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Re: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist law student needs help. =D

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  • Igmidio Galingan
    While we are on professions, I use non-praticing at times to describe my belief or lack thereof ... -- Igme Galingan Department of Budget and Management
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 6, 2009
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      While we are on professions, I use 'non-praticing' at times to describe my
      belief or lack thereof

      On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > I quite agree on the answer and the baggage.
      >
      > One would be in trouble, I think, if they asked/probed further :)
      >
      > ./francis
      >
      > 2009/8/7 John <harmless168@... <harmless168%40yahoo.com>>
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Well, I guess you can answer "I'm not really religious"... Don't say "I'm
      > > an atheist", because the word comes with a lot of baggage...
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@... <Jounin.F%40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
      > 40gmail.com>>
      > >
      > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 10:46:28 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist
      > > law student needs help. =D
      > >
      > > I agree to what Michael said.
      > >
      > > However, I think Fatima is asking a different question i.e. should she
      > > admit
      > > she is an atheist given that the client is asking for her belief? I think
      > > what she's trying to avoid is the fact that the clients might reel back
      > and
      > > feel uncomfortable working with a non-believer, just as what a lot of
      > > close-minded believers would do, I'm thinking. This of course transcends
      > > the
      > > query of an atheist lawyer, but covers the fact that do close-minded
      > people
      > > think less of atheists as professionals given their non-belief?
      > >
      > > ./francis
      > >
      > > 2009/8/7 Michael Muin, MD <mikemuin@gmail. com>
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I don't see the need to come out to your clients. Your work should be
      > > > independent from your non-belief. Unless you plan to be an advocate for
      > > > secularism or atheism.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@ yahoo.com
      > <catharcyst_
      > > 26%40yahoo. com>>
      > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > Hi everyone!
      > > > >
      > > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know any
      > > > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out, and
      > > > whether
      > > > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the
      > > future,
      > > > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my
      > > atheism?
      > > > If
      > > > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP
      > Office
      > > of
      > > > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my
      > clients.
      > > > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the
      > services
      > > I
      > > > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually, is
      > > the
      > > > apt
      > > > > term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
      > > > >
      > > > > -F
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Igme Galingan
      Department of Budget and Management


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Francis Cabarle
      I think saying non-practicing begs the question what are you not practicing? , which still falls on the probing problem. ./francis 2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 7, 2009
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        I think saying 'non-practicing' begs the question 'what are you not
        practicing?', which still falls on the probing problem.

        ./francis


        2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan <ipgalingan@...>

        >
        >
        > While we are on professions, I use 'non-praticing' at times to describe my
        > belief or lack thereof
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...<Jounin.F%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I quite agree on the answer and the baggage.
        > >
        > > One would be in trouble, I think, if they asked/probed further :)
        > >
        > > ./francis
        > >
        > > 2009/8/7 John <harmless168@... <harmless168%40yahoo.com><harmless168%
        > 40yahoo.com>>
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Well, I guess you can answer "I'm not really religious"... Don't say
        > "I'm
        > > > an atheist", because the word comes with a lot of baggage...
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@... <Jounin.F%40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
        > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
        > > 40gmail.com>>
        > > >
        > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
        > 40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
        > > 40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > > > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 10:46:28 AM
        > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An
        > atheist
        > > > law student needs help. =D
        > > >
        > > > I agree to what Michael said.
        > > >
        > > > However, I think Fatima is asking a different question i.e. should she
        > > > admit
        > > > she is an atheist given that the client is asking for her belief? I
        > think
        > > > what she's trying to avoid is the fact that the clients might reel back
        > > and
        > > > feel uncomfortable working with a non-believer, just as what a lot of
        > > > close-minded believers would do, I'm thinking. This of course
        > transcends
        > > > the
        > > > query of an atheist lawyer, but covers the fact that do close-minded
        > > people
        > > > think less of atheists as professionals given their non-belief?
        > > >
        > > > ./francis
        > > >
        > > > 2009/8/7 Michael Muin, MD <mikemuin@gmail. com>
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't see the need to come out to your clients. Your work should be
        > > > > independent from your non-belief. Unless you plan to be an advocate
        > for
        > > > > secularism or atheism.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@
        > yahoo.com
        > > <catharcyst_
        > > > 26%40yahoo. com>>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > Hi everyone!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know
        > any
        > > > > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out,
        > and
        > > > > whether
        > > > > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the
        > > > future,
        > > > > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my
        > > > atheism?
        > > > > If
        > > > > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP
        > > Office
        > > > of
        > > > > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my
        > > clients.
        > > > > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the
        > > services
        > > > I
        > > > > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually,
        > is
        > > > the
        > > > > apt
        > > > > > term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > -F
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Igme Galingan
        > Department of Budget and Management
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Igmidio Galingan
        non-practicing catholic, not religious, don t care, unimportant to me, agnostic.....admitedly athiest falls way down the list.....but i do say it when people
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 7, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          non-practicing catholic, not religious, don't care, unimportant to me,
          agnostic.....admitedly athiest falls way down the list.....but i do say it
          when people can get really annoying....besides I really don't hang with the
          religious types....

