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Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET

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  • zach
    I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter how many promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we all know
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 2, 2006
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      I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter how many promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we all know that it is a fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.




      jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
      Besides, why bother to get healed?
      Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
      Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with the Lord?

      Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting God (after his stint here)
      Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?

      Why see a doctor?

      "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
      Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully believes in the "healing" powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or treatment?



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Romeo Macapobre
      To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ; Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
      Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET


      > Does prayer work (for healing)?

      why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective from the
      start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable environment where
      our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we look for the
      cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic defect. if we
      fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene. we also fail
      to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for healing then
      s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using government
      resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless people are
      hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and survive to tell
      the tale ..


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Romeo Macapobre
      what do you think about near death experiences? max ... -- apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com]. apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 2, 2006
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        what do you think about near death experiences?
        max


        2006/4/3, zach <zachssecret@...>:
        >
        > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter
        > how many promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
        > all know that it is a fallacy and no one really knows what comes after
        > death.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
        > Besides, why bother to get healed?
        > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
        > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with the Lord?
        >
        > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting God (after
        > his stint here)
        > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
        >
        > Why see a doctor?
        >
        > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
        > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully believes
        > in the "healing" powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
        > treatment?
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Romeo Macapobre
        > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ; Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
        > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com <http://reuters.com/>- Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
        >
        >
        > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
        >
        > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective from the
        > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable environment
        > where
        > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we look for
        > the
        > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic defect.
        > if we
        > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene. we also
        > fail
        > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for healing
        > then
        > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
        > government
        > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless people are
        > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and survive to
        > tell
        > the tale ..
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
        >
        >
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        --
        apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
        apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eric sandy fernando
        ... the saying the end justifies the means occurs into my mind. the means could be a product of instinct/reflex, and could also be a case of luck, or a
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
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          >>>what do you think about near death experiences?<<<

          the saying "the end justifies the means" occurs into my mind. the "means" could be a product of instinct/reflex, and could also be a case of luck, or a combination of both, devoid of the so-called "intervention of 'guardian angels'" and other "supernaturals".



          Romeo Macapobre <romeo.macapobre@...> wrote:
          what do you think about near death experiences?
          max


          2006/4/3, zach <zachssecret@...>:
          >
          > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter
          > how many promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
          > all know that it is a fallacy and no one really knows what comes after
          > death.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
          > Besides, why bother to get healed?
          > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
          > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with the Lord?
          >
          > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting God (after
          > his stint here)
          > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
          >
          > Why see a doctor?
          >
          > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
          > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully believes
          > in the "healing" powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
          > treatment?
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Romeo Macapobre
          > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ; Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
          > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com <http://reuters.com/>- Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
          >
          >
          > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
          >
          > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective from the
          > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable environment
          > where
          > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we look for
          > the
          > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic defect.
          > if we
          > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene. we also
          > fail
          > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for healing
          > then
          > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
          > government
          > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless people are
          > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and survive to
          > tell
          > the tale ..
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > a.. Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
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          > ---------------------------------
          > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
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          > ------------------------------
          >



          --
          apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
          apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          http://www.philippineatheists.org/



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        • jose mario sison
          I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the desire to be eternal. The belief that this life is not the life . The life is the afterlife
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 3, 2006
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            I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the desire to be eternal. The belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the afterlife"

            But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes of prayers, then God contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let me illustrate: God knows a person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that prayer. In that case God was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see things "all at once" and therefore God is not all-knowing.

            Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another cans of worm. God is not eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a feature of God.

            Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being. An all-knowing and unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go against his nature. For if he does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction and therefore, cannot exist.

            joma



            zach <zachssecret@...> wrote:
            I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter how many promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we all know that it is a fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.




            jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
            Besides, why bother to get healed?
            Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
            Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with the Lord?

            Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting God (after his stint here)
            Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?

            Why see a doctor?

            "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
            Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully believes in the "healing" powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or treatment?



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Romeo Macapobre
            To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ; Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
            Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET


            > Does prayer work (for healing)?

            why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective from the
            start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable environment where
            our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we look for the
            cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic defect. if we
            fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene. we also fail
            to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for healing then
            s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using government
            resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless people are
            hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and survive to tell
            the tale ..


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            http://www.philippineatheists.org/



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            http://www.philippineatheists.org/



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          • von cortes
            The all-knowingness of god i gather is not really true, if one is to consider what s written on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 4, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one is to consider what's written
              on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-xtian book.

              What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c reads: "... you shall not listen
              to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing
              you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your
              soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare then why must he "test" us
              in order for him to know?

              Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as a scare tactic to capitalize
              on their flock!



