It appeals appeals to my tinkering nature and
      > the
      > > cost in time & plumbing per engine is comparitively low.
      > > The group has opened my eyes to huge range of possibilities for
      > > experimentation,
      > > I will post any results for all to jeer at, at the moment I am
      > still
      > > exploring the fine print as to how the things actually work,
      there
      > > are a lot of factors I hadn't previously considered,
      > > Dick
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
      > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Dick,
      > > >
      > > > Welcome to the group.
      > > >
      > > > Go to <http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/#payne> for
      information
      > > > about the use of pop-pop engines in full-sized boats. For in-
      > between
      > > > sized boats, go to our Photos section to check out the albums,
      > dory
      > > > pop pop By: danoyes1, Large pop-pop boats By: jeanyves_renaud
      and
      > > putt
      > > > putts By: darylcanada73 which indicate the possibility for
      using
      > > large
      > > > or multiple coil type engines to propel a dory, skiff or canoe.
      > > Don't
      > > > go too far up that infamous creek without a paddle though!
      > > >
      > > > Best wishes, Frank
      > > >
      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
      > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi all,
      > > > > Just joined this group, some years ago I made several engines
      > of
      > > > > varous types and mounted them in cut down cans (I had not the
      > > > > patience to build the hulls) all worked, but the most fun was
      > > large
      > > > > and made of welded steel. This I powered by a gas blowlamp
      and
      > > > > mounted in a square biscuit tin. Performace was very poor but
      > it
      > > > > galumphed around my bath in a very satisfying manner.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am totally amazed by some of the boats and engines in the
      > group
      > > and
      > > > > am inspired to carry on experimenting. My ultimate objective
      > > would be
      > > > > to power a canoe but I guess might not be practical!
      > > > >
      > > > > I live in Essex in the UK.
      > > > > Dick
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
      > <georgeyyy@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Good morning & Happy New Year!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Welcome... members new and established.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I hope that you find/continue to find our group both
      > > interesting and
      > > > > > informative. Experience and knowledge runs from beginners to
      > > > > > "professionals".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Please write a little something about yourself, your
      > interests
      > > and
      > > > > post
      > > > > > on our message board.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > P.R.Baker
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Frank McNeill
      Hi Dick, There have been a few modest improvements of jet boats. Go to for an example. Frank
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 3, 2009
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        Hi Dick,

        There have been a few modest improvements of jet boats.
        Go to <http://tinyurl.com/a6c5zt> for an example.

        Frank
        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        <coracles18@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Frank,
        > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
        > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was made
        > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
        > improve efficiency?
        > Dick
        >
        >
        > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Dick,
        > >
        > > Click on <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTnm7MRqsU> for video of
        > the
        > > first jet powered boat. Actually it was an intermittent jet boat
        > > similar in some ways to pop-pop boats.
        > >
        > > old Frank
        > >
        > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Frank,
        > > > thanks for the reply and the link, I am well aware of the poor
        > > > efficiency of the pop pop etc and the likelyhood of
        > disapointment. I
        > > > never travel without a paddle and this does look like a
        > particularly
        > > > interesting creek. It appeals appeals to my tinkering nature and
        > the
        > > > cost in time & plumbing per engine is comparitively low.
        > > > The group has opened my eyes to huge range of possibilities for
        > > > experimentation,
        > > > I will post any results for all to jeer at, at the moment I am
        > still
        > > > exploring the fine print as to how the things actually work,
        > there
        > > > are a lot of factors I hadn't previously considered,
        > > > Dick
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
        > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Dick,
        > > > >
        > > > > Welcome to the group.
        > > > >
        > > > > Go to <http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/#payne> for
        > information
        > > > > about the use of pop-pop engines in full-sized boats. For in-
        > between
        > > > > sized boats, go to our Photos section to check out the albums,
        > dory
        > > > > pop pop By: danoyes1, Large pop-pop boats By: jeanyves_renaud
        > and
        > > > putt
        > > > > putts By: darylcanada73 which indicate the possibility for
        > using
        > > > large
        > > > > or multiple coil type engines to propel a dory, skiff or canoe.
        > > > Don't
        > > > > go too far up that infamous creek without a paddle though!
        > > > >
        > > > > Best wishes, Frank
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
        > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi all,
        > > > > > Just joined this group, some years ago I made several engines
        > of
        > > > > > varous types and mounted them in cut down cans (I had not the
        > > > > > patience to build the hulls) all worked, but the most fun was
        > > > large
        > > > > > and made of welded steel. This I powered by a gas blowlamp
        > and
        > > > > > mounted in a square biscuit tin. Performace was very poor but
        > it
        > > > > > galumphed around my bath in a very satisfying manner.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am totally amazed by some of the boats and engines in the
        > group
        > > > and
        > > > > > am inspired to carry on experimenting. My ultimate objective
        > > > would be
        > > > > > to power a canoe but I guess might not be practical!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I live in Essex in the UK.
        > > > > > Dick
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
        > <georgeyyy@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Good morning & Happy New Year!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Welcome... members new and established.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I hope that you find/continue to find our group both
        > > > interesting and
        > > > > > > informative. Experience and knowledge runs from beginners to
        > > > > > > "professionals".
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Please write a little something about yourself, your
        > interests
        > > > and
        > > > > > post
        > > > > > > on our message board.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > P.R.Baker
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Donald Qualls
        ... Presuming you re not just interested in (for instance) using steam to drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common in jet boats, one
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 3, 2009
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          Richard Mundy wrote:
          > Hi Frank,
          > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
          > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was made
          > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
          > improve efficiency?
          > Dick

          Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam to
          drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common in
          jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original Rumsley
          design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
          atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type engine)
          and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder(s) and
          double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to increase
          the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along the
          keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the rudder,
          to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled nozzle
          (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
          suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final propulsion
          efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a similarly
          designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and still
          have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
          draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water line...

          --
          If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
          it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

          Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

          Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
          and don't expect them to be perfect.
        • Pete B.
          The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The engine draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam through a transom
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 3, 2009
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            The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The engine draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a Rumsey Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is caused by the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the keel tube.

            Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their boat from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I was in "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on a good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up somewhere around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife and I did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In the "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!

            A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of people. I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of each other this year.

            Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder. http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/

            Enjoy,

            Pete

            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Richard Mundy wrote:
            > > Hi Frank,
            > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
            > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was made
            > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
            > > improve efficiency?
            > > Dick
            >
            > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam to
            > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common in
            > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original Rumsley
            > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
            > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type engine)
            > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder(s) and
            > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to increase
            > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along the
            > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the rudder,
            > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled nozzle
            > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
            > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final propulsion
            > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a similarly
            > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and still
            > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
            > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water line...
            >
            > --
            > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
            > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
            >
            > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
            >
            > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
            > and don't expect them to be perfect.
            >

          • Richard Mundy
            Hi Frank, I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos, Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with the candle can up the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
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              Hi Frank,
              I tried this link and got redirected to Google videos,
              Its amazing how swapping aviation fuel for water and doing away with
              the candle can up the performance.
              Dick


