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PGE interchange south of the border

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  • Doug Polinder
    Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would like to see data for either
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 2, 2006
      Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about
      interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would
      like to see data for either the 50s or the 60s. I am guessing that
      this traffic would be mostly boxcars in those eras, moving via the CN
      from North Van over the Second Narrows Bridge and then to the GN, but
      I would be happy to stand corrected. Would the most likely source of
      PGE 40' box models be Sylvan (NSC ends)? What do you modelers of the
      PGE use for decals or dry transfers, Black Cat and CDS? This is a
      very general question as I need a good place to start doing some
      research on this topic with the goal of coming up with a somewhat
      typical or plausible consist of GN 711/712 between Interbay and
      Vancouver. I recall some Canadian cars moving south through Ferndale
      in the 60s, and I imagine with the historical animosity between the GN
      and the CP that the majority of Canadian interchange traffic on the GN
      would have been CN and PGE.

      Doug Polinder
      Lowell MI
    • Greg Kennelly
      Hello Doug, Prior to 1960 or so, I would expect the sighting of a PGE car in the U.S. would be fairly rare. Up to the July 1959 issue of the Official Railway
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 2, 2006
        Hello Doug,

        Prior to 1960 or so, I would expect the sighting of a PGE car in the
        U.S. would be fairly rare. Up to the July 1959 issue of the Official
        Railway Equipment Register, the PGE listing carried the notation
        "Freight Cars owned are used only in Switching Service with direct
        connections". This note was gone from the ORER by April 1961. The
        January 1956 ORER shows a freight connection with the Great Northern at
        Vancouver, B.C. (via Canadian Pacific, which was a direct connection).
        By July 1959, the ORER shows freight connections to the Great Northern
        at North Vancouver via CP or CN and to the Milwaukee Road at Squamish
        via Foss Launch & Tug Co. In addition, the connection to the GN at
        Vancouver via CP is shown as an Emergency Only connection.

        The first PGE box cars to use NSC ends were those in the 4101 - 4300
        series, built by NSC in January 1958 (8' doors, NSC-3 ends (and, I
        think, diagonal panel roofs)). The 4000-series was built by Canadian
        Car & Foundry in Dec. 1947 and had rectangular panel roofs, 6' doors,
        and a 4/3-3/4 Interim Improved Dreadnaught end.

        The NSC ends appeared earlier on steel reefers: Series 820 - 824 (June
        1954) had NSC-2 ends; series 825 - 834 (Aug 1956) reverted to IID ends
        and series 835 - 844 (July 1958) had NSC-3.

        Greg Kennelly

        Doug Polinder wrote:

        >Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about
        >interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would
        >like to see data for either the 50s or the 60s.
        >
      • Doug Rhodes
        Hello Doug I don t have a source of numerical data but can report on a fair bit of personal observation over the years. Prior to its connection into North
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 2, 2006
          Hello Doug

          I don't have a source of numerical data but can report on a fair bit of
          personal observation over the years.

          Prior to its connection into North Vancouver, the PGE barged cars between
          Squamish and Pier A (CPR) in Coal Harbour (Burrard Inlet), which would be
          handled by CPR from there.

          After the connection (late 1950s) cars could interchange to CNR in North Van
          and thence the rest of North America as you say. However, quite a few of
          them didn't go that way. A barge service ran between PGE/BCR North Vancouver
          across Burrard Inlet to the Great Northern Dock (now BNSF Dock), bypassing
          CNR and the associated interchange charges. In years past, barge service
          also went to the Milwaukee Road, in latter years to Union Pacific via Foss
          in Seattle.

          Doug
          Victoria BC

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Doug Polinder" <mikado3399@...>
          To: <pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:08 PM
          Subject: [pnw_rpm] PGE interchange south of the border


          > Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about
          > interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would
          > like to see data for either the 50s or the 60s. I am guessing that
          > this traffic would be mostly boxcars in those eras, moving via the CN
          > from North Van over the Second Narrows Bridge and then to the GN, but
          > I would be happy to stand corrected. Would the most likely source of
          > PGE 40' box models be Sylvan (NSC ends)? What do you modelers of the
          > PGE use for decals or dry transfers, Black Cat and CDS? This is a
          > very general question as I need a good place to start doing some
          > research on this topic with the goal of coming up with a somewhat
          > typical or plausible consist of GN 711/712 between Interbay and
          > Vancouver. I recall some Canadian cars moving south through Ferndale
          > in the 60s, and I imagine with the historical animosity between the GN
          > and the CP that the majority of Canadian interchange traffic on the GN
          > would have been CN and PGE.
          >
          > Doug Polinder
          > Lowell MI
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Doug Polinder
          Thanks Doug and also Greg for very helpful info on the PGE. I recall an article in R&R (maybe when it was still just _Railfan_) about this connection--was it
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 9, 2006
            Thanks Doug and also Greg for very helpful info on the PGE. I recall
            an article in R&R (maybe when it was still just _Railfan_) about this
            connection--was it about 1956? Seems the good people of North Van
            did not expect the PGE ever to complete its line from Squamish to the
            city, so they went ahead and built gardens, swimming pools, lawns,
            and outbuildings. Imagine their chagrin when the railroad decided to
            complete the line. I don't know if railways have the same right of
            eminent domain in Canada as they do in the US due to status as a
            public utility, but I'm sure it rankled a few when the tracks came
            through their backyard. The NP had a similar line along Lake
            Whatcom: went right through people's beaches to get from Wickersham
            on its Sumas line into Bellingham, but in that case I believe the RR
            was there before the lakefront residents moved in. That water was
            too cold to swim in anyway....

            After the connection, did the PGE pay a switch fee to the CN or
            instead was it indeed a CN linehaul to New Westminster and the GN?
            The charge would have been significantly higher in the latter case, I
            suspect--possibly on the order of several hundred dollars per car.
            Imagine a move of BC lumber from Prince George to, say, Miami--4-5
            railroads and 5000 miles, possibly the longest rail haul on the
            continent (except for, perhaps, a carload of PQ paper going to Mérida
            in the Yucatán Peninsula). In the 1950s would PGE lumber have been
            more likely to travel on flatcars or in boxcars?

            I assume barge connections to the Milwaukee would have been made in
            Seattle.

            Doug Polinder
            Lowell MI

            --- In pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Rhodes" <farronhill@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Doug
            >
            > I don't have a source of numerical data but can report on a fair
            bit of personal observation over the years.
            >
            > Prior to its connection into North Vancouver, the PGE barged cars
            between Squamish and Pier A (CPR) in Coal Harbour (Burrard Inlet),
            which would be handled by CPR from there.
            >
            > After the connection (late 1950s) cars could interchange to CNR in
            North Van and thence the rest of North America as you say. However,
            quite a few of them didn't go that way. A barge service ran between
            PGE/BCR North Vancouver across Burrard Inlet to the Great Northern
            Dock (now BNSF Dock), bypassing CNR and the associated interchange
            charges. In years past, barge service also went to the Milwaukee
            Road, in latter years to Union Pacific via Foss in Seattle.
            >
            > Doug
            > Victoria BC
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Doug Polinder" <mikado3399@...>
            > To: <pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:08 PM
            > Subject: [pnw_rpm] PGE interchange south of the border
            >
            >
            > > Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about
            > > interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would
            > > like to see data for either the 50s or the 60s. I am guessing
            that
            > > this traffic would be mostly boxcars in those eras, moving via
            the CN
            > > from North Van over the Second Narrows Bridge and then to the GN,
            but
            > > I would be happy to stand corrected. Would the most likely
            source of
            > > PGE 40' box models be Sylvan (NSC ends)? What do you modelers of
            the
            > > PGE use for decals or dry transfers, Black Cat and CDS? This is a
            > > very general question as I need a good place to start doing some
            > > research on this topic with the goal of coming up with a somewhat
            > > typical or plausible consist of GN 711/712 between Interbay and
            > > Vancouver. I recall some Canadian cars moving south through
            Ferndale
            > > in the 60s, and I imagine with the historical animosity between
            the GN
            > > and the CP that the majority of Canadian interchange traffic on
            the GN
            > > would have been CN and PGE.
            > >
            > > Doug Polinder
            > > Lowell MI
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Doug Rhodes
            Yes, there was quite a ruckus when the line was extended through to North Vancouver. 1956 sounds about right. The concept of eminent domain does not apply in
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 10, 2006
              Yes, there was quite a ruckus when the line was extended through to North
              Vancouver. 1956 sounds about right.

