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Jesus, what a group! Re: The Assault on Richard Clarke in Context

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  • tim_howells_1000
    ... I m just now reading The Black Book of Communism . It s written by a group of european intellectuals with strong ties to the left. Based on the state
    Message 1 of 38 , Apr 1, 2004
      "erici44" wrote:
      > Actually, after the death of Stalin, the Soviet Union probably
      > contributed less to the sum of human suffering than the United
      > States.

      I'm just now reading "The Black Book of Communism". It's
      written by a group of european intellectuals with strong
      ties to the left. Based on the state archives now available,
      the record of virtually ALL the communist regimes, certainly
      including the Soviet Union and covering both pre and post
      Stalin (and of course Stalinist) periods is really atrocious -
      exceeding quantitatively even the horrors of the Nazi regime
      in all cases. The tales of mass murder on national scales
      and forced deportations and enslavement, torture and
      systematic human degradation are truly almost unspeakable.
      This is MUST reading for anyone interested in these questions.

      > As for freedom - did the Russians love Gorbachov, no - they hated
      > him and still do, for dealing with the Americans and breaking up
      > the country.

      Certainly the current mess in the former Soviet Union seems
      to be headed downward, which one might have thought would
      be impossible. There are lots of factors here. One is that
      the social state and the conditioning of individuals in
      these countries is very very bad after so many decades of
      communist rule. I have contact with German friends who are
      just in despair over trying to bridge the gap between east
      and west Germany for this reason. Or course widespread
      corruption of "reformed" Soviet officials who have retained
      power (eg Putin) is also a huge problem, together with
      organized crime running amok with the weakened government.
      Are you aware that the government there is also using
      phony terrorism to establish an authoritarian rule? See:


      Tim Howells

      > In political-research@yahoogroups.com, "erici44" <nalabox@n...>
      > wrote:
      > > "Eric says he was a supporter of the Soviet Union. The Soviet
      > Union
      > > was probably the most monstrous regime in world history, arguably
      > > exceeding in criminality even Nazi Germany by every conceivable
      > > measure."
      > >
      > > I was'nt a supporter of the Soviet Union, only that myself and
      > > everyone I knew at school and university (going back to the time
      > > was referring to) preferred them to the Americans. I reckon most
      > of
      > > Europe felt the same judging by the way Americans (even
      > > were told they weren't welcome in France, Greece and Italy as
      > as
      > > the UK.
      > >
    • l.l.hahn@web.de
      ... sean, this is a purely rhetorical game. It would be very easy to say: Yes, Germany should nuke back . Again: this might be the usual way, I would like to
      Message 38 of 38 , Apr 2, 2004
        On 1 Apr 2004 at 19:52, Sean McBride wrote:

        > I didn't see your response to the question: What do you think would be the proper way for the
        > German government to respond to the nuking and obliteration of Berlin by another state?

        this is a purely rhetorical game. It would be very easy to say: "Yes, Germany should nuke back".

        Again: this might be the usual way, I would like to see an innovative/progressive approach to some problems. Look at what started WWI.

        > This is not a question about revenge, but about deterrent policies that discourage one state from
        > attacking another. A nation that knows it will suffer retaliation in kind for its attacks is less likely to
        > commit those attacks.

        OK oblique answer: In an interview a couple of years ago in DER SPIEGEL Ms. C. Rice, told the one doing the interview that after the Soviet empire fell there was a big despair, where was the ultimate enemy now?

        Then she said: "9-11 happened". Almost pleased she said: "now everyone knew."

        Deterrent policies: First of all we need something, that is an enemy.

        You do not like Israel because you think they provide their "clear-cut/chiselled" (this coinage probably does not work?) enemy to the larger world.

        But somebody did 9-11 and it was not Iraq. On how much evidence would you act as compared to bush43.

        I think Eric is as suspicious - at least that is the way I read his comments - as me, about the reason why so much money is pumped into the military complex. (Is this not the reason the military complex is the motor of the whole economy?)

        Also: when the ultimate enemy Communism fell, this did not stop the U.S. from inflating their military spending. (I read some Time magazine issues during the Kosovo war. They general tone was, an enormous pride on all the U.S. weaponry and heavy attacks against the EU countries for not pumping enough money into their military complex. This was the time Huntington already had glimses of the enemy on the horizon? ( and if you look closer at Kosovo, it's not over!)

        Now he is here - our enemy - and left and right are debating issues, they could not have touched that easily a couple of years before. Only some older libertarians (no neo here) over here are reluctant to follow. Like: can some people not be sent back to systems that do not guarantee human rights? If thy are our enemies?

        So the poor boat refugees (this is reality and the way it has been pictured over here for decades) trying to enter the EU or the ones trying to enter the US, are partly suspicious. Among them could be the ones that bring bombs.
        > I knew Eric lived in the UK -- I just didn't know which part. Doesn't the UK include Scotland,
        > Wales and Northern Ireland? When someone attacks my country with so much ferocity, and
        > expresses the hope that my community gets nuked, I'm a bit curious about precisely where he is
        > coming from, literally.

        The note you heavily responded to, was just an admittedly cynical reaction to your note. I have to admit I liked the wording - I thought it was wildly funny. It's odd it passed you completely.

        It  was as much a mind game as your: "What would I support as a US citizen IF ...?"

        Yes some of his responses made me laugh out loud.
        And this tells me, he is joking.

        One question: would you grant every nation on this planet to respond heavily to your scenario? What is appropriate reaction.

        Would the Iraq war be justified, if they really "believed" the evidence they were provided by the NCI?

        What if the NCI tricked the US. to clear the road for them?

        Is it OK if you nuke a country according to the best knowledge you have at the time, also if it proves wrong later.
        > The crimes of the Soviet Union began long before Stalin. The Soviet Union was immersed in
        > criminality from its very inception. Paul Johnson has written wonderfully on this subject in Modern
        > Times.

        Paul Johnson?

        >While raw body counts don't tell you everything
        >about the criminality of a regime, they tell you quite >a bit, especially when those body counts are >astronomical.  The body count produced by Marxist >regimes in the 20th century was in the many tens of >millions -- this was apart, of course, from the sheer >cultural and economic wreckage they left behind.  >Look at the current state of Russia.

        yes I am aware of the red fascist like Pol Pot, the Chinese, Russia, we even had politician over here that were heavily involved in doing people in in Russia.

        At what point "ideologies" are starting to get dangerous. What is the pure "neo" economic perspective other than an ideology?

        Are we creating enemies because we think we need them?

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