              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dick,
              >
              > There have been a few modest improvements of jet boats.
              > Go to <http://tinyurl.com/a6c5zt> for an example.
              >
              > Frank
              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Frank,
              > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
              > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
              made
              > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
              > > improve efficiency?
              > > Dick
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Dick,
              > > >
              > > > Click on <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTnm7MRqsU> for video
              of
              > > the
              > > > first jet powered boat. Actually it was an intermittent jet boat
              > > > similar in some ways to pop-pop boats.
              > > >
              > > > old Frank
              > > >
              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Frank,
              > > > > thanks for the reply and the link, I am well aware of the
              poor
              > > > > efficiency of the pop pop etc and the likelyhood of
              > > disapointment. I
              > > > > never travel without a paddle and this does look like a
              > > particularly
              > > > > interesting creek. It appeals appeals to my tinkering nature
              and
              > > the
              > > > > cost in time & plumbing per engine is comparitively low.
              > > > > The group has opened my eyes to huge range of possibilities
              for
              > > > > experimentation,
              > > > > I will post any results for all to jeer at, at the moment I
              am
              > > still
              > > > > exploring the fine print as to how the things actually work,
              > > there
              > > > > are a lot of factors I hadn't previously considered,
              > > > > Dick
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
              > > > > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hi Dick,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Welcome to the group.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Go to <http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/#payne> for
              > > information
              > > > > > about the use of pop-pop engines in full-sized boats. For
              in-
              > > between
              > > > > > sized boats, go to our Photos section to check out the
              albums,
              > > dory
              > > > > > pop pop By: danoyes1, Large pop-pop boats By:
              jeanyves_renaud
              > > and
              > > > > putt
              > > > > > putts By: darylcanada73 which indicate the possibility for
              > > using
              > > > > large
              > > > > > or multiple coil type engines to propel a dory, skiff or
              canoe.
              > > > > Don't
              > > > > > go too far up that infamous creek without a paddle though!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Best wishes, Frank
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
              > > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi all,
              > > > > > > Just joined this group, some years ago I made several
              engines
              > > of
              > > > > > > varous types and mounted them in cut down cans (I had not
              the
              > > > > > > patience to build the hulls) all worked, but the most fun
              was
              > > > > large
              > > > > > > and made of welded steel. This I powered by a gas
              blowlamp
              > > and
              > > > > > > mounted in a square biscuit tin. Performace was very poor
              but
              > > it
              > > > > > > galumphed around my bath in a very satisfying manner.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I am totally amazed by some of the boats and engines in
              the
              > > group
              > > > > and
              > > > > > > am inspired to carry on experimenting. My ultimate
              objective
              > > > > would be
              > > > > > > to power a canoe but I guess might not be practical!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I live in Essex in the UK.
              > > > > > > Dick
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
              > > <georgeyyy@>
              > > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Good morning & Happy New Year!
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Welcome... members new and established.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I hope that you find/continue to find our group both
              > > > > interesting and
              > > > > > > > informative. Experience and knowledge runs from
              beginners to
              > > > > > > > "professionals".
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Please write a little something about yourself, your
              > > interests
              > > > > and
              > > > > > > post
              > > > > > > > on our message board.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > P.R.Baker
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Richard Mundy
              Hi Donald, The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I can play around with them without a machine shop. I don t mind adding a valve
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
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                Hi Donald,
                The thing that interests me about the pop pop is its simplicity and I
                can play around with them without a machine shop. I don't mind adding
                a valve or two tho.
                The Newcomen or atmospheric engine evolved into the Watt, and was
                never seen again as it was so innefficient.
                Interestingly now you point it out, there seems to be a similarity
                between the Newcomen and the pop pop - both rely on condensing steam
                to create a vacuum.
                Dick


                --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                <silent1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Richard Mundy wrote:
                > > Hi Frank,
                > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica, I
                > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
                made
                > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
                > > improve efficiency?
                > > Dick
                >
                > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using steam
                to
                > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now common
                in
                > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
                Rumsley
                > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
                > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
                engine)
                > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
                (s) and
                > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
                increase
                > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
                the
                > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
                rudder,
                > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
                nozzle
                > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be strongly
                > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
                propulsion
                > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
                similarly
                > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
                still
                > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very shallow
                > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
                line...
                >
                > --
                > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                want,
                > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                >
                > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                >
                > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                >
              • Richard Mundy
                Hi Pete, thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate promise at the
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Pete,
                  thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
                  many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
                  promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
                  interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
                  Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
                  Dick


