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Re: bandwidth (BitTorrent Convo)

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  • Thomas Gaume
    ... Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent: From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth: One of the biggest issues facing
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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      --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
      <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
      > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
      > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
      > a necessity....

      Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:

      From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:

      "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
      the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
      downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
      media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
      material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
      Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
      software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
      simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
      file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
      trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
      file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."

      Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
      associated with your podcast the two would never match.

      2cents

      Tom @ ipodio
    • Olivier
      morning, ... It s funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each country are against sharing, when it s obvious for parents to teach their
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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        'morning,

        > other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
        > utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
        > the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

        It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
        country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
        their children they must share their toys with their friends.
        You're right Harold, we have to show that sharing is good, not only for
        toys, but for music, culture, history, knowledge, too.

        > I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
        > the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
        > their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
        > right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
        > in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
        > our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

        I think you're right in the way that the net is big enough so the memory
        of any show can stay alive for ages, and still be available from
        anywhere in the world. And BitTorrent is a great way to achieve that. If
        one source is missing, the archive is still available.

        On a more computer way, the RAID 5 is something like that. Your datas
        are spread over 5 Hard disk. And if one disk crashes, your data are
        still available !

        Olivier
      • Nicole Simon
        ... Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?) It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should all
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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          Olivier <olisker@...> wrote:
          >It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
          >country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
          >their children they must share their toys with their friends.

          Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?)

          It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should
          all work together in teams, how this is the way to go and everybody must do
          so - when one of the more experiment posters said 'hm. In my job, this is
          treated as cheating.' Even though an older poster, he was still in school,
          and he is right. 9-13 years of our lives in german school business you are
          educated that working toghether is cheating and is punished.

          How do we expect people to develop a sense for the good within? But it
          comes out more or less in every person that they want to share, to connect.
          Must be deep within our nature. Which again shows: There is something wrong
          in forbidding it.

          Nicole
        • Danny Ayers
          On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd wrote: On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing, whatever the RIAA
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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            On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

            On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing,
            whatever the RIAA etc say.

            > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
            > applicable.

            Absolutely. RSS 2.0 is only simple when presented as a sugar coating
            around a stack of technologies that are far from simple: XML, XML
            Namespaces, Unicode, HTTP, XML *over* HTTP (see RFC 3023 - simple?)
            URIs, the HTML family. This presentation is fine and dandy when
            everything is down the middle for simple applications leaning towards
            English-centric applications where a lot of problems are skirted
            thanks to ASCII. After all, it is conceptually simple, and should
            certainly be simple for the end users. But even in these circumstances
            it's easy for things to go wrong, with the result that invalid feeds
            are ten a penny and aggregator developers have to jump through hoops
            to make them readable.

            Swallowing the marketing without chewing and using simplicity as
            justification for poor design is not a good idea, and inevitably leads
            to problems further down the line: e.g. remember the "silent data loss
            problem"?

            Cheers,
            Danny.

            --

            http://dannyayers.com
          • tacomancini
            Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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              Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our
              service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting community.
              Hopefully torrent will be fully integrated in the ipodder software, and its use will be made
              transparent so as not to
              confuse new podcast adopters.
              We have a very simple Blog solution built in our system, that allows beginners to get going
              as quickly as possible. We also offer a quickcast solution similar to dircaster
              shadydentist.com/wordpress/archives/2004/10/13/dircaster-01/ That creates a podcast
              automatically when the user uploads a mp3 file, and uses the id3 tags of the mp3 to
              create the blog entry.
              The path to the mp3s for the user is libsyn.com/media/<username>/<filename>
              so that integration with external blogs is not broken.

              --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Gaume" <gaume@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
              > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
              > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
              > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
              > > a necessity....
              >
              > Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:
              >
              > From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:
              >
              > "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
              > the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
              > downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
              > media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
              > material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
              > Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
              > software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
              > simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
              > file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
              > trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
              > file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."
              >
              > Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
              > associated with your podcast the two would never match.
              >
              > 2cents
              >
              > Tom @ ipodio
            • Olivier
              Hi, ... I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn t know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I didn t
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                Hi,

                > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
                > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

                I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn't
                know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I
                didn't even notice some of them was torrent files. I just see that the
                progress bar was growing.. just like any download :) Could it be
                simpler ?

