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Re: [podcasters] Re: bandwidth (BitTorrent Convo)

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  • Pete Prodoehl
    ... I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate BitTorrent *and* make it so it s transparent to the user *and* have it disabled by default
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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      Eric Rice wrote:
      > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
      >
      >>I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
      >
      >
      > I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
      > quadrupled.
      >
      > My big mission is getting podcasting consumed by non-nerds. Put BT in front of them? No
      > way. I still feel lost when I do the BT thing, like 'it doesn't feel right'. And I'm a geek!
      >
      > However, is it reasonable to think that podcasting software could be BT programs? And
      > would the notion of how BT works make people nervous? I finally understand how it works,
      > and I will always suffer, since I'm a laptop user. Never online long. Never consistent
      > connection. By definition then, I become a leech.

      I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
      BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
      disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

      My main computer sits at home all day mostly idle on a cable modem doing
      nothing. If it could help out Adam or Dawn and Drew, I'd like to pitch in.

      But again, I'm a hardcore geek type and BitTorrent doesn't scare me...
      and my own podcast is so small (in file size, release frequency, and
      listenership) that BitTorrent would probably be useless for me.

      Pete
    • Pete Prodoehl
      ... Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;) Pete
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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        Gregory Narain wrote:
        >
        > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
        > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

        Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;)

        Pete
      • Lucas Gonze
        ... It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet up. Something like: ...with the time spec above
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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          On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:

          > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
          > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
          > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
          > teach them to make holes.
          >
          > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
          > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
          > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
          > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
          > on all fronts.

          It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
          up. Something like:
          <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>

          ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
        • Lucas Gonze
          ... Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition. - Lucas
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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            On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Eric Rice wrote:
            > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
            >
            >
            > I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
            > quadrupled.

            Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but
            then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition.

            - Lucas
          • Pete Prodoehl
            ... Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That s the thing about BitTorrent, it depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right? Going the
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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              Lucas Gonze wrote:
              >
              > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
              >
              >>I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
              >>does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
              >>that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
              >>teach them to make holes.
              >>
              >>I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
              >>the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
              >>for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
              >>0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
              >>on all fronts.
              >
              >
              > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
              > up. Something like:
              > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
              >
              > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.

              Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That's the thing about BitTorrent, it
              depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right?

              Going the super-geeky route, build me a podcasting client that can
              accept notifications and then ping it to make it join the BitTorrent fun
              at an appropriate time.

              So at 2:18 AM it gets notified that a new Daily Source Code is available
              and it then initiates the whole BitTorrent thing, in unison with all the
              other zombies out there doing the same thing.

              Crazy? I dunno...

              Pete
            • Jason @ Insomnia Radio
              Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled. Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT angle does
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled.
                Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT
                angle does not simplify Podcasting.

                Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                a necessity....

                Just my two cents.


                On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                >
                > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
                > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
                > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
                > > teach them to make holes.
                > >
                > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
                > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
                > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
                > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
                > > on all fronts.
                >
                > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
                > up. Something like:
                > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                >
                > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
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                >
                >
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                >
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                --
                Jason Evangelho
                Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                RSS Feed:
                http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                IndieFeed Podcast
                http://www.indiefeed.com
                AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                MSN: jason_evangelho@...

                "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                strong to be broken."
                ~Samuel Johnson
              • ecomputerd
                While I believe that both standard download and BT download should both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant value. 1) BT allows the
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                  both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                  value.

                  1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                  available bandwidth with popularity.

                  2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                  equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                  it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                  larger files get casted.

                  3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                  almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                  BitTorrent can handle this today.

                  4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                  applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                  so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                  adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                  that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                  therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                  are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                  (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                  the "standards".)

                  5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                  not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                  is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                  incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                  will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                  not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                  running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                  BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                  recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.

                  Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                  won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.

                  I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.

                  Comments?



