Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [podcasters] Re: bandwidth (BitTorrent Convo)

Expand Messages
  • Pete Prodoehl
    ... Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;) Pete
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Gregory Narain wrote:
      >
      > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
      > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

      Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;)

      Pete
    • Lucas Gonze
      ... It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet up. Something like: ...with the time spec above
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:

        > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
        > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
        > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
        > teach them to make holes.
        >
        > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
        > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
        > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
        > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
        > on all fronts.

        It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
        up. Something like:
        <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>

        ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
      • Lucas Gonze
        ... Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition. - Lucas
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Eric Rice wrote:
          > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
          >
          >
          > I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
          > quadrupled.

          Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but
          then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition.

          - Lucas
        • Pete Prodoehl
          ... Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That s the thing about BitTorrent, it depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right? Going the
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Lucas Gonze wrote:
            >
            > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
            >
            >>I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
            >>does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
            >>that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
            >>teach them to make holes.
            >>
            >>I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
            >>the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
            >>for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
            >>0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
            >>on all fronts.
            >
            >
            > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
            > up. Something like:
            > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
            >
            > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.

            Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That's the thing about BitTorrent, it
            depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right?

            Going the super-geeky route, build me a podcasting client that can
            accept notifications and then ping it to make it join the BitTorrent fun
            at an appropriate time.

            So at 2:18 AM it gets notified that a new Daily Source Code is available
            and it then initiates the whole BitTorrent thing, in unison with all the
            other zombies out there doing the same thing.

            Crazy? I dunno...

            Pete
          • Jason @ Insomnia Radio
            Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled. Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT angle does
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled.
              Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT
              angle does not simplify Podcasting.

              Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
              He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
              charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
              a necessity....

              Just my two cents.


              On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
              >
              > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
              > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
              > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
              > > teach them to make holes.
              > >
              > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
              > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
              > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
              > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
              > > on all fronts.
              >
              > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
              > up. Something like:
              > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
              >
              > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              --
              Jason Evangelho
              Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
              http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
              RSS Feed:
              http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
              IndieFeed Podcast
              http://www.indiefeed.com
              AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
              Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
              MSN: jason_evangelho@...

              "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
              strong to be broken."
              ~Samuel Johnson
            • ecomputerd
              While I believe that both standard download and BT download should both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant value. 1) BT allows the
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                value.

                1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                available bandwidth with popularity.

                2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                larger files get casted.

                3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                BitTorrent can handle this today.

                4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                the "standards".)

                5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.

                Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.

                I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.

                Comments?



                --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                subscribers doubled.
                > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                BT
                > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                >
                > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                less of
                > a necessity....
                >
                > Just my two cents.
                >
                >
                > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                > >
                > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                BitTorrent..
                > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                training people
                > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                to try to
                > > > teach them to make holes.
                > > >
                > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                gain value as
                > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                and dandy
                > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                with
                > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                all formats
                > > > on all fronts.
                > >
                > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                to meet
                > > up. Something like:
                > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                > >
                > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > --
                > Jason Evangelho
                > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                > RSS Feed:
                > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                > IndieFeed Podcast
                > http://www.indiefeed.com
                > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                >
                > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                > strong to be broken."
                > ~Samuel Johnson
              • Harold Johnson
                I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just doesn t feel right when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet I also think
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just "doesn't feel right"
                  when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet
                  I also think there's an opportunity for podcasting to rebrand the idea
                  of filesharing in the public's imagination. The RIAA and MPAA have
                  been pounding the notion that there's no place for BitTorrent and
                  other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                  utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                  the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                  So how do we do that? The most downloaded podcasts could certainly
                  benefit from the torrenting technology, but we've already covered
                  that. How about this: We know that BitTorrent is perfect for
                  distributing large files. So why not use it to get only the really
                  huge packages out there, like a package of podcasts for newcomers?

                  I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                  the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                  their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                  right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                  in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                  our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                  (Okay, maybe that was a really obvious use. Hey, I tried.)

                  Harold

                  On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                  > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                  > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                  > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                  > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                  > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                  > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                  > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                  > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                  > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                • Eric Rice
                  I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd. And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd.