                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The Rumsey engine worked essentilly like an old well pump. The
                  engine
                  > draws water in through a forward port and expells it and some steam
                  > through a transom port. Check out photos that I have posted in a
                  Rumsey
                  > Folder. The boat moves in strokes as with oars. That motion is
                  caused by
                  > the alternate opening and closing of the two flapper valves in the
                  keel
                  > tube.
                  >
                  > Almost had a ride onthe Experiment in Aug of 07. I have become good
                  > frinds with the Rumseian Group. I worked with them in getting their
                  boat
                  > from WV to the Clermont Historic Site in NY. The Saturday that I
                  was in
                  > "uniform" the winds on the Hudson were 15-20 mph. The Experiment on
                  a
                  > good day can do about 4.5 mph. We figured that we would end up
                  somewhere
                  > around NYC if we ventured out into the river. I had made plans for
                  > Sunday so I couldn't steam the Hudson with the Rumseians. My wife
                  and I
                  > did stop to say goodbye before heading to our other commitment. In
                  the
                  > "crew" picture I'm the one out of uniform!
                  >
                  > A footnote on the Rumseians: You could ask for a nicer group of
                  people.
                  > I stay in touch with Nick Blanton we have plans on seeing more of
                  each
                  > other this year.
                  >
                  > Nick is a World class Hammer Dulcimer musician and builder.
                  > http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/
                  > <http://home.earthlink.net/~updf/nbi/>
                  >
                  > Enjoy,
                  >
                  > Pete
                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls <silent1@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Richard Mundy wrote:
                  > > > Hi Frank,
                  > > > this is very interesting. As this boat is a half scale replica,
                  I
                  > > > assume the only development work was to figure out how it was
                  made
                  > > > and how it worked. Has anyone experimented with this system to
                  > > > improve efficiency?
                  > > > Dick
                  > >
                  > > Presuming you're not just interested in (for instance) using
                  steam to
                  > > drive an axial-flow or centrifugal jet pump of the kind now
                  common in
                  > > jet boats, one obvious series of improvements to the original
                  Rumsley
                  > > design would be use of a valve operated, rather than quenched
                  > > atmospheric engine (i.e. upgrading from Newcomen to Watt type
                  engine)
                  > > and automatic valve train, presumably with double acting cylinder
                  (s)
                  > and
                  > > double acting pump(s); followed by use of multiple cylinders to
                  > increase
                  > > the rate and steadiness of flow through the propulsion duct along
                  the
                  > > keel. Addition of a reversing gate (preferably attached to the
                  rudder,
                  > > to retain efficient steering in reverse) or universally coupled
                  nozzle
                  > > (for direct thrust vectoring through 360 degrees) would be
                  strongly
                  > > suggested as well. It ought to be possible to manage a final
                  > propulsion
                  > > efficiency not much below that of a paddle wheel mounted to a
                  > similarly
                  > > designed boiler and engine with just these improvements -- and
                  still
                  > > have a boat with considerable novelty value, given the very
                  shallow
                  > > draft possible and lack of fragile moving parts below the water
                  > line...
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                  want,
                  > > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                  > >
                  > > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                  http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                  > >
                  > > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                  > > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                  > >
                  >
                • wdsmith
                  Hoo BOY!!!! You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!! I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 4, 2009
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                    Hoo BOY!!!!
                    You are treading dangerously close to one of my big cussbuttons!!
                    " I wonder how many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
                    promise at the time and something better turned up."

                    I am stunned so few realize (or realize and dismiss) that technology evolved via the technology of the day.
                    So, realizing this, a few things should be obvious:

                    1.  "Tried it long ago and it didn't work," is not necessarily a valid thought.
                         One or two critical developments and technological evolution could have took a different direction.
                    2.  Automatic dismissal based on 100 year old (anymore it may be closer to 100 days old) considerations is not a good idea.

                    Of course all generalities are false, including this one.  It is probably OK to skip over the latest perpetual motion machine....
                    bit, personally, I stil look close for any new ideas it may spark.  ;o)




                    Richard Mundy wrote:

                    Hi Pete,
                    thanks for the link. Technology hurtles along so fast I wonder how
                    many inventions are swept aside because they showed no immediate
                    promise at the time and something better turned up. I am hugely
                    interested in experimental archeology. Recreating something like the
                    Rumsey boat is not only interesting but inspirational.
                    Dick


                  • Richard Mundy
                    I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because it is no longer relevant. An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England. It is known
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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                      I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                      it is no longer relevant.
                      An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                      It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to how
                      they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how were
                      the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                      Dick
                    • Richard Mundy
                      I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the garden shed (sorry to go on) Dick ... how ... were
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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                        I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                        garden shed
                        (sorry to go on)
                        Dick




                        --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                        <coracles18@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                        > it is no longer relevant.
                        > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                        > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                        how
                        > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                        were
                        > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                        > Dick
                        >
                      • Pete B.
                        Dick, I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 5, 2009
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                          Dick,

                          I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate. I believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4 or 5 year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in the aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might have been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange and how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind had tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able to convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those inovators.