          On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > I think saying 'non-practicing' begs the question 'what are you not
          > practicing?', which still falls on the probing problem.
          >
          > ./francis
          >
          > 2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan <ipgalingan@... <ipgalingan%40gmail.com>>
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > While we are on professions, I use 'non-praticing' at times to describe
          > my
          > > belief or lack thereof
          > >
          > >
          > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...<Jounin.F%40gmail.com>
          > <Jounin.F%40gmail.com>>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I quite agree on the answer and the baggage.
          > > >
          > > > One would be in trouble, I think, if they asked/probed further :)
          > > >
          > > > ./francis
          > > >
          > > > 2009/8/7 John <harmless168@... <harmless168%40yahoo.com><harmless168%
          > 40yahoo.com><harmless168%
          > > 40yahoo.com>>
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Well, I guess you can answer "I'm not really religious"... Don't say
          > > "I'm
          > > > > an atheist", because the word comes with a lot of baggage...
          > > > >
          > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > From: Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@... <Jounin.F%40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
          > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
          > > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
          > > > 40gmail.com>>
          > > > >
          > > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
          > 40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
          > > 40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
          > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
          > >
          > > > > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 10:46:28 AM
          > > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An
          > > atheist
          > > > > law student needs help. =D
          > > > >
          > > > > I agree to what Michael said.
          > > > >
          > > > > However, I think Fatima is asking a different question i.e. should
          > she
          > > > > admit
          > > > > she is an atheist given that the client is asking for her belief? I
          > > think
          > > > > what she's trying to avoid is the fact that the clients might reel
          > back
          > > > and
          > > > > feel uncomfortable working with a non-believer, just as what a lot of
          > > > > close-minded believers would do, I'm thinking. This of course
          > > transcends
          > > > > the
          > > > > query of an atheist lawyer, but covers the fact that do close-minded
          > > > people
          > > > > think less of atheists as professionals given their non-belief?
          > > > >
          > > > > ./francis
          > > > >
          > > > > 2009/8/7 Michael Muin, MD <mikemuin@gmail. com>
          > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I don't see the need to come out to your clients. Your work should
          > be
          > > > > > independent from your non-belief. Unless you plan to be an advocate
          > > for
          > > > > > secularism or atheism.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@
          > > yahoo.com
          > > > <catharcyst_
          > > > > 26%40yahoo. com>>
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > Hi everyone!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know
          > > any
          > > > > > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out,
          > > and
          > > > > > whether
          > > > > > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the
          > > > > future,
          > > > > > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my
          > > > > atheism?
          > > > > > If
          > > > > > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP
          > > > Office
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my
          > > > clients.
          > > > > > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the
          > > > services
          > > > > I
          > > > > > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, "
          > actually,
          > > is
          > > > > the
          > > > > > apt
          > > > > > > term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > -F
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > Igme Galingan
          > > Department of Budget and Management
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Igme Galingan
          Department of Budget and Management


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Francis Cabarle
          that s the spirit! :) ./francis 2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            that's the spirit! :)

