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Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?

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  • Lew Andrew D. Reyes
    ETERNAL: Honor thy father and mother. - Exodus 20:12 If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2006
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      ETERNAL:

      Honor thy father and mother.
      - Exodus 20:12

      If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
      wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
      life also, he cannot be my disciple.
      - Luke 14:26



      We as humans give what is due to the one worthy of giving it,
      whether it be glory or death. Therefore, it is but righteous that if
      we all came from the same God, it is therefore due to give Him more
      respect than to our loves ones, even to our own life. Meaning, if we
      are faced on a situation choosing whether to believe what our love
      ones say in comparison to what God says, it is but right to believe
      what our Creator says.



      LEW:

      The verse is very clear. It did not ask Man to GIVE MORE RESPECT TO GOD THAN TO YOUR LOVED(HATED?)ONES. IT SAYS HATE 'EM OTHERWISE YOU CAN'T BE A DISCIPLE!!!

      Now Eternal, May I ask you DO YOU HATE YOUR PARENTS/SIBLINGS????

      HATE=ABHOR=DESPISE=SCORN=ABOMINATE=ANATHEMATIZE=CURSE=DETEST=SPURN

      IF YOU DON'T-- THEN YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE A DISCIPLE OF GOD.

      PRETENSION=HYPOCRISY

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eter nal
      Perhaps this would help; Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, John said that he was in the
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 3, 2006
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        Perhaps this would help;

        Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

        John said that he was in the Spirit, meaning, under a vision, when he wrote the Revelation. Therefore, he did not actually or literally saw God, what he saw was the symbolic figure of God, being in the Spirit.

        Notice this, if no human can look straight into the sun using no other than his/her eyes, as it is blinding indeed, what makes you think that John was able to see what he defined? Sunglasses? hahahaha

        Therefore John must indeed be under a vision to be able to see what he saw, which is what God would want him to see, a symbolic figure. Which makes Jesus statements still stands;

        "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

        You'll forgive me if I barely gave any attention to your other verses, as I am quite busy nowadays trying to prepare the design and a simple prototype for my propose application so that I could convince my supporters to invests on my proposal which only gave me 2 months to do so.

        I will attend to your given verses whenever opportunity presents itself.

        Good Day Bro,


        Eternal

        "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
        ETERNAL:
        Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
        mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:

        >and "his countenance was as the
        sun shineth in his strength."



        LEW:
        If you would read the previous verses: Rev1:13-15

        -"...clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golen band"

        -His head and his hair were white like wool, white as snow., eyes like a flame of fire"

        -His feet were like fine brass


        Eternal, if you would just continue reading till the next verse(Rev:1:17) it says:

        "And WHEN I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying to me , " Do not be afraid , I am the first and the last"

        Versus:

        "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

        How was he able to describe in detail the countenance of God? Ans: John said" WHEN I SAW HIM". I think this is more than enough evidence to point out the contradiction. Thanks for sharing this verse. How does your own medicine taste? It's amazing that by using the same bible you use, I can disprove your "bible is contradictionless theory"



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      • eter nal
        LEW: The verse is very clear. It did not ask Man to GIVE MORE RESPECT TO GOD THAN TO YOUR LOVED(HATED?)ONES. IT SAYS HATE EM OTHERWISE YOU CAN T BE A
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 3, 2006
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          LEW:

          The verse is very clear. It did not ask Man to GIVE MORE RESPECT TO GOD THAN TO YOUR LOVED(HATED?)ONES. IT SAYS HATE 'EM OTHERWISE YOU CAN'T BE A DISCIPLE!!!

          Now Eternal, May I ask you DO YOU HATE YOUR PARENTS/SIBLINGS????

          HATE=ABHOR=DESPISE=SCORN=ABOMINATE=ANATHEMATIZE=CURSE=DETEST=SPURN

          IF YOU DON'T-- THEN YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE A DISCIPLE OF GOD.

          PRETENSION=HYPOCRISY

          I think your opinion is getting way out of hand, please don't include my relatives in the discussion.

          In response to your concern, you are mistaken in thinking that Jesus wants us followers to hate our love ones without a just cause. If that was so, this would've never happened;

          Mat 8:14-15 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

          Therefore your implication was only your personal understanding and not exactly what Jesus meant. Learn to understand the scriptures before you make any conclusions bro.


