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Re: [podcasters] bandwidth

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  • Pete Prodoehl
    ... Hmmm, I don t know of anyone audioblogging/podcasting only with BitTorrent... Want to be the first? ;) Pete
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 3 8:48 AM
      Lucas Gonze wrote:
      >
      > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
      >

      Hmmm, I don't know of anyone audioblogging/podcasting only with
      BitTorrent... Want to be the first? ;)

      Pete
    • Eric Rice
      ... I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners quadrupled. My big mission is getting podcasting consumed by
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 3 9:20 AM
        --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?


        I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
        quadrupled.

        My big mission is getting podcasting consumed by non-nerds. Put BT in front of them? No
        way. I still feel lost when I do the BT thing, like 'it doesn't feel right'. And I'm a geek!

        However, is it reasonable to think that podcasting software could be BT programs? And
        would the notion of how BT works make people nervous? I finally understand how it works,
        and I will always suffer, since I'm a laptop user. Never online long. Never consistent
        connection. By definition then, I become a leech.

        Stigma stigma!

        Eric
      • Geek News
        There is a good piece on this over at www.ipodio.com as I said in my last show I just think it doesn t scale well. If their are not enough seeds it does not
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 3 9:52 AM
          There is a good piece on this over at www.ipodio.com as I said in my last
          show I just think it doesn't scale well. If their are not enough seeds it
          does not make it worth it. Their is a shows that I unsubscribed from a show
          that was being pushed by bittorrent that took over a hour via because they
          are trying to push upstream on their broadband connection a show that is 25
          megs and only had 1 seed.


          _____

          From: Eric Rice [mailto:eric@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:21 AM
          To: podcasters@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [podcasters] Re: bandwidth (BitTorrent Convo)



          --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?


          I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their
          listeners
          quadrupled.

          My big mission is getting podcasting consumed by non-nerds. Put BT in front
          of them? No
          way. I still feel lost when I do the BT thing, like 'it doesn't feel right'.
          And I'm a geek!

          However, is it reasonable to think that podcasting software could be BT
          programs? And
          would the notion of how BT works make people nervous? I finally understand
          how it works,
          and I will always suffer, since I'm a laptop user. Never online long. Never
          consistent
          connection. By definition then, I become a leech.

          Stigma stigma!

          Eric





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        • Steve Garfield
          ... I sorta understand how BT works and that s what makes me nervous. ;-) I think the whole idea of opening up your computer to the world would make anyone
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 3 10:05 AM
            On Dec 3, 2004, at 12:20 PM, Eric Rice wrote:
            >
            > would the notion of how BT works make people nervous? I finally
            > understand how it works,
            > and I will always suffer, since I'm a laptop user. Never online long.
            > Never consistent
            > connection. By definition then, I become a leech.

            I sorta understand how BT works and that's what makes me nervous. ;-)

            I think the whole idea of opening up your computer to the world would
            make anyone anxious.


            --------- [ Web Site ] ---------
            Steve Garfield
            http://stevegarfield.com
          • Gregory Narain
            I d also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent.. does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We re training people that those alerts
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3 10:23 AM
              I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
              does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
              that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
              teach them to make holes.

              I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
              the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
              for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
              0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
              on all fronts.

              I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
              even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

              Just some more thoughts.

              Greg

              --
              http://beercasting.com
              Served Fresh and Frost (Almost) Every Single Damned Day!

              Start Your Own Beercast Today!

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            • Pete Prodoehl
              ... I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate BitTorrent *and* make it so it s transparent to the user *and* have it disabled by default
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 3 11:17 AM
                Eric Rice wrote:
                > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
                >
                >>I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
                >
                >
                > I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
                > quadrupled.
                >
                > My big mission is getting podcasting consumed by non-nerds. Put BT in front of them? No
                > way. I still feel lost when I do the BT thing, like 'it doesn't feel right'. And I'm a geek!
                >
                > However, is it reasonable to think that podcasting software could be BT programs? And
                > would the notion of how BT works make people nervous? I finally understand how it works,
                > and I will always suffer, since I'm a laptop user. Never online long. Never consistent
                > connection. By definition then, I become a leech.

                I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
                disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

                My main computer sits at home all day mostly idle on a cable modem doing
                nothing. If it could help out Adam or Dawn and Drew, I'd like to pitch in.