                    And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big boys.

                    Eric :-)
                    EricRice.com




                    --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                    > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                    > value.
                    >
                    > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                    > available bandwidth with popularity.
                    >
                    > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                    > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                    > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                    > larger files get casted.
                    >
                    > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                    > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                    > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                    >
                    > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                    > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                    > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                    > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                    > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                    > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                    > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                    > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                    > the "standards".)
                    >
                    > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                    > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                    > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                    > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                    > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                    > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                    > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                    > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                    > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                    >
                    > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                    > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                    >
                    > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.
                    >
                    > Comments?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                    > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                    > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                    > subscribers doubled.
                    > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                    > BT
                    > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                    > >
                    > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                    > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                    > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                    > less of
                    > > a necessity....
                    > >
                    > > Just my two cents.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                    > BitTorrent..
                    > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                    > training people
                    > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                    > to try to
                    > > > > teach them to make holes.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                    > gain value as
                    > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                    > and dandy
                    > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                    > with
                    > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                    > all formats
                    > > > > on all fronts.
                    > > >
                    > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                    > to meet
                    > > > up. Something like:
                    > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                    > > >
                    > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > >
                    > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Jason Evangelho
                    > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                    > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                    > > RSS Feed:
                    > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                    > > IndieFeed Podcast
                    > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                    > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                    > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                    > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                    > >
                    > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                    > > strong to be broken."
                    > > ~Samuel Johnson
                  • ecomputerd
                    Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward compatibility so that at its basic
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                      aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                      compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                      complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                      offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                      my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                      complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                      complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                      does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                      value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                      authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                      catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                      Enjoying the conversation!

                      --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Rice" <eric@e...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass
                      appeal. Beyond the nerd.
                      >
                      > And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                      boys.
                      >
                      > Eric :-)
                      > EricRice.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download
                      should
                      > > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                      > > value.
                      > >
                      > > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                      > > available bandwidth with popularity.
                      > >
                      > > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is
                      not
                      > > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts.
                      Nor is
                      > > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger
                      and
                      > > larger files get casted.
                      > >
                      > > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                      > > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                      > > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                      > >
                      > > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                      > > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of
                      6 or
                      > > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                      > > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                      > > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                      > > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that
                      there
                      > > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                      > > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                      > > the "standards".)
                      > >
                      > > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters)
                      should
                      > > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article
                      suggests)
                      > > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people
                      have
                      > > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because
                      people
                      > > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent
                      will
                      > > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will
                      be
                      > > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients.
                      IMHO,
                      > > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                      > > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                      > >
                      > > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but
                      it
                      > > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                      > >
                      > > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage
                      discussion.
                      > >
                      > > Comments?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                      > > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                      > > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                      > > subscribers doubled.
                      > > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The
                      whole
                      > > BT
                      > > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                      > > >
                      > > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                      > > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                      > > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                      > > less of
                      > > > a necessity....
                      > > >
                      > > > Just my two cents.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze
                      <lgonze@p...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                      > > BitTorrent..
                      > > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                      > > training people
                      > > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in
                      general
                      > > to try to
                      > > > > > teach them to make holes.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                      > > gain value as
                      > > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine
                      and
                      > > and dandy
                      > > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the
                      newbies
                      > > with
                      > > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts
                      in
                      > > all formats
                      > > > > > on all fronts.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT
                      users
                      > > to meet
                      > > > > up. Something like:
                      > > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ________________________________
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > Service.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > Jason Evangelho
                      > > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                      > > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                      > > > RSS Feed:
                      > > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                      > > > IndieFeed Podcast
                      > > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                      > > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                      > > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                      > > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                      > > >
                      > > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are
                      too
                      > > > strong to be broken."
                      > > > ~Samuel Johnson
                    • Thomas Gaume
                      ... Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent: From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth: One of the biggest issues facing
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                        <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                        > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                        > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                        > a necessity....

                        Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:

                        From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:

                        "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                        the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                        downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                        media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                        material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                        Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                        software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                        simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                        file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                        trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                        file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."

