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Re: [podcasters] Re: Stupid question about enclosure length

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  • Kevin H. Devin
    The way I read the spec, the number should be depicted in bytes, not a rounding of them. -KHD
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 1, 2005
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      The way I read the spec, the number should be depicted in bytes, not a
      rounding of them.

      -KHD


      Harold Johnson wrote:
      > Well, I hope I've been doing this right. I check to see the size of
      > my file in MB and go to the first tenth (i.e., 1.4MB) and add 5 zeroes
      > (i.e., length="1.400000"). This is correct, right?
      >
      > Harold
      >
      > On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 08:49:38 -0800, Jeff Barr <jeff@...> wrote:
      >
      >> The field is supposed to denote the size (in bytes) of the file
      >> referenced as the enclosure:
      >>
      >> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltenclosuregtSubelementOfLtitemgt
      >>
      >> I have seen that some feeds are putting the length of the URL (rather
      >> than the length of
      >> what it points to) in this field, and that's wrong!
      >>
      >> Jeff;
      >>
      >> plunderfish wrote:
      >>
      >> >
      >> > You know, I've been wondering that myself. Thanks for asking...
      >> >
      >> > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, luc@s... wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Hello,
      >> > >
      >> > > I know this is a stupid question.
      >> > >
      >> > > What is exactly the length value in the enclosure tag, and what do you
      >> > > use to mesure it ?
      >> > >
      >> > > Thanks in advance
      >> > >
      >> > > Luc
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >> > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
      >> >
      >> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
      >> >
      >> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >> > <mailto:podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >> >
      >> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      >> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >> --
      >> * RSS Feeds: http://www.syndic8.com
      >> * Blog: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/blog/
      >> * Web Services: http://aws.typepad.com
      >> * Resume: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/resume.html
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ________________________________
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
      >>
      >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      >>
      >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • Harold Johnson
      Right down to the last little byte? Does this mean I m going to have to go back and change all those enclosure tags? Arrgh... Does anyone here know the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 1, 2005
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        Right down to the last little byte? Does this mean I'm going to have
        to go back and change all those enclosure tags? Arrgh...

        Does anyone here know the intended purpose of the length tag (besides
        the obvious: describing the size of the enclosure)? Dave Winer (or
        anyone who knows), is it used to display the size on
        audio.weblogs.com? Do the iPodder clients or other aggregators use it
        to display the size? What is the main, intended use for this item, or
        any future purposes you're anticipating? I'm simply curious to know
        why I have to fill in this data with every enclosure. It's not that
        big a deal, I'm just naturally curious. Thank goodness I seem to have
        nine lives...

        Harold J. Johnson
        http://SomethingthatHappened.com


        On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:58:14 -0800, Kevin H. Devin
        <kevin.devin@...> wrote:
        > The way I read the spec, the number should be depicted in bytes, not a
        > rounding of them.
        >
        > -KHD
        >
        >
        >
        > Harold Johnson wrote:
        > > Well, I hope I've been doing this right. I check to see the size of
        > > my file in MB and go to the first tenth (i.e., 1.4MB) and add 5 zeroes
        > > (i.e., length="1.400000"). This is correct, right?
        > >
        > > Harold
        > >
        > > On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 08:49:38 -0800, Jeff Barr <jeff@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >> The field is supposed to denote the size (in bytes) of the file
        > >> referenced as the enclosure:
        > >>
        > >> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltenclosuregtSubelementOfLtitemgt
        > >>
        > >> I have seen that some feeds are putting the length of the URL (rather
        > >> than the length of
        > >> what it points to) in this field, and that's wrong!
        > >>
        > >> Jeff;
        > >>
        > >> plunderfish wrote:
        > >>
        > >> >
        > >> > You know, I've been wondering that myself. Thanks for asking...
        > >> >
        > >> > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, luc@s... wrote:
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Hello,
        > >> > >
        > >> > > I know this is a stupid question.
        > >> > >
        > >> > > What is exactly the length value in the enclosure tag, and what do
        > you
        > >> > > use to mesure it ?
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Thanks in advance
        > >> > >
        > >> > > Luc
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >> > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
        > >> >
        > >> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
        > >> >
        > >> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > >> > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >> >
        > <mailto:podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        > >> >
        > >> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > >> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >> --
        > >> * RSS Feeds: http://www.syndic8.com
        > >> * Blog: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/blog/
        > >> * Web Services: http://aws.typepad.com
        > >> * Resume: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/resume.html
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ________________________________
        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >>
        > >>To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
        > >>
        > >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > >>podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >>
        > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • ecomputerd
        In my Pocket PC aggregator, FeederReader ( http://www.feederreader.com ), if the current download length is equal to or greater than the length attribute, I
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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          In my Pocket PC aggregator, FeederReader (
          http://www.feederreader.com ), if the current download length is
          equal to or greater than the length attribute, I infer that the
          enclosure is not completed downloading. This has two implications
          within the program:

          1) when "downloading all enclosures", I download only those
          (You can manually attempt to continue a download regardless of the
          current download length).

          2) When seeking out the next enclosure to play ("Play Next"), I skip
          enclosures less than 100% downloaded as indicated by the current
          download length versus the length attribute. (You can manually play
          any file, though, regardless of percent downloaded.

          Since implementing this, I realized that this can be improved by
          ignoring the length and relying only on return codes. I will very
          likely change my implementation on a future revision so that length
          is only a display tool.

          I am not sure what other aggregators do.
        • Harold Johnson
          I wanted to add: Wouldn t it have been more appropriate to name this tag size ? I m still learning its use but so far I gather that the length tag is used to
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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            I wanted to add:

            Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to name this tag "size"? I'm
            still learning its use but so far I gather that the length tag is used
            to describe the total of bytes, which tells me nothing about how long
            the file really is. Perhaps length would have been more effectively
            applied to the duration of the file (in time). Is there already a tag
            to describe the duration of the file?

            Harold

            On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:30:10 -0800, Harold Johnson
            <harold.johnson@...> wrote:
            > Right down to the last little byte? Does this mean I'm going to have
            > to go back and change all those enclosure tags? Arrgh...
            >
            > Does anyone here know the intended purpose of the length tag (besides
            > the obvious: describing the size of the enclosure)? Dave Winer (or
            > anyone who knows), is it used to display the size on
            > audio.weblogs.com? Do the iPodder clients or other aggregators use it
            > to display the size? What is the main, intended use for this item, or
            > any future purposes you're anticipating? I'm simply curious to know
            > why I have to fill in this data with every enclosure. It's not that
            > big a deal, I'm just naturally curious. Thank goodness I seem to have
            > nine lives...
            >
            > Harold J. Johnson
            > http://SomethingthatHappened.com
            >
            >
            > On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:58:14 -0800, Kevin H. Devin
            > <kevin.devin@...> wrote:
            > > The way I read the spec, the number should be depicted in bytes, not a
            > > rounding of them.
            > >
            > > -KHD
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Harold Johnson wrote:
            > > > Well, I hope I've been doing this right. I check to see the size of
            > > > my file in MB and go to the first tenth (i.e., 1.4MB) and add 5 zeroes
            > > > (i.e., length="1.400000"). This is correct, right?
            > > >
            > > > Harold
            > > >
            > > > On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 08:49:38 -0800, Jeff Barr <jeff@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >> The field is supposed to denote the size (in bytes) of the file
            > > >> referenced as the enclosure:
            > > >>
            > > >> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltenclosuregtSubelementOfLtitemgt
            > > >>
            > > >> I have seen that some feeds are putting the length of the URL (rather
            > > >> than the length of
            > > >> what it points to) in this field, and that's wrong!
            > > >>
            > > >> Jeff;
            > > >>
            > > >> plunderfish wrote:
            > > >>
            > > >> >
            > > >> > You know, I've been wondering that myself. Thanks for asking...
            > > >> >
            > > >> > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, luc@s... wrote:
            > > >> > >
            > > >> > > Hello,
            > > >> > >
            > > >> > > I know this is a stupid question.
            > > >> > >
            > > >> > > What is exactly the length value in the enclosure tag, and what do
            > > you
            > > >> > > use to mesure it ?
            > > >> > >
            > > >> > > Thanks in advance
            > > >> > >
            > > >> > > Luc
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > >> > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
            > > >> >
            > > >> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
            > > >> >
            > > >> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > >> > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >> >
            > > <mailto:podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            > > >> >
            > > >> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > >> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            > > >> >
            > > >> >
            > > >>
            > > >> --
            > > >> * RSS Feeds: http://www.syndic8.com
            > > >> * Blog: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/blog/
            > > >> * Web Services: http://aws.typepad.com
            > > >> * Resume: http://www.syndic8.com/~jeff/resume.html
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >> ________________________________
            > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >>
            > > >>To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
            > > >>
            > > >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > >>podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >>
            > > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
          • ecomputerd
            I am not aware of an attribute that describes the enclosures duration in time. This would be specific only to those enclosure types that are non-interactive
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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              I am not aware of an attribute that describes the enclosures
              duration in time. This would be specific only to those enclosure
              types that are non-interactive playable media. Enclosures are more
              generic than just podcasts or even "playable media".