                But again, I'm a hardcore geek type and BitTorrent doesn't scare me...
                and my own podcast is so small (in file size, release frequency, and
                listenership) that BitTorrent would probably be useless for me.

                Pete
              • Pete Prodoehl
                ... Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;) Pete
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 3 11:18 AM
                  Gregory Narain wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
                  > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

                  Yes and no, all depends on your goals. ;)

                  Pete
                • Lucas Gonze
                  ... It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet up. Something like: ...with the time spec above
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 3 1:18 PM
                    On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:

                    > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
                    > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
                    > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
                    > teach them to make holes.
                    >
                    > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
                    > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
                    > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
                    > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
                    > on all fronts.

                    It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
                    up. Something like:
                    <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>

                    ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                  • Lucas Gonze
                    ... Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition. - Lucas
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 3 1:23 PM
                      On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Eric Rice wrote:
                      > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'm curious -- are there any BitTorrrent-only audiobloggers yet?
                      >
                      >
                      > I forgot who told me that when they went from BitTorrent-only to MP3, their listeners
                      > quadrupled.

                      Not a surprise! Doing a BT-only show is a big raised middle finger, but
                      then again giving the finger to the world is an honorable tradition.

                      - Lucas
                    • Pete Prodoehl
                      ... Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That s the thing about BitTorrent, it depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right? Going the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3 1:46 PM
                        Lucas Gonze wrote:
                        >
                        > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                        >
                        >>I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
                        >>does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
                        >>that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
                        >>teach them to make holes.
                        >>
                        >>I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
                        >>the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
                        >>for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
                        >>0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
                        >>on all fronts.
                        >
                        >
                        > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
                        > up. Something like:
                        > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                        >
                        > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.

                        Yup, good, if not geeky idea... That's the thing about BitTorrent, it
                        depends on people all wanting the file *at the same time* right?

                        Going the super-geeky route, build me a podcasting client that can
                        accept notifications and then ping it to make it join the BitTorrent fun
                        at an appropriate time.

                        So at 2:18 AM it gets notified that a new Daily Source Code is available
                        and it then initiates the whole BitTorrent thing, in unison with all the
                        other zombies out there doing the same thing.

                        Crazy? I dunno...

                        Pete
                      • Jason @ Insomnia Radio
                        Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled. Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT angle does
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 3 2:05 PM
                          Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my subscribers doubled.
                          Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole BT
                          angle does not simplify Podcasting.

                          Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                          He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                          charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                          a necessity....

                          Just my two cents.


                          On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                          >
                          > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to BitTorrent..
                          > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're training people
                          > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general to try to
                          > > teach them to make holes.
                          > >
                          > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to gain value as
                          > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and and dandy
                          > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies with
                          > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in all formats
                          > > on all fronts.
                          >
                          > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users to meet
                          > up. Something like:
                          > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                          >
                          > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          --
                          Jason Evangelho
                          Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                          http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                          RSS Feed:
                          http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                          IndieFeed Podcast
                          http://www.indiefeed.com
                          AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                          Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                          MSN: jason_evangelho@...

                          "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                          strong to be broken."
                          ~Samuel Johnson
                        • ecomputerd
                          While I believe that both standard download and BT download should both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant value. 1) BT allows the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 3 4:15 PM
                            While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                            both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                            value.

                            1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                            available bandwidth with popularity.

                            2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                            equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                            it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                            larger files get casted.

                            3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                            almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                            BitTorrent can handle this today.

                            4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                            applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                            so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                            adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                            that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                            therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                            are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                            (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                            the "standards".)

                            5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                            not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                            is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                            incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                            will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                            not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                            running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                            BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                            recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.

                            Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                            won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.

                            I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.

                            Comments?