          Eternal


          "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:


          ETERNAL:

          Honor thy father and mother.
          - Exodus 20:12

          If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
          wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
          life also, he cannot be my disciple.
          - Luke 14:26



          We as humans give what is due to the one worthy of giving it,
          whether it be glory or death. Therefore, it is but righteous that if
          we all came from the same God, it is therefore due to give Him more
          respect than to our loves ones, even to our own life. Meaning, if we
          are faced on a situation choosing whether to believe what our love
          ones say in comparison to what God says, it is but right to believe
          what our Creator says.



          LEW:

          The verse is very clear. It did not ask Man to GIVE MORE RESPECT TO GOD THAN TO YOUR LOVED(HATED?)ONES. IT SAYS HATE 'EM OTHERWISE YOU CAN'T BE A DISCIPLE!!!

          Now Eternal, May I ask you DO YOU HATE YOUR PARENTS/SIBLINGS????

          HATE=ABHOR=DESPISE=SCORN=ABOMINATE=ANATHEMATIZE=CURSE=DETEST=SPURN

          IF YOU DON'T-- THEN YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE A DISCIPLE OF GOD.

          PRETENSION=HYPOCRISY

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          http://www.philippineatheists.org/



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          Visit your group "pinoy_atheists" on the web.

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        • eter nal
          Reality is what you make it bro. Your perception of reality does not necessarily mean true to the rest, neither is mine. Which is which, time will tell.
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 3, 2006
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            Reality is what you make it bro. Your perception of reality does not necessarily mean true to the rest, neither is mine. Which is which, time will tell.


            Eternal

            "Lito A. Lampitoc" <ralampitoc@...> wrote:
            this is what I call Harry Potter syndrome, when you read Harry Potter
            book they almost seem to be real, given a real place setting (London)
            but magical characters you will almost believe in most of it's
            consistencies, yet unverified. Funny, a lot people find ways to defend
            some of the inconsistencies with other volumes of the book. But it's
            your choice, you may live in a magical world or face reality.