              The concept of eminent domain does not apply in Canada, although in certain
              circumstances public agencies can expropriate land at fair market value if
              agreement with landowners cannot be reached any other way. Land has been
              acquired for railway purposes this way as well.

              However, the right of way in North and West Vancouver was owned outright by
              the PGE, so the good people who extended their gardens etc were actually
              trespassing. British Columbia has a Torrens (land registry) system of land
              titles, so there is no concept of "adverse possession" - no amount of
              habitual use of someone else's land over the years gives the user property
              rights - it is the title on file at the registry that determines ownership.
              Hence, the political ruckus over losing those gardens etc was interesting,
              but those folks with the encroachments had no right to the land.

              Others would have to comment on the exact nature of the billing by CN - I've
              been told it was very substantial and hence the barging operation across
              Burrard Inlet remained very financially viable.

              Someone else has indicated that PGE cars would not have been seen in the
              rest of North America in that era to the same extent as today, and perhaps
              they could comment on the loading methods. In a more general way (not
              specific to PGE) finished lumber tended to travel in boxcars. Bigger timber
              (too big to load by hand?) was seen on flat cars. Although forklifts etc
              were around, a lot of lumber was still being loaded by hand in the 1950s.

              Foss also served the isolated MILW lines on the Olympic Peninsula and at
              Bellingham, but my assumption was the same as yours, that cars from BC made
              the interchange in Seattle. Just an assumption though, and I certainly stand
              to be corrected there!

              Doug
              Victoria BC

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Doug Polinder" <mikado3399@...>
              To: <pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:41 PM
              Subject: [pnw_rpm] Re: PGE interchange south of the border


              Thanks Doug and also Greg for very helpful info on the PGE. I recall
              an article in R&R (maybe when it was still just _Railfan_) about this
              connection--was it about 1956? Seems the good people of North Van
              did not expect the PGE ever to complete its line from Squamish to the
              city, so they went ahead and built gardens, swimming pools, lawns,
              and outbuildings. Imagine their chagrin when the railroad decided to
              complete the line. I don't know if railways have the same right of
              eminent domain in Canada as they do in the US due to status as a
              public utility, but I'm sure it rankled a few when the tracks came
              through their backyard. The NP had a similar line along Lake
              Whatcom: went right through people's beaches to get from Wickersham
              on its Sumas line into Bellingham, but in that case I believe the RR
              was there before the lakefront residents moved in. That water was
              too cold to swim in anyway....

              After the connection, did the PGE pay a switch fee to the CN or
              instead was it indeed a CN linehaul to New Westminster and the GN?
              The charge would have been significantly higher in the latter case, I
              suspect--possibly on the order of several hundred dollars per car.
              Imagine a move of BC lumber from Prince George to, say, Miami--4-5
              railroads and 5000 miles, possibly the longest rail haul on the
              continent (except for, perhaps, a carload of PQ paper going to Mérida
              in the Yucatán Peninsula). In the 1950s would PGE lumber have been
              more likely to travel on flatcars or in boxcars?

              I assume barge connections to the Milwaukee would have been made in
              Seattle.