                            --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                            <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                            > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                            subscribers doubled.
                            > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                            BT
                            > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                            >
                            > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                            > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                            > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                            less of
                            > a necessity....
                            >
                            > Just my two cents.
                            >
                            >
                            > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                            wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                            BitTorrent..
                            > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                            training people
                            > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                            to try to
                            > > > teach them to make holes.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                            gain value as
                            > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                            and dandy
                            > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                            with
                            > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                            all formats
                            > > > on all fronts.
                            > >
                            > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                            to meet
                            > > up. Something like:
                            > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                            > >
                            > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > >
                            > > ADVERTISEMENT
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Jason Evangelho
                            > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                            > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                            > RSS Feed:
                            > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                            > IndieFeed Podcast
                            > http://www.indiefeed.com
                            > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                            > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                            > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                            >
                            > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                            > strong to be broken."
                            > ~Samuel Johnson
                          • Harold Johnson
                            I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just doesn t feel right when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet I also think
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 3 4:37 PM
                              I agree with Eric, more or less; BitTorrent just "doesn't feel right"
                              when it comes to matching the simplicity of the iPodder clients. Yet
                              I also think there's an opportunity for podcasting to rebrand the idea
                              of filesharing in the public's imagination. The RIAA and MPAA have
                              been pounding the notion that there's no place for BitTorrent and
                              other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                              utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                              the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                              So how do we do that? The most downloaded podcasts could certainly
                              benefit from the torrenting technology, but we've already covered
                              that. How about this: We know that BitTorrent is perfect for
                              distributing large files. So why not use it to get only the really
                              huge packages out there, like a package of podcasts for newcomers?

                              I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                              the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                              their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                              right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                              in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                              our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                              (Okay, maybe that was a really obvious use. Hey, I tried.)

                              Harold

                              On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                              > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                              > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                              > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                              > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                              > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                              > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                              > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                              > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                              > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                            • Eric Rice
                              I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd. And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 3 5:00 PM
                                I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass appeal. Beyond the nerd.

                                And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big boys.

                                Eric :-)
                                EricRice.com




                                --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download should
                                > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                                > value.
                                >
                                > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                                > available bandwidth with popularity.
                                >
                                > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is not
                                > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts. Nor is
                                > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger and
                                > larger files get casted.
                                >
                                > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                                > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                                > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                                >
                                > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                                > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of 6 or
                                > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                                > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                                > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                                > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that there
                                > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                                > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                                > the "standards".)
                                >
                                > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters) should
                                > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article suggests)
                                > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people have
                                > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because people
                                > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent will
                                > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will be
                                > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients. IMHO,
                                > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                                > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                                >
                                > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but it
                                > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                                >
                                > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage discussion.
                                >
                                > Comments?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                                > subscribers doubled.
                                > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The whole
                                > BT
                                > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                                > >
                                > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                                > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                                > less of
                                > > a necessity....
                                > >
                                > > Just my two cents.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze <lgonze@p...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                                > BitTorrent..
                                > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                                > training people
                                > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in general
                                > to try to
                                > > > > teach them to make holes.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                                > gain value as
                                > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine and
                                > and dandy
                                > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the newbies
                                > with
                                > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts in
                                > all formats
                                > > > > on all fronts.
                                > > >
                                > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT users
                                > to meet
                                > > > up. Something like:
                                > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                                > > >
                                > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                > > >
                                > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ________________________________
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                                > > >
                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > Service.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Jason Evangelho
                                > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                                > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                                > > RSS Feed:
                                > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                                > > IndieFeed Podcast
                                > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                                > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                                > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                                > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                                > >
                                > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are too
                                > > strong to be broken."
                                > > ~Samuel Johnson
                              • ecomputerd
                                Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward compatibility so that at its basic
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 3 5:19 PM
                                  Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                                  aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                                  compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                                  complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                                  offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                                  my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                                  complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                                  complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                                  does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                                  value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                                  authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                                  catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                                  Enjoying the conversation!