            ./francis


            2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan <ipgalingan@...>

            >
            >
            > non-practicing catholic, not religious, don't care, unimportant to me,
            > agnostic.....admitedly athiest falls way down the list.....but i do say it
            > when people can get really annoying....besides I really don't hang with the
            > religious types....
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...<Jounin.F%40gmail.com>>
            > wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > I think saying 'non-practicing' begs the question 'what are you not
            > > practicing?', which still falls on the probing problem.
            > >
            > > ./francis
            > >
            > > 2009/8/7 Igmidio Galingan <ipgalingan@... <ipgalingan%40gmail.com><ipgalingan%
            > 40gmail.com>>
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > While we are on professions, I use 'non-praticing' at times to describe
            > > my
            > > > belief or lack thereof
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...<Jounin.F%40gmail.com>
            > <Jounin.F%40gmail.com>
            > > <Jounin.F%40gmail.com>>
            > > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I quite agree on the answer and the baggage.
            > > > >
            > > > > One would be in trouble, I think, if they asked/probed further :)
            > > > >
            > > > > ./francis
            > > > >
            > > > > 2009/8/7 John <harmless168@... <harmless168%40yahoo.com><harmless168%
            > 40yahoo.com><harmless168%
            > > 40yahoo.com><harmless168%
            > > > 40yahoo.com>>
            > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Well, I guess you can answer "I'm not really religious"... Don't
            > say
            > > > "I'm
            > > > > > an atheist", because the word comes with a lot of baggage...
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > From: Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@... <Jounin.F%40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
            > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
            > > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
            > > > 40gmail.com><Jounin.F%
            > > > > 40gmail.com>>
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
            > > 40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
            >
            > > > 40yahoogroups.com><pinoy_atheists%
            > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
            > > >
            > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 10:46:28 AM
            > > > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An
            > > > atheist
            > > > > > law student needs help. =D
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I agree to what Michael said.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > However, I think Fatima is asking a different question i.e. should
            > > she
            > > > > > admit
            > > > > > she is an atheist given that the client is asking for her belief? I
            > > > think
            > > > > > what she's trying to avoid is the fact that the clients might reel
            > > back
            > > > > and
            > > > > > feel uncomfortable working with a non-believer, just as what a lot
            > of
            > > > > > close-minded believers would do, I'm thinking. This of course
            > > > transcends
            > > > > > the
            > > > > > query of an atheist lawyer, but covers the fact that do
            > close-minded
            > > > > people
            > > > > > think less of atheists as professionals given their non-belief?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ./francis
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 2009/8/7 Michael Muin, MD <mikemuin@gmail. com>
            > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I don't see the need to come out to your clients. Your work
            > should
            > > be
            > > > > > > independent from your non-belief. Unless you plan to be an
            > advocate
            > > > for
            > > > > > > secularism or atheism.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@
            > > > yahoo.com
            > > > > <catharcyst_
            > > > > > 26%40yahoo. com>>
            > > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Hi everyone!
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who
            > know
            > > > any
            > > > > > > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming
            > out,
            > > > and
            > > > > > > whether
            > > > > > > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In
            > the
            > > > > > future,
            > > > > > > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about
            > my
            > > > > > atheism?
            > > > > > > If
            > > > > > > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP
            > > > > Office
            > > > > > of
            > > > > > > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my
            > > > > clients.
            > > > > > > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the
            > > > > services
            > > > > > I
            > > > > > > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, "
            > > actually,
            > > > is
            > > > > > the
            > > > > > > apt
            > > > > > > > term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > -F
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Igme Galingan
            > > > Department of Budget and Management
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Igme Galingan
            > Department of Budget and Management
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fatima Cruz
            Hello everyone! Thank you so much for the responses. =) Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I should have been a bit more prudent and patient when I
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 8, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello everyone!

              Thank you so much for the responses. =)

              Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I should have been a bit more prudent and patient when I was dealing with that client. Kasi this particular client was one of those gung-ho proselytizing types who don't think it's enough that they proclaim their beliefs; they have to make others feel the same religious ecstasy they feel too. On the one hand, I understood in a way, where he was coming from: he survived nasal cancer caused by second-hand smoke but he survived, so he attributed it as an act of mercy from God and decided to devote his life to doing good deeds for others (including being part of a suit against the defendant.) You know how a lot of people tend to do that. And so of course he saw what me and my office were doing as part of God's plan to help him, God's fulfilment of his wishes, etc. The constant and profuse "God bless you", etc. etc. I didn't mind. (Since all my clients including the balasubas ones keep saying that anyway.) In fact I must admit I admired him for his generosity and kindness, even.

              But I guess I got really uncomfortable when he started trying to convert me to his brand of Christianity and inviting me to his prayer meetings, etc. I didn't want to have to go to my superiors for this matter, and I think it got on my nerves too, so I blurted out something like, "Salamat na din sa paanyaya, pero pasensya na po, hindi po kasi ako naniniwala sa Diyos." And so after that, he became asiwa (although the upside of this is he didn't pester me anymore with attempts at proselytizing, which was a good thing because I was expecting him to become more hell-bent on saving my soul from damnation.)

              On the one hand, many of you are certainly right that it's really is much wiser not to say anything to our potential clients and employers, whether you're a lawyer or not. It's not just the fact that it should be and it is irrelevant and unnecessary for the performance of duties towards my clients/employers, but because yeah, you have an immensely religious population. Plus, it's a population that has already come to view religiosity as a prerequisite for being a moral person. (Do you remember the survey my alma mater Ateneo had among people about the number one trait they wanted in a candidate? Of course the number one trait was "may takot sa Diyos." ) It's not a good idea to inadvertently make your clients feel alienated and uncomfortable by revealing that fact, especially since (well, based on my experience), it's these trying times that they tend to cling to religion and pray a lot. Not good career-wise, and might even be worse for your clients' psychological well-being. (Although it the end it's your very secular work that's going to give them their long-desired peace of mind. =P)

              But then again on the other hand, I also want to come out about my atheism for the same reason that the members of the early homosexual/bisexual movement also came out: to let people know that, "Hey, you know what, I'm atheist. I also want you to know that it's perfectly alright, it's not something to be ashamed of, in fact it's something to be proud of, and I'm just as good/decent/moral/competent/hardworking, etc. as the next fellow." I was thinking perhaps, that it would accomplish two goals: 1.) perhaps it would make them more open-minded and accepting about people like us, and 2.) so that those awkward, uncomfortable, if not downright oppressive situations would be avoided altogether. It's very liberating to say, "Look, I might not be Christian/Muslim/etc. like you, but that doesn't matter because you're my client and I'm going to defend your rights just as intelligently and with all devotion as the next lawyer." What I'm saying is, in coming out to my client, I want my atheism to NOT MATTER, or to make them learn that it really doesn't matter, just as much as these days, it doesn't matter to us whether or not the manager/government employee/doctor, etc. is homosexual/bisexual.

