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Re: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?

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  • Jeremy Dixon
    Another point of interest, an earlier  Fountaine, the amateur architect and friend of Jonathon Swift who designed Narford Hall and founded the family as
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 3 2:46 AM
      Another point of interest, an earlier  Fountaine, the amateur architect and friend of Jonathon Swift who designed Narford Hall and founded the family as gentry, had a famous art collection. It was broken up in 1883 (thanks wikipedia).

      However, the recent Fountaine was an art collector too. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=254489 A valuable painting "The Three Witches" was sold from the Fountaine Collection at Narford Hall in 1976. It was resold in 1995 which is why  a net search brings it up.

      So what with the hounds and the art and the proximity Monica English could hardly have avoided meeting Fountaine.  He's the right man all right. (The hounds connection btw is more than a common interest, they will all have belonged to the same fox-hunting group which had royal patronage....)

      A lot of art in this story. Gardner was an amateur artist too.

      The right wing connection makes a lot of sense. The story is that a military secret society operated in the area called the Grey Goose Feather, taking its name from the Mucky Porter legend recorded by Barrett. In sixties UK there was talk of revolution on the left and coups on the right; the existence of such a secret society dedicated ostensibly to protecting the king in time of turmoil is very credible. It also may give a clue to some of the tensions recorded, the hostility of the plain farmer folk in the coven to the activities of ME, Gardner not joining ME's coven, all of this may have been connected in part with Fountaine's fascism...


      From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
      To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, 31 December 2011 9:08 AM
      Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?

       


      .

      This is a copy of my next post on the Monica English thread on the Traditional Witch forum:

      Yesterday Tuesday December 27, 2011

      I finally received my copy of the book "Dancing with Witches" by Lois Bourne.

      In this book Lois Bourne does not mention Monica English by her name. She calls her "Margo" probably to hide her identity.

      From Lois Bourne's book in Chapter Five

      Page 52

      "A few weeks later, Margo and Bertram appeared at my home for tea.

      I had been somewhat dazed by her revelations, but the meeting with Bertram was reality. He was a tall, heavily built man, rather swarthy in appearance, with thick black hair and very dark eyes. I have always considered dark eyes to be warm, but his were coal black, cool and had a slightly menacing quality; I felt that he could be a formidable opponent if crossed. He had a very deep voice, well-educated and cultured. He was a business man by profession and, I learned later, very wealthy. He drove an expensive-looking car…"

      "The visit was pleasant, and our discussions ranged from witchcraft and magic, to music and books, but I was very much aware that he was observing me closely; for my part, I was observing him too. I gained the impression that he enjoyed a strong alliance with alcohol, and I reflected privately on the condition of his liver. It would not be true to say that I did not warm up to him, I was wary of him. He appeared to have a close relationship with Margo, and they were very comfortable together."

      The description given by my friend who was living in Bridge House in 1956 to 1957:

      "A man her age would often drive up the driveway in a brand new 1956 gull wing Mercedes and they would leave together. I recall my parents and Joan O'Neil having some adult conversations regarding these events. My recollection is that his name was "Mr. Fontaine".

      Mr. Fontaine, I would think he would have been a local person (Norfolk anyway). I would guess that he could be best described, as the Brits would say, "dashing". Also must have had some wealth to be driving the car he had"

      He also mentioned that he had had a full head of black hair.

      From Lois Bourne's book in Chapter Nine

      (And after the death of Gerald Gardner, Lois Bourne then decides to join Margo in her Norfolk coven on the Hallowe'en Festival or Samhain 1964).

      Page 99

      "The ceremony of my initiation was conducted by Margo, assisted by Bertram. (My original impression of him had been tempered by greater familiarity, and I no longer regarded him as being slightly sinister - although my private observations as to the condition of his liver were unchanged.)"

      .



    • William
      Thanks for the comment Jeremy Another exciting day for the research Today I recieved an email from a member of the Fountaine family of Narford Hall and she
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 3 7:15 PM
        Thanks for the comment Jeremy


        Another exciting day for the research


        Today I recieved an email from a member of the Fountaine family of Narford Hall and she mentioned in her brief email:


        "According to my mother in law Monica eventually left Bob and married someone else - not sure who."


        included with the email was a picture of Andrew Fountaine as a younger man so i can show my friend.


        So Mrs. Fountaine's comment cements the fact that Andrew Fountaine and his wife knew and were friends with Robert and Monica English.



        But now the search is also on for still another husband of Monica?