                  --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                  <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                  > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                  subscribers doubled.
                  > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                  BT
                  > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                  >
                  > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                  > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                  > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                  less of
                  > a necessity....
                  >
                  > Just my two cents.
                  >
                  >
                  > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                  BitTorrent..
                  > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                  training people
                  > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                  to try to
                  > > > teach them to make holes.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                  gain value as
                  > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                  and dandy
                  > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                  with
                  > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                  all formats
                  > > > on all fronts.
                  > >
                  > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                  to meet
                  > > up. Something like:
                  > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                  > >
                  > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > >
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Jason Evangelho
                  > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                  > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                  > RSS Feed:
                  > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                  > IndieFeed Podcast
                  > http://www.indiefeed.com
                  > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                  > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                  > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                  >
                  > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                  > strong to be broken."
                  > ~Samuel Johnson
                • Harold Johnson
                  I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just doesn t feel right when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet I also think
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just "doesn't feel right"
                    when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet
                    I also think there's an opportunity for podcasting to rebrand the idea
                    of filesharing in the public's imagination. The RIAA and MPAA have
                    been pounding the notion that there's no place for BitTorrent and
                    other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                    utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                    the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                    So how do we do that? The most downloaded podcasts could certainly
                    benefit from the torrenting technology, but we've already covered
                    that. How about this: We know that BitTorrent is perfect for
                    distributing large files. So why not use it to get only the really
                    huge packages out there, like a package of podcasts for newcomers?

                    I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                    the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                    their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                    right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                    in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                    our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                    (Okay, maybe that was a really obvious use. Hey, I tried.)

                    Harold

                    On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                    > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                    > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                    > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                    > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                    > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                    > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                    > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                    > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                    > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                  • Eric Rice
                    I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd. And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                      I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd.

                      And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big boys.

                      Eric :-)
                      EricRice.com




                      --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                      > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                      > value.
                      >
                      > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                      > available bandwidth with popularity.
                      >
                      > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                      > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                      > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                      > larger files get casted.
                      >
                      > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                      > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                      > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                      >
                      > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                      > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                      > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                      > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                      > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                      > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                      > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                      > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                      > the "standards".)
                      >
                      > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                      > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                      > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                      > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                      > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                      > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                      > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                      > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                      > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                      >
                      > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                      > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                      >
                      > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.
                      >
                      > Comments?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                      > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                      > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                      > subscribers doubled.
                      > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                      > BT
                      > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                      > >
                      > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                      > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                      > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                      > less of
                      > > a necessity....
                      > >
                      > > Just my two cents.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                      > BitTorrent..
                      > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                      > training people
                      > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                      > to try to
                      > > > > teach them to make holes.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                      > gain value as
                      > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                      > and dandy
                      > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                      > with
                      > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                      > all formats
                      > > > > on all fronts.
                      > > >
                      > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                      > to meet
                      > > > up. Something like:
                      > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                      > > >
                      > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > >
                      > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > Jason Evangelho
                      > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                      > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                      > > RSS Feed:
                      > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                      > > IndieFeed Podcast
                      > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                      > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                      > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                      > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                      > >
                      > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                      > > strong to be broken."
                      > > ~Samuel Johnson
                    • ecomputerd
                      Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward compatibility so that at its basic
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                        Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                        aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                        compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                        complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                        offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                        my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                        complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                        complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                        does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                        value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                        authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                        catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                        Enjoying the conversation!

                        --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Rice" <eric@e...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass
                        appeal. Beyond the nerd.
                        >
                        > And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                        boys.
                        >
                        > Eric :-)
                        > EricRice.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download
                        should
                        > > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                        > > value.
                        > >
                        > > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                        > > available bandwidth with popularity.
                        > >
                        > > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is
                        not
                        > > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts.
                        Nor is
                        > > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger
                        and
                        > > larger files get casted.
                        > >
                        > > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                        > > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                        > > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                        > >
                        > > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                        > > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of
                        6 or
                        > > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                        > > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                        > > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                        > > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that
                        there
                        > > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                        > > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                        > > the "standards".)
                        > >
                        > > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters)
                        should
                        > > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article
                        suggests)
                        > > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people
                        have
                        > > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because
                        people
                        > > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent
                        will
                        > > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will
                        be
                        > > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients.
                        IMHO,
                        > > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                        > > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                        > >
                        > > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but
                        it
                        > > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                        > >
                        > > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage
                        discussion.
                        > >
                        > > Comments?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                        > > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                        > > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                        > > subscribers doubled.
                        > > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The
                        whole
                        > > BT
                        > > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                        > > >
                        > > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                        > > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                        > > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                        > > less of
                        > > > a necessity....
                        > > >
                        > > > Just my two cents.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze
                        <lgonze@p...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                        > > BitTorrent..
                        > > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                        > > training people
                        > > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in
                        general
                        > > to try to
                        > > > > > teach them to make holes.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                        > > gain value as
                        > > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine
                        and
                        > > and dandy
                        > > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the
                        newbies
                        > > with
                        > > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts
                        in
                        > > all formats
                        > > > > > on all fronts.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT
                        users
                        > > to meet
                        > > > > up. Something like:
                        > > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ________________________________
                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > > Service.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > Jason Evangelho
                        > > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                        > > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                        > > > RSS Feed:
                        > > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                        > > > IndieFeed Podcast
                        > > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                        > > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                        > > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                        > > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                        > > >
                        > > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are
                        too
                        > > > strong to be broken."
                        > > > ~Samuel Johnson
                      • Thomas Gaume
                        ... Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent: From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth: One of the biggest issues facing
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 3, 2004
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                          --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                          <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                          > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                          > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                          > a necessity....

