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RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?

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  • doug john
    Dear Mark,   Thanks for that information but I am looking for evidence outside of the bible in Roman and Jewish records and the writings of the time. Please
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 19, 2009
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      Dear Mark,
       
      Thanks for that information but I am looking for evidence outside of the bible in Roman and Jewish records and the writings of the time. Please check back the email you will find what I mean
       
      Cheers Doug Adam
      --- On Sat, 20/6/09, mark cichon <mudguitars@...> wrote:


      From: mark cichon <mudguitars@...>
      Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
      To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 12:23 PM








      Its call new testement
      -----Original Message-----
      Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:42:47 am
      To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com
      From: "theadamfamilyoz" <theadamfamilyoz@ yahoo.com. au>
      Subject: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?


      Thank you Igmidio and George for your comments on my email.

      My problem is whilst I can accept the idea that there is only a small
      amount of evidence outside the bible for the existence in History of
      Jesus and the point that this is at least curious considering the
      remarkable occurrences the were supposed to have taken place during his
      life, e.g. day turning to night, that's fine.

      But the few books I have read on the subject say there is no mention of
      a Jesus in the meticulously kept Jewish or Roman records of the time.
      Unfortunately sources of this assertion are lacking and I cannot find
      the records referred to.

      In my desire to want to believe once and for all the non existence of
      Jesus I have very naughtily accepted, almost as an article of faith,
      that these records exist, but where? Can someone guide me to them so I
      can confirm my faith in their existence?

      The only thing I am hanging my hat on at the moment is the
      "Testimonium Flavianum " where mention of Jesus is contain in
      only two short paragraphs, an obvious fraud, which suggests the
      counterfeiters found it necessary to insert them in the work because of
      the absence of real evidence, and that the following writers of the
      time never mentioned Jesus which is like saying that the writers
      commenting on the end of World War II would not mention the atomic
      bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

      They Should Have Noticed


      John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and
      Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY,
      no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the
      time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have
      lived:

      Josephus
      Philo-Judæus
      Seneca
      Pliny Elder
      Arrian
      Petronius
      Dion Pruseus
      Paterculus
      Suetonius
      Juvenal
      Martial
      Persius
      Plutarch
      Pliny Younger
      Tacitus
      Justus of Tiberius
      Apollonius
      Quintilian
      Lucanus
      Epictetus
      Hermogones

      Silius Italicus
      Statius
      Ptolemy
      Appian
      Phlegon
      Phædrus
      Valerius Maximus
      Lucian
      Pausanias
      Florus Lucius
      Quintius Curtius
      Aulus Gellius
      Dio Chrysostom
      Columella
      Valerius Flaccus
      Damis
      Favorinus
      Lysias
      Pomponius Mela
      Appion of Alexandria
      Theon of Smyrna

      According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in
      the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish
      and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a
      Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers,
      there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do
      any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing
      the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation
      of Christianity.



      Is there anyone in Pinoy atheist land that can end my dilemma?

      Cheers Doug Adam



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    • Luis Lim
      Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 19, 2009
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        Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the said empire.  The final paragraph of ch. 15 says it all:
        "But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies.  The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benifit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral and physical government of the world.   
         Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, 'or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire,' was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours.  Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experinced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence of the prodigy.  Each of these philosophers in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect.  Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe. A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contents himself with
        describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar......"
          
        --- On Sat, 20/6/09, mark cichon <mudguitars@...> wrote:

        From: mark cichon <mudguitars@...>
        Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
        To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 10:23 AM
























        Its call new testement

        -----Original Message-----

        Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:42:47 am

        To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com

        From: "theadamfamilyoz" <theadamfamilyoz@ yahoo.com. au>

        Subject: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?






        Thank you Igmidio and George for your comments on my email.





        My problem is whilst I can accept the idea that there is only a small


        amount of evidence outside the bible for the existence in History of


        Jesus and the point that this is at least curious considering the


        remarkable occurrences the were supposed to have taken place during his


        life, e.g. day turning to night, that's fine.





        But the few books I have read on the subject say there is no mention of


        a Jesus in the meticulously kept Jewish or Roman records of the time.


        Unfortunately sources of this assertion are lacking and I cannot find


        the records referred to.





        In my desire to want to believe once and for all the non existence of


        Jesus I have very naughtily accepted, almost as an article of faith,


        that these records exist, but where? Can someone guide me to them so I


        can confirm my faith in their existence?





        The only thing I am hanging my hat on at the moment is the


        "Testimonium Flavianum " where mention of Jesus is contain in


        only two short paragraphs, an obvious fraud, which suggests the


        counterfeiters found it necessary to insert them in the work because of


        the absence of real evidence, and that the following writers of the


        time never mentioned Jesus which is like saying that the writers


        commenting on the end of World War II would not mention the atomic


        bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.