        If she did married again there could be a possibily that Monica met this person from or someone connected with the Norfolk coven?


        But by the late 1970's Monica and her mother were living at Brafferton Hall at the time they died. So it would look like she came back to Robert English in the end.


        Amazing her history continues to grow.


        Bill The Exile






        --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bill, I don't think there is any serious doubt that you have identified "Mr Fontaine". Furthermore while it is not yet certain that he is "Bertram" it is highly probable.
        >
        > And this is big, it brings us into what  we might call mainstream history.
        > -j
        >
      • William
        Interesting, concerning the Three Witches painting. I first saw that picture, as a black and white drawing of the three witches on the book cover from Eric
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 3 7:29 PM
          Interesting, concerning the Three Witches painting.


          I first saw that picture, as a black and white drawing of the three witches on the book cover from Eric Maple's book "The Dark World of Witches" when I bought it in August 2010. I was then wondering where the art work came from.


          Since then I seen it several times on the internet in color.


          And now it turned out to be that it was owned by the Fountaine family before.


          Another example of stuff that i independently read or see about that later becomes something related to what I'm researching later on.



          I need to read up on the Grey Goose stuff




          --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
          >
          > Another point of interest, an earlier  Fountaine, the amateur architect and friend of Jonathon Swift who designed Narford Hall and founded the family as gentry, had a famous art collection. It was broken up in 1883 (thanks wikipedia).
          >
          > However, the recent Fountaine was an art collector too. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=254489%c3%82%c2%a0A valuable painting "The Three Witches" was sold from the Fountaine Collection at Narford Hall in 1976. It was resold in 1995 which is why  a net search brings it up.
          >
          > So what with the hounds and the art and the proximity Monica English could hardly have avoided meeting Fountaine.  He's the right man all right. (The hounds connection btw is more than a common interest, they will all have belonged to the same fox-hunting group which had royal patronage....)
          >
          > A lot of art in this story. Gardner was an amateur artist too.
          >
          > The right wing connection makes a lot of sense. The story is that a military secret society operated in the area called the Grey Goose Feather, taking its name from the Mucky Porter legend recorded by Barrett. In sixties UK there was talk of revolution on the left and coups on the right; the existence of such a secret society dedicated ostensibly to protecting the king in time of turmoil is very credible. It also may give a clue to some of the tensions recorded, the hostility of the plain farmer folk in the coven to the activities of ME, Gardner not joining ME's coven, all of this may have been connected in part with Fountaine's fascism...
          >
          >
          >
        • Jeremy Dixon
          I m just on the run at the moment but the edition of Dark World with that painting on the cover was before 1976, right? When the painting was situated at
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 3 7:59 PM
            I'm just on the run at the moment but the edition of Dark World with that painting on the cover was before 1976, right? When the painting was situated at Narford Hall? This raises another intriguing possibility, that Eric Maple knew Andrew Fountaine......


            From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
            To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, 4 January 2012 2:29 PM
            Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?

             


            Interesting, concerning the Three Witches painting.

            I first saw that picture, as a black and white drawing of the three witches on the book cover from Eric Maple's book "The Dark World of Witches" when I bought it in August 2010. I was then wondering where the art work came from.

            Since then I seen it several times on the internet in color.

            And now it turned out to be that it was owned by the Fountaine family before.

            Another example of stuff that i independently read or see about that later becomes something related to what I'm researching later on.

            I need to read up on the Grey Goose stuff

            --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
            >
            > Another point of interest, an earlier  Fountaine, the amateur architect and friend of Jonathon Swift who designed Narford Hall and founded the family as gentry, had a famous art collection. It was broken up in 1883 (thanks wikipedia).
            >
            > However, the recent Fountaine was an art collector too. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=254489 A valuable painting "The Three Witches" was sold from the Fountaine Collection at Narford Hall in 1976. It was resold in 1995 which is why  a net search brings it up.
            >
            > So what with the hounds and the art and the proximity Monica English could hardly have avoided meeting Fountaine.  He's the right man all right. (The hounds connection btw is more than a common interest, they will all have belonged to the same fox-hunting group which had royal patronage....)
            >
            > A lot of art in this story. Gardner was an amateur artist too.
            >
            > The right wing connection makes a lot of sense. The story is that a military secret society operated in the area called the Grey Goose Feather, taking its name from the Mucky Porter legend recorded by Barrett. In sixties UK there was talk of revolution on the left and coups on the right; the existence of such a secret society dedicated ostensibly to protecting the king in time of turmoil is very credible. It also may give a clue to some of the tensions recorded, the hostility of the plain farmer folk in the coven to the activities of ME, Gardner not joining ME's coven, all of this may have been connected in part with Fountaine's fascism...
            >
            >
            >



          • William
            I just checked the book. There is nothing on the book cover or inside flaps or in the book that mentions about the illustration on the cover. But the book was
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 3 8:29 PM
              I just checked the book.