                Olivier
              • ILK
                ... have it ... appreciate it. Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation. (perhaps later this evening?) .. but I think having it
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                  > > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                  > > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and*
                  have it
                  > > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd
                  appreciate it.

                  Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation.
                  (perhaps later this evening?)

                  .. but

                  I think having it disabled by default is the opposite of making
                  things easy for the end users when there are bittorrent podcasts
                  out there. They will subscribe and assume the podcast is dead.
                  That's user UNfriendly.

                  On the other hand, for reasons I will go into later if there's
                  any interest, bittorrent is proving to be troublesome. It's not
                  100 percent clear to me at this point, but subscriptions seem
                  (note: I have not tested it personally) to increase once one
                  switches from BT to http.

                  This could have something to do with ISP port blocking. One solution
                  to this problem would be for the ipodder developers to choose a
                  different block of ports (anything but the known default ones) in the
                  next release for bittorrent in ipodder, etc. I'd be interested in
                  being a part of testing this if there are any takers. My podcast, for
                  now, is bittorrent only. If I switch over to http, it would be served
                  locally from one of my machines and I would be using a server that
                  does not generate a report. I will be setting up a more "significant"
                  (read:headaches) web server in the near future in order to see the
                  differences. But first I'd like to see what happens when ipodder
                  chooses a non-standard port range for the bittorrent aspect of the
                  program. Try 6999-7099. I suggested that range to a friend that was
                  seeing his bittorrents suddenly non-functional a few weeks ago. Now
                  he has no issues.

                  But finally, most importantly, please do not disable bittorent
                  by default. We're not all rich out here.

                  The idea that bittorrent should be avoided because of it's association
                  with piracy (arrrgh! matey) is a bit silly. Good way to keep it that
                  way, however. MP3 is associated with piracy as well. Maybe we should
                  all go with OGG. But wait, you say, isn't that an arguement against
                  bittorrent?? Well, no. Read this and roll it around in your mouth.
                  Sniff it, observe it as it swirls in the glass in front of your face....

                  "According to British Web analysis firm CacheLogic, BitTorrent
                  accounts for an astounding 35 percent of all the traffic on the
                  Internet -- more than all other peer-to-peer programs combined -- and
                  dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages."

                  Source: http://in.tech.yahoo.com/041103/137/2ho4i.html

                  Pay key attention to that last part...

                  "dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages"

                  This aint for geeks only, and to make the assumption that this is
                  not a widely used protocol is simply not the truth. And please note
                  that it doesn't say 35% of users, it says 35% of traffic. That's
                  significant.


                  BUT, in defense of what others have said here, if using bottorrent
                  as CURRENTLY implemented in podcast clients means you cut your
                  audience in half, it must be avoided if audience size means something
                  to you. It would just be nice to see something being done on the
                  client side to use a different port range so people can download if
                  their ISP is attempting to police their connection.

                  Also, if users are using firewalls(and if they are not, this is a much
                  bigger problem), they had to give permission for ipodder in the first
                  place to make it functional. If they use a more sophisticated firewall
                  and have no idea how to use it, then they really shouldn't be using
                  that sophisticated firewall at all.

                  And having a torrent open on your machine does not "open it up to the
                  world". If that were the case, it would not be widely used. Especially
                  if you assume it's "geeky".