            eter_nal99 wrote:
            > Well, here are some of the so called "biblical contradictions" and
            > implications that God was evil which I have responded.
            >
            > Let us now see if the verses pointed out are indeed contradictory or
            > unjustified as some claims;
            >
            > I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
            > - Genesis 32:30
            >
            > No man hath seen God at any time.
            > - John 1:18
            >
            >
            > Here are 2 verses. One verse says that a man saw God face to face
            > and did not die, the other says that no one have seen God at any
            > point in time. To those whose intentions were to simply accused,
            > this would be a great opportunity to them. But to those who seeks
            > for the truth, therefore applying a more keen observation, there is
            > an answer to this seemingly contradictory verses.
            >
            > On Genesis 32:30, Jacob announced on Peniel, which he himself named
            > to that place after wrestling to a man until the break of dawn, that
            > he saw God face to face and his life is preserved. Take note that
            > what he wrestled was in the form of a man, not the true form of a
            > God, which is blinding light;
            >
            > Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
            > mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and "his countenance was as the
            > sun shineth in his strength."
            >
            > Even Moses claimed that he had seen God face to face;
            >
            > Exo 33:11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face," as a man
            > speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his
            > servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the
            > tabernacle.
            >
            > But Moses himself later admit on his books that no man can truly see
            > the face of God;
            >
            > Exo 33:20-23 And he said, "Thou canst not see my face: for there
            > shall no man see me, and live." And the LORD said, Behold, there is
            > a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come
            > to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift
            > of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I
            > will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my
            > face shall not be seen.
            >
            > Which was later clarified by the Apostles;
            >
            > Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness "with
            > the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina," and with our
            > fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
            >
            > Therefore, when Jesus said;
            >
            > John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time.
            >
            > His words were indeed justified for no man had truly seen the the
            > face of God. What they have seen are the face of the messengers of
            > God, representing God Himself, speaking on behalf of God. The people
            > who claimed to have seen His face (Jacob, Moses) were expressing the
            > direct experience, as they've understood it, that they've
            > encountered in talking with God.
            >
            > (\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)
            >
            >
            > And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is
            > in heaven.
            > - John 3:13
            >
            > ... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
            > - 2 Kings 2:11
            >
            >
            > Again we have 2 verses which seem to contradict each other. But the
            > question is, are they truly contradictory or just contradictory to
            > those who seeks to discredit the Bible itself? Let's see;
            >
            > 2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether
            > in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot
            > tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven.
            >
            > The verse speaks of third heaven, therefore it is clear that more
            > than one heaven is created. Meaning, Jesus was implying the
            > habitation of God, which are clearly seen on these verses;
            >
            > Psa 33:14 From the "place of his habitation" he looketh upon all
            > the inhabitants of the earth.
            >
            > Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and
            > say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice
            > from "his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his
            > habitation;" he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes,
            > against all the inhabitants of the earth.
            >
            > This is the place where no man have ever ascended, the habitation of
            > God. But, since there are three heavens, the blue sky, the universe,
            > and the Paradise;
            >
            > Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today
            > shalt thou be with me in paradise.
            >
            > Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith
            > unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the
            > tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
            >
            > Elijah was therefore obviously set to either two of these heavens (
            > blue sky, universe), which is which, the Bible does not say. That is
            > aside from the obvious fact that what was said was "and Elijah went
            > up by a whirlwind into heaven" which was what Elisha saw and
            > declared as he seen it, which is Elijah being elevated by a
            > whirlwind into heaven, pertaining to the blue sky.
            >
            > (\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)
            >
            >
            > Honor thy father and mother.
            > - Exodus 20:12
            >
            > If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
            > wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
            > life also, he cannot be my disciple.
            > - Luke 14:26
            >
            > Here are again two verses, which, according to some, are
            > contradictory. However, if we are to observe them more closely, one
            > would understand that given the choice, since by Biblical belief we
            > are all created by the same God, it is therefore God who have the
            > right to earned this respect in comparison to a father and mother,
            > and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, and yes, even his
            > own life.
            >
            > We as humans give what is due to the one worthy of giving it,
            > whether it be glory or death. Therefore, it is but righteous that if
            > we all came from the same God, it is therefore due to give Him more
            > respect than to our loves ones, even to our own life. Meaning, if we
            > are faced on a situation choosing whether to believe what our love
            > ones say in comparison to what God says, it is but right to believe
            > what our Creator says.
            >
            > (\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)o(\o/)
            >
            > Kill Men, Women, and Children
            >
            > "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through
            > the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no
            > mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women
            > and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin
            > your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the
            > seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill
            > its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they
            > went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7
            > NLT)
            >
            > On these verses we are trying to determined whether God was
            > justified to command such an act. Let's see;
            >
            > Eze 8:5-18 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now
            > the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward
            > the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image
            > of jealousy in the entry. He said furthermore unto me, Son of man,
            > seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house
            > of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my
            > sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater
            > abominations.
            >
            > And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked,
            > behold a hole in the wall. Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now
            > in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. And
            > he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they
            > do here. So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping
            > things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of
            > Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
            >
            > And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house
            > of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of
            > Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of
            > incense went up. Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen
            > what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man
            > in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not;
            > the LORD hath forsaken the earth. He said also unto me, Turn thee
            > yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
            >
            > Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which
            > was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for
            > Tammuz. Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man?
            > turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than
            > these. And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house,
            > and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the
            > porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their
            > backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the
            > east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
            >
            > Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a