              There is nothing on the book cover or inside flaps or in the book that mentions about the illustration on the cover.

              But the book was "Third Large printing"

              and inside says
              1962, 1964 Eric Maple
              A.S. Barnes & Co., Inc.
              Cranbury, New Jersey

              probably the earliest printing to be printed in America

              But still 1960's



              --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm just on the run at the moment but the edition of Dark World with that painting on the cover was before 1976, right? When the painting was situated at Narford Hall? This raises another intriguing possibility, that Eric Maple knew Andrew Fountaine......
              >
              >
            • Jeremy Dixon
              Interesting link is Burke s commons of 1836, http://www.archive.org/details/agenealogicalan09burkgoog, gives a history of the Fountaine family (it does mean
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 4 9:51 PM
                Interesting link is Burke's commons of 1836, http://www.archive.org/details/agenealogicalan09burkgoog, gives a history of the Fountaine family (it does mean "fountain"!). Also interesting stuff on Catholic gentry......Narford Hall seems tp be sort of the hall-next-door to Oxburgh, the seat of the Bedingfield catholics. I am remembering the catholic priest who is said to have belonged to the coven (and everything else is checking out..) and am expecting a cathlic connection to the Fountaine family.....maybe not, can't have everything.....

                Another connection, maybe, is to Dennis Wheatley, a long time since I've read his books but he had a "John Fountain" hero, and you gotta wonder. Wheatley was of course of the far right himself, although liberal as regards sex.....


                From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
                To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, 30 December 2011 2:08 PM
                Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?

                 


                .

                This is a copy of my next post on the Monica English thread on the Traditional Witch forum:

                Yesterday Tuesday December 27, 2011

                I finally received my copy of the book "Dancing with Witches" by Lois Bourne.

                In this book Lois Bourne does not mention Monica English by her name. She calls her "Margo" probably to hide her identity.

                From Lois Bourne's book in Chapter Five

                Page 52

                "A few weeks later, Margo and Bertram appeared at my home for tea.

                I had been somewhat dazed by her revelations, but the meeting with Bertram was reality. He was a tall, heavily built man, rather swarthy in appearance, with thick black hair and very dark eyes. I have always considered dark eyes to be warm, but his were coal black, cool and had a slightly menacing quality; I felt that he could be a formidable opponent if crossed. He had a very deep voice, well-educated and cultured. He was a business man by profession and, I learned later, very wealthy. He drove an expensive-looking car…"

                "The visit was pleasant, and our discussions ranged from witchcraft and magic, to music and books, but I was very much aware that he was observing me closely; for my part, I was observing him too. I gained the impression that he enjoyed a strong alliance with alcohol, and I reflected privately on the condition of his liver. It would not be true to say that I did not warm up to him, I was wary of him. He appeared to have a close relationship with Margo, and they were very comfortable together."

                The description given by my friend who was living in Bridge House in 1956 to 1957:

                "A man her age would often drive up the driveway in a brand new 1956 gull wing Mercedes and they would leave together. I recall my parents and Joan O'Neil having some adult conversations regarding these events. My recollection is that his name was "Mr. Fontaine".

                Mr. Fontaine, I would think he would have been a local person (Norfolk anyway). I would guess that he could be best described, as the Brits would say, "dashing". Also must have had some wealth to be driving the car he had"

                He also mentioned that he had had a full head of black hair.

                From Lois Bourne's book in Chapter Nine

                (And after the death of Gerald Gardner, Lois Bourne then decides to join Margo in her Norfolk coven on the Hallowe'en Festival or Samhain 1964).

                Page 99

                "The ceremony of my initiation was conducted by Margo, assisted by Bertram. (My original impression of him had been tempered by greater familiarity, and I no longer regarded him as being slightly sinister - although my private observations as to the condition of his liver were unchanged.)"

                .



