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Re:comments on Anti Aliasing filterless design ?

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  • PhotoRoy6@...
    Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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      Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
      "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
       
      If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out with anti aliasing filter and why can one get away without the filter now?
       
      Roy
    • Trevor Cunningham
      I m wondering this myself.
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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        I'm wondering this myself.

        On 3/4/13 5:16 PM, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
        > Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
        > "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for
        > rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
        > If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_
        > anti aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
        > Roy
      • Tina Manley
        Leica rangefinders never had the AA filter and therefore had better fine detail; however, the M8 s did have a problem with moire and magenta casts which the AA
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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          Leica rangefinders never had the AA filter and therefore had better fine detail; however, the M8's did have a problem with moire and magenta casts which the AA filter fixes.  Leica came out with special filters to use on the front of the lens to remedy this.  By the time they came out with the M9, sensors had improved so that a very, very thin AA filter could be used with did not interfere with the fine detail but also remedied the moire problem.  I assume the other camera manufacturers are catching up and using improved sensors that either don't need an AA filter or use a very thin one.

          Tina

          On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, <PhotoRoy6@...> wrote:
          Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
          "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
           
          If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out with anti aliasing filter and why can one get away without the filter now?
           
          Roy



          --
          Tina Manley, ASMP
          www.tinamanley.com
        • John Gulliver
          Some say the M8 still renders ultimately better detail than the M9 because of the lack of AA filter and despite being a smaller sensor.
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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            Some say the M8 still renders ultimately better detail than the M9 because of the lack of AA filter and despite being a smaller sensor.

            On 4 March 2013 14:26, Trevor Cunningham <trevor@...> wrote:
            I'm wondering this myself.

            On 3/4/13 5:16 PM, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
            Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
            "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
            If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
            Roy


          • Tina Manley
            I have both and disagree; however, the Leica MM - Monochrom - beats them both for detail. It s phenomenal. Tina ... -- Tina Manley, ASMP www.tinamanley.com
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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              I have both and disagree; however, the Leica MM - Monochrom - beats them both for detail. It's phenomenal.

              Tina

              On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:50 AM, John Gulliver <j.gulliver@...> wrote:
              Some say the M8 still renders ultimately better detail than the M9 because of the lack of AA filter and despite being a smaller sensor.


              On 4 March 2013 14:26, Trevor Cunningham <trevor@...> wrote:
              I'm wondering this myself.

              On 3/4/13 5:16 PM, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
              Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
              "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
              If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
              Roy





              --
              Tina Manley, ASMP
              www.tinamanley.com
            • RsLittle
              They can get ride of the aa filter because of new and better de misaic algorithms.   The will still moire under many circumstances.  From my Android phone on
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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                They can get ride of the aa filter because of new and better de misaic algorithms.   The will still moire under many circumstances. 


                From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.



                -------- Original message --------
                From: Tina Manley <images@...>
                Date: 03/04/2013 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
                To: List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - Students <photoforum@...>
                Subject: Re: comments on Anti Aliasing filterless design ?


                I have both and disagree; however, the Leica MM - Monochrom - beats them both for detail. It's phenomenal.

                Tina

                On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:50 AM, John Gulliver <j.gulliver@...> wrote:
                Some say the M8 still renders ultimately better detail than the M9 because of the lack of AA filter and despite being a smaller sensor.


                On 4 March 2013 14:26, Trevor Cunningham <trevor@...> wrote:
                I'm wondering this myself.

                On 3/4/13 5:16 PM, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
                Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
                "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
                If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
                Roy





                --
                Tina Manley, ASMP
                www.tinamanley.com
              • Pablo Coronel
                I guess both sensors and software have improved to the point where jagging is minimal, and anti aliasing has become unnecessary... but of course a good chunk
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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                  I guess both sensors and software have improved to the point where "jagging" is minimal, and anti aliasing has become unnecessary...
                  but of course a good chunk of marketing blah blah will come with that

                  On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:09 AM, RsLittle <randyslittle@...> wrote:
                  They can get ride of the aa filter because of new and better de misaic algorithms.   The will still moire under many circumstances. 


                  >From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.



                  -------- Original message --------
                  From: Tina Manley <images@...>
                  Date: 03/04/2013 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
                  To: List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - Students <photoforum@...>
                  Subject: Re: comments on Anti Aliasing filterless design ?


                  I have both and disagree; however, the Leica MM - Monochrom - beats them both for detail. It's phenomenal.