                          On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us from France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a hand pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.

                          http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html 

                          For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on a boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.

                          http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/ 

                          Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have Buehler Turbocraft boats

                          http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465

                          and the jet skis. That's it...

                          Pete

                           

                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of the
                          > garden shed
                          > (sorry to go on)
                          > Dick
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                          > coracles18@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten because
                          > > it is no longer relevant.
                          > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                          > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation as to
                          > how
                          > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly how
                          > were
                          > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                          > > Dick
                          > >
                          >

                        • Richard Mundy
                          Hi Pete, how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything about it! A couple
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Pete,
                            how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                            thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                            about it!
                            A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                            pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                            saw it here first :)
                            I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                            of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                            The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                            power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                            Dick


                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Dick,
                            >
                            > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                            > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                            I
                            > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                            or 5
                            > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                            the
                            > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                            have
                            > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                            and
                            > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                            > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                            had
                            > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                            to
                            > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                            > inovators.
                            >
                            > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                            from
                            > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                            hand
                            > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                            >
                            > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                            > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                            >
                            > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                            a
                            > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                            >
                            > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                            > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                            inventor/>
                            >
                            > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                            > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                            >
                            > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                            > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                            >
                            > and the jet skis. That's it...
                            >
                            > Pete
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > <coracles18@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                            the
                            > > garden shed
                            > > (sorry to go on)
                            > > Dick
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                            > > coracles18@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                            > because
                            > > > it is no longer relevant.
                            > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                            > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                            as to
                            > > how
                            > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                            how
                            > > were
                            > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                            > > > Dick
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Frank McNeill
                            Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a better way to let dogs pull you around.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
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                              Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                              better way to let dogs pull you around.

                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              <coracles18@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Pete,
                              > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                              > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                              > about it!
                              > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs that
                              > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but you
                              > saw it here first :)
                              > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine. Because
                              > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                              > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                              > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!
                              >
                              > Dick
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dick,
                              > >
                              > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange at a
                              > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper plate.
                              > I
                              > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as a 4
                              > or 5
                              > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were in
                              > the
                              > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I might
                              > have
                              > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the Radarange
                              > and
                              > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't thought of
                              > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young mind
                              > had
                              > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or able
                              > to
                              > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of those
                              > > inovators.
                              > >
                              > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the Us
                              > from
                              > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show a
                              > hand
                              > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                              > >
                              > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                              > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                              > >
                              > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a patent on
                              > a
                              > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                              > >
                              > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-inventor/
                              > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                              > inventor/>
                              > >
                              > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now have
                              > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                              > >
                              > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                              > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                              > >
                              > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                              > >
                              > > Pete
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out of
                              > the
                              > > > garden shed
                              > > > (sorry to go on)
                              > > > Dick
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                              > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been forgotten
                              > > because
                              > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                              > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                              > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is speculation
                              > as to
                              > > > how
                              > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge. Similarly
                              > how
                              > > > were
                              > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                              > > > > Dick
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Donald Qualls
                              ... I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually start selling a
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Richard Mundy wrote:
                                > Hi Pete,
                                > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                                > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                                > about it!

                                I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                                watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to actually
                                start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                                self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                                electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned the
                                laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame. I'd
                                have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few thousand
                                (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...

                                > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if you
                                > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that relevant!

                                Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                                density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect, however,
                                applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans and
                                a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a Newcomen
                                steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a reasonably
                                well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                                point of water).

                                --
                                If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you want,
                                it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.

