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RE: [podcasters] Re: Paris, can you help me fix my RSS?

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  • Ed Alkema
    Did Warner Bros. pay any money to get this done? For people who are still thinkinh what the heck this is about, check http://houseofwaxmovie.warnerbros.com/
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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      Did Warner Bros. pay any money to get this done?
      For people who are still thinkinh what the heck this is about, check
      http://houseofwaxmovie.warnerbros.com/

      and folow the magic podcast link..

      Ed


      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: Russell S. Holliman [mailto:treocast@...]
      >Sent: April 04, 2005 6:41 AM
      >To: podcasters@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [podcasters] Re: Paris, can you help me fix my RSS?
      >
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      >
      >With a custom version of iPodder for both Windows and MAC - clever.
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
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    • Rob Usdin
      Don t forget that downloaded a radio program from the internet could very well be interpreted as downloading an NPR program (or other program) from Audible.
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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        Don't forget that "downloaded a radio program from the internet" could
        very well be interpreted as downloading an NPR program (or other
        program) from Audible. They've been offering a number of radio shows
        as downloadable files for quite a while - and have partnered with a
        number of online vendors to sell MP3 players - like iPods - so that
        people can do just that. If that's a portion of the data in that
        survey - then it's definitely skewed. I personally have a hard time
        believing 29% of people who own MP3 players have actually used a
        podcatcher and downloaded an actual "podcast." Especially considering
        that the podcasts with the largest listenership - like Adam Curry's
        Daily Source Code - are only up in the 80K range of steady subscribers.

        --*Rob
      • PBCliberal
        ... Absolutely. The report is somewhat misleading in its tone, but I still find it astounding, because the concept of audio in managable files that can be
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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          --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Usdin" <rob@u...> wrote:
          >
          > Don't forget that "downloaded a radio program from
          > the internet" could very well be interpreted as
          > downloading an NPR program (or other program) from Audible.

          Absolutely. The report is somewhat misleading in its tone, but I still
          find it astounding, because the concept of audio in managable files
          that can be played back at a whim is the first concept we need to
          establish in the mind of the listener. After they see the sound file
          as a discrete, managable entity, the concept of moving it to a player
          becomes easier.

          Notice, the report doesn't say these folks actually listened on a
          portable listening device:

          "That amounts to more than 6 million adults who have tried this new
          feature that allows internet "broadcasts" to be downloaded
          onto their portable listening device."

          Thats tantamount to saying that 400,000 people have sat in the space
          capsule at the Smithsonian that has the capability to go into space.
        • Bill Kearney
          ... I wouldn t conflate that into being worried about terrestrial broadcasting. Regular OTA broadcasting has it s own share of troubles. Podcasting may or may
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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            > Thank you. The most interesting tidbit to me is that minority use is
            > actually far ahead of non-minority. Given that radio's latest success
            > story is spanish radio, that's not good news for terrestrial broadcasting.

            I wouldn't conflate that into being worried about terrestrial broadcasting.
            Regular OTA broadcasting has it's own share of troubles. Podcasting may or
            may not impact them but I wouldn't use the minority data points as a
            starting reference. That and not all minorities speak spanish.

            This probably has more to do with use of public transportation that anything
            else. Folks with their time spent travelling via public transportation are
            likely to be motivated to find ways to use their time effectively. An mp3
            player is a logical choice and considering the range of prices it's a very
            viable option. It might be fair to say that the minority percentages could
            be the result of this. That and the income data has over 20% unreported.

            The broadband availablity numbers are interesting. Especially when
            downloading at work is considered.

            There are a number of novel ways traditional media could involve itself in
            the offline media consumption market. It remains to be seen if they'll be
            smart enough to get onboard.

            The study didn't really ask that many people (2,201) so I'm not really
            reading much into it.

            -Bill Kearney
          • Bill Kearney
            ... Well, considering the amount of effort it takes to learn to use players that have this ability their stats might not be far off. ... Is this where we
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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              > Don't forget that "downloaded a radio program from the internet" could
              > very well be interpreted as downloading an NPR program (or other
              > program) from Audible. They've been offering a number of radio shows
              > as downloadable files for quite a while - and have partnered with a
              > number of online vendors to sell MP3 players - like iPods - so that
              > people can do just that. If that's a portion of the data in that
              > survey - then it's definitely skewed.