                                  --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Rice" <eric@e...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I agree with all points except #4. Simplicity is *vital* for mass
                                  appeal. Beyond the nerd.
                                  >
                                  > And mass appeal of micro-content? THAT is what shakes up the big
                                  boys.
                                  >
                                  > Eric :-)
                                  > EricRice.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "ecomputerd" <ecomputerd@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > While I believe that both "standard" download and BT download
                                  should
                                  > > both be available on all enclosures, BT still adds significant
                                  > > value.
                                  > >
                                  > > 1) BT allows the exponential growth of and automatic scaling of
                                  > > available bandwidth with popularity.
                                  > >
                                  > > 2) The "emergence" of new bandwidth-agnostic hosting services is
                                  not
                                  > > equivalent to unlimited bandwidth available from those hosts.
                                  Nor is
                                  > > it equivalent to free bandwidth six months from now as larger
                                  and
                                  > > larger files get casted.
                                  > >
                                  > > 3) Imagine 50,000 subcribers to a one-hour video program at an
                                  > > almost VCR quality of 0.5GB per file. Or even 5000 subscribers.
                                  > > BitTorrent can handle this today.
                                  > >
                                  > > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                                  > > applicable. Having just written an aggregator, the existence of
                                  6 or
                                  > > so different "standards" is by definition not simple. Claiming
                                  > > adding one thing to one of the RSS standards automatically makes
                                  > > that particular version of the RSS "standard" less simple and
                                  > > therefore should not be implemented is ignoring the fact that
                                  there
                                  > > are multiple "standards" of RSS that aggregators need to support
                                  > > (although this of course doesn't imply we can anything to any of
                                  > > the "standards".)
                                  > >
                                  > > 5) Claiming BT is associated with piracy and we (podcasters)
                                  should
                                  > > not associate ourselves with that (as the linked article
                                  suggests)
                                  > > is ignoring a perfectly suited technology because some people
                                  have
                                  > > incorrect connotations. Legal podcasting will grow because
                                  people
                                  > > will want to listen and watch. In addition (IMHO) BitTorrent
                                  will
                                  > > not be directly "associated" with podcasting because users will
                                  be
                                  > > running Aggregators and Podcatchers, not BitTorrent clients.
                                  IMHO,
                                  > > BitTorrent will become the "transport" of podcasting, as
                                  > > recognizable to the general public as FTP, HTTP and TCP.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bandwidth-agnostic hosting services will have their place, but
                                  it
                                  > > won't be for reliable large-file, numerous-subscriber vidcasting.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't mean this to be rude at all. I hope to encourage
                                  discussion.
                                  > >
                                  > > Comments?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                  > > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                  > > > Originally my show was BT-only. upon switching to Mp3, my
                                  > > subscribers doubled.
                                  > > > Remember what RSS stands for: Really Simple Syndication. The
                                  whole
                                  > > BT
                                  > > > angle does not simplify Podcasting.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Have a look at http://www.ipodio.com/2004/12/01.html#a13
                                  > > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                  > > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming
                                  > > less of
                                  > > > a necessity....
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Just my two cents.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:18:49 -1000 (HST), Lucas Gonze
                                  <lgonze@p...>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Gregory Narain wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > I'd also have to wonder how Windows XP with SP2 reacts to
                                  > > BitTorrent..
                                  > > > > > does the user get a ton of alerts and warnings. We're
                                  > > training people
                                  > > > > > that those alerts are bad.. it would not be good in
                                  general
                                  > > to try to
                                  > > > > > teach them to make holes.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have to agree with Harold also that BitTorrent tends to
                                  > > gain value as
                                  > > > > > the size of the distribution network grows. This is fine
                                  and
                                  > > and dandy
                                  > > > > > for Adam Curry with 50K listeners, but what about the
                                  newbies
                                  > > with
                                  > > > > > 0-200? We need to encourage the deployment of Podcasts
                                  in
                                  > > all formats
                                  > > > > > on all fronts.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It would help smaller podcasters to arrange a time for BT
                                  users
                                  > > to meet
                                  > > > > up. Something like:
                                  > > > > <enclosure meetup="1,*,*,*,*"/>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ...with the time spec above being the same as for crontab.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ________________________________
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/podcasters/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > > podcasters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                  > > Service.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > Jason Evangelho
                                  > > > Insomnia Radio: Powered by iPodio
                                  > > > http://hardcoreinsomniaradio.blogspot.com
                                  > > > RSS Feed:
                                  > > > http://webpages.charter.net/jevangelho01/IR.xml
                                  > > > IndieFeed Podcast
                                  > > > http://www.indiefeed.com
                                  > > > AIM: hardcoreinsomnia
                                  > > > Skype: hardcoreinsomnia
                                  > > > MSN: jason_evangelho@m...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "The chains of habit are too weak to be felt until they are
                                  too
                                  > > > strong to be broken."
                                  > > > ~Samuel Johnson
                                • Thomas Gaume
                                  ... Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent: From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth: One of the biggest issues facing
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 3 10:06 PM
                                    --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                    <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                    > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                    > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                                    > a necessity....

                                    Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:

                                    From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:

                                    "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                                    the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                                    downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                                    media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                                    material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                                    Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                                    software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                                    simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                                    file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                                    trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                                    file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."

                                    Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                                    associated with your podcast the two would never match.