                                Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

                                Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                and don't expect them to be perfect.
                              • Richard Mundy
                                Hi Frank, not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most things are. http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm Nearest thing is
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Frank,
                                  not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal - most
                                  things are.

                                  http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm

                                  Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                                  the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!

                                  Dick


                                  --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                                  <frankmcneilll@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                                  > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                                  >
                                  > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                  > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Pete,
                                  > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                                  > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                                  > > about it!
                                  > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                                  that
                                  > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                                  you
                                  > > saw it here first :)
                                  > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                                  Because
                                  > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                                  > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                                  you
                                  > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                                  relevant!
                                  > >
                                  > > Dick
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dick,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon Radarange
                                  at a
                                  > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                                  plate.
                                  > > I
                                  > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show as
                                  a 4
                                  > > or 5
                                  > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They were
                                  in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                                  might
                                  > > have
                                  > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                                  Radarange
                                  > > and
                                  > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                                  thought of
                                  > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                                  mind
                                  > > had
                                  > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older or
                                  able
                                  > > to
                                  > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                                  those
                                  > > > inovators.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                                  Us
                                  > > from
                                  > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches show
                                  a
                                  > > hand
                                  > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                                  > > > <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                                  patent on
                                  > > a
                                  > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                  inventor/
                                  > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                  > > inventor/>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We now
                                  have
                                  > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                                  > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Pete
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                  > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got out
                                  of
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > garden shed
                                  > > > > (sorry to go on)
                                  > > > > Dick
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                  > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                                  forgotten
                                  > > > because
                                  > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                                  > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                                  > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                                  speculation
                                  > > as to
                                  > > > > how
                                  > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                                  Similarly
                                  > > how
                                  > > > > were
                                  > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                                  > > > > > Dick
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Richard Mundy
                                  Hi Donald, I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density of that
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Donald,

                                    I take your point about efficiency and solar power, I was thinking of
                                    the sun as unlimited power, which it is, but as you imply the density
                                    of that power when it reaches earth is fairly low.
                                    I also agree about the Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                    development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen. I also have to
                                    think of my limited workshop and budget!

                                    Dick





                                    --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, Donald Qualls
                                    <silent1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Richard Mundy wrote:
                                    > > Hi Pete,
                                    > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think, I
                                    > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing anything
                                    > > about it!
                                    >
                                    > I had the idea for a lifetime electronic watch in 1977. Electronic
                                    > watches were brand new then, it took Casio fifteen years to
                                    actually
                                    > start selling a watch like I envisioned, in which an "automatic" or
                                    > self-winding mechanical movement generates the tiny amount of
                                    > electricity needed to run the electronic watch. I also envisioned
                                    the
                                    > laptop computer with fold-down screen about that same time frame.
                                    I'd
                                    > have "invented" either one in a heartbeat, if I'd had a few
                                    thousand
                                    > (late 1970s) dollars to toss around...
                                    >
                                    > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                                    you
                                    > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                                    relevant!
                                    >
                                    > Efficiency is *more* important with solar power, because the power
                                    > density of a given collector is so low. The low tech aspect,
                                    however,
                                    > applies even more strongly to a Stirling engine (leftover food cans
                                    and
                                    > a rubber balloon?), which will give better efficiency than a
                                    Newcomen
                                    > steam engine and do it on a much lower working temperature (a
                                    reasonably
                                    > well designed Stirling engine needn't get anywhere near the boiling
                                    > point of water).
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > If, through hard work and perseverance, you finally get what you
                                    want,
                                    > it's probably a sign you weren't dreaming big enough.
                                    >
                                    > Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
                                    http://silent1.home.netcom.com
                                    >
                                    > Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
                                    > and don't expect them to be perfect.
                                    >
                                  • Pete B.
                                    Hi Dick, Your messybeast link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It was like
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Dick,

                                      Your "messybeast" link reminded me of the year (1965) that I was in
                                      Argentia, Nfld. I was a Navy Seabee stationed at the NAVFAC site. It
                                      was like stepping back 100 years in time. I can recall seeing farmers
                                      with their 2 wheeled milk carts being pulled down the gravel road in
                                      Placentia by Newfoundland dogs. The Newfies were like a coal black
                                      St. Bernard. I also remember Fish Mongers on the street corner in St
                                      Johns with their rubber boot and apron. Great memories!