              Well, considering the amount of effort it takes to learn to use players that
              have this ability their stats might not be far off.

              > I personally have a hard time
              > believing 29% of people who own MP3 players have actually used a
              > podcatcher and downloaded an actual "podcast."

              Is this where we divert into the same sort of arguments about what is or
              isn't a weblog? I mean, don't get me wrong but what's the point of arguing
              it? If groups like Pew are noticing it how is this a problem? Sure, some
              stuff isn't 'designed' to be a podcast and other stuff is merely a recording
              of something broadcast or streamed in other formats. But if it's
              extractable for offline use AND people are taking the effort to do so then
              that sure seems like a good thing.

              > Especially considering
              > that the podcasts with the largest listenership - like Adam Curry's
              > Daily Source Code - are only up in the 80K range of steady subscribers.

              That might say more about the appeal of the content then the aptitude of the
              listeners. As in, they may well not like what people that consider
              themselves 'in the know about podcasting' prefer.
            • Sam Curtis Coutin
              ... Without any inside information, I think the answer is yes . Warner is leading the Hollywood podpush with many more to follow no doubt. As mentioned
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                >
                > Did Warner Bros. pay any money to get this done?


                Without any inside information, I think the answer is 'yes'. Warner is
                leading the Hollywood podpush with many more to follow no doubt.
                As mentioned previously, they started sponsoring the Eric Rice Show two
                weeks ago.
                http://www.clickz.com/news/article.php/3491781
                Sam
                www.mysportsradio.com <http://www.mysportsradio.com>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Julian Doncaster (Yahoo1)
                From: Bill KearneyEspecially considering that the podcasts with the largest listenership - like Adam Curry s Daily Source
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                  From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@...>

                  > Especially considering
                  > that the podcasts with the largest listenership - like Adam Curry's
                  > Daily Source Code - are only up in the 80K range of steady subscribers.

                  Where does this figure come from?

                  Julian
                • Craig Patchett
                  ... Take a look at the blog entry I wrote on it at http://www.btscast.com ... basically this survey is a textbook example of bad statistics. Craig
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                    --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Doncaster \(Yahoo1\)"

                    > Where does this figure come from?

                    Take a look at the blog entry I wrote on it at http://www.btscast.com
                    ... basically this survey is a textbook example of bad statistics.

                    Craig

                    *******************

                    Craig Patchett
                    The GodCast Network

                    "Behind the Scenes", the podcast for podcasters: http://www.btscast.com
                  • Rob Usdin
                    ... Adam mentioned on a show that he can tell how many subscribers a show has through the iPodder infrstrusture or some such and mentioned 80K as a figure.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                      I wrote:

                      > Especially considering
                      > that the podcasts with the largest listenership - like Adam Curry's
                      > Daily Source Code - are only up in the 80K range of steady
                      > subscribers.

                      Then Julian wrote:
                      >>Where does this figure come from?<<<

                      Adam mentioned on a show that he can tell how many subscribers a show
                      has through the iPodder infrstrusture or some such and mentioned 80K as
                      a figure. I'm generalizing here....

                      --*Rob
                    • elle_webb
                      ... Craig Is it a textbook case of bad statistics, or a textbook case of media hype? Pew says that 6 million MP3 player users have tried podcasts, which it
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                        --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Patchett" <craig@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Doncaster \(Yahoo1\)"
                        >
                        > > Where does this figure come from?
                        >
                        > Take a look at the blog entry I wrote on it at http://www.btscast.com
                        > ... basically this survey is a textbook example of bad statistics.
                        >
                        > Craig


                        Craig

                        Is it a textbook case of bad statistics, or a textbook case of media hype?

                        Pew says that 6 million MP3 player users have tried podcasts, which it
                        appears to be considering any downloadable audio program. I'm
                        surprised that the numbers aren't even higher on this. (By the way - I
                        don't agree with what Pew is lumping in as a podcast.)