                          Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:

                          From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:

                          "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                          the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                          downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                          media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                          material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                          Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                          software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                          simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                          file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                          trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                          file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."

                          Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                          associated with your podcast the two would never match.

                          2cents

                          Tom @ ipodio
                        • Olivier
                          morning, ... It s funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each country are against sharing, when it s obvious for parents to teach their
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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                            'morning,

                            > other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                            > utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                            > the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                            It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                            country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                            their children they must share their toys with their friends.
                            You're right Harold, we have to show that sharing is good, not only for
                            toys, but for music, culture, history, knowledge, too.

                            > I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                            > the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                            > their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                            > right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                            > in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                            > our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                            I think you're right in the way that the net is big enough so the memory
                            of any show can stay alive for ages, and still be available from
                            anywhere in the world. And BitTorrent is a great way to achieve that. If
                            one source is missing, the archive is still available.

                            On a more computer way, the RAID 5 is something like that. Your datas
                            are spread over 5 Hard disk. And if one disk crashes, your data are
                            still available !

                            Olivier
                          • Nicole Simon
                            ... Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?) It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should all
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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                              Olivier <olisker@...> wrote:
                              >It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                              >country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                              >their children they must share their toys with their friends.

                              Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?)

                              It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should
                              all work together in teams, how this is the way to go and everybody must do
                              so - when one of the more experiment posters said 'hm. In my job, this is
                              treated as cheating.' Even though an older poster, he was still in school,
                              and he is right. 9-13 years of our lives in german school business you are
                              educated that working toghether is cheating and is punished.

                              How do we expect people to develop a sense for the good within? But it
                              comes out more or less in every person that they want to share, to connect.
                              Must be deep within our nature. Which again shows: There is something wrong
                              in forbidding it.

                              Nicole
                            • Danny Ayers
                              On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd wrote: On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing, whatever the RIAA
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                                On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing,
                                whatever the RIAA etc say.

                                > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                                > applicable.

                                Absolutely. RSS 2.0 is only simple when presented as a sugar coating
                                around a stack of technologies that are far from simple: XML, XML
                                Namespaces, Unicode, HTTP, XML *over* HTTP (see RFC 3023 - simple?)
                                URIs, the HTML family. This presentation is fine and dandy when
                                everything is down the middle for simple applications leaning towards
                                English-centric applications where a lot of problems are skirted
                                thanks to ASCII. After all, it is conceptually simple, and should
                                certainly be simple for the end users. But even in these circumstances
                                it's easy for things to go wrong, with the result that invalid feeds
                                are ten a penny and aggregator developers have to jump through hoops
                                to make them readable.

                                Swallowing the marketing without chewing and using simplicity as
                                justification for poor design is not a good idea, and inevitably leads
                                to problems further down the line: e.g. remember the "silent data loss
                                problem"?

                                Cheers,
                                Danny.

                                --

                                http://dannyayers.com
                              • tacomancini
                                Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                  Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our
                                  service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting community.
                                  Hopefully torrent will be fully integrated in the ipodder software, and its use will be made
                                  transparent so as not to
                                  confuse new podcast adopters.
                                  We have a very simple Blog solution built in our system, that allows beginners to get going
                                  as quickly as possible. We also offer a quickcast solution similar to dircaster
                                  shadydentist.com/wordpress/archives/2004/10/13/dircaster-01/ That creates a podcast
                                  automatically when the user uploads a mp3 file, and uses the id3 tags of the mp3 to
                                  create the blog entry.
                                  The path to the mp3s for the user is libsyn.com/media/<username>/<filename>
                                  so that integration with external blogs is not broken.