                        Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                        associated with your podcast the two would never match.

                        2cents

                        Tom @ ipodio
                      • Olivier
                        morning, ... It s funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each country are against sharing, when it s obvious for parents to teach their
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          'morning,

                          > other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                          > utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                          > the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                          It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                          country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                          their children they must share their toys with their friends.
                          You're right Harold, we have to show that sharing is good, not only for
                          toys, but for music, culture, history, knowledge, too.

                          > I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                          > the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                          > their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                          > right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                          > in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                          > our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                          I think you're right in the way that the net is big enough so the memory
                          of any show can stay alive for ages, and still be available from
                          anywhere in the world. And BitTorrent is a great way to achieve that. If
                          one source is missing, the archive is still available.

                          On a more computer way, the RAID 5 is something like that. Your datas
                          are spread over 5 Hard disk. And if one disk crashes, your data are
                          still available !

                          Olivier
                        • Nicole Simon
                          ... Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?) It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should all
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Olivier <olisker@...> wrote:
                            >It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                            >country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                            >their children they must share their toys with their friends.

                            Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?)

                            It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should
                            all work together in teams, how this is the way to go and everybody must do
                            so - when one of the more experiment posters said 'hm. In my job, this is
                            treated as cheating.' Even though an older poster, he was still in school,
                            and he is right. 9-13 years of our lives in german school business you are
                            educated that working toghether is cheating and is punished.

                            How do we expect people to develop a sense for the good within? But it
                            comes out more or less in every person that they want to share, to connect.
                            Must be deep within our nature. Which again shows: There is something wrong
                            in forbidding it.

                            Nicole
                          • Danny Ayers
                            On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd wrote: On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing, whatever the RIAA
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                              On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing,
                              whatever the RIAA etc say.

                              > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                              > applicable.

                              Absolutely. RSS 2.0 is only simple when presented as a sugar coating
                              around a stack of technologies that are far from simple: XML, XML
                              Namespaces, Unicode, HTTP, XML *over* HTTP (see RFC 3023 - simple?)
                              URIs, the HTML family. This presentation is fine and dandy when
                              everything is down the middle for simple applications leaning towards
                              English-centric applications where a lot of problems are skirted
                              thanks to ASCII. After all, it is conceptually simple, and should
                              certainly be simple for the end users. But even in these circumstances
                              it's easy for things to go wrong, with the result that invalid feeds
                              are ten a penny and aggregator developers have to jump through hoops
                              to make them readable.

                              Swallowing the marketing without chewing and using simplicity as
                              justification for poor design is not a good idea, and inevitably leads
                              to problems further down the line: e.g. remember the "silent data loss
                              problem"?

                              Cheers,
                              Danny.

                              --

                              http://dannyayers.com
                            • tacomancini
                              Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our
                                service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting community.
                                Hopefully torrent will be fully integrated in the ipodder software, and its use will be made
                                transparent so as not to
                                confuse new podcast adopters.
                                We have a very simple Blog solution built in our system, that allows beginners to get going
                                as quickly as possible. We also offer a quickcast solution similar to dircaster
                                shadydentist.com/wordpress/archives/2004/10/13/dircaster-01/ That creates a podcast
                                automatically when the user uploads a mp3 file, and uses the id3 tags of the mp3 to
                                create the blog entry.
                                The path to the mp3s for the user is libsyn.com/media/<username>/<filename>
                                so that integration with external blogs is not broken.

                                --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Gaume" <gaume@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                                > > a necessity....
                                >
                                > Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:
                                >
                                > From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:
                                >
                                > "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                                > the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                                > downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                                > media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                                > material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                                > Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                                > software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                                > simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                                > file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                                > trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                                > file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."
                                >
                                > Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                                > associated with your podcast the two would never match.
                                >
                                > 2cents
                                >
                                > Tom @ ipodio
                              • Olivier
                                Hi, ... I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn t know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I didn t
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi,

                                  > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                  > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
                                  > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

                                  I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn't
                                  know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I
                                  didn't even notice some of them was torrent files. I just see that the
                                  progress bar was growing.. just like any download :) Could it be
                                  simpler ?