            > light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations
            > which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence,
            > and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the
            > branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye
            > shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in
            > mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
            >
            > Eze 9:8-9 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I
            > was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord
            > GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out
            > of thy fury upon Jerusalem? Then said he unto me, The iniquity of
            > the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is
            > full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The
            > LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
            >
            >
            > It is therefore clear that the reason for the commandment was
            > because of the abominations the people of Israel have commited
            > against God. The people of Israel have a covenant with God;
            >
            > Exo 19:3-8 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him
            > out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of
            > Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto
            > the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you
            > unto myself.
            >
            > Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my
            > covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all
            > people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom
            > of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt
            > speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the
            > elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words
            > which the LORD commanded him.
            >
            > And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD
            > hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people
            > unto the LORD.
            >
            > Exo 24:7-8 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the
            > audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said
            > will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled
            > it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which
            > the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
            >
            > Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty
            > nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon
            > the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
            >
            > Lev 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful,
            > and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
            >
            >
            > God gave them warnings concerning neglecting this covenant;
            >
            > Lev 26:14-39 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do
            > all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if
            > your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my
            > commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this
            > unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the
            > burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of
            > heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall
            > eat it.
            >
            > And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before
            > your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall
            > flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for all this
            > hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your
            > sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your
            > heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be
            > spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither
            > shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
            >
            > And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I
            > will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
            > I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your
            > children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and
            > your high ways shall be desolate. And if ye will not be reformed by
            > me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
            >
            > Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet
            > seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that
            > shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered
            > together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you;
            > and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And when I
            > have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread
            > in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight:
            > and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
            >
            > And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary
            > unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I,
            > even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall
            > eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye
            > eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images,
            > and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul
            > shall abhor you.
            >
            > And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto
            > desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
            > And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which
            > dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you
            > among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your
            > land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land
            > enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your
            > enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
            >
            > As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest
            > in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And upon them that are left
            > alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands
            > of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them;
            > and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall
            > when none pursueth.
            >
            > And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword,
            > when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your
            > enemies. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your
            > enemies shall eat you up. And they that are left of you shall pine
            > away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the
            > iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
            >
            >
            > Now, is God unrighteous if He made accountable the people who took
            > Him for granted? Let's see;
            >
            > Jer 18:1-12 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
            > Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause
            > thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and,
            > behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made
            > of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again
            > another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
            >
            > Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel,
            > cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the
            > clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of
            > Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and
            > concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy
            > it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their
            > evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
            >
            > And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and
            > concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my
            > sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good,
            > wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to
            > the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus
            > saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a
            > device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and
            > make your ways and your doings good.
            >
            > And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own
            > devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
            >
            >
            > God called upon Israel to redeem itself, they chose not to listen.
            > Therefore, they should face the consequences of their actions. Even
            > then God commanded the men not to touch those with the mark, clearly
            > indicating that those who will be punish are those unrepented
            > rebellious people who chooses to forsake him, saving those who have
            > repented.
            >
            > Therefore, Gos is indeed justified on His actions since He warned
            > these people before allowing such consequences to happen. I will be
            > responding later to the more recent posted, so-called "Biblical
            > contradictions" and "God is evil" implications.
            >
            >
            > Eternal
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Lew Andrew D. Reyes
            Eternal, you claimed that God s TRUE form is that of BLINDING LIGHT according to John s revelation. NOw you re telling me that the Blinding Light is JUST a
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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              Eternal, you claimed that God's TRUE form is that of BLINDING LIGHT according to John's revelation. NOw you're telling me that the Blinding Light is JUST a symbolic figure. How can God's TRUE form now be a symbolic figure??? It seems that you're not even sure of your God's TRUE FORM. And don't tell me humans can't look straight into the the sun with naked eyes- humans CAN do that. Haven't you tried looking at the sun at dawn/dusk? We don't need to wear anything to see the sun directly. You can even clearly see the sun from outer space than here on earth. Still you can't refute the contradiction.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: eter nal
              To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