              Oh well. I think for now it's better to take the more pragmatic path and not bring it up, or if a similar situation happens to me again, then just make a convenient excuse like, "Sorry I have to study cases for hearings tomorrow" or "I'm really busy" (which wouldn't be lying either, because we law students really ARE busy.)

              Again, many many thanks for the insights everyone. =) Am very happy I got back into the e-group, because heaven knows we all need a great support group in a country like this. =D

              And to Mark: Dude, it doesn't matter if I'm atheist or religious, because—well, you know how the lawyer jokes go--I chose to become a lawyer I'm automatically banned from heaven, hahahaha. =D

              P.S. I read in Newsbreak that there was a survey among Filipinos about which professions they trusted the most. The no.1 trusted professionals were priests, and the least trusted were—you guessed it—lawyers. =P


              --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, John <harmless168@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Fatima! I'm not a lawyer, but I really wouldn't advise you to "come out" to clients about your atheism, at least not if you plan to work in a country with a religious majority. It could likely be a hindrance to your career. Besides, why would you need to "come out" to clients anyway? In my line of business, I've never had the need to bring out religious beliefs...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
              > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 1:32:06 AM
              > Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist law student needs help. =D
              >
              >
              > Hi everyone!
              >
              > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know any personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out, and whether or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the future, should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my atheism? If I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP Office of Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my clients. Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the services I rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually, is the apt term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
              >
              > -F
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Francis Cabarle
              I think people on this list or the other have felt, probably at least once in their lives, to go out and tell people that they are non-believers, and that they
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 8, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I think people on this list or the other have felt, probably at least once
                in their lives, to go out and tell people that they are non-believers, and
                that they are happy and don't feel miserable about it. But if it were me,
                I'd still go for the Bertrand Russell response (see my blog post here if you
                like:
                http://f241vc15.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/academic-answer-to-the-question-am-i-an-atheist-or-an-agnostic/).
                Of course, some would argue it's the 'no balls' approach to coming out as an
                atheist, others view it as prudence, and so on and so forth.

