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2904Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET

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  • von cortes
    Apr 4, 2006
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      Indeed, even amongst themselves they seem to lack interest in ever arriving at a
      commonality of belief! Being so, it wouldn't be easy (but not impossible) for us to uphold
      our 'duty' it would seem. They are just as godamned varied as the common virus, and
      pretty much like so too.



      --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "joma_sison" <joma_sison@...> wrote:
      >
      > Whether God's properties are in agreement with you or not isn't our
      > primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the
      > Christians we have to (at least) acknowledge what they believe in.
      > We even have to give some of our rope -- which is, God exist!
      >
      > Anyway, majority of Christians define their God as someone who is
      > all-knowing, all powerful, all-present and morally good. These are
      > the basic. There are those who are in debate on transcendental
      > nature, on freewill, and on the question of who will be saved. Meron
      > kasing who claim that they are pre-destined or what they termed "the
      > elect". Still, some denomination argues that all of us will be
      > saved. Majority believe that Salvation is earned by individual.
      >
      > Many, if not all, Christians talks of Heaven (and Hell) with
      > certainty. However, on close scrutiny, none of them has the solid
      > knowledge of the place (if ever that one exists). They even have a
      > varying and contradicting concepts of Hell!
      >
      > Our duty (tama ba ang term?) is to show them the contradiction as
      > you have laid out in your example. In my opinion, the contradicting
      > feature of their God is one of our best bet when discussing with
      > well-intentioned Christians. But again, I must emphasize here, we've
      > got to know them, of what they believe.
      >
      > In other words, to reach an open minded Christian, you have to crawl
      > under his skin. It is not easy and in many cases, you will not
      > notice any glitter of understanding on their part. But many of them
      > are smart and intelligent. The psychological hold of their God in
      > them is so tight that it may take some time before what you are
      > saying will likely to sink in – if you are fucking lucky.
      >
      >
      > joma
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "von cortes"
      > <element_115x@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one
      > is to consider what's written
      > > on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-
      > xtian book.
      > >
      > > What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c
      > reads: "... you shall not listen
      > > to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the
      > LORD your God is testing
      > > you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart
      > and with all your
      > > soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare
      > then why must he "test" us
      > > in order for him to know?
      > >
      > > Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as
      > a scare tactic to capitalize
      > > on their flock!
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison
      > <joma_sison@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the
      > desire to be eternal. The
      > > belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the
      > afterlife"
      > > >
      > > > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes
      > of prayers, then God
      > > contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let
      > me illustrate: God knows a
      > > person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that
      > prayer. In that case God
      > > was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see
      > things "all at once" and
      > > therefore God is not all-knowing.
      > > >
      > > > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another
      > cans of worm. God is not
      > > eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a
      > feature of God.
      > > >
      > > > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being.
      > An all-knowing and
      > > unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go
      > against his nature. For if he
      > > does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction
      > and therefore, cannot
      > > exist.
      > > >
      > > > joma
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > zach <zachssecret@> wrote:
      > > > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess
      > no matter how many
      > > promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
      > all know that it is a
      > > fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > jose mario sison <joma_sison@> wrote:
      > > > Besides, why bother to get healed?
      > > > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
      > > > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with
      > the Lord?
      > > >
      > > > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting
      > God (after his stint here)
      > > > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
      > > >
      > > > Why see a doctor?
      > > >
      > > > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@> wrote:
      > > > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully
      > believes in the "healing"
      > > powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
      > treatment?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Romeo Macapobre
      > > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ;
      > Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study
      > fails to show healing power
      > > of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
      > > >
      > > > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective
      > from the
      > > > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable
      > environment where
      > > > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we
      > look for the
      > > > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic
      > defect. if we
      > > > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene.
      > we also fail
      > > > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for
      > healing then
      > > > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
      > government
      > > > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless
      > people are
      > > > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and
      > survive to tell
      > > > the tale ..
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > >
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