              Perhaps this would help;

              Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

              John said that he was in the Spirit, meaning, under a vision, when he wrote the Revelation. Therefore, he did not actually or literally saw God, what he saw was the symbolic figure of God, being in the Spirit.

              Notice this, if no human can look straight into the sun using no other than his/her eyes, as it is blinding indeed, what makes you think that John was able to see what he defined? Sunglasses? hahahaha

              Therefore John must indeed be under a vision to be able to see what he saw, which is what God would want him to see, a symbolic figure. Which makes Jesus statements still stands;

              "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

              You'll forgive me if I barely gave any attention to your other verses, as I am quite busy nowadays trying to prepare the design and a simple prototype for my propose application so that I could convince my supporters to invests on my proposal which only gave me 2 months to do so.

              I will attend to your given verses whenever opportunity presents itself.

              Good Day Bro,


              Eternal

              "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
              ETERNAL:
              Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
              mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:

              >and "his countenance was as the
              sun shineth in his strength."



              LEW:
              If you would read the previous verses: Rev1:13-15

              -"...clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golen band"

              -His head and his hair were white like wool, white as snow., eyes like a flame of fire"

              -His feet were like fine brass


              Eternal, if you would just continue reading till the next verse(Rev:1:17) it says:

              "And WHEN I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying to me , " Do not be afraid , I am the first and the last"

              Versus:

              "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

              How was he able to describe in detail the countenance of God? Ans: John said" WHEN I SAW HIM". I think this is more than enough evidence to point out the contradiction. Thanks for sharing this verse. How does your own medicine taste? It's amazing that by using the same bible you use, I can disprove your "bible is contradictionless theory"



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            • Lew Andrew D. Reyes
              Eternal: I think your opinion is getting way out of hand, please don t include my relatives in the discussion. Lew: I m just giving you a an imagined situation
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 5, 2006
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                Eternal:

                I think your opinion is getting way out of hand, please don't include my relatives in the discussion.


                Lew:

                I'm just giving you a an imagined situation where in you can apply what the bible is preaching. And it seems you're choosing which verse you want depending on how it benefits you( or which you think is good). You are neglecting the verse which tells you to hate your relatives.


                Eternal:

                In response to your concern, you are mistaken in thinking that Jesus wants us followers to hate our love ones without a just cause. If that was so, this would've never happened;

                Mat 8:14-15 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.


                Lew:

                It's not about hating your loved ones alone. It's about the contradiction. At one point the bible says to love your parents, at one point the bible says otherwise. It's the contradiction I'm pointing out. The bible says both things: "LOve thy neighbor and Hate thy neighbor"
                These verses are in the bible and you can't ignore them. You claimed that there is no contradiciton but it's clear that there are too many.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eter nal
                ... These verses are in the bible and you can t ignore them. You claimed that there is no contradiciton but it s clear that there are too many.
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 6, 2006
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                  >It's not about hating your loved ones alone. It's about the contradiction. At one point the bible says to love your parents, at one point the bible says otherwise. It's the contradiction I'm pointing out. The bible says both things: "LOve thy neighbor and Hate thy neighbor"
                  These verses are in the bible and you can't ignore them. You claimed that there is no contradiciton but it's clear that there are too many.<


                  Bro, the problem with your observation is that you never point out the situations on where these verses were written. For example, If I said that you must love your neighbor, do I mean that you should embrace their evil as well? Of course not.

                  What I meant when I said "love your neighbor" was for you to show compassion on them in their time of needs. To not reject them when they are in need, which was a righteous thing to do.

                  But, the moment that you agree to their evil thoughts and even entices them to do so, you are no longer loving your neighbor, you are actually spoiling them. Love, in Biblical definition was to guide your fellowmen to righteousness, not to lead them astray.

                  A true friend will always remind you if you are being mislead or going the wrong way, a true enemy will always entice you and even spoil you in your wrongdoings. Not all who smiles at you are your friend, neither does anyone who disagrees with you is your enemy.


                  Eternal


                  "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:

                  Eternal:

                  I think your opinion is getting way out of hand, please don't include my relatives in the discussion.


                  Lew:

                  I'm just giving you a an imagined situation where in you can apply what the bible is preaching. And it seems you're choosing which verse you want depending on how it benefits you( or which you think is good). You are neglecting the verse which tells you to hate your relatives.


                  Eternal:

                  In response to your concern, you are mistaken in thinking that Jesus wants us followers to hate our love ones without a just cause. If that was so, this would've never happened;

                  Mat 8:14-15 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.


                  Lew:

                  It's not about hating your loved ones alone. It's about the contradiction. At one point the bible says to love your parents, at one point the bible says otherwise. It's the contradiction I'm pointing out. The bible says both things: "LOve thy neighbor and Hate thy neighbor"
                  These verses are in the bible and you can't ignore them. You claimed that there is no contradiciton but it's clear that there are too many.

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                • eter nal
                  Of course humans can look to the sun straight at dusk or dawn, since it is not yet shining at its strength. But remember bro, we are discussing the verse which
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 6, 2006
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                    Of course humans can look to the sun straight at dusk or dawn, since it is not yet shining at its strength. But remember bro, we are discussing the verse which says;

                    and "his countenance was as the sun SHINETH IN HIS STRENGTH."

                    at this point, I really doubt it if you can look straight into the sun without aid for it not to blind you momentarily. I've said that it was symbolic because John was under a vision, I thought that this was understood.