                ./francis


                2009/8/8 Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>

                >
                >
                > Hello everyone!
                >
                > Thank you so much for the responses. =)
                >
                > Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I should have been a bit more
                > prudent and patient when I was dealing with that client. Kasi this
                > particular client was one of those gung-ho proselytizing types who don't
                > think it's enough that they proclaim their beliefs; they have to make others
                > feel the same religious ecstasy they feel too. On the one hand, I understood
                > in a way, where he was coming from: he survived nasal cancer caused by
                > second-hand smoke but he survived, so he attributed it as an act of mercy
                > from God and decided to devote his life to doing good deeds for others
                > (including being part of a suit against the defendant.) You know how a lot
                > of people tend to do that. And so of course he saw what me and my office
                > were doing as part of God's plan to help him, God's fulfilment of his
                > wishes, etc. The constant and profuse "God bless you", etc. etc. I didn't
                > mind. (Since all my clients including the balasubas ones keep saying that
                > anyway.) In fact I must admit I admired him for his generosity and kindness,
                > even.
                >
                > But I guess I got really uncomfortable when he started trying to convert me
                > to his brand of Christianity and inviting me to his prayer meetings, etc. I
                > didn't want to have to go to my superiors for this matter, and I think it
                > got on my nerves too, so I blurted out something like, "Salamat na din sa
                > paanyaya, pero pasensya na po, hindi po kasi ako naniniwala sa Diyos." And
                > so after that, he became asiwa (although the upside of this is he didn't
                > pester me anymore with attempts at proselytizing, which was a good thing
                > because I was expecting him to become more hell-bent on saving my soul from
                > damnation.)
                >
                > On the one hand, many of you are certainly right that it's really is much
                > wiser not to say anything to our potential clients and employers, whether
                > you're a lawyer or not. It's not just the fact that it should be and it is
                > irrelevant and unnecessary for the performance of duties towards my
                > clients/employers, but because yeah, you have an immensely religious
                > population. Plus, it's a population that has already come to view
                > religiosity as a prerequisite for being a moral person. (Do you remember the
                > survey my alma mater Ateneo had among people about the number one trait they
                > wanted in a candidate? Of course the number one trait was "may takot sa
                > Diyos." ) It's not a good idea to inadvertently make your clients feel
                > alienated and uncomfortable by revealing that fact, especially since (well,
                > based on my experience), it's these trying times that they tend to cling to
                > religion and pray a lot. Not good career-wise, and might even be worse for
                > your clients' psychological well-being. (Although it the end it's your very
                > secular work that's going to give them their long-desired peace of mind. =P)
                >
                > But then again on the other hand, I also want to come out about my atheism
                > for the same reason that the members of the early homosexual/bisexual
                > movement also came out: to let people know that, "Hey, you know what, I'm
                > atheist. I also want you to know that it's perfectly alright, it's not
                > something to be ashamed of, in fact it's something to be proud of, and I'm
                > just as good/decent/moral/competent/hardworking, etc. as the next fellow." I
                > was thinking perhaps, that it would accomplish two goals: 1.) perhaps it
                > would make them more open-minded and accepting about people like us, and 2.)
                > so that those awkward, uncomfortable, if not downright oppressive situations
                > would be avoided altogether. It's very liberating to say, "Look, I might not
                > be Christian/Muslim/etc. like you, but that doesn't matter because you're my
                > client and I'm going to defend your rights just as intelligently and with
                > all devotion as the next lawyer." What I'm saying is, in coming out to my
                > client, I want my atheism to NOT MATTER, or to make them learn that it
                > really doesn't matter, just as much as these days, it doesn't matter to us
                > whether or not the manager/government employee/doctor, etc. is
                > homosexual/bisexual.
                >
                > Oh well. I think for now it's better to take the more pragmatic path and
                > not bring it up, or if a similar situation happens to me again, then just
                > make a convenient excuse like, "Sorry I have to study cases for hearings
                > tomorrow" or "I'm really busy" (which wouldn't be lying either, because we
                > law students really ARE busy.)
                >
                > Again, many many thanks for the insights everyone. =) Am very happy I got
                > back into the e-group, because heaven knows we all need a great support
                > group in a country like this. =D
                >
                > And to Mark: Dude, it doesn't matter if I'm atheist or religious,
                > because�well, you know how the lawyer jokes go--I chose to become a lawyer
                > I'm automatically banned from heaven, hahahaha. =D
                >
                > P.S. I read in Newsbreak that there was a survey among Filipinos about
                > which professions they trusted the most. The no.1 trusted professionals were
                > priests, and the least trusted were�you guessed it�lawyers. =P
                >
                > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > John <harmless168@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Fatima! I'm not a lawyer, but I really wouldn't advise you to "come
                > out" to clients about your atheism, at least not if you plan to work in a
                > country with a religious majority. It could likely be a hindrance to your
                > career. Besides, why would you need to "come out" to clients anyway? In my
                > line of business, I've never had the need to bring out religious beliefs...
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
                > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 1:32:06 AM
                > > Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist law
                > student needs help. =D
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi everyone!
                > >
                > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know any
                > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out, and whether
                > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the future,
                > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my atheism? If
                > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP Office of
                > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my clients.
                > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the services I
                > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually, is the
                > apt term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
                > >
                > > -F
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Silts
                good post FC, thanks for the pdf. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 8, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  good post FC, thanks for the pdf.


                  On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...> wrote:

                  > I think people on this list or the other have felt, probably at least once
                  > in their lives, to go out and tell people that they are non-believers, and
                  > that they are happy and don't feel miserable about it. But if it were me,
                  > I'd still go for the Bertrand Russell response (see my blog post here if
                  > you
                  > like:
                  >
                  > http://f241vc15.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/academic-answer-to-the-question-am-i-an-atheist-or-an-agnostic/
                  > ).
                  > Of course, some would argue it's the 'no balls' approach to coming out as
                  > an
                  > atheist, others view it as prudence, and so on and so forth.
                  >
                  > ./francis
                  >
                  >
                  > 2009/8/8 Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello everyone!
                  > >
                  > > Thank you so much for the responses. =)
                  > >
                  > > Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I should have been a bit
                  > more
                  > > prudent and patient when I was dealing with that client. Kasi this
                  > > particular client was one of those gung-ho proselytizing types who don't
                  > > think it's enough that they proclaim their beliefs; they have to make
                  > others
                  > > feel the same religious ecstasy they feel too. On the one hand, I
                  > understood
                  > > in a way, where he was coming from: he survived nasal cancer caused by
                  > > second-hand smoke but he survived, so he attributed it as an act of mercy
                  > > from God and decided to devote his life to doing good deeds for others
                  > > (including being part of a suit against the defendant.) You know how a
                  > lot
                  > > of people tend to do that. And so of course he saw what me and my office
                  > > were doing as part of God's plan to help him, God's fulfilment of his
                  > > wishes, etc. The constant and profuse "God bless you", etc. etc. I didn't
                  > > mind. (Since all my clients including the balasubas ones keep saying that
                  > > anyway.) In fact I must admit I admired him for his generosity and
                  > kindness,
                  > > even.
                  > >
                  > > But I guess I got really uncomfortable when he started trying to convert
                  > me
                  > > to his brand of Christianity and inviting me to his prayer meetings, etc.
                  > I
                  > > didn't want to have to go to my superiors for this matter, and I think it
                  > > got on my nerves too, so I blurted out something like, "Salamat na din sa
                  > > paanyaya, pero pasensya na po, hindi po kasi ako naniniwala sa Diyos."
                  > And
                  > > so after that, he became asiwa (although the upside of this is he didn't
                  > > pester me anymore with attempts at proselytizing, which was a good thing
                  > > because I was expecting him to become more hell-bent on saving my soul
                  > from
                  > > damnation.)
                  > >
                  > > On the one hand, many of you are certainly right that it's really is much
                  > > wiser not to say anything to our potential clients and employers, whether
                  > > you're a lawyer or not. It's not just the fact that it should be and it
                  > is
                  > > irrelevant and unnecessary for the performance of duties towards my
                  > > clients/employers, but because yeah, you have an immensely religious
                  > > population. Plus, it's a population that has already come to view
                  > > religiosity as a prerequisite for being a moral person. (Do you remember
                  > the
                  > > survey my alma mater Ateneo had among people about the number one trait
                  > they
                  > > wanted in a candidate? Of course the number one trait was "may takot sa
                  > > Diyos." ) It's not a good idea to inadvertently make your clients feel
                  > > alienated and uncomfortable by revealing that fact, especially since
                  > (well,
                  > > based on my experience), it's these trying times that they tend to cling
                  > to
                  > > religion and pray a lot. Not good career-wise, and might even be worse
                  > for
                  > > your clients' psychological well-being. (Although it the end it's your
                  > very
                  > > secular work that's going to give them their long-desired peace of mind.
                  > =P)
                  > >
                  > > But then again on the other hand, I also want to come out about my
                  > atheism
                  > > for the same reason that the members of the early homosexual/bisexual
                  > > movement also came out: to let people know that, "Hey, you know what, I'm
                  > > atheist. I also want you to know that it's perfectly alright, it's not
                  > > something to be ashamed of, in fact it's something to be proud of, and
                  > I'm
                  > > just as good/decent/moral/competent/hardworking, etc. as the next
                  > fellow." I
                  > > was thinking perhaps, that it would accomplish two goals: 1.) perhaps it
                  > > would make them more open-minded and accepting about people like us, and
                  > 2.)
                  > > so that those awkward, uncomfortable, if not downright oppressive
                  > situations
                  > > would be avoided altogether. It's very liberating to say, "Look, I might
                  > not
                  > > be Christian/Muslim/etc. like you, but that doesn't matter because you're
                  > my
                  > > client and I'm going to defend your rights just as intelligently and with
                  > > all devotion as the next lawyer." What I'm saying is, in coming out to my
                  > > client, I want my atheism to NOT MATTER, or to make them learn that it
                  > > really doesn't matter, just as much as these days, it doesn't matter to
                  > us
                  > > whether or not the manager/government employee/doctor, etc. is
                  > > homosexual/bisexual.
                  > >
                  > > Oh well. I think for now it's better to take the more pragmatic path and
                  > > not bring it up, or if a similar situation happens to me again, then just
                  > > make a convenient excuse like, "Sorry I have to study cases for hearings
                  > > tomorrow" or "I'm really busy" (which wouldn't be lying either, because
                  > we
                  > > law students really ARE busy.)
                  > >
                  > > Again, many many thanks for the insights everyone. =) Am very happy I got
                  > > back into the e-group, because heaven knows we all need a great support
                  > > group in a country like this. =D
                  > >
                  > > And to Mark: Dude, it doesn't matter if I'm atheist or religious,
                  > > because�well, you know how the lawyer jokes go--I chose to become a
                  > lawyer
                  > > I'm automatically banned from heaven, hahahaha. =D
                  > >
                  > > P.S. I read in Newsbreak that there was a survey among Filipinos about
                  > > which professions they trusted the most. The no.1 trusted professionals
                  > were
                  > > priests, and the least trusted were�you guessed it�lawyers. =P
                  > >
                  > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com
                  > >,
                  > > John <harmless168@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Fatima! I'm not a lawyer, but I really wouldn't advise you to "come
                  > > out" to clients about your atheism, at least not if you plan to work in a
                  > > country with a religious majority. It could likely be a hindrance to your
                  > > career. Besides, why would you need to "come out" to clients anyway? In
                  > my
                  > > line of business, I've never had the need to bring out religious
                  > beliefs...
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > > From: Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
                  > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 1:32:06 AM
                  > > > Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist
                  > law
                  > > student needs help. =D
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi everyone!
                  > > >
                  > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know any
                  > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out, and
                  > whether
                  > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the future,
                  > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my atheism?
                  > If
                  > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP Office of
                  > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my clients.
                  > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the services I
                  > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually, is the
                  > > apt term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
                  > > >
                  > > > -F
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > http://www.philippineatheists.org/Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Francis Cabarle
                  @Silts: Con mucho gusto :) with pleasure @Fatima: Yeah that s a pretty passed around jokes on lawyers, I think. I wonder if anybody has cracked something like
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 8, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    @Silts: Con mucho gusto :) with pleasure