              --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
              >
              > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the desire to be eternal. The
              belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the afterlife"
              >
              > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes of prayers, then God
              contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let me illustrate: God knows a
              person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that prayer. In that case God
              was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see things "all at once" and
              therefore God is not all-knowing.
              >
              > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another cans of worm. God is not
              eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a feature of God.
              >
              > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being. An all-knowing and
              unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go against his nature. For if he
              does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction and therefore, cannot
              exist.
              >
              > joma
              >
              >
              >
              > zach <zachssecret@...> wrote:
              > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess no matter how many
              promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we all know that it is a
              fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
              > Besides, why bother to get healed?
              > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
              > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with the Lord?
              >
              > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting God (after his stint here)
              > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
              >
              > Why see a doctor?
              >
              > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
              > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully believes in the "healing"
              powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or treatment?
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Romeo Macapobre
              > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ; Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
              > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power
              of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
              >
              >
              > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
              >
              > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective from the
              > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable environment where
              > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we look for the
              > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic defect. if we
              > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene. we also fail
              > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for healing then
              > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using government
              > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless people are
              > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and survive to tell
              > the tale ..
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              --
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              > a.. Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              >
              > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
              >
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              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger
              with Voice.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
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              > SPONSORED LINKS
              > Atheism Beliefs Religion Beyond belief
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
              >
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              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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            • joma_sison
              Whether God s properties are in agreement with you or not isn t our primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the Christians we have to (at least)
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 4, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Whether God's properties are in agreement with you or not isn't our
                primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the
                Christians we have to (at least) acknowledge what they believe in.
                We even have to give some of our rope -- which is, God exist!

                Anyway, majority of Christians define their God as someone who is
                all-knowing, all powerful, all-present and morally good. These are
                the basic. There are those who are in debate on transcendental
                nature, on freewill, and on the question of who will be saved. Meron
                kasing who claim that they are pre-destined or what they termed "the
                elect". Still, some denomination argues that all of us will be
                saved. Majority believe that Salvation is earned by individual.

                Many, if not all, Christians talks of Heaven (and Hell) with
                certainty. However, on close scrutiny, none of them has the solid
                knowledge of the place (if ever that one exists). They even have a
                varying and contradicting concepts of Hell!

                Our duty (tama ba ang term?) is to show them the contradiction as
                you have laid out in your example. In my opinion, the contradicting
                feature of their God is one of our best bet when discussing with
                well-intentioned Christians. But again, I must emphasize here, we've
                got to know them, of what they believe.

                In other words, to reach an open minded Christian, you have to crawl
                under his skin. It is not easy and in many cases, you will not
                notice any glitter of understanding on their part. But many of them
                are smart and intelligent. The psychological hold of their God in
                them is so tight that it may take some time before what you are
                saying will likely to sink in – if you are fucking lucky.


                joma



                --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "von cortes"
                <element_115x@...> wrote:
                >
                > The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one
                is to consider what's written
                > on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-
                xtian book.
                >
                > What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c
                reads: "... you shall not listen
                > to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the
                LORD your God is testing
                > you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart
                and with all your
                > soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare
                then why must he "test" us
                > in order for him to know?
                >
                > Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as
                a scare tactic to capitalize
                > on their flock!
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison
                <joma_sison@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the
                desire to be eternal. The
                > belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the
                afterlife"
                > >
                > > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes
                of prayers, then God
                > contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let
                me illustrate: God knows a
                > person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that
                prayer. In that case God
                > was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see
                things "all at once" and
                > therefore God is not all-knowing.
                > >
                > > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another
                cans of worm. God is not
                > eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a
                feature of God.
                > >
                > > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being.
                An all-knowing and
                > unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go
                against his nature. For if he
                > does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction
                and therefore, cannot
                > exist.
                > >
                > > joma
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > zach <zachssecret@> wrote:
                > > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess
                no matter how many
                > promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
                all know that it is a
                > fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > jose mario sison <joma_sison@> wrote:
                > > Besides, why bother to get healed?
                > > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
                > > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with
                the Lord?
                > >
                > > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting
                God (after his stint here)
                > > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
                > >
                > > Why see a doctor?
                > >
                > > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@> wrote:
                > > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully
                believes in the "healing"
                > powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
                treatment?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Romeo Macapobre
                > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ;
                Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study
                fails to show healing power
                > of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
                > >
                > >
                > > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
                > >
                > > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective
                from the
                > > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable
                environment where
                > > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we
                look for the
                > > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic
                defect. if we
                > > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene.
                we also fail
                > > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for
                healing then
                > > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
                government
                > > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless
                people are
                > > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and
                survive to tell
                > > the tale ..
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---------
                > --
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > > a.. Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                > >
                > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                Terms of Service.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---------
                > --
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > >
                > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
                Yahoo! Messenger
                > with Voice.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > >
                > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your
                PC and save big.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > SPONSORED LINKS
                > > Atheism Beliefs Religion Beyond belief
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > >
                > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your
                PC and save big.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • von cortes
                Indeed, even amongst themselves they seem to lack interest in ever arriving at a commonality of belief! Being so, it wouldn t be easy (but not impossible) for
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Indeed, even amongst themselves they seem to lack interest in ever arriving at a
                  commonality of belief! Being so, it wouldn't be easy (but not impossible) for us to uphold
                  our 'duty' it would seem. They are just as godamned varied as the common virus, and
                  pretty much like so too.