                    Well, if you insists that this is a contradiction there's nothing I can do about it of course. Just know that I don't share your views. In my analysis, I've proven that it is not a contradiction basing on the written scriptures themselves, and not on personal opinions.


                    Eternal



                    "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                    Eternal, you claimed that God's TRUE form is that of BLINDING LIGHT according to John's revelation. NOw you're telling me that the Blinding Light is JUST a symbolic figure. How can God's TRUE form now be a symbolic figure??? It seems that you're not even sure of your God's TRUE FORM. And don't tell me humans can't look straight into the the sun with naked eyes- humans CAN do that. Haven't you tried looking at the sun at dawn/dusk? We don't need to wear anything to see the sun directly. You can even clearly see the sun from outer space than here on earth. Still you can't refute the contradiction.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: eter nal
                    To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


                    Perhaps this would help;

                    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

                    John said that he was in the Spirit, meaning, under a vision, when he wrote the Revelation. Therefore, he did not actually or literally saw God, what he saw was the symbolic figure of God, being in the Spirit.

                    Notice this, if no human can look straight into the sun using no other than his/her eyes, as it is blinding indeed, what makes you think that John was able to see what he defined? Sunglasses? hahahaha

                    Therefore John must indeed be under a vision to be able to see what he saw, which is what God would want him to see, a symbolic figure. Which makes Jesus statements still stands;

                    "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                    You'll forgive me if I barely gave any attention to your other verses, as I am quite busy nowadays trying to prepare the design and a simple prototype for my propose application so that I could convince my supporters to invests on my proposal which only gave me 2 months to do so.

                    I will attend to your given verses whenever opportunity presents itself.

                    Good Day Bro,


                    Eternal

                    "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                    ETERNAL:
                    Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
                    mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:

                    >and "his countenance was as the
                    sun shineth in his strength."



                    LEW:
                    If you would read the previous verses: Rev1:13-15

                    -"...clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golen band"

                    -His head and his hair were white like wool, white as snow., eyes like a flame of fire"

                    -His feet were like fine brass


                    Eternal, if you would just continue reading till the next verse(Rev:1:17) it says:

                    "And WHEN I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying to me , " Do not be afraid , I am the first and the last"

                    Versus:

                    "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                    How was he able to describe in detail the countenance of God? Ans: John said" WHEN I SAW HIM". I think this is more than enough evidence to point out the contradiction. Thanks for sharing this verse. How does your own medicine taste? It's amazing that by using the same bible you use, I can disprove your "bible is contradictionless theory"



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • Lew Andrew D. Reyes
                    Then you shouldn t have used that verse and say that THAT IS GOD S TRUE FORM . You knew in the first place that it was only a vision of John but still you
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 6, 2006
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                      Then you shouldn't have used that verse and say that THAT IS "GOD'S TRUE FORM". You knew in the first place that it was only a vision of John but still you used this verse to defend that God cannot be seen. And it so happened that I noticed the deception. Did you think I wouldn't notice? Remember, you were the one who brought up this verse to point out what God's TRUE form is. Too bad it didn't work for me.





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: eter nal
                      To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:41 AM
                      Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


                      Of course humans can look to the sun straight at dusk or dawn, since it is not yet shining at its strength. But remember bro, we are discussing the verse which says;

                      and "his countenance was as the sun SHINETH IN HIS STRENGTH."

                      at this point, I really doubt it if you can look straight into the sun without aid for it not to blind you momentarily. I've said that it was symbolic because John was under a vision, I thought that this was understood.

                      Well, if you insists that this is a contradiction there's nothing I can do about it of course. Just know that I don't share your views. In my analysis, I've proven that it is not a contradiction basing on the written scriptures themselves, and not on personal opinions.


                      Eternal



                      "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                      Eternal, you claimed that God's TRUE form is that of BLINDING LIGHT according to John's revelation. NOw you're telling me that the Blinding Light is JUST a symbolic figure. How can God's TRUE form now be a symbolic figure??? It seems that you're not even sure of your God's TRUE FORM. And don't tell me humans can't look straight into the the sun with naked eyes- humans CAN do that. Haven't you tried looking at the sun at dawn/dusk? We don't need to wear anything to see the sun directly. You can even clearly see the sun from outer space than here on earth. Still you can't refute the contradiction.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: eter nal
                      To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:40 AM
                      Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


                      Perhaps this would help;

                      Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

                      John said that he was in the Spirit, meaning, under a vision, when he wrote the Revelation. Therefore, he did not actually or literally saw God, what he saw was the symbolic figure of God, being in the Spirit.