                    @Fatima: Yeah that's a pretty passed around jokes on lawyers, I think. I
                    wonder if anybody has cracked something like that on you? You'd probably be
                    that joke's worst nightmare for those people :D

                    ./francis


                    2009/8/8 Silts <silnore@...>

                    > good post FC, thanks for the pdf.
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Francis Cabarle <Jounin.F@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > I think people on this list or the other have felt, probably at least
                    > once
                    > > in their lives, to go out and tell people that they are non-believers,
                    > and
                    > > that they are happy and don't feel miserable about it. But if it were me,
                    > > I'd still go for the Bertrand Russell response (see my blog post here if
                    > > you
                    > > like:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > http://f241vc15.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/academic-answer-to-the-question-am-i-an-atheist-or-an-agnostic/
                    > > ).
                    > > Of course, some would argue it's the 'no balls' approach to coming out as
                    > > an
                    > > atheist, others view it as prudence, and so on and so forth.
                    > >
                    > > ./francis
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 2009/8/8 Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello everyone!
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you so much for the responses. =)
                    > > >
                    > > > Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps I should have been a bit
                    > > more
                    > > > prudent and patient when I was dealing with that client. Kasi this
                    > > > particular client was one of those gung-ho proselytizing types who
                    > don't
                    > > > think it's enough that they proclaim their beliefs; they have to make
                    > > others
                    > > > feel the same religious ecstasy they feel too. On the one hand, I
                    > > understood
                    > > > in a way, where he was coming from: he survived nasal cancer caused by
                    > > > second-hand smoke but he survived, so he attributed it as an act of
                    > mercy
                    > > > from God and decided to devote his life to doing good deeds for others
                    > > > (including being part of a suit against the defendant.) You know how a
                    > > lot
                    > > > of people tend to do that. And so of course he saw what me and my
                    > office
                    > > > were doing as part of God's plan to help him, God's fulfilment of his
                    > > > wishes, etc. The constant and profuse "God bless you", etc. etc. I
                    > didn't
                    > > > mind. (Since all my clients including the balasubas ones keep saying
                    > that
                    > > > anyway.) In fact I must admit I admired him for his generosity and
                    > > kindness,
                    > > > even.
                    > > >
                    > > > But I guess I got really uncomfortable when he started trying to
                    > convert
                    > > me
                    > > > to his brand of Christianity and inviting me to his prayer meetings,
                    > etc.
                    > > I
                    > > > didn't want to have to go to my superiors for this matter, and I think
                    > it
                    > > > got on my nerves too, so I blurted out something like, "Salamat na din
                    > sa
                    > > > paanyaya, pero pasensya na po, hindi po kasi ako naniniwala sa Diyos."
                    > > And
                    > > > so after that, he became asiwa (although the upside of this is he
                    > didn't
                    > > > pester me anymore with attempts at proselytizing, which was a good
                    > thing
                    > > > because I was expecting him to become more hell-bent on saving my soul
                    > > from
                    > > > damnation.)
                    > > >
                    > > > On the one hand, many of you are certainly right that it's really is
                    > much
                    > > > wiser not to say anything to our potential clients and employers,
                    > whether
                    > > > you're a lawyer or not. It's not just the fact that it should be and it
                    > > is
                    > > > irrelevant and unnecessary for the performance of duties towards my
                    > > > clients/employers, but because yeah, you have an immensely religious
                    > > > population. Plus, it's a population that has already come to view
                    > > > religiosity as a prerequisite for being a moral person. (Do you
                    > remember
                    > > the
                    > > > survey my alma mater Ateneo had among people about the number one trait
                    > > they
                    > > > wanted in a candidate? Of course the number one trait was "may takot sa
                    > > > Diyos." ) It's not a good idea to inadvertently make your clients feel
                    > > > alienated and uncomfortable by revealing that fact, especially since
                    > > (well,
                    > > > based on my experience), it's these trying times that they tend to
                    > cling
                    > > to
                    > > > religion and pray a lot. Not good career-wise, and might even be worse
                    > > for
                    > > > your clients' psychological well-being. (Although it the end it's your
                    > > very
                    > > > secular work that's going to give them their long-desired peace of
                    > mind.
                    > > =P)
                    > > >
                    > > > But then again on the other hand, I also want to come out about my
                    > > atheism
                    > > > for the same reason that the members of the early homosexual/bisexual
                    > > > movement also came out: to let people know that, "Hey, you know what,