              As far as the name is concerned, both "length" and "size" are used
              technically to describe the number of bytes in a file (in various
              APIs on various operating systems). The semantic connotation
              differences are probably only relevant if there were a different
              enclosure attribute to describe the duration.

              Confusing? Yes, unless you read the specification:

              http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltenclosuregtSubelementOfLtitem
              gt

              "It has three required attributes. url says where the enclosure is
              located, length says how big it is in bytes, and type says what its
              type is, a standard MIME type."
            • Amy Gahran
              ... LOL, I ve gotta say it, that language fromt he standard is a CLASSIC example of why so many technogeeky things are confusing. Only a geek would immediately
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:36:39 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:
                > Confusing? Yes, unless you read the specification:
                >
                > http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss#ltenclosuregtSubelementOfLtitem
                > gt
                >
                > "It has three required attributes. url says where the enclosure is
                > located, length says how big it is in bytes, and type says what its
                > type is, a standard MIME type."


                LOL, I've gotta say it, that language fromt he standard is a CLASSIC
                example of why so many technogeeky things are confusing. Only a geek
                would immediately assume that "length" = "file size."

                Go to any dictionary (you know, those alphabetical listings of
                ordinary words that ordinary people use). There, you'll see
                definitions like these:

                - The state, quality, or fact of being long.
                - The measurement of the extent of something along its greatest
                dimension: the length of the boat.
                - A measure used as a unit to estimate distances: won the race by a length.
                - Extent or distance from beginning to end: the length of a novel; the
                length of a journey.
                - The amount of time between specified moments; the duration: the
                length of a meeting.

                I don't mind so much that geeks write in their own language,
                especially when creating standards. But why, oh why, can't they go
                back and clarify those terms in the key documents once it's become
                apparent that people are getting confused, rather than just expecting
                people to figure it out willy-nilly?

                That just smacks of techno-snobbery to me. Only the initiated who can
                speak the sacred tongue may enter and explore the mysteries.....

                </rant>

                - Amy Gahran, your not-so-humble incorrigible word geek


                --

                Amy Gahran

                Editor, CONTENTIOUS:
                - http://blog.contentious.com

                Writer, Editor, Trainer, and Info-Provocateur:
                - http://gahran.com
              • Julian Yahoo 1
                ... From: Amy Gahran ... I had that when I started - looked at the xml for a Daily Source Code and thought what the heck is 42875345 . The clue was in the
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Amy Gahran

                  >LOL, I've gotta say it, that language fromt he standard is a CLASSIC
                  >example of why so many technogeeky things are confusing. Only a geek
                  >would immediately assume that "length" = "file size."

                  I had that when I started - looked at the xml for a Daily Source Code and
                  thought "what the heck is 42875345". The clue was in the 40.9Mb that was in
                  the download list.

                  Question: does it actually have to be 42875345 or would 42000000 do, since
                  most pod-people will be more interested in a) the size being around 40Mb, b)
                  the 34:39 that gives the real length.

                  Is the exact size a useful or bureaucratic thing?

                  Julian

                  Web: www.thepicturepost.co.uk
                  Blog: www.herecomespod.org.uk/blog/
                  Podcast/RSS: http://www.bestchurches.org.uk/rss/offthebeatentrack.xml
                • Harold Johnson
                  ... Without the _exact_ byte size, the podcast will be rejected by most iPodder clients. Nah, I m just messing around. I have no idea what will happen if we
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                    On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 02:12:27 -0000, Julian Yahoo 1 <julianduk@...> wrote:

                    > Question: does it actually have to be 42875345 or would 42000000 do, since
                    > most pod-people will be more interested in a) the size being around 40Mb,
                    > b)
                    > the 34:39 that gives the real length.
                    >
                    > Is the exact size a useful or bureaucratic thing?