                                      Pete


                                      --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                      <coracles18@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Frank,
                                      > not seen anything like this in the UK, apparently its illegal -
                                      most
                                      > things are.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.messybeast.com/history/dogcarts.htm
                                      >
                                      > Nearest thing is Husky racing, this is on private land and
                                      > the 'sleds' have wheels in summer!
                                      >
                                      > Dick
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill"
                                      > <frankmcneilll@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Go to http://www.dogscooter.com/about.htm for information about a
                                      > > better way to let dogs pull you around.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                      > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hi Pete,
                                      > > > how often in life do we come across a new invention and think,
                                      I
                                      > > > thought of that years ago, but never got round to doing
                                      anything
                                      > > > about it!
                                      > > > A couple of years ago I invented PTFE (slippery)boots for dogs
                                      > that
                                      > > > pull their owners around. I have no idea if it would work, but
                                      > you
                                      > > > saw it here first :)
                                      > > > I have been thinking about the Newcomen atmospheric engine.
                                      > Because
                                      > > > of inefficiency it was supersceeded by Watts engine.
                                      > > > The Newcomen has one big advantage, it is very low tech and if
                                      > you
                                      > > > power it with heat from the sun its inefficency is not that
                                      > relevant!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Dick
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B."
                                      <georgeyyy@>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Dick,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I look back at my youth when I first saw the Raytheon
                                      Radarange
                                      > at a
                                      > > > > Science Show in New Hampshire. I saw a egg cooked on a paper
                                      > plate.
                                      > > > I
                                      > > > > believe that was in 1947. My grandfather took me to the show
                                      as
                                      > a 4
                                      > > > or 5
                                      > > > > year old. A few years later TV dinners hit the scene. They
                                      were
                                      > in
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > aluminum trays and were rather basic meals. At that time I
                                      > might
                                      > > > have
                                      > > > > been 10 or 11 years old. My memory took me back the the
                                      > Radarange
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > how it might been used with TV dinners. Although I hadn't
                                      > thought of
                                      > > > > replacing the aluminum tray with a non metallic one my young
                                      > mind
                                      > > > had
                                      > > > > tied the microwave to the frozen meals. If I had been older
                                      or
                                      > able
                                      > > > to
                                      > > > > convince an adult of the potential I might have been one of
                                      > those
                                      > > > > inovators.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On the Rumsey steamboat. Ben Franklin on a voyage back to the
                                      > Us
                                      > > > from
                                      > > > > France came up with the jet boat idea, Franklin's sketches
                                      show
                                      > a
                                      > > > hand
                                      > > > > pump. Rumsey replaced the hand pump with a steam engine.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html
                                      > > > >
                                      <http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/library/readings/gulf/gulf.html>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > For you History buffs; the 16th President of the US had a
                                      > patent on
                                      > > > a
                                      > > > > boat design. It's not steam related yet interesting.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                      > inventor/
                                      > > > > <http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/04/abraham-lincoln-
                                      > > > inventor/>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lincoln's idea never grew but Franklin's certainly did. We
                                      now
                                      > have
                                      > > > > Buehler Turbocraft boats
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465
                                      > > > > <http://www.uncommonboats.com/website/article.asp?id=465>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > and the jet skis. That's it...
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Pete
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                      > > > > <coracles18@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I could also add how many promising inventions never got
                                      out
                                      > of
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > > garden shed
                                      > > > > > (sorry to go on)
                                      > > > > > Dick
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mundy"
                                      > > > > > coracles18@ wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I can add to this, how much technology etc has been
                                      > forgotten
                                      > > > > because
                                      > > > > > > it is no longer relevant.
                                      > > > > > > An example is the Ironbridge, Shropshire, England.
                                      > > > > > > It is known how the sections were cast, but it is
                                      > speculation
                                      > > > as to
                                      > > > > > how
                                      > > > > > > they actually assembled these to create the bridge.
                                      > Similarly
                                      > > > how
                                      > > > > > were
                                      > > > > > > the pyramids or stonehenge built?
                                      > > > > > > Dick
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • David Halfpenny
                                      ... From: Richard Mundy Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM ... The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development: - reduction
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 9, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --------------------------------------------------
                                        From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                        Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM

                                        > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                        > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.