                  In the end, yes, there are bittorrent-only podcasts. And there will be
                  more. But not if the client disables it by default. That would be a
                  sad day for everyone. Especially end-users. Podcasters as well. As it
                  stands, the choices are clear. Find a sweet deal with a provider, PAY
                  up the wazoo for bandwidth, pay a high fee or use a free service that
                  may change tomorrow or limit you in various, unpredictable ways. All
                  of this while bittorrent is standing in front of us, it's jaw agape
                  and it's hands waving in the air with a look of "what are you guys
                  waiting for?" on it's face. Bittorrent bypasses so much of this
                  reliance on so many others, free or otherwise (and we all know it's
                  almost always otherwise in the end). The only thing it relies on is
                  it's participants. (users, providers)



                  ilk..
                • Dennis A. Amith
                  I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                    I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about
                    bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our bittorrents will be
                    posted.

                    If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and downloads would probably be
                    very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in track of things especially
                    if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.

                    Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if they'll start a PodCast
                    section... j/k.

                    - daa
                    --
                    Metro Media Complex: Podcast Edition
                    www.nt2099.com/MMC/
                    info@...
                  • ILK
                    ... who worry about ... bittorrents will be ... downloads would probably be ... track of things especially ... they ll start a PodCast ... I DO have a
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                      --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis A. Amith" <nt2099@s...> wrote:
                      > I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us
                      who worry about
                      > bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                      bittorrents will be
                      > posted.
                      > If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and
                      downloads would probably be
                      > very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in
                      track of things especially
                      > if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.
                      > Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if
                      they'll start a PodCast
                      > section... j/k.
                      > - daa

                      I DO have a podcast-only tracker, now. Currently 3 podcasts, several
                      "episodes" from 2 of them and another on the way(?). And I think it
                      could handle a few other podcasts. (drop me a mail if any of you want
                      to try it out)

                      The suprnova thing could happen if someone here knows how to get it to
                      work past the upload page. I've tried many times. You can post
                      podcasts to the "misc" category. If anyone can figure out how to
                      upload to suprnova (and make it work), please let us all know.

                      ilk..
                    • Ross Wm. Rader
                      ... Bingo. The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                        Gregory Narain wrote:

                        > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
                        > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

                        Bingo.

                        The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                        reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                        and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                        smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                        via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                        terms that the audience understands.

                        That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                        the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                        audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                        at cross-purpose to yourself.


                        --





                        -rwr



                        Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                        Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                        My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                      • Ross Wm. Rader
                        ... Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution, these don t always give
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                          ecomputerd wrote:
                          > Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                          > aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                          > compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                          > complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                          > offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                          > my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                          > complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                          > complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                          > does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                          > value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                          > authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                          > catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                          Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I
                          understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution,
                          these don't always give users the best solution. Where possible, I
                          always prefer that the developers I work with err on the side of
                          assuming and abstracting more complexity rather than embracing the
                          simplest, most expedient solution. It is often these extra mile
                          solutions that make for killer differentiation because it often brings
                          about real utility for end users.

                          That being said, I've often implemented the most readily available
                          solution to be met with less than stellar, but timely nonetheless,
                          results ;)

                          --





                          -rwr



                          Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                          Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                          My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                        • lerhaupt
                          ... There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software. Podcasters should
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                            > Bingo.
                            >
                            > The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                            > reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                            > and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                            > smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                            > via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                            > terms that the audience understands.
                            >
                            > That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                            > the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                            > audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                            > at cross-purpose to yourself.
                            >

                            There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                            bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                            Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                            new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                            comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                            they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                            of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                            as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                            As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                            media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                            to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                            getting there.
                          • Ross Wm. Rader
                            ... Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their current support for HTTP transfers... ... I *hear* you, but I m still not convinced
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 21, 2004
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                              lerhaupt wrote:

                              > There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                              > bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                              Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their
                              current support for HTTP transfers...

                              > Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                              > new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                              > comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                              > they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                              > of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                              > as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                              I *hear* you, but I'm still not convinced that the incentives line up
                              until the client developers deal with the usability issues - not in any
                              serious sense anyway...

                              > As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                              > media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                              > to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                              > getting there.

                              20mb per podcast? I don't think I subscribe to any that are that small :)
                              --





                              -rwr



                              Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                              Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                              My weblog: http://www.byte.org
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