              Doug Polinder
              Lowell MI

              --- In pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Rhodes" <farronhill@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Doug
              >
              > I don't have a source of numerical data but can report on a fair
              bit of personal observation over the years.
              >
              > Prior to its connection into North Vancouver, the PGE barged cars
              between Squamish and Pier A (CPR) in Coal Harbour (Burrard Inlet),
              which would be handled by CPR from there.
              >
              > After the connection (late 1950s) cars could interchange to CNR in
              North Van and thence the rest of North America as you say. However,
              quite a few of them didn't go that way. A barge service ran between
              PGE/BCR North Vancouver across Burrard Inlet to the Great Northern
              Dock (now BNSF Dock), bypassing CNR and the associated interchange
              charges. In years past, barge service also went to the Milwaukee
              Road, in latter years to Union Pacific via Foss in Seattle.
              >
              > Doug
              > Victoria BC
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Doug Polinder" <mikado3399@...>
              > To: <pnw_rpm@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:08 PM
              > Subject: [pnw_rpm] PGE interchange south of the border
              >
              >
              > > Would anyone be willing to direct me to a source of info about
              > > interchange between the PGE and points south into the US. I would
              > > like to see data for either the 50s or the 60s. I am guessing
              that
              > > this traffic would be mostly boxcars in those eras, moving via
              the CN
              > > from North Van over the Second Narrows Bridge and then to the GN,
              but
              > > I would be happy to stand corrected. Would the most likely
              source of
              > > PGE 40' box models be Sylvan (NSC ends)? What do you modelers of
              the
              > > PGE use for decals or dry transfers, Black Cat and CDS? This is a
              > > very general question as I need a good place to start doing some
              > > research on this topic with the goal of coming up with a somewhat
              > > typical or plausible consist of GN 711/712 between Interbay and
              > > Vancouver. I recall some Canadian cars moving south through
              Ferndale
              > > in the 60s, and I imagine with the historical animosity between
              the GN
              > > and the CP that the majority of Canadian interchange traffic on
              the GN
              > > would have been CN and PGE.
              > >
              > > Doug Polinder
              > > Lowell MI
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >







              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Greg Kennelly
              In the early 1950s, most lumber moved on flat cars. As I understand the AAR car forwarding rules, the PGE would have been required to load a foreign car, if
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 10, 2006
                In the early 1950s, most lumber moved on flat cars. As I understand the
                AAR car forwarding rules, the PGE would have been required to load a
                foreign car, if available, before loading one of their own for an
                interchange movement. Again in the early 1950s, the restriction on
                using PGE cars in Switching Service only with direct connections would
                keep their cars pretty much in the greater Vancouver area or Prince
                George (CN connection), possibly stretched to Seattle via the Milwaukee
                Road and the Union Pacific some time after 1956. PGE cars would be
                unlikely to have ventured further afield until the Switching Service
                restriction was removed - some time between July 1959 and April 1961.

                A PGE wall map I have (undated but post-1958 as it shows the Dawson
                Creek and Fort St. John Subdivisions) shows barge connections to both
                the Milwaukee Road (via Foss Launch & Tug) and the Union Pacific (via
                Island Tug & Barge) in Seattle. Neither of these two barge connections
                are listed in the Official Railway Equipment Register up to January 1956
                and both are shown in July 1959. I don't have copies of anything
                between these two dates.

                Cheers,
                Greg Kennelly

                Doug Polinder wrote:

                > In the 1950s would PGE lumber have been
                >more likely to travel on flatcars or in boxcars?
                >
                >I assume barge connections to the Milwaukee would have been made in
                >Seattle.
                >
                >Doug Polinder
                >Lowell MI
                >
              • Bob Thompson
                I grew up in WEST Vancouver where the gardens, sheds and garages were built on the supposedly abandoned right-of-way. Len Norris, a well known political
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 10, 2006
                  I grew up in WEST Vancouver where the gardens, sheds and garages were
                  built on the supposedly abandoned right-of-way. Len Norris, a well
                  known political cartoonist of the era, did some absolutely hilarious
                  cartoons about the PGE rebuilding through people's yards and living
                  rooms! His annual compendiums are available very inexpensively from
                  used book stores.

                  Bob Thompson
                  North Saanich, BC

                  > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:41:22 -0000
                  > From: "Doug Polinder" <mikado3399@...>
                  > Subject: Re: PGE interchange south of the border
                  >
                  > Thanks Doug and also Greg for very helpful info on the PGE. I recall
                  > an article in R&R (maybe when it was still just _Railfan_) about this
                  > connection--was it about 1956? Seems the good people of North Van
                  > did not expect the PGE ever to complete its line from Squamish to the
                  > city, so they went ahead and built gardens, swimming pools, lawns,
                  > and outbuildings. Imagine their chagrin when the railroad decided to
                  > complete the line. I don't know if railways have the same right of
                  > eminent domain in Canada as they do in the US due to status as a
                  > public utility, but I'm sure it rankled a few when the tracks came
                  > through their backyard. The NP had a similar line along Lake
                  > Whatcom: went right through people's beaches to get from Wickersham
                  > on its Sumas line into Bellingham, but in that case I believe the RR
                  > was there before the lakefront residents moved in. That water was
                  > too cold to swim in anyway....
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