              • Jeremy Dixon
                Looking for Fountaine in JSTOR found only art references.....on from the Burlington Magazine vol 130 December 1988 Dutch and Flemish Painting in Norfolk
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 9 4:07 PM
                  Looking for Fountaine in JSTOR found only art references.....on from the Burlington Magazine vol 130 December 1988 "Dutch and Flemish Painting in Norfolk" talks  about the traditionak influence of the Netherlands on East Anglia from the middle ages to the mid 19th century....it also notes that an exhibition in Norwich is enriched by loans from the "unknown" holdings at Narford. Not much open to the public it seems....

                  From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
                  >To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Wednesday, 4 January 2012 3:29 PM
                  >Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?
                  >
                  >

                  >I just checked the book.
                  >
                  >There is nothing on the book cover or inside flaps or in the book that mentions about the illustration on the cover.
                  >
                  >But the book was "Third Large printing"
                  >
                  >and inside says
                  >1962, 1964 Eric Maple
                  >A.S. Barnes & Co., Inc.
                  >Cranbury, New Jersey
                  >
                  >probably the earliest printing to be printed in America
                  >
                  >But still 1960's
                  >
                  >--- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I'm just on the run at the moment but the edition of Dark World with that painting on the cover was before 1976, right? When the painting was situated at Narford Hall? This raises another intriguing possibility, that Eric Maple knew Andrew Fountaine......
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jeremy
                  On the subject of the catholic connection, the 1878 edition of Rome s recruits : a list of Protestants who have become Catholics since the Tractarian
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 16 3:56 AM
                    On the subject of the catholic connection, the 1878 edition of "Rome's recruits : a list of Protestants who have become Catholics since the Tractarian movement" (it is digitized online) lists
                    "Miss Fountaine, daughter of Andrew Fountaine, of Narford Hall, Norfolk" as a Catholic convert.

                    (It also lists a Penrose but apparently not connected to the Norfolk Penroses....I am still betting btw that the Penroses will turn out to be relevant.)

                    I would very much like to know who that priest involved with the coven was, and who the Lord and Lady of the coven were. Speculation is easy of course....I have learnt my lesson from jumping to conclusions about Frances Penrose. However, given what we now know about the Monica English coven I think we can safely assume that the Lord and Lady were real aristocrats.

                    Also the coven sometimes met in a barn owned by a member of the coven (I think we can rely on MH's information, everything has checked out so far....)and there is a famous big barn, well as famous as big barns get, in Gayton....not jumping to conclusions about it but it is surely worth checking out.

                    --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
                  • William
                    Interesting that you found a Fountaine converted to Catholic. I have been wondering about the Lord and Lady of the coven too. at first I thought it could be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 16 1:23 PM
                      Interesting that you found a Fountaine converted to Catholic.


                      I have been wondering about the Lord and Lady of the coven too.

                      at first I thought it could be the parents of Andrew Fountaine but then I find that his father (a former Rear Admiral) died in 1946 and the mother was still alive but she would have been around 78-79 at the time Lois Bourne saw them (Mrs. Fountaine died at the age of 83 in 1968).

                      Lois Bourne mentioned the 'Lady' was in her mid 60's in ca. 1964.


                      So it is most likely some other couple.


                      It turned out that the "Mr. Foster" in the picture standing next to Robert English was an Estate Agent for Narford Hall, he was employed by Andrew Fountaine. And he was seen visiting the Englishes several times in 1956-1957 period. He was a friend of the Englishes.

                      Andrew Fountaine also dealt with timber that was grown on the Estate and sold to Timber merchants.

                      My next letter to my Fountaine contact will be difficult to write as I will have to let them know about my research into the witch side of Monica in order to be able to ask them about the Lord and the Lady, the catholic priest and questions about the Norfolk coven.

                      So there is the possibility that they slam the door shut and they don't write anymore.
                    • Jeremy Dixon
                      The obvious family to look at for the Lord and Lady is the Bedingfields....not necessarily the right family of course and I recall the head of the family at
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 16 10:44 PM
                        The obvious family to look at for the Lord and Lady is the Bedingfields....not necessarily the right family of course and I recall the head of the family at the right time was not the right age.......but still the obvious family to look at. The are a famous diehard catholic family and there seat is at Oxburgh and Holme hale (just for example) is in the traditional lands of a cadet branch of the family.  