                                  --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Gaume" <gaume@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                  > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                  > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                  > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                                  > > a necessity....
                                  >
                                  > Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:
                                  >
                                  > From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:
                                  >
                                  > "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                                  > the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                                  > downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                                  > media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                                  > material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                                  > Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                                  > software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                                  > simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                                  > file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                                  > trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                                  > file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."
                                  >
                                  > Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                                  > associated with your podcast the two would never match.
                                  >
                                  > 2cents
                                  >
                                  > Tom @ ipodio
                                • Olivier
                                  Hi, ... I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn t know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I didn t
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                    Hi,

                                    > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                    > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
                                    > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

                                    I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn't
                                    know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I
                                    didn't even notice some of them was torrent files. I just see that the
                                    progress bar was growing.. just like any download :) Could it be
                                    simpler ?

                                    Olivier
                                  • ILK
                                    ... have it ... appreciate it. Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation. (perhaps later this evening?) .. but I think having it
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                      > > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                      > > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and*
                                      have it
                                      > > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd
                                      appreciate it.

                                      Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation.
                                      (perhaps later this evening?)

                                      .. but

                                      I think having it disabled by default is the opposite of making
                                      things easy for the end users when there are bittorrent podcasts
                                      out there. They will subscribe and assume the podcast is dead.
                                      That's user UNfriendly.

                                      On the other hand, for reasons I will go into later if there's
                                      any interest, bittorrent is proving to be troublesome. It's not
                                      100 percent clear to me at this point, but subscriptions seem
                                      (note: I have not tested it personally) to increase once one
                                      switches from BT to http.

                                      This could have something to do with ISP port blocking. One solution
                                      to this problem would be for the ipodder developers to choose a
                                      different block of ports (anything but the known default ones) in the
                                      next release for bittorrent in ipodder, etc. I'd be interested in
                                      being a part of testing this if there are any takers. My podcast, for
                                      now, is bittorrent only. If I switch over to http, it would be served
                                      locally from one of my machines and I would be using a server that
                                      does not generate a report. I will be setting up a more "significant"
                                      (read:headaches) web server in the near future in order to see the
                                      differences. But first I'd like to see what happens when ipodder
                                      chooses a non-standard port range for the bittorrent aspect of the
                                      program. Try 6999-7099. I suggested that range to a friend that was
                                      seeing his bittorrents suddenly non-functional a few weeks ago. Now
                                      he has no issues.

                                      But finally, most importantly, please do not disable bittorent
                                      by default. We're not all rich out here.

                                      The idea that bittorrent should be avoided because of it's association
                                      with piracy (arrrgh! matey) is a bit silly. Good way to keep it that
                                      way, however. MP3 is associated with piracy as well. Maybe we should
                                      all go with OGG. But wait, you say, isn't that an arguement against
                                      bittorrent?? Well, no. Read this and roll it around in your mouth.
                                      Sniff it, observe it as it swirls in the glass in front of your face....

                                      "According to British Web analysis firm CacheLogic, BitTorrent
                                      accounts for an astounding 35 percent of all the traffic on the
                                      Internet -- more than all other peer-to-peer programs combined -- and
                                      dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages."

                                      Source: http://in.tech.yahoo.com/041103/137/2ho4i.html

                                      Pay key attention to that last part...

                                      "dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages"

                                      This aint for geeks only, and to make the assumption that this is
                                      not a widely used protocol is simply not the truth. And please note
                                      that it doesn't say 35% of users, it says 35% of traffic. That's
                                      significant.


                                      BUT, in defense of what others have said here, if using bottorrent
                                      as CURRENTLY implemented in podcast clients means you cut your
                                      audience in half, it must be avoided if audience size means something
                                      to you. It would just be nice to see something being done on the
                                      client side to use a different port range so people can download if
                                      their ISP is attempting to police their connection.

                                      Also, if users are using firewalls(and if they are not, this is a much
                                      bigger problem), they had to give permission for ipodder in the first
                                      place to make it functional. If they use a more sophisticated firewall
                                      and have no idea how to use it, then they really shouldn't be using
                                      that sophisticated firewall at all.

                                      And having a torrent open on your machine does not "open it up to the
                                      world". If that were the case, it would not be widely used. Especially
                                      if you assume it's "geeky".