                                    2cents

                                    Tom @ ipodio
                                  • Olivier
                                    morning, ... It s funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each country are against sharing, when it s obvious for parents to teach their
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 4 1:42 AM
                                      'morning,

                                      > other filesharing programs in today's world, yet here we have one such
                                      > utilization (podcasting) that is rapidly taking off, and why not show
                                      > the children that sharing is (and always has been) okay?

                                      It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                                      country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                                      their children they must share their toys with their friends.
                                      You're right Harold, we have to show that sharing is good, not only for
                                      toys, but for music, culture, history, knowledge, too.

                                      > I'll give you an example. Let's say new iPodder users are only served
                                      > the latest podcast so that their bandwidth is not overwhelmed with all
                                      > their subscriptions. (Isn't that how some iPodder clients are working
                                      > right now?) If they like your podcast, they'll probably be interested
                                      > in hearing some of your past podcasts. We can provide packages of all
                                      > our archived podcasts and distribute them as torrents.

                                      I think you're right in the way that the net is big enough so the memory
                                      of any show can stay alive for ages, and still be available from
                                      anywhere in the world. And BitTorrent is a great way to achieve that. If
                                      one source is missing, the archive is still available.

                                      On a more computer way, the RAID 5 is something like that. Your datas
                                      are spread over 5 Hard disk. And if one disk crashes, your data are
                                      still available !

                                      Olivier
                                    • Nicole Simon
                                      ... Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?) It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should all
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 4 3:45 AM
                                        Olivier <olisker@...> wrote:
                                        >It's funny to see that RIAA and MPAA and local organisations in each
                                        >country are against sharing, when it's obvious for parents to teach
                                        >their children they must share their toys with their friends.

                                        Oh this quote is a beautiful one. (Do you have a website I could link to?)

                                        It reminds me of a discussion in usenet between people about how we should
                                        all work together in teams, how this is the way to go and everybody must do
                                        so - when one of the more experiment posters said 'hm. In my job, this is
                                        treated as cheating.' Even though an older poster, he was still in school,
                                        and he is right. 9-13 years of our lives in german school business you are
                                        educated that working toghether is cheating and is punished.

                                        How do we expect people to develop a sense for the good within? But it
                                        comes out more or less in every person that they want to share, to connect.
                                        Must be deep within our nature. Which again shows: There is something wrong
                                        in forbidding it.

                                        Nicole
                                      • Danny Ayers
                                        On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd wrote: On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing, whatever the RIAA
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 4 5:00 AM
                                          On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:15:07 -0000, ecomputerd <ecomputerd@...> wrote:

                                          On the sharing issue - well said folks, sharing is a good thing,
                                          whatever the RIAA etc say.

                                          > 4) The matra of "S is for Simple" while valiant is not always
                                          > applicable.

                                          Absolutely. RSS 2.0 is only simple when presented as a sugar coating
                                          around a stack of technologies that are far from simple: XML, XML
                                          Namespaces, Unicode, HTTP, XML *over* HTTP (see RFC 3023 - simple?)
                                          URIs, the HTML family. This presentation is fine and dandy when
                                          everything is down the middle for simple applications leaning towards
                                          English-centric applications where a lot of problems are skirted
                                          thanks to ASCII. After all, it is conceptually simple, and should
                                          certainly be simple for the end users. But even in these circumstances
                                          it's easy for things to go wrong, with the result that invalid feeds
                                          are ten a penny and aggregator developers have to jump through hoops
                                          to make them readable.

                                          Swallowing the marketing without chewing and using simplicity as
                                          justification for poor design is not a good idea, and inevitably leads
                                          to problems further down the line: e.g. remember the "silent data loss
                                          problem"?

                                          Cheers,
                                          Danny.

                                          --

                                          http://dannyayers.com
                                        • tacomancini
                                          Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 4 3:59 PM
                                            Our system currently podcasts only in mp3 format. We intend to integrate torrent in our
                                            service once its use and issues have been agreed upon by the podcasting community.
                                            Hopefully torrent will be fully integrated in the ipodder software, and its use will be made
                                            transparent so as not to
                                            confuse new podcast adopters.
                                            We have a very simple Blog solution built in our system, that allows beginners to get going
                                            as quickly as possible. We also offer a quickcast solution similar to dircaster
                                            shadydentist.com/wordpress/archives/2004/10/13/dircaster-01/ That creates a podcast
                                            automatically when the user uploads a mp3 file, and uses the id3 tags of the mp3 to
                                            create the blog entry.
                                            The path to the mp3s for the user is libsyn.com/media/<username>/<filename>
                                            so that integration with external blogs is not broken.