                  --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "joma_sison" <joma_sison@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Whether God's properties are in agreement with you or not isn't our
                  > primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the
                  > Christians we have to (at least) acknowledge what they believe in.
                  > We even have to give some of our rope -- which is, God exist!
                  >
                  > Anyway, majority of Christians define their God as someone who is
                  > all-knowing, all powerful, all-present and morally good. These are
                  > the basic. There are those who are in debate on transcendental
                  > nature, on freewill, and on the question of who will be saved. Meron
                  > kasing who claim that they are pre-destined or what they termed "the
                  > elect". Still, some denomination argues that all of us will be
                  > saved. Majority believe that Salvation is earned by individual.
                  >
                  > Many, if not all, Christians talks of Heaven (and Hell) with
                  > certainty. However, on close scrutiny, none of them has the solid
                  > knowledge of the place (if ever that one exists). They even have a
                  > varying and contradicting concepts of Hell!
                  >
                  > Our duty (tama ba ang term?) is to show them the contradiction as
                  > you have laid out in your example. In my opinion, the contradicting
                  > feature of their God is one of our best bet when discussing with
                  > well-intentioned Christians. But again, I must emphasize here, we've
                  > got to know them, of what they believe.
                  >
                  > In other words, to reach an open minded Christian, you have to crawl
                  > under his skin. It is not easy and in many cases, you will not
                  > notice any glitter of understanding on their part. But many of them
                  > are smart and intelligent. The psychological hold of their God in
                  > them is so tight that it may take some time before what you are
                  > saying will likely to sink in – if you are fucking lucky.
                  >
                  >
                  > joma
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "von cortes"
                  > <element_115x@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one
                  > is to consider what's written
                  > > on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-
                  > xtian book.
                  > >
                  > > What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c
                  > reads: "... you shall not listen
                  > > to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the
                  > LORD your God is testing
                  > > you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart
                  > and with all your
                  > > soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare
                  > then why must he "test" us
                  > > in order for him to know?
                  > >
                  > > Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as
                  > a scare tactic to capitalize
                  > > on their flock!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison
                  > <joma_sison@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the
                  > desire to be eternal. The
                  > > belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the
                  > afterlife"
                  > > >
                  > > > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes
                  > of prayers, then God
                  > > contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let
                  > me illustrate: God knows a
                  > > person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that
                  > prayer. In that case God
                  > > was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see
                  > things "all at once" and
                  > > therefore God is not all-knowing.
                  > > >
                  > > > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another
                  > cans of worm. God is not
                  > > eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a
                  > feature of God.
                  > > >
                  > > > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being.
                  > An all-knowing and
                  > > unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go
                  > against his nature. For if he
                  > > does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction
                  > and therefore, cannot
                  > > exist.
                  > > >
                  > > > joma
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > zach <zachssecret@> wrote:
                  > > > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess
                  > no matter how many
                  > > promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
                  > all know that it is a
                  > > fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > jose mario sison <joma_sison@> wrote:
                  > > > Besides, why bother to get healed?
                  > > > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
                  > > > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with
                  > the Lord?
                  > > >
                  > > > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting
                  > God (after his stint here)
                  > > > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
                  > > >
                  > > > Why see a doctor?
                  > > >
                  > > > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@> wrote:
                  > > > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully
                  > believes in the "healing"
                  > > powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
                  > treatment?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: Romeo Macapobre
                  > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ;
                  > Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study
                  > fails to show healing power
                  > > of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
                  > > >
                  > > > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective
                  > from the
                  > > > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable
                  > environment where
                  > > > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we
                  > look for the
                  > > > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic
                  > defect. if we
                  > > > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene.
                  > we also fail
                  > > > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for
                  > healing then
                  > > > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
                  > government
                  > > > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless
                  > people are
                  > > > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and
                  > survive to tell
                  > > > the tale ..
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ---------
                  > > --
                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > >
                  > > > a.. Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                  > > >
                  > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  > Terms of Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ---------
                  > > --
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using
                  > Yahoo! Messenger
                  > > with Voice.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your
                  > PC and save big.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > > > Atheism Beliefs Religion Beyond belief
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > pinoy_atheists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your
                  > PC and save big.
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • von cortes
                  Indeed, even amongst themselves they seem to lack interest in ever arriving at a commonality of belief! Being so, it wouldn t be easy (but not impossible) for
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 4, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Indeed, even amongst themselves they seem to lack interest in ever arriving at a
                    commonality of belief! Being so, it wouldn't be easy (but not impossible) for us to uphold
                    our 'duty' it would seem. They are just as godamned varied as the common virus, and
                    pretty much like so too.



