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2903Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study fails to show healing power of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET

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  • joma_sison
    Apr 4, 2006
      Whether God's properties are in agreement with you or not isn't our
      primary concern. To understand (and eventually rebuke) the
      Christians we have to (at least) acknowledge what they believe in.
      We even have to give some of our rope -- which is, God exist!

      Anyway, majority of Christians define their God as someone who is
      all-knowing, all powerful, all-present and morally good. These are
      the basic. There are those who are in debate on transcendental
      nature, on freewill, and on the question of who will be saved. Meron
      kasing who claim that they are pre-destined or what they termed "the
      elect". Still, some denomination argues that all of us will be
      saved. Majority believe that Salvation is earned by individual.

      Many, if not all, Christians talks of Heaven (and Hell) with
      certainty. However, on close scrutiny, none of them has the solid
      knowledge of the place (if ever that one exists). They even have a
      varying and contradicting concepts of Hell!

      Our duty (tama ba ang term?) is to show them the contradiction as
      you have laid out in your example. In my opinion, the contradicting
      feature of their God is one of our best bet when discussing with
      well-intentioned Christians. But again, I must emphasize here, we've
      got to know them, of what they believe.

      In other words, to reach an open minded Christian, you have to crawl
      under his skin. It is not easy and in many cases, you will not
      notice any glitter of understanding on their part. But many of them
      are smart and intelligent. The psychological hold of their God in
      them is so tight that it may take some time before what you are
      saying will likely to sink in – if you are fucking lucky.


      joma



      --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "von cortes"
      <element_115x@...> wrote:
      >
      > The "all-knowingness' of god i gather is not really true, if one
      is to consider what's written
      > on Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 and Genesis 22:10-12 of the judeo-
      xtian book.
      >
      > What's really interesting is the one on Deuteronomy 13:3 w/c
      reads: "... you shall not listen
      > to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the
      LORD your God is testing
      > you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart
      and with all your
      > soul." Now if god really is "all-knowing" as the fundies declare
      then why must he "test" us
      > in order for him to know?
      >
      > Church controllers probably fabricated this "all-knowing" shit as
      a scare tactic to capitalize
      > on their flock!
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, jose mario sison
      <joma_sison@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I understand what you are saying Zach. The denial of death, the
      desire to be eternal. The
      > belief that this life is not "the life". The life is "the
      afterlife"
      > >
      > > But if God (it does exist-for arguments sake) grant the wishes
      of prayers, then God
      > contradicts one of his feature, that is, - He is all-knowing. Let
      me illustrate: God knows a
      > person will die. Now his relatives prayed and God granted that
      prayer. In that case God
      > was not sure whether a person lives or die. He does not see
      things "all at once" and
      > therefore God is not all-knowing.
      > >
      > > Now - this granting of wishes/prayer by God - open another
      cans of worm. God is not
      > eternal. If god grants prayers, the He is not "unchanging" - a
      feature of God.
      > >
      > > Now we have a situation of all-knowing and unchanging being.
      An all-knowing and
      > unchanging being cannot grant a wish or prayer. He cannot go
      against his nature. For if he
      > does contradict himself, then he is inconsistent, a contradiction
      and therefore, cannot
      > exist.
      > >
      > > joma
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > zach <zachssecret@> wrote:
      > > I think it is still human nature..the denial of death. i guess
      no matter how many
      > promises faith can give about meeting the father or the maker, we
      all know that it is a
      > fallacy and no one really knows what comes after death.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > jose mario sison <joma_sison@> wrote:
      > > Besides, why bother to get healed?
      > > Isnt that in Death we meet our Maker?
      > > Isnt it what a true red-blooded Christian's wish - to be with
      the Lord?
      > >
      > > Why pray to live when at the back of a theist mind is meeting
      God (after his stint here)
      > > Why not "God dont heal me, let me die - to be with you"?
      > >
      > > Why see a doctor?
      > >
      > > "Lew Andrew D. Reyes" <ldreyes@> wrote:
      > > Good point. If a disease-stricken theist truly and faithfully
      believes in the "healing"
      > powers of prayer, then why even bother taking medication or
      treatment?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Romeo Macapobre
      > > To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com ;
      Atheisthaven@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:47 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Fwd: Reuters.com - Study
      fails to show healing power
      > of prayer - Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:42 PM ET
      > >
      > >
      > > > Does prayer work (for healing)?
      > >
      > > why do we get sick? it could be that our bodies are defective
      from the
      > > start. it could be that we were exposed to an inhospitable
      environment where
      > > our bodies resistance failed. to get better from sickness we
      look for the
      > > cause or how the process works. a bacteria. a toxin. a genetic
      defect. if we
      > > fail to know the cause or the process, where we can intervene.
      we also fail
      > > to cure. if a person truly believes in the power of prayer for
      healing then
      > > s/he shouldnt be spending money paying for treatment. or using
      government
      > > resources at public hospitals. it does not make sense. unless
      people are
      > > hypocrites. but how many theists do we know who did that and
      survive to tell
      > > the tale ..
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
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