                  Tina

                  On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:50 AM, John Gulliver <j.gulliver@...> wrote:
                  Some say the M8 still renders ultimately better detail than the M9 because of the lack of AA filter and despite being a smaller sensor.


                  On 4 March 2013 14:26, Trevor Cunningham <trevor@...> wrote:
                  I'm wondering this myself.

                  On 3/4/13 5:16 PM, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
                  Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
                  "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich, detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
                  If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
                  Roy





                  --
                  Tina Manley, ASMP
                  www.tinamanley.com

                • David Dyer-Bennet
                  ... Resolution increases are a lot of it. It s moving the frequency ranges that give moire away from common subjects somewhat. And some of it is an
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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                    On 2013-03-04 08:16, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
                    > Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
                    > "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich,
                    > detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
                    > If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti
                    > aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?

                    Resolution increases are a lot of it. It's moving the frequency ranges
                    that give moire away from common subjects somewhat. And some of it is
                    an increasingly sophisticated market.

                    --
                    David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...; http://dd-b.net/
                    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
                    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
                    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
                  • karl shah-jenner
                    ... What David said.. and partly referring to my gripe from a time back when I suggested the advertised resolution of a camera had little to do with
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 4, 2013
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                      David:

                      > On 2013-03-04 08:16, PhotoRoy6@... wrote:
                      >> Nikon put out the D800 E and Pentax put out the K-5 IIs. Pentax say
                      >> "Anti Aliasing filterless design achieves superior resolution for rich,
                      >> detailed imagery at supreme resolution"
                      >> If this is so good why do previous digital cameras come out _with_ anti
                      >> aliasing filter and why can one get away _without_ the filter now?
                      >
                      > Resolution increases are a lot of it. It's moving the frequency ranges
                      > that give moire away from common subjects somewhat. And some of it is an
                      > increasingly sophisticated market.


                      What David said..

                      and partly referring to my gripe from a time back when I suggested the
                      advertised 'resolution' of a camera had little to do with resolving power
                      limits and more to do with the image algorithms in-camera overcoming many of
                      ther inherent flaws of a linear sensor matrix.

                      Also as Randy says, moire can and will still be an issue - even with higher
                      res cameras because of the nyquist limit and the way an image is formed.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency (of course this article
                      presumes a linear sample and digi sensors are not, they have an x and a y
                      axis, so deviating from the x or y axis will mean the sample must be taken
                      at *greater* than 2x the sensor frequency to reproduce it accurately. In
                      this case 3x is preferable, ie, the theoretical limit of a 24 Mp camera is 8
                      Mp of true uninterpolated resolved data )

                      New higher resolutions means higher sampling rates. Couple this with the
                      much clever(er) algorithms than we had in the past that can actually spot
                      linear patterns, edge effects, other patterns and such and then compensate
                      for them and and the need for dumb AA filter is lessened considerably,
                      however they do not get everything and faults will still occur.

                      I must add that this did occur even with film but to a much lesser extent.
                      I had a photo shot on techpan enlarged to 12x16 which showed very high fine
                      detail receding and converging lines. I happened one day to make a colour
                      photo where this B&W print was in the background and the resulting image
                      showed a wild array of colours where the points converged as a consequence
                      of diffraction and polarization. It was not visible to the naked eye.. it
                      was purely the mechanics of the print, camera lens and film

                      k
                    • PhotoRoy6@...
                      The Nikon D800E has a 39 Mp sensor while the newer Pentax K-5 lls has a 16.6 Mp sensor. I suspect you have more Mp in the Nikon to hide the effect. It can t
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 6, 2013
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                        The Nikon D800E has a 39 Mp sensor while the newer Pentax K-5 lls has a 16.6 Mp sensor. I suspect you have more Mp in the Nikon to hide the effect. It can't be a cure all as Nikon also offers a with filter version, the Nikon D800. The Pentax filterless version has been on back order for some time. The Pentax version with the filter is available and in the kit version it comes with the lens I want. The lens by itself has also been on back order so as soon as I get back to NC I going to place my order.
                        Roy
                         
                        In a message dated 3/4/2013 11:48:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pablo.coronel.70@... writes:
                        I guess both sensors and software have improved to the point where "jagging" is minimal, and anti aliasing has become unnecessary...
                        but of course a good chunk of marketing blah blah will come with that
                         
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