                                            --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Gaume" <gaume@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Jason @ Insomnia Radio"
                                            > <jasonevangelho@g...> wrote:
                                            > > He makes a good point. With solutions like libsyn.org emerging,
                                            > > charging only for storage space, not bandwidth, BT is becoming less of
                                            > > a necessity....
                                            >
                                            > Read closer my friend, libsyn is based on Bittorrent:
                                            >
                                            > From http://www.libsyn.org/features.php under Unmetered bandwidth:
                                            >
                                            > "One of the biggest issues facing the early pioneers of podcasting is
                                            > the bandwidth usage. We have a planned architecture of distributed
                                            > downloads across multiple servers where the most recent, high-demand
                                            > media files are served from faster, larger pipes, and older, archived
                                            > material is still available, however from lower speed connections.
                                            > Once bit torrent becomes fully integrated into the podcasting
                                            > software, our structure and design will really flourish. It will be as
                                            > simple as a user uploading a media file, say an MP3 for example, the
                                            > file is automatically encoded into a .torrent, tracked by our
                                            > trackers, and seeded on our servers. Once the demand dies down, the
                                            > file is archived where it will still be available via direct download."
                                            >
                                            > Also be aware that they control the RSS feed. So if you have a blog
                                            > associated with your podcast the two would never match.
                                            >
                                            > 2cents
                                            >
                                            > Tom @ ipodio
                                          • Olivier
                                            Hi, ... I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn t know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I didn t
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 5 4:09 AM
                                              Hi,

                                              > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                              > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and* have it
                                              > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd appreciate it.

                                              I llok at the coming jPodder 0.7. It has Azureus built in... I didn't
                                              know there was a bitorrent client. So when I was downloading my feeds, I
                                              didn't even notice some of them was torrent files. I just see that the
                                              progress bar was growing.. just like any download :) Could it be
                                              simpler ?

                                              Olivier
                                            • ILK
                                              ... have it ... appreciate it. Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation. (perhaps later this evening?) .. but I think having it
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 5 12:25 PM
                                                > > I think it is reasonable. If a podcasting client could integrate
                                                > > BitTorrent *and* make it so it's transparent to the user *and*
                                                have it
                                                > > disabled by default but have geeks able to turn it on, I'd
                                                appreciate it.

                                                Not a lot of time here, and I have a lot to add to this conversation.
                                                (perhaps later this evening?)

                                                .. but

                                                I think having it disabled by default is the opposite of making
                                                things easy for the end users when there are bittorrent podcasts
                                                out there. They will subscribe and assume the podcast is dead.
                                                That's user UNfriendly.

                                                On the other hand, for reasons I will go into later if there's
                                                any interest, bittorrent is proving to be troublesome. It's not
                                                100 percent clear to me at this point, but subscriptions seem
                                                (note: I have not tested it personally) to increase once one
                                                switches from BT to http.

                                                This could have something to do with ISP port blocking. One solution
                                                to this problem would be for the ipodder developers to choose a
                                                different block of ports (anything but the known default ones) in the
                                                next release for bittorrent in ipodder, etc. I'd be interested in
                                                being a part of testing this if there are any takers. My podcast, for
                                                now, is bittorrent only. If I switch over to http, it would be served
                                                locally from one of my machines and I would be using a server that
                                                does not generate a report. I will be setting up a more "significant"
                                                (read:headaches) web server in the near future in order to see the
                                                differences. But first I'd like to see what happens when ipodder
                                                chooses a non-standard port range for the bittorrent aspect of the
                                                program. Try 6999-7099. I suggested that range to a friend that was
                                                seeing his bittorrents suddenly non-functional a few weeks ago. Now
                                                he has no issues.

                                                But finally, most importantly, please do not disable bittorent
                                                by default. We're not all rich out here.

                                                The idea that bittorrent should be avoided because of it's association
                                                with piracy (arrrgh! matey) is a bit silly. Good way to keep it that
                                                way, however. MP3 is associated with piracy as well. Maybe we should
                                                all go with OGG. But wait, you say, isn't that an arguement against
                                                bittorrent?? Well, no. Read this and roll it around in your mouth.
                                                Sniff it, observe it as it swirls in the glass in front of your face....