                    Without the _exact_ byte size, the podcast will be rejected by most
                    iPodder clients. Nah, I'm just messing around. I have no idea what
                    will happen if we don't use the exact size, and I'm kind of concerned
                    about it, too. It's the little details that keep me up at night...(I
                    should have been a programmer.)

                    Harold
                  • Douglas E. Welch
                    ... I would venture a guess that the size is what is used to calculate the % complete display when downloading the file. D -- For a variety of reasons,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                      > Without the _exact_ byte size, the podcast will be rejected by most
                      > iPodder clients. Nah, I'm just messing around. I have no idea what
                      > will happen if we don't use the exact size, and I'm kind of concerned
                      > about it, too. It's the little details that keep me up at night...(I
                      > should have been a programmer.)

                      I would venture a guess that the size is what is used to calculate the %
                      complete display when downloading the file.

                      D

                      --
                      "For a variety of reasons, improvements in the garden have been on hold for
                      much too long. My motivation has been lacking to attack major improvements
                      and even the day-to-day maintenance has suffered."

                      From A Gardener's Notebook: Back in the soil again, July 23, 2000
                      Read it all at: <http://www.welchwrite.com/agn/gn000723.asp>
                    • ecomputerd
                      ... Well, this geek (me) would recognize the ambiguity, then resolve it by reading the specification. ... expecting ... I m not sure what better key
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                        <RANT>

                        > Only a geek would immediately assume that "length" = "file size."

                        Well, this geek (me) would recognize the ambiguity, then resolve it
                        by reading the specification.

                        >But why, oh why, can't they go
                        >back and clarify those terms in the key documents once it's become
                        >apparent that people are getting confused, rather than just
                        expecting
                        >people to figure it out willy-nilly?


                        I'm not sure what better "key document" there is aside from the
                        specification. And I'm not sure what needs to be clarified
                        about: "length says how big it is in bytes".

                        Why, oh why, must non-geeks lament about the apparent techno-
                        snobbery when all that is required is to READ THE SPECIFICATION!

                        Enter "rss specification" in google, click the first listed
                        item "RSS Specification 2.0" then click to the element items, then
                        click "more" under enclosures. Then read: "length says how big it is
                        in bytes."

                        Sometimes reading is very helpful in understanding meaning, as
                        opposed to simply guessing about the sacred tongue.

                        > That just smacks of techno-snobbery to me. Only the initiated who
                        can
                        > speak the sacred tongue may enter and explore the mysteries.....

                        The only initiative I see that is necessary is the initiative to
                        read the specification.
                        </RANT>

                        If there is something confusing about the specification, then please
                        try to describe it, ask for clarification, or attempt clarification
                        and ask for agreement. Sometime rants just provoke other rants.
                      • ecomputerd
                        ... the % ... In some aggregators (well, mine anyway), the length is used to determine if the enclosure is downloaded completely. I ve written more detail
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 2, 2005
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                          > I would venture a guess that the size is what is used to calculate
                          the %
                          > complete display when downloading the file.
                          >
                          > D

                          In some aggregators (well, mine anyway), the length is used to
                          determine if the enclosure is downloaded completely. I've written
                          more detail about 5 posts ago:

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/message/1002
                        • Pete Prodoehl
                          ... Using curl I ask my server some info about a URI: curl -I http://rasterweb.net/raster/audio/rwaudio20041218.mp3 It tells me this: HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 3, 2005
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                            Harold Johnson wrote:
                            > I wanted to add:
                            >
                            > Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to name this tag "size"?

                            Using curl I ask my server some info about a URI:

                            curl -I http://rasterweb.net/raster/audio/rwaudio20041218.mp3

                            It tells me this:

                            HTTP/1.1 200 OK
                            Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:38:14 GMT
                            Server: Apache/1.3.31 (Unix)
                            Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:14:17 GMT
                            ETag: "6db820-8518c-41c3f4e9"
                            Accept-Ranges: bytes
                            Content-Length: 545164
                            Content-Type: audio/mpeg

                            See the 'Content-Length' that's where 'length' comes from, and why it
                            isn't called 'size' in the RSS spec. Yes, it is a bit confusing since we
                            are dealing with something that has a 'length' to it, in this case audio
                            recordings...

                            Pete
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