                                  Olivier
                                • ILK
                                  ... have it ... appreciate it. Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation. (perhaps later this evening?) .. but I think having it
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                    > > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and*
                                    have it
                                    > > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd
                                    appreciate it.

                                    Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation.
                                    (perhaps later this evening?)

                                    .. but

                                    I think having it disabled by default is the opposite of making
                                    things easy for the end users when there are bittorrent podcasts
                                    out there. They will subscribe and assume the podcast is dead.
                                    That's user UNfriendly.

                                    On the other hand, for reasons I will go into later if there's
                                    any interest, bittorrent is proving to be troublesome. It's not
                                    100 percent clear to me at this point, but subscriptions seem
                                    (note: I have not tested it personally) to increase once one
                                    switches from BT to http.

                                    This could have something to do with ISP port blocking. One solution
                                    to this problem would be for the ipodder developers to choose a
                                    different block of ports (anything but the known default ones) in the
                                    next release for bittorrent in ipodder, etc. I'd be interested in
                                    being a part of testing this if there are any takers. My podcast, for
                                    now, is bittorrent only. If I switch over to http, it would be served
                                    locally from one of my machines and I would be using a server that
                                    does not generate a report. I will be setting up a more "significant"
                                    (read:headaches) web server in the near future in order to see the
                                    differences. But first I'd like to see what happens when ipodder
                                    chooses a non-standard port range for the bittorrent aspect of the
                                    program. Try 6999-7099. I suggested that range to a friend that was
                                    seeing his bittorrents suddenly non-functional a few weeks ago. Now
                                    he has no issues.

                                    But finally, most importantly, please do not disable bittorent
                                    by default. We're not all rich out here.

                                    The idea that bittorrent should be avoided because of it's association
                                    with piracy (arrrgh! matey) is a bit silly. Good way to keep it that
                                    way, however. MP3 is associated with piracy as well. Maybe we should
                                    all go with OGG. But wait, you say, isn't that an arguement against
                                    bittorrent?? Well, no. Read this and roll it around in your mouth.
                                    Sniff it, observe it as it swirls in the glass in front of your face....

                                    "According to British Web analysis firm CacheLogic, BitTorrent
                                    accounts for an astounding 35 percent of all the traffic on the
                                    Internet -- more than all other peer-to-peer programs combined -- and
                                    dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages."

                                    Source: http://in.tech.yahoo.com/041103/137/2ho4i.html

                                    Pay key attention to that last part...

                                    "dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages"

                                    This aint for geeks only, and to make the assumption that this is
                                    not a widely used protocol is simply not the truth. And please note
                                    that it doesn't say 35% of users, it says 35% of traffic. That's
                                    significant.


                                    BUT, in defense of what others have said here, if using bottorrent
                                    as CURRENTLY implemented in podcast clients means you cut your
                                    audience in half, it must be avoided if audience size means something
                                    to you. It would just be nice to see something being done on the
                                    client side to use a different port range so people can download if
                                    their ISP is attempting to police their connection.

                                    Also, if users are using firewalls(and if they are not, this is a much
                                    bigger problem), they had to give permission for ipodder in the first
                                    place to make it functional. If they use a more sophisticated firewall
                                    and have no idea how to use it, then they really shouldn't be using
                                    that sophisticated firewall at all.

                                    And having a torrent open on your machine does not "open it up to the
                                    world". If that were the case, it would not be widely used. Especially
                                    if you assume it's "geeky".

                                    In the end, yes, there are bittorrent-only podcasts. And there will be
                                    more. But not if the client disables it by default. That would be a
                                    sad day for everyone. Especially end-users. Podcasters as well. As it
                                    stands, the choices are clear. Find a sweet deal with a provider, PAY
                                    up the wazoo for bandwidth, pay a high fee or use a free service that
                                    may change tomorrow or limit you in various, unpredictable ways. All
                                    of this while bittorrent is standing in front of us, it's jaw agape
                                    and it's hands waving in the air with a look of "what are you guys
                                    waiting for?" on it's face. Bittorrent bypasses so much of this
                                    reliance on so many others, free or otherwise (and we all know it's
                                    almost always otherwise in the end). The only thing it relies on is
                                    it's participants. (users, providers)



                                    ilk..
                                  • Dennis A. Amith
                                    I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about
                                      bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our bittorrents will be
                                      posted.