                                                "According to British Web analysis firm CacheLogic, BitTorrent
                                                accounts for an astounding 35 percent of all the traffic on the
                                                Internet -- more than all other peer-to-peer programs combined -- and
                                                dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages."

                                                Source: http://in.tech.yahoo.com/041103/137/2ho4i.html

                                                Pay key attention to that last part...

                                                "dwarfs mainstream traffic like Web pages"

                                                This aint for geeks only, and to make the assumption that this is
                                                not a widely used protocol is simply not the truth. And please note
                                                that it doesn't say 35% of users, it says 35% of traffic. That's
                                                significant.


                                                BUT, in defense of what others have said here, if using bottorrent
                                                as CURRENTLY implemented in podcast clients means you cut your
                                                audience in half, it must be avoided if audience size means something
                                                to you. It would just be nice to see something being done on the
                                                client side to use a different port range so people can download if
                                                their ISP is attempting to police their connection.

                                                Also, if users are using firewalls(and if they are not, this is a much
                                                bigger problem), they had to give permission for ipodder in the first
                                                place to make it functional. If they use a more sophisticated firewall
                                                and have no idea how to use it, then they really shouldn't be using
                                                that sophisticated firewall at all.

                                                And having a torrent open on your machine does not "open it up to the
                                                world". If that were the case, it would not be widely used. Especially
                                                if you assume it's "geeky".

                                                In the end, yes, there are bittorrent-only podcasts. And there will be
                                                more. But not if the client disables it by default. That would be a
                                                sad day for everyone. Especially end-users. Podcasters as well. As it
                                                stands, the choices are clear. Find a sweet deal with a provider, PAY
                                                up the wazoo for bandwidth, pay a high fee or use a free service that
                                                may change tomorrow or limit you in various, unpredictable ways. All
                                                of this while bittorrent is standing in front of us, it's jaw agape
                                                and it's hands waving in the air with a look of "what are you guys
                                                waiting for?" on it's face. Bittorrent bypasses so much of this
                                                reliance on so many others, free or otherwise (and we all know it's
                                                almost always otherwise in the end). The only thing it relies on is
                                                it's participants. (users, providers)



                                                ilk..
                                              • Dennis A. Amith
                                                I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 5 7:00 PM
                                                  I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us who worry about
                                                  bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our bittorrents will be
                                                  posted.

                                                  If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and downloads would probably be
                                                  very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in track of things especially
                                                  if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.

                                                  Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if they'll start a PodCast
                                                  section... j/k.

                                                  - daa
                                                  --
                                                  Metro Media Complex: Podcast Edition
                                                  www.nt2099.com/MMC/
                                                  info@...
                                                • ILK
                                                  ... who worry about ... bittorrents will be ... downloads would probably be ... track of things especially ... they ll start a PodCast ... I DO have a
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 5 7:44 PM
                                                    --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis A. Amith" <nt2099@s...> wrote:
                                                    > I think it would be cool to see a BitTorrent tracker for those of us
                                                    who worry about
                                                    > bandwidth usage and have a schedule on our sites listening when our
                                                    bittorrents will be
                                                    > posted.
                                                    > If anything, it would be great to see a PodCast tracker and
                                                    downloads would probably be
                                                    > very quick. But it would be difficult for the moderator to keep in
                                                    track of things especially
                                                    > if someone posts a podcast with illegal content.
                                                    > Or we can all upload our podcast torrents to suprnova.org and see if
                                                    they'll start a PodCast
                                                    > section... j/k.
                                                    > - daa

                                                    I DO have a podcast-only tracker, now. Currently 3 podcasts, several
                                                    "episodes" from 2 of them and another on the way(?). And I think it
                                                    could handle a few other podcasts. (drop me a mail if any of you want
                                                    to try it out)

                                                    The suprnova thing could happen if someone here knows how to get it to
                                                    work past the upload page. I've tried many times. You can post
                                                    podcasts to the "misc" category. If anyone can figure out how to
                                                    upload to suprnova (and make it work), please let us all know.

                                                    ilk..
                                                  • Ross Wm. Rader
                                                    ... Bingo. The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy and
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 20 7:51 PM
                                                      Gregory Narain wrote:

                                                      > I'm already looking into how to stream our Beercasts so that I can get
                                                      > even more people to listen (that's what it's all really about, right?).

