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RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?

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  • Luis Lim
    Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 19, 2009
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      Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the said empire.  The final paragraph of ch. 15 says it all:
      "But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies.  The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benifit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral and physical government of the world.   
       Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, 'or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire,' was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours.  Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experinced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence of the prodigy.  Each of these philosophers in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect.  Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe. A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contents himself with
      describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar......"
        
      --- On Sat, 20/6/09, mark cichon <mudguitars@...> wrote:

      From: mark cichon <mudguitars@...>
      Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
      To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 10:23 AM
























      Its call new testement

      -----Original Message-----

      Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:42:47 am

      To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com

      From: "theadamfamilyoz" <theadamfamilyoz@ yahoo.com. au>

      Subject: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?






      Thank you Igmidio and George for your comments on my email.





      My problem is whilst I can accept the idea that there is only a small


      amount of evidence outside the bible for the existence in History of


      Jesus and the point that this is at least curious considering the


      remarkable occurrences the were supposed to have taken place during his


      life, e.g. day turning to night, that's fine.





      But the few books I have read on the subject say there is no mention of


      a Jesus in the meticulously kept Jewish or Roman records of the time.


      Unfortunately sources of this assertion are lacking and I cannot find


      the records referred to.





      In my desire to want to believe once and for all the non existence of


      Jesus I have very naughtily accepted, almost as an article of faith,


      that these records exist, but where? Can someone guide me to them so I


      can confirm my faith in their existence?





      The only thing I am hanging my hat on at the moment is the


      "Testimonium Flavianum " where mention of Jesus is contain in


      only two short paragraphs, an obvious fraud, which suggests the


      counterfeiters found it necessary to insert them in the work because of


      the absence of real evidence, and that the following writers of the


      time never mentioned Jesus which is like saying that the writers


      commenting on the end of World War II would not mention the atomic


      bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.





      They Should Have Noticed








      John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and


      Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY,


      no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the


      time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have


      lived:





      Josephus


      Philo-Judæus


      Seneca


      Pliny Elder


      Arrian


      Petronius


      Dion Pruseus


      Paterculus


      Suetonius


      Juvenal


      Martial


      Persius


      Plutarch


      Pliny Younger


      Tacitus


      Justus of Tiberius


      Apollonius


      Quintilian


      Lucanus


      Epictetus


      Hermogones





      Silius Italicus


      Statius


      Ptolemy


      Appian


      Phlegon


      Phædrus


      Valerius Maximus


      Lucian


      Pausanias


      Florus Lucius


      Quintius Curtius


      Aulus Gellius


      Dio Chrysostom


      Columella


      Valerius Flaccus


      Damis


      Favorinus


      Lysias


      Pomponius Mela


      Appion of Alexandria


      Theon of Smyrna





      According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in


      the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish


      and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a


      Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers,


      there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do


      any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing


      the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation


      of Christianity.











      Is there anyone in Pinoy atheist land that can end my dilemma?





      Cheers Doug Adam











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    • doug john
        Dear :luis,   So what your are saying is that the Romans and the Jews did not record in anyway the events that are recorded in the bible and therefore no
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 19, 2009
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        Dear :luis,
         
        So what your are saying is that the Romans and the Jews did not record in anyway the events that are recorded in the bible and therefore no evidence exists outside the good book?
         
        Cheers Doug Adam

        --- On Sat, 20/6/09, Luis Lim <chitoblim@...> wrote:


        From: Luis Lim <chitoblim@...>
        Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
        To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 1:46 PM








        Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the said empire.  The final paragraph of ch. 15 says it all:
        "But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies.  The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benifit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral and physical government of the world.   
         Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, 'or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire,' was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours.  Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experinced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence of the prodigy.  Each of these philosophers in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect.  Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe. A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contents himself with
        describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar...... "
          
        --- On Sat, 20/6/09, mark cichon <mudguitars@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: mark cichon <mudguitars@yahoo. com>
        Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
        To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 10:23 AM

        Its call new testement

        -----Original Message-----

        Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:42:47 am

        To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com

        From: "theadamfamilyoz" <theadamfamilyoz@ yahoo.com. au>

        Subject: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?

        Thank you Igmidio and George for your comments on my email.

        My problem is whilst I can accept the idea that there is only a small

        amount of evidence outside the bible for the existence in History of

        Jesus and the point that this is at least curious considering the

        remarkable occurrences the were supposed to have taken place during his

        life, e.g. day turning to night, that's fine.

        But the few books I have read on the subject say there is no mention of

        a Jesus in the meticulously kept Jewish or Roman records of the time.

        Unfortunately sources of this assertion are lacking and I cannot find

        the records referred to.

        In my desire to want to believe once and for all the non existence of

        Jesus I have very naughtily accepted, almost as an article of faith,

        that these records exist, but where? Can someone guide me to them so I

        can confirm my faith in their existence?

        The only thing I am hanging my hat on at the moment is the

        "Testimonium Flavianum " where mention of Jesus is contain in

        only two short paragraphs, an obvious fraud, which suggests the

        counterfeiters found it necessary to insert them in the work because of

        the absence of real evidence, and that the following writers of the

        time never mentioned Jesus which is like saying that the writers

        commenting on the end of World War II would not mention the atomic

        bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

        They Should Have Noticed

        John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and

        Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY,

        no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the

        time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have

        lived:

        Josephus

        Philo-Judæus

        Seneca

        Pliny Elder

        Arrian

        Petronius

        Dion Pruseus

        Paterculus

        Suetonius

        Juvenal

        Martial

        Persius

        Plutarch

        Pliny Younger

        Tacitus

        Justus of Tiberius

        Apollonius

        Quintilian

        Lucanus

        Epictetus

        Hermogones

        Silius Italicus

        Statius

        Ptolemy

        Appian

        Phlegon

        Phædrus

        Valerius Maximus

        Lucian

        Pausanias

        Florus Lucius

        Quintius Curtius

        Aulus Gellius

        Dio Chrysostom

        Columella

        Valerius Flaccus

        Damis

        Favorinus

        Lysias

        Pomponius Mela

        Appion of Alexandria

        Theon of Smyrna

        According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in

        the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish

        and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a

        Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers,

        there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do

        any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing

        the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation

        of Christianity.

        Is there anyone in Pinoy atheist land that can end my dilemma?

        Cheers Doug Adam

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















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