                      Notice this, if no human can look straight into the sun using no other than his/her eyes, as it is blinding indeed, what makes you think that John was able to see what he defined? Sunglasses? hahahaha

                      Therefore John must indeed be under a vision to be able to see what he saw, which is what God would want him to see, a symbolic figure. Which makes Jesus statements still stands;

                      "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                      You'll forgive me if I barely gave any attention to your other verses, as I am quite busy nowadays trying to prepare the design and a simple prototype for my propose application so that I could convince my supporters to invests on my proposal which only gave me 2 months to do so.

                      I will attend to your given verses whenever opportunity presents itself.

                      Good Day Bro,


                      Eternal

                      "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                      ETERNAL:
                      Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
                      mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:

                      >and "his countenance was as the
                      sun shineth in his strength."



                      LEW:
                      If you would read the previous verses: Rev1:13-15

                      -"...clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golen band"

                      -His head and his hair were white like wool, white as snow., eyes like a flame of fire"

                      -His feet were like fine brass


                      Eternal, if you would just continue reading till the next verse(Rev:1:17) it says:

                      "And WHEN I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying to me , " Do not be afraid , I am the first and the last"

                      Versus:

                      "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                      How was he able to describe in detail the countenance of God? Ans: John said" WHEN I SAW HIM". I think this is more than enough evidence to point out the contradiction. Thanks for sharing this verse. How does your own medicine taste? It's amazing that by using the same bible you use, I can disprove your "bible is contradictionless theory"



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • eter nal
                      Deception? Hmmmm....such a strong word my friend. Can you prove that I am decieving you? What would I gain in doing so? Your faith? Even if you somehow believe
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 7, 2006
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                        Deception? Hmmmm....such a strong word my friend. Can you prove that I am decieving you? What would I gain in doing so? Your faith? Even if you somehow believe in God I will not gain your faith, God will. So there's really no reason for me to even try.

                        Now, since we've agreed that this is indeed a vision, does it automatically follow that just because it is a vision it is not the true form of God? I think you're having a hard time understanding or perhaps, you're deliberately ignoring, that the reason why John was able to see the form of God was because he was under a vision.

                        Had he seen it literally, according to the Bible, he will die. Even under a vision John fell as dead on that presence;

                        Rev 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead."

                        Only by the saving hand of Jesus was he saved;

                        "And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"

                        Therefore, what John saw was the true form of God under a vision. There are many forms of God in the Bible, most of them are symbolic. But, these forms represent the true form of God as He is. Jesus said that whosoever saw Him saw the Father;

                        Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

                        Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

                        Does Jesus mean that His face was the Face of the Father? Of course not, He was referring to His character, the character of God. Even you or any of us are not define by our physical appearance alone, we are define by our character.

                        Since God is a spirit He has no material body to define with. We can only define God by His character, in this case, His symbolic appearance just like what John saw. Therefore I am not decieving you, you simply do not, or refuse to understand this simple analogy.


                        Eternal

                        "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                        Then you shouldn't have used that verse and say that THAT IS "GOD'S TRUE FORM". You knew in the first place that it was only a vision of John but still you used this verse to defend that God cannot be seen. And it so happened that I noticed the deception. Did you think I wouldn't notice? Remember, you were the one who brought up this verse to point out what God's TRUE form is. Too bad it didn't work for me.





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: eter nal
                        To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:41 AM
                        Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


                        Of course humans can look to the sun straight at dusk or dawn, since it is not yet shining at its strength. But remember bro, we are discussing the verse which says;

                        and "his countenance was as the sun SHINETH IN HIS STRENGTH."

                        at this point, I really doubt it if you can look straight into the sun without aid for it not to blind you momentarily. I've said that it was symbolic because John was under a vision, I thought that this was understood.

                        Well, if you insists that this is a contradiction there's nothing I can do about it of course. Just know that I don't share your views. In my analysis, I've proven that it is not a contradiction basing on the written scriptures themselves, and not on personal opinions.