        They Should Have Noticed








        John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and


        Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY,


        no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the


        time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have


        lived:





        Josephus


        Philo-Judæus


        Seneca


        Pliny Elder


        Arrian


        Petronius


        Dion Pruseus


        Paterculus


        Suetonius


        Juvenal


        Martial


        Persius


        Plutarch


        Pliny Younger


        Tacitus


        Justus of Tiberius


        Apollonius


        Quintilian


        Lucanus


        Epictetus


        Hermogones





        Silius Italicus


        Statius


        Ptolemy


        Appian


        Phlegon


        Phædrus


        Valerius Maximus


        Lucian


        Pausanias


        Florus Lucius


        Quintius Curtius


        Aulus Gellius


        Dio Chrysostom


        Columella


        Valerius Flaccus


        Damis


        Favorinus


        Lysias


        Pomponius Mela


        Appion of Alexandria


        Theon of Smyrna





        According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in


        the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish


        and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a


        Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers,


        there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do


        any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing


        the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation


        of Christianity.











        Is there anyone in Pinoy atheist land that can end my dilemma?





        Cheers Doug Adam











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






































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        Now you can @... and @....
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      • doug john
          Dear :luis,   So what your are saying is that the Romans and the Jews did not record in anyway the events that are recorded in the bible and therefore no
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 19, 2009
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          Dear :luis,
           
          So what your are saying is that the Romans and the Jews did not record in anyway the events that are recorded in the bible and therefore no evidence exists outside the good book?
           
          Cheers Doug Adam

          --- On Sat, 20/6/09, Luis Lim <chitoblim@...> wrote:


          From: Luis Lim <chitoblim@...>
          Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
          To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
          Received: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 1:46 PM








          Edward Gibbon in his masterpiece, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, devoted chapters 15 and 16 on the growth of Christianity and its development in the said empire.  The final paragraph of ch. 15 says it all:
          "But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies.  The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benifit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral and physical government of the world.   
           Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, 'or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire,' was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours.  Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experinced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence of the prodigy.  Each of these philosophers in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect.  Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe. A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contents himself with
          describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar...... "
            
          --- On Sat, 20/6/09, mark cichon <mudguitars@yahoo. com> wrote:

          From: mark cichon <mudguitars@yahoo. com>
          Subject: RE: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?
          To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 10:23 AM

          Its call new testement

          -----Original Message-----

          Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:42:47 am

          To: pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com

          From: "theadamfamilyoz" <theadamfamilyoz@ yahoo.com. au>

          Subject: [pinoy_atheists] WHERE ARE THE JEWISH AND ROMAN RECORDS OF THE JESUS ERA?

          Thank you Igmidio and George for your comments on my email.

          My problem is whilst I can accept the idea that there is only a small

          amount of evidence outside the bible for the existence in History of

          Jesus and the point that this is at least curious considering the

          remarkable occurrences the were supposed to have taken place during his

          life, e.g. day turning to night, that's fine.

          But the few books I have read on the subject say there is no mention of

          a Jesus in the meticulously kept Jewish or Roman records of the time.

          Unfortunately sources of this assertion are lacking and I cannot find

          the records referred to.

          In my desire to want to believe once and for all the non existence of

          Jesus I have very naughtily accepted, almost as an article of faith,

          that these records exist, but where? Can someone guide me to them so I

          can confirm my faith in their existence?

          The only thing I am hanging my hat on at the moment is the

          "Testimonium Flavianum " where mention of Jesus is contain in

          only two short paragraphs, an obvious fraud, which suggests the

          counterfeiters found it necessary to insert them in the work because of

          the absence of real evidence, and that the following writers of the

          time never mentioned Jesus which is like saying that the writers

          commenting on the end of World War II would not mention the atomic

          bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

          They Should Have Noticed

          John E. Remsburg, in his classic book The Christ: A Critical Review and

          Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence (The Truth Seeker Company, NY,

          no date, pp. 24-25), lists the following writers who lived during the

          time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have

          lived:

          Josephus

          Philo-Judæus

          Seneca

          Pliny Elder

          Arrian

          Petronius

          Dion Pruseus

          Paterculus

          Suetonius

          Juvenal

          Martial

          Persius

          Plutarch

          Pliny Younger

          Tacitus

          Justus of Tiberius

          Apollonius

          Quintilian

          Lucanus

          Epictetus

          Hermogones

          Silius Italicus

          Statius

          Ptolemy

          Appian

          Phlegon

          Phædrus

          Valerius Maximus

          Lucian

          Pausanias

          Florus Lucius

          Quintius Curtius

          Aulus Gellius

          Dio Chrysostom

          Columella

          Valerius Flaccus

          Damis

          Favorinus

          Lysias

          Pomponius Mela

          Appion of Alexandria

          Theon of Smyrna

          According to Remsburg, "Enough of the writings of the authors named in

          the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish

          and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a

          Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers,

          there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, we may add, do

          any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles - increasing

          the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation

          of Christianity.

          Is there anyone in Pinoy atheist land that can end my dilemma?

          Cheers Doug Adam

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















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