                        Most coverage seems to be interpreting this like you are, that Pew is
                        saying that 6 million people listening to podcasts. I don't see any
                        place, though, that they are saying that these 6 million people are
                        subscribing to podcasts or are regularly listening to podcasts.
                        They're saying that 6 million people have dipped their toes in the
                        water, which seems reasonable.

                        Your guestimate of the regular podcast audience (300,000) seems
                        realistic, but I don't see where this conflicts with Pew's numbers.


                        The "cup is half full" view says that the hype, though inaccurate, may
                        be self-fulfilling.
                      • Geek News
                        With Adam still using the MAC account I have no idea how he came up with that number. We have people in Techpodcasts.com that are using the mac accounts and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                          With Adam still using the MAC account I have no idea how he came up with
                          that number. We have people in Techpodcasts.com that are using the mac
                          accounts and are having a very hard time getting any types of stats.

                          Expect a comment from techpodcasts.com later in the week that will give some
                          small insight on how we are going to giving accurate stat counts to
                          perspective advertisers and the community at large. We think that we can get
                          very close within several percentage points what our actual numbers are as a
                          group. Personally I don't care if the number is 1 or 10 long as I know what
                          that number is, and so long as we are able to verify that number. But the
                          true challenge is to figure out how many are actually listening and that can
                          be a tough nut to track but we are working on it.

                          Talk is cheap stats backed up by log files is king.

                          Todd..


                          > Then Julian wrote:
                          > >>Where does this figure come from?<<<
                          >
                          > Adam mentioned on a show that he can tell how many
                          > subscribers a show has through the iPodder infrstrusture or
                          > some such and mentioned 80K as a figure. I'm generalizing here....
                          >
                          > --*Rob
                          >
                        • Craig Patchett
                          ... hype? ... First, I think they way they have presented the result is exceptionally misleading. The copy on their home page says: More than 6 million
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                            --- In podcasters@yahoogroups.com, "elle_webb" <elle_webb@y...> wrote:

                            > Is it a textbook case of bad statistics, or a textbook case of media
                            hype?
                            >
                            > Pew says that 6 million MP3 player users have tried podcasts, which it
                            > appears to be considering any downloadable audio program. I'm
                            > surprised that the numbers aren't even higher on this. (By the way - I
                            > don't agree with what Pew is lumping in as a podcast.)
                            >
                            > Most coverage seems to be interpreting this like you are, that Pew is
                            > saying that 6 million people listening to podcasts. I don't see any
                            > place, though, that they are saying that these 6 million people are
                            > subscribing to podcasts or are regularly listening to podcasts.
                            > They're saying that 6 million people have dipped their toes in the
                            > water, which seems reasonable.
                            >
                            > Your guestimate of the regular podcast audience (300,000) seems
                            > realistic, but I don't see where this conflicts with Pew's numbers.

                            First, I think they way they have presented the result is
                            exceptionally misleading. The copy on their home page says: "More than
                            6 million American adults have listened to podcasts." That is a far
                            cry from: "More than 6 million American adults have downloaded a
                            podcast or internet radio program so they could listen to it on their
                            digital audio player at a later time," which is the correct
                            intepretation of the response to the survey question. In addition,
                            they're basing this 6 million extrapolation on a survey sample of only
                            208 people, a fact that they fail to to mention unless you dig into
                            the survey report itself. So yes, this is a textbook case of media
                            hype, but it's hype that is being fed either by an intentional
                            misrepresentation of the survey results or just plain bad statistics.
                            I'll give benefit of the doubt here for the moment and go with the latter.

                            Craig
                          • elle_webb
                            ... latter. ... Craig The crux of this seems to be what our idea of what a podcast is vs what Pew is considering a podcast. I think your ideas of what a
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                              > First, I think they way they have presented the result is
                              > exceptionally misleading. The copy on their home page says: "More than
                              > 6 million American adults have listened to podcasts." That is a far
                              > cry from: "More than 6 million American adults have downloaded a
                              > podcast or internet radio program so they could listen to it on their
                              > digital audio player at a later time," which is the correct
                              > intepretation of the response to the survey question. In addition,
                              > they're basing this 6 million extrapolation on a survey sample of only
                              > 208 people, a fact that they fail to to mention unless you dig into
                              > the survey report itself. So yes, this is a textbook case of media
                              > hype, but it's hype that is being fed either by an intentional
                              > misrepresentation of the survey results or just plain bad statistics.
                              > I'll give benefit of the doubt here for the moment and go with the
                              latter.
                              >
                              > Craig

                              Craig

                              The crux of this seems to be what our idea of what a podcast is vs
                              what Pew is considering a podcast.