                        Eternal



                        "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                        Eternal, you claimed that God's TRUE form is that of BLINDING LIGHT according to John's revelation. NOw you're telling me that the Blinding Light is JUST a symbolic figure. How can God's TRUE form now be a symbolic figure??? It seems that you're not even sure of your God's TRUE FORM. And don't tell me humans can't look straight into the the sun with naked eyes- humans CAN do that. Haven't you tried looking at the sun at dawn/dusk? We don't need to wear anything to see the sun directly. You can even clearly see the sun from outer space than here on earth. Still you can't refute the contradiction.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: eter nal
                        To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:40 AM
                        Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Biblical Contradictions/God is evil?


                        Perhaps this would help;

                        Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

                        John said that he was in the Spirit, meaning, under a vision, when he wrote the Revelation. Therefore, he did not actually or literally saw God, what he saw was the symbolic figure of God, being in the Spirit.

                        Notice this, if no human can look straight into the sun using no other than his/her eyes, as it is blinding indeed, what makes you think that John was able to see what he defined? Sunglasses? hahahaha

                        Therefore John must indeed be under a vision to be able to see what he saw, which is what God would want him to see, a symbolic figure. Which makes Jesus statements still stands;

                        "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                        You'll forgive me if I barely gave any attention to your other verses, as I am quite busy nowadays trying to prepare the design and a simple prototype for my propose application so that I could convince my supporters to invests on my proposal which only gave me 2 months to do so.

                        I will attend to your given verses whenever opportunity presents itself.

                        Good Day Bro,


                        Eternal

                        "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                        ETERNAL:
                        Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his
                        mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:

                        >and "his countenance was as the
                        sun shineth in his strength."



                        LEW:
                        If you would read the previous verses: Rev1:13-15

                        -"...clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golen band"

                        -His head and his hair were white like wool, white as snow., eyes like a flame of fire"

                        -His feet were like fine brass


                        Eternal, if you would just continue reading till the next verse(Rev:1:17) it says:

                        "And WHEN I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying to me , " Do not be afraid , I am the first and the last"

                        Versus:

                        "No Man hath SEEN God at anytime" John 1:18

                        How was he able to describe in detail the countenance of God? Ans: John said" WHEN I SAW HIM". I think this is more than enough evidence to point out the contradiction. Thanks for sharing this verse. How does your own medicine taste? It's amazing that by using the same bible you use, I can disprove your "bible is contradictionless theory"



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        http://www.philippineatheists.org/



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                      • Lew Andrew D. Reyes
                        eternal: Now, since we ve agreed that this is indeed a vision, does it automatically follow that just because it is a vision it is not the true form of God? I
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 8, 2006
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                          eternal:

                          Now, since we've agreed that this is indeed a vision, does it automatically follow that just because it is a vision it is not the true form of God? I think you're having a hard time understanding or perhaps, you're deliberately ignoring, that the reason why John was able to see the form of God was because he was under a vision.


                          Lew:

                          Believe me, I'm trying to understand that a "Vision IS a symbollic figure IS THE TRUE form of God." I just doesn't agree with my logic. I thought symbols are only representations of the REAL thing(by the way, that's what the dictionary says). If I draw a pentagram which represents a star, does that mean that the pentagram is the TRUE form of a star? I'll drop this "Vision thing" since it just keeps getting more incomprehensible for me.


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                        • eter nal
                          Suit yourself. Eternal Lew Andrew D. Reyes wrote: eternal: Now, since we ve agreed that this is indeed a vision, does it
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 9, 2006
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                            Suit yourself.


                            Eternal

                            "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@...> wrote:
                            eternal:

                            Now, since we've agreed that this is indeed a vision, does it automatically follow that just because it is a vision it is not the true form of God? I think you're having a hard time understanding or perhaps, you're deliberately ignoring, that the reason why John was able to see the form of God was because he was under a vision.


                            Lew:

                            Believe me, I'm trying to understand that a "Vision IS a symbollic figure IS THE TRUE form of God." I just doesn't agree with my logic. I thought symbols are only representations of the REAL thing(by the way, that's what the dictionary says). If I draw a pentagram which represents a star, does that mean that the pentagram is the TRUE form of a star? I'll drop this "Vision thing" since it just keeps getting more incomprehensible for me.


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