                                      If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and downloads would probably be
                                      very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in track of things especially
                                      if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.

                                      Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if they'll start a PodCast
                                      section... j/k.

                                      - daa
                                      --
                                      Metro Media Complex: Podcast Edition
                                      www.nt2099.com/MMC/
                                      info@...
                                    • ILK
                                      ... who worry about ... bittorrents will be ... downloads would probably be ... track of things especially ... they ll start a PodCast ... I DO have a
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis A. Amith" <nt2099@s...> wrote:
                                        > I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us
                                        who worry about
                                        > bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                        bittorrents will be
                                        > posted.
                                        > If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and
                                        downloads would probably be
                                        > very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in
                                        track of things especially
                                        > if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.
                                        > Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if
                                        they'll start a PodCast
                                        > section... j/k.
                                        > - daa

                                        I DO have a podcast-only tracker, now. Currently 3 podcasts, several
                                        "episodes" from 2 of them and another on the way(?). And I think it
                                        could handle a few other podcasts. (drop me a mail if any of you want
                                        to try it out)

                                        The suprnova thing could happen if someone here knows how to get it to
                                        work past the upload page. I've tried many times. You can post
                                        podcasts to the "misc" category. If anyone can figure out how to
                                        upload to suprnova (and make it work), please let us all know.

                                        ilk..
                                      • Ross Wm. Rader
                                        ... Bingo. The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy and
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Gregory Narain wrote:

                                          > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
                                          > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

                                          Bingo.

                                          The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                          reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                          and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                          smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                          via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                          terms that the audience understands.

                                          That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                          the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                          audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                          at cross-purpose to yourself.


                                          --





                                          -rwr



                                          Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                          Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                          My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                        • Ross Wm. Rader
                                          ... Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution, these don t always give
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            ecomputerd wrote:
                                            > Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                                            > aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                                            > compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                                            > complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                                            > offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                                            > my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                                            > complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                                            > complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                                            > does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                                            > value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                                            > authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                                            > catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                                            Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I
                                            understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution,
                                            these don't always give users the best solution. Where possible, I
                                            always prefer that the developers I work with err on the side of
                                            assuming and abstracting more complexity rather than embracing the
                                            simplest, most expedient solution. It is often these extra mile
                                            solutions that make for killer differentiation because it often brings
                                            about real utility for end users.

                                            That being said, I've often implemented the most readily available
                                            solution to be met with less than stellar, but timely nonetheless,
                                            results ;)

                                            --





                                            -rwr



                                            Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                            Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                            My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                          • lerhaupt
                                            ... There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software. Podcasters should
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > Bingo.
                                              >
                                              > The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                              > reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                              > and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                              > smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                              > via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                              > terms that the audience understands.
                                              >
                                              > That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                              > the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                              > audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                              > at cross-purpose to yourself.
                                              >

                                              There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                              bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                              Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                              new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                              comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                              they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                              of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                              as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                              As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                              media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                              to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                              getting there.
                                            • Ross Wm. Rader
                                              ... Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their current support for HTTP transfers... ... I *hear* you, but I m still not convinced
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 21, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                lerhaupt wrote:

                                                > There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                                > bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                                Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their
                                                current support for HTTP transfers...

                                                > Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                                > new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                                > comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                                > they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                                > of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                                > as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                                I *hear* you, but I'm still not convinced that the incentives line up
                                                until the client developers deal with the usability issues - not in any
                                                serious sense anyway...

                                                > As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                                > media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                                > to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                                > getting there.

                                                20mb per podcast? I don't think I subscribe to any that are that small :)
                                                --





                                                -rwr



                                                Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                                Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                                My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.