                                                      Bingo.

                                                      The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                                      reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                                      and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                                      smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                                      via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                                      terms that the audience understands.

                                                      That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                                      the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                                      audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                                      at cross-purpose to yourself.


                                                      --





                                                      -rwr



                                                      Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                                      Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                                      My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                                    • Ross Wm. Rader
                                                      ... Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution, these don t always give
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 20 7:58 PM
                                                        ecomputerd wrote:
                                                        > Simplicity for users is vital for mass appeal, but simplicity for
                                                        > aggregator writers is less so, but I am assuming backward
                                                        > compatibility so that at its basic implementation, it gets no more
                                                        > complicated for podcatcher writers. Extra features can and should be
                                                        > offered to enable more functionality. Even after all
                                                        > my "complaining" about RSS's non-simplicity, it actually is not that
                                                        > complicated. Adding BT is not (or shouldn't be made) more
                                                        > complicated from the podcatchers point of view. Adding *optional* BT
                                                        > does not complicate the podcatcher writer, aside from a new ignored
                                                        > value/element/attribute. It only complicates those podcatcher
                                                        > authors that choose to implement it. Which will (actually: has)
                                                        > catch (caught) on quickly because of demand.

                                                        Simplicity is a user benefit, not a developer benefit. While I
                                                        understand a developers tendency to look for the simplest solution,
                                                        these don't always give users the best solution. Where possible, I
                                                        always prefer that the developers I work with err on the side of
                                                        assuming and abstracting more complexity rather than embracing the
                                                        simplest, most expedient solution. It is often these extra mile
                                                        solutions that make for killer differentiation because it often brings
                                                        about real utility for end users.

                                                        That being said, I've often implemented the most readily available
                                                        solution to be met with less than stellar, but timely nonetheless,
                                                        results ;)

                                                        --





                                                        -rwr



                                                        Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                                        Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                                        My weblog: http://www.byte.org
                                                      • lerhaupt
                                                        ... There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software. Podcasters should
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 20 10:23 PM
                                                          > Bingo.
                                                          >
                                                          > The entire BT discussion has bothered me a little bit for exactly this
                                                          > reason. There has always been an inverse relationship between economy
                                                          > and usability. The most affordable methods always seem to have the
                                                          > smallest reach. Chalk on a sidewalk, handbills on a fencepost, podcasts
                                                          > via BT. If you want to build an audience, you have to do it within the
                                                          > terms that the audience understands.
                                                          >
                                                          > That's not to say that these experiments aren't without merit, in fact
                                                          > the opposite. But I would venture that if you are looking to build an
                                                          > audience and save dollars by using BT, today, you are probably working
                                                          > at cross-purpose to yourself.
                                                          >

                                                          There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                                          bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                                          Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                                          new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                                          comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                                          they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                                          of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                                          as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                                          As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                                          media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                                          to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                                          getting there.
                                                        • Ross Wm. Rader
                                                          ... Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their current support for HTTP transfers... ... I *hear* you, but I m still not convinced
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 21 7:01 AM
                                                            lerhaupt wrote:

                                                            > There is validity to what you say. However, the solution is simply
                                                            > bundling the bit torrent client within the podcast download software.

                                                            Yes, definitely - but it should be at least as transparent as their
                                                            current support for HTTP transfers...

                                                            > Podcasters should always provide both in mp3 and torrent format so the
                                                            > new, uninitiated and inexperienced can download in the most
                                                            > comfortable manner, and for those who regularly frequent podcasts,
                                                            > they just point their enabled aggregator to the torrent feed instead
                                                            > of the mp3 feed. And since joining a feed from an aggregator is just
                                                            > as easy for each, there is virtually no difference.

                                                            I *hear* you, but I'm still not convinced that the incentives line up
                                                            until the client developers deal with the usability issues - not in any
                                                            serious sense anyway...

                                                            > As well, with podcasting just the tip of the iceberg in independent
                                                            > media distribution, I think it won't be long before people really want
                                                            > to push past 20MB per. Simple solutions are necessary and we're
                                                            > getting there.

                                                            20mb per podcast? I don't think I subscribe to any that are that small :)
                                                            --





                                                            -rwr



                                                            Contact info: http://www.blogware.com/profiles/ross
                                                            Skydasher: A great way to start your day
                                                            My weblog: http://www.byte.org
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