                    > I'm
                    > > > atheist. I also want you to know that it's perfectly alright, it's not
                    > > > something to be ashamed of, in fact it's something to be proud of, and
                    > > I'm
                    > > > just as good/decent/moral/competent/hardworking, etc. as the next
                    > > fellow." I
                    > > > was thinking perhaps, that it would accomplish two goals: 1.) perhaps
                    > it
                    > > > would make them more open-minded and accepting about people like us,
                    > and
                    > > 2.)
                    > > > so that those awkward, uncomfortable, if not downright oppressive
                    > > situations
                    > > > would be avoided altogether. It's very liberating to say, "Look, I
                    > might
                    > > not
                    > > > be Christian/Muslim/etc. like you, but that doesn't matter because
                    > you're
                    > > my
                    > > > client and I'm going to defend your rights just as intelligently and
                    > with
                    > > > all devotion as the next lawyer." What I'm saying is, in coming out to
                    > my
                    > > > client, I want my atheism to NOT MATTER, or to make them learn that it
                    > > > really doesn't matter, just as much as these days, it doesn't matter to
                    > > us
                    > > > whether or not the manager/government employee/doctor, etc. is
                    > > > homosexual/bisexual.
                    > > >
                    > > > Oh well. I think for now it's better to take the more pragmatic path
                    > and
                    > > > not bring it up, or if a similar situation happens to me again, then
                    > just
                    > > > make a convenient excuse like, "Sorry I have to study cases for
                    > hearings
                    > > > tomorrow" or "I'm really busy" (which wouldn't be lying either, because
                    > > we
                    > > > law students really ARE busy.)
                    > > >
                    > > > Again, many many thanks for the insights everyone. =) Am very happy I
                    > got
                    > > > back into the e-group, because heaven knows we all need a great support
                    > > > group in a country like this. =D
                    > > >
                    > > > And to Mark: Dude, it doesn't matter if I'm atheist or religious,
                    > > > because謡ell, you know how the lawyer jokes go--I chose to become a
                    > > lawyer
                    > > > I'm automatically banned from heaven, hahahaha. =D
                    > > >
                    > > > P.S. I read in Newsbreak that there was a survey among Filipinos about
                    > > > which professions they trusted the most. The no.1 trusted professionals
                    > > were
                    > > > priests, and the least trusted were遥ou guessed it様awyers. =P
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com
                    > > >,
                    > > > John <harmless168@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Fatima! I'm not a lawyer, but I really wouldn't advise you to
                    > "come
                    > > > out" to clients about your atheism, at least not if you plan to work in
                    > a
                    > > > country with a religious majority. It could likely be a hindrance to
                    > your
                    > > > career. Besides, why would you need to "come out" to clients anyway? In
                    > > my
                    > > > line of business, I've never had the need to bring out religious
                    > > beliefs...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ________________________________
                    > > > > From: Fatima Cruz <catharcyst_26@...>
                    > > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 1:32:06 AM
                    > > > > Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Any atheists lawyers out there? An atheist
                    > > law
                    > > > student needs help. =D
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi everyone!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Are there any atheist lawyers in the group, or any of us who know any
                    > > > personally? I'd just like to ask for some tips about coming out, and
                    > > whether
                    > > > or not I should come out in the first place, career-wise. In the
                    > future,
                    > > > should I admit to my clients and my potential employers about my
                    > atheism?
                    > > If
                    > > > I do, how should I do it? During my summer internship at the UP Office
                    > of
                    > > > Legal Aid, I once attempted to reveal my atheism to one of my clients.
                    > > > Needless to say, he was still very polite and grateful for the services
                    > I
                    > > > rendered but I noticed he became more distant--"asiwa, " actually, is
                    > the
                    > > > apt term for it. Please help! =D Many many thanks everyone!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -F
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > http://www.philippineatheists.org/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > http://www.philippineatheists.org/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • doug john
                    25 Blasphemous Quotations « blog.atheist.ie - [ Isalin ang pahinang ito ] 1 Jan 2010 ... blog.atheist.ie. Providing a platform for people who wish to work
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 3, 2010
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                      25 Blasphemous Quotations « blog.atheist.ie - [ Isalin ang pahinang ito ]
                      1 Jan 2010 ... blog.atheist.ie. Providing a platform for people who wish to work together to build a rational, ethical and secular society free from ...
                      blog.atheist.ie/?p=104 - 14mga oras na nakakalipas
                       
                      POSTED BY  DOUG ADAM


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