                              I think your ideas of what a podcast is, is probably pretty close to
                              mine - a collection of audio files in MP3 format, represented by an
                              RSS 2.0 newsfeed with Enclosure elements.

                              The mainstream idea of a podcast seems to be free Internet audio shows
                              that you can download.

                              We have a constant stream of submissions at Podcasting News from
                              people that want to get their "podcast" added to our directory, but
                              they have no RSS feed. Lots of people are creating "video podcasts",
                              too, which seems strange since you can't play video on iPods!

                              These two ideas seem to boil down to a user view, vs. a technical view.

                              We may know what's "right", but it may be counter-productive to try
                              and convince everybody else....
                            • Bill Kearney
                              Is this where we can trot out the Twain quotes? There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. and, my favorite: Get your facts first, and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                Is this where we can trot out the Twain quotes?

                                "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

                                and, my favorite:

                                "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."

                                I think it's more important to notice that organizations like Pew are taking
                                enough notice to begin polling about it. That's a good sign. Whether or
                                not the numbers are statistically valuable is perhaps less important.


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Craig Patchett" <craig@...>
                                > Take a look at the blog entry I wrote on it
                                > ... basically this survey is a textbook example of bad statistics.
                              • Alex Williams
                                Hey, they re looking for PR. And it worked. Dang. It seems like they are getting more attention in this list than Paris Hilton ;). Wait, didn t I hear that
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                  Hey, they're looking for PR. And it worked. Dang. It seems like they are
                                  getting more attention in this list than Paris Hilton ;).

                                  Wait, didn't I hear that Elvis is doing a podcast? Stop the presses!

                                  Alex.





                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Bill Kearney [mailto:wkearney99@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:43 PM
                                  To: podcasters@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [podcasters] Re: Pew report on podcasting




                                  Is this where we can trot out the Twain quotes?

                                  "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

                                  and, my favorite:

                                  "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you
                                  please."

                                  I think it's more important to notice that organizations like Pew are
                                  taking enough notice to begin polling about it. That's a good sign.
                                  Whether or not the numbers are statistically valuable is perhaps less
                                  important.


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Craig Patchett" <craig@...>
                                  > Take a look at the blog entry I wrote on it
                                  > ... basically this survey is a textbook example of bad statistics.




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Bill Kearney
                                  From: Geek News ... Given the use of various p2p techniques (torrent, ed2k, etc) it s not like any real numbers are going to
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                    From: "Geek News" <geek@...>
                                    > Talk is cheap stats backed up by log files is king.

                                    Given the use of various p2p techniques (torrent, ed2k, etc) it's not like
                                    any real numbers are going to emerge. This is a good thing for some, a bad
                                    thing for others. Folks bent on "proving" or controlling consumption aren't
                                    going to be happy. Folks interested in encouraging as wide an audience as
                                    possible while also saving network bandwidth will be delighted. It's all a
                                    matter of balance. But for the control crowd there's really next to nothing
                                    they can "do" without resorting to DRM per-play schemes (and many will try).

                                    The only effective way to gauge consumption is by having the content lead
                                    the audience back to some other form of measurable activity; like a web
                                    page. If you're engaging your audience and you want to track it then have
                                    something to say that brings 'em back to a web page.

                                    But even with web page logs, what do you really know? Sure, you can infer
                                    all sorts of things but most of it just ends up as hype.

                                    -Bill Kearney
                                  • Bill Kearney
                                    ... Counter-productive technical arguments when RSS and XML is involved? NO! SAY IT AIN T SO!
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                      > We may know what's "right", but it may be counter-productive to try
                                      > and convince everybody else....

                                      Counter-productive technical arguments when RSS and XML is involved? NO!
                                      SAY IT AIN'T SO!
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