                        There is an interesting book, moslty online on Googe Books, 
                        I Walked by Night: Being the Philosophy of the King of the Norfolk Poachers By Fred Rolfe, and Lilias Rider Haggard .............chapter 2 talks of witches etc, and there is information from a sceptical poacher's viewpoint on walking toad spells and so forth. Of some interest.
                        -j



                        >________________________________
                        > From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
                        >To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
                        >Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2012 8:23 AM
                        >Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?
                        >
                        >

                        >
                        >
                        >Interesting that you found a Fountaine converted to Catholic.
                        >
                        >I have been wondering about the Lord and Lady of the coven too.
                        >
                        >at first I thought it could be the parents of Andrew Fountaine but then I find that his father (a former Rear Admiral) died in 1946 and the mother was still alive but she would have been around 78-79 at the time Lois Bourne saw them (Mrs. Fountaine died at the age of 83 in 1968).
                        >
                        >Lois Bourne mentioned the 'Lady' was in her mid 60's in ca. 1964.
                        >
                        >So it is most likely some other couple.
                        >
                        >It turned out that the "Mr. Foster" in the picture standing next to Robert English was an Estate Agent for Narford Hall, he was employed by Andrew Fountaine.  And he was seen visiting the Englishes several times in 1956-1957 period.  He was a friend of the Englishes.
                        >
                        >Andrew Fountaine also dealt with timber that was grown on the Estate and sold to Timber merchants.
                        >
                        >My next letter to my Fountaine contact will be difficult to write as I will have to let them know about my research into the witch side of Monica in order to be able to ask them about the Lord and the Lady, the catholic priest and questions about the Norfolk coven.
                        >
                        >So there is the possibility that they slam the door shut and they don't write anymore.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jeremy
                        A couple of points of interest about the I Walked By Night material. The poacher himself had never seen a walking toad, just heard of them. He mentioned the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 16 11:12 PM
                          A couple of points of interest about the "I Walked By Night" material. The poacher himself had never seen a walking toad, just heard of them. He mentioned the powers of horsemen but professed to be sceptical that anything magical was involved, just good practice. Toad magic he associated with witches rather than horsemen; in a footnote the book tells a story about a "Norfolk wise-woman" immobilising a horse she believed to be overloaded; in other words using the "horseman's word" power to prevent animal cruelty, much as was told of Elizabeth Cooper in Cambridgeshire, a stock witch story it would seem.

                          By this account the toad bone ritual had to be carried out on St Mark's Eve, 24/25 April. His information came in large part from his grandparents, his grandfather was a mole-catcher.

                          --- In pickingill@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Dixon <jeremytrewindixon@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The obvious family to look at for the Lord and Lady is the Bedingfields....not necessarily the right family of course and I recall the head of the family at the right time was not the right age.......but still the obvious family to look at. The are a famous diehard catholic family and there seat is at Oxburgh and Holme hale (just for example) is in the traditional lands of a cadet branch of the family.  
                          >
                          > There is an interesting book, moslty online on Googe Books, 
                          > I Walked by Night: Being the Philosophy of the King of the Norfolk Poachers By Fred Rolfe, and Lilias Rider Haggard .............chapter 2 talks of witches etc, and there is information from a sceptical poacher's viewpoint on walking toad spells and so forth. Of some interest.
                          > -j
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >________________________________
                          > > From: William <the_exile_forest@...>
                          > >To: pickingill@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2012 8:23 AM
                          > >Subject: [pickingill] Re: "Bertram" of the Norfolk coven -- Andrew Fountaine ?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Interesting that you found a Fountaine converted to Catholic.
                          > >
                          > >I have been wondering about the Lord and Lady of the coven too.
                          > >
                          > >at first I thought it could be the parents of Andrew Fountaine but then I find that his father (a former Rear Admiral) died in 1946 and the mother was still alive but she would have been around 78-79 at the time Lois Bourne saw them (Mrs. Fountaine died at the age of 83 in 1968).
                          > >
                          > >Lois Bourne mentioned the 'Lady' was in her mid 60's in ca. 1964.
                          > >
                          > >So it is most likely some other couple.
                          > >
                          > >It turned out that the "Mr. Foster" in the picture standing next to Robert English was an Estate Agent for Narford Hall, he was employed by Andrew Fountaine.  And he was seen visiting the Englishes several times in 1956-1957 period.  He was a friend of the Englishes.
                          > >
                          > >Andrew Fountaine also dealt with timber that was grown on the Estate and sold to Timber merchants.
                          > >
                          > >My next letter to my Fountaine contact will be difficult to write as I will have to let them know about my research into the witch side of Monica in order to be able to ask them about the Lord and the Lady, the catholic priest and questions about the Norfolk coven.
                          > >
                          > >So there is the possibility that they slam the door shut and they don't write anymore.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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