                                        The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                        - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                        masses etc
                                        - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                        air (like compressed air or other gases)

                                        The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                        it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                        the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                        around with the losses.

                                        Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                        would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.

                                        David 1/2d
                                      • Pete B.
                                        Here s a link to the Little Engine Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jan 10, 2009
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                                          Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.

                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520

                                          Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design of your own.

                                          Pete


                                          --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --------------------------------------------------
                                          > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@...
                                          > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                          >
                                          > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                          > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                          >
                                          > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                          > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings, clearances
                                          > masses etc
                                          > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than atmospheric
                                          > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                          >
                                          > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume since
                                          > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as soon as
                                          > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in messing
                                          > around with the losses.
                                          >
                                          > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen engine
                                          > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                          >
                                          > David 1/2d
                                          >

                                        • Richard Mundy
                                          Hi David, I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long way to go,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                                            Hi David,
                                            I am still a bit new at this. I have played around with pop pops some
                                            time ago but never got into the theory until now and there is a long
                                            way to go, its a long time since I did physics! The attraction of the
                                            pop pop is its utter simplicity, and the Newcomen does not need high
                                            pressure steam.
                                            I doubt either engine will ever change the world but it looks like
                                            fun trying.
                                            Dick

                                            --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny"
                                            <dh1@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --------------------------------------------------
                                            > From: "Richard Mundy" <coracles18@...>
                                            > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                            >
                                            > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                            > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                            >
                                            > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                            > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                            clearances
                                            > masses etc
                                            > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                            atmospheric
                                            > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                            >
                                            > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit volume
                                            since
                                            > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                            soon as
                                            > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                            messing
                                            > around with the losses.
                                            >
                                            > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                            engine
                                            > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                            >
                                            > David 1/2d
                                            >
                                          • Richard Mundy
                                            Hi Pete, thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined. This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of experiment is narrowing down
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jan 12, 2009
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                                              Hi Pete,
                                              thanks for this link, I followed it up and joined.
                                              This will be incredibly useful from the engineering side. The area of
                                              experiment is narrowing down to the pop pop and the Newcomen.
                                              I haven't started cutting metal yet, but I intend starting with some
                                              established pop pop designs.
                                              Glad you liked the dog cart page.
                                              Dick

                                              --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "Pete B." <georgeyyy@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Here's a link to the Little Engine Group.
                                              >
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleEngines/?yguid=68425520>
                                              >
                                              > Perhap you will find some additional ideas for projects or a design
                                              of
                                              > your own.
                                              >
                                              > Pete
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In pop-pop-steamboats@yahoogroups.com, "David Halfpenny" <dh1@>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > --------------------------------------------------
                                              > > From: "Richard Mundy" coracles18@
                                              > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:50 PM
                                              > >
                                              > > > Stirling Engine - but there has been a lot of
                                              > > > development of this, but hardly any on the Newcomen.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Stirling engine has had two kinds of development:
                                              > > - reduction in losses by refinement of materials, bearings,
                                              clearances
                                              > > masses etc
                                              > > - increase in power per unit volume by using denser media than
                                              > atmospheric
                                              > > air (like compressed air or other gases)
                                              > >
                                              > > The Newcomen engine is incapable of increased power per unit
                                              volume
                                              > since
                                              > > it is by definition limited to atmospheric pressure. Therefore as
                                              soon
                                              > as
                                              > > the steam engine came along, there was no longer any point in
                                              messing
                                              > > around with the losses.
                                              > >
                                              > > Toy Stirling engines are great fun, and I expect a toy Newcomen
                                              engine
                                              > > would be even more so, given a constant supply of cold water.
                                              > >
                                              > > David 1/2d
                                              > >
                                              >
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