                    --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "joma_sison" <joma_sison@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Whether God's properties are in agreement with you or not isn't our
                    > primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the
                    > Christians we have to (at least) acknowledge what they believe in.
                    > We even have to give some of our rope -- which is, God exist!
                    >
                    > Anyway, majority of Christians define their God as someone who is
                    > all-knowing, all powerful, all-present and morally good. These are
                    > the basic. There are those who are in debate on transcendental
                    > nature, on freewill, and on the question of who will be saved. Meron
                    > kasing who claim that they are pre-destined or what they termed "the
                    > elect". Still, some denomination argues that all of us will be
                    > saved. Majority believe that Salvation is earned by individual.
                    >
                    > Many, if not all, Christians talks of Heaven (and Hell) with
                    > certainty. However, on close scrutiny, none of them has the solid
                    > knowledge of the place (if ever that one exists). They even have a
                    > varying and contradicting concepts of Hell!
                    >
                    > Our duty (tama ba ang term?) is to show them the contradiction as
                    > you have laid out in your example. In my opinion, the contradicting
                    > feature of their God is one of our best bet when discussing with
                    > well-intentioned Christians. But again, I must emphasize here, we've
                    > got to know them, of what they believe.
                    >
                    > In other words, to reach an open minded Christian, you have to crawl
                    > under his skin. It is not easy and in many cases, you will not
                    > notice any glitter of understanding on their part. But many of them
                    > are smart and intelligent. The psychological hold of their God in
                    > them is so tight that it may take some time before what you are
                    > saying will likely to sink in – if you are fucking lucky.
                    >
                    >
                    > joma
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "von cortes"
                    > <element_115x@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one
                    > is to consider what's written
                    > > on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-
                    > xtian book.
                    > >
                    > > What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c
                    > reads: "... you shall not listen
                    > > to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the
                    > LORD your God is testing
                    > > you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart
                    > and with all your
                    > > soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare
                    > then why must he "test" us
                    > > in order for him to know?
                    > >
                    > > Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as
                    > a scare tactic to capitalize
                    > > on their flock!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison
                    > <joma_sison@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the
                    > desire to be eternal. The
                    > > belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the
                    > afterlife"
                    > > >
                    > > > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes
                    > of prayers, then God
                    > > contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let
                    > me illustrate: God knows a
                    > > person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that
                    > prayer. In that case God
                    > > was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see
                    > things "all at once" and
                    > > therefore God is not all-knowing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another
                    > cans of worm. God is not
                    > > eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a
                    > feature of God.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being.
                    > An all-knowing and
                    > > unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go
                    > against his nature. For if he
                    > > does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction
                    > and therefore, cannot
                    > > exist.
                    > > >
                    > > > joma
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > zach <zachssecret@> wrote:
                    > > > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess
                    > no matter how many
                    > > promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
                    > all know that it is a
                    > > fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > jose mario sison <joma_sison@> wrote:
                    > > > Besides, why bother to get healed?
                    > > > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
                    > > > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with
                    > the Lord?
                    > > >
                    > > > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting
                    > God (after his stint here)
                    > > > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
                    > > >
                    > > > Why see a doctor?
                    > > >
                    > > > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@> wrote:
                    > > > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully
                    > believes in the "healing"
                    > > powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
                    > treatment?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: Romeo Macapobre
                    > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ;
                    > Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study
                    > fails to show healing power
                    > > of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
                    > > >
                    > > > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective
                    > from the
                    > > > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable
                    > environment where
                    > > > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we
                    > look for the
                    > > > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic
                    > defect. if we
                    > > > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene.
                    > we also fail
                    > > > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for
                    > healing then
                    > > > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
                    > government
                    > > > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless
                    > people are
                    > > > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and
                    > survive to tell
                    > > > the tale ..
                    > > >
                    > > >
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