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Open Letter - Rev. 2

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  • Shlomi Fish
    Check: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/philosophy/open-letter/ Regards, Shlomi Fish ... Shlomi Fish shlomif@vipe.technion.ac.il Home Page:
    Message 1 of 11 , May 23, 2002
      Check:

      http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/philosophy/open-letter/

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      He who re-invents the wheel, understands much better how a wheel works.
    • Chen Shapira
      Hi, Did you really send this at 4AM? oh dear :-) Anyway, I liked this version better. Style comment: you move between using very high and cultured language in
      Message 2 of 11 , May 23, 2002
        Hi,

        Did you really send this at 4AM? oh dear :-)

        Anyway, I liked this version better.

        Style comment: you move between using very high and cultured language in
        some parts (your opening paragraph), to lower language in others ("poor
        choice" doesn't sound as good in hebrew).
        You also use some Neo-Tech jargon, like "mystican" and "value-destructor",
        I'd probably explain the meaning of those, instead of using them as is.

        Value comments:
        1. I'm not sure if this is the right place, but some of your assertions
        really require proof. You claim that Sharon is responsible for Arafat's
        current status. I'd actually place the blame on Peres (he brought Arafat and
        his gang here and gave them a state, at a time when we were negotiating with
        local palastines and the PLO was going broke). In any case, this requires
        proof.

        2. I like the way you arranged the "Occupied Territories" part. Comparing
        point by point what the goverment is doing to what should be done. I believe
        that the Geneva convention should be mentioned somewhere. Its immoral to act
        against an aggreement you've signed.

        3. In the same part, in point 5, I believe you are under-rating the power of
        demagogy.

        4. You may want to suggest that the goverment should erect a border between
        us and the state of palastine, to stop the less enlightened individuals who
        may still object to our state and may try to continue terrorism. Such border
        can be slowly opened up, as our security situation improves and indeed
        disappear completely one day (as in Europe)

        5. I completely agree about point 6!

        6. I understand your scope limitations, but I believe that given the huge
        amount of space you devoted to our relations with the palestinians, you
        don't say enough about our economy. It looks like you find our internal
        affairs of less importance. I hope it isn't so.

        7. You probably shouldn't mention the Nazis in the "legalaize drugs
        section". The American example is strong enough by itself.
        You may want to consider the situation of subscribed drugs: Those drugs are
        legal, but you need a doctor permission to use them, because they may be
        dangerous to some. I think that the more dangerous drugs (those that may
        easily be overdoses, and kill the user) should have some similar controls.

        8. Note that the situation now is that gambling isn't only illegal. Its
        worse, there is a goverment monopoly on gambling, enforced by the police.
        The only legal gambling are those ran by the goverment, through "Mifal
        Ha-Pais". This is clearly hypocritical, and must go.

        9. About Income Tax, since this is a known and problematic area of much
        research, I think you should add more details and justifications, or at
        least point to supporting research.
        My suggestion would be to lower the income tax on money that arrives from
        work and trade, and more income tax on money from things like gambling, and
        high taxes on interest.
        Note that if you raise the income tax on interest, people will have less
        reason to leave money laying around in the bank, and may do something with
        it (buy things, build homes, build factories, etc.), which sounds good :-)

        10. I don't think we should let anyone immigrate. Selecting them by income,
        availble money, skills and relatives in Israel, will be better. Also we
        should probably leave known criminals in other countries.

        11. One sentence about capitalism?!? One sentence??? At least link to a
        definition, give some concrete examples, etc.
        Something like: Complete Laissez-Faire capitalism, including but not limited
        to: Stopping all wellfare (which encourages the incompetents), stopping all
        goverment regulations on businesses, land aquisitions and the airwaves. etc.
        etc.

        Thanks,
        Chen.


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
        > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 4:41 AM
        > To: Philosophy-IL
        > Subject: Open Letter - Rev. 2
        >
        >
        >
        > Check:
        >
        > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/philosophy/open-letter/
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Shlomi Fish
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        > Home E-mail: shlomif@...
        >
        > He who re