                                      In the end, yes, there are bittorrent-only podcasts. And there will be
                                      more. But not if the client disables it by default. That would be a
                                      sad day for everyone. Especially end-users. Podcasters as well. As it
                                      stands, the choices are clear. Find a sweet deal with a provider, PAY
                                      up the wazoo for bandwidth, pay a high fee or use a free service that
                                      may change tomorrow or limit you in various, unpredictable ways. All
                                      of this while bittorrent is standing in front of us, it's jaw agape
                                      and it's hands waving in the air with a look of "what are you guys
                                      waiting for?" on it's face. Bittorrent bypasses so much of this
                                      reliance on so many others, free or otherwise (and we all know it's
                                      almost always otherwise in the end). The only thing it relies on is
                                      it's participants. (users, providers)



                                      ilk..
                                    • Dennis A. Amith
                                      I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                        I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about
                                        bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our bittorrents will be
                                        posted.

                                        If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and downloads would probably be
                                        very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in track of things especially
                                        if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.

                                        Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if they'll start a PodCast
                                        section... j/k.

                                        - daa
                                        --
                                        Metro Media Complex: Podcast Edition
                                        www.nt2099.com/MMC/
                                        info@...
                                      • ILK
                                        ... who worry about ... bittorrents will be ... downloads would probably be ... track of things especially ... they ll start a PodCast ... I DO have a
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                          --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis A. Amith" <nt2099@s...> wrote:
                                          > I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us
                                          who worry about
                                          > bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                          bittorrents will be
                                          > posted.
                                          > If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and
                                          downloads would probably be
                                          > very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in
                                          track of things especially
                                          > if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.
                                          > Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if
                                          they'll start a PodCast
                                          > section... j/k.
                                          > - daa

                                          I DO have a podcast-only tracker, now. Currently 3 podcasts, several
                                          "episodes" from 2 of them and another on the way(?). And I think it
                                          could handle a few other podcasts. (drop me a mail if any of you want
                                          to try it out)

                                          The suprnova thing could happen if someone here knows how to get it to
                                          work past the upload page. I've tried many times. You can post
                                          podcasts to the "misc" category. If anyone can figure out how to
                                          upload to suprnova (and make it work), please let us all know.

                                          ilk..
                                        • Ross Wm. Rader
                                          ... Bingo. The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy and
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                                            Gregory Narain wrote:

                                            > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
                                            > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

                                            Bingo.

                                            The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                            reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                            and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                            smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                            via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                            terms that the audience understands.

                                            That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                            the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                            audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                            at cross-purpose to yourself.


                                            --





                                            -rwr



                                            Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                            Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                            My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                          • Ross Wm. Rader
                                            ... Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution, these don t always give
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                                              ecomputerd wrote:
                                              > Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                                              > aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                                              > compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                                              > complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                                              > offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                                              > my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                                              > complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                                              > complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                                              > does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                                              > value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                                              > authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                                              > catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                                              Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I
                                              understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution,
                                              these don't always give users the best solution. Where possible, I
                                              always prefer that the developers I work with err on the side of
                                              assuming and abstracting more complexity rather than embracing the
                                              simplest, most expedient solution. It is often these extra mile
                                              solutions that make for killer differentiation because it often brings
                                              about real utility for end users.

                                              That being said, I've often implemented the most readily available
                                              solution to be met with less than stellar, but timely nonetheless,
                                              results ;)

                                              --





                                              -rwr



                                              Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                              Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                              My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                            • lerhaupt
                                              ... There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software. Podcasters should
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 20, 2004
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                                                > Bingo.
                                                >
                                                > The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                                > reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                                > and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                                > smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                                > via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                                > terms that the audience understands.
                                                >
                                                > That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                                > the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                                > audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                                > at cross-purpose to yourself.
                                                >

                                                There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                                bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                                Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                                new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                                comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                                they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                                of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                                as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                                As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                                media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                                to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                                getting there.
                                              • Ross Wm. Rader
                                                ... Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their current support for HTTP transfers... ... I *hear* you, but I m still not convinced
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 21, 2004
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                                                  lerhaupt wrote:

                                                  > There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                                  > bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                                  Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their
                                                  current support for HTTP transfers...

                                                  > Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                                  > new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                                  > comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                                  > they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                                  > of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                                  > as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                                  I *hear* you, but I'm still not convinced that the incentives line up
                                                  until the client developers deal with the usability issues - not in any
                                                  serious sense anyway...

                                                  > As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                                  > media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                                  > to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                                  > getting there.

                                                  20mb per podcast? I don't think I subscribe to any that are that small :)
                                                  --





                                                  -rwr



                                                  Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                                  Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                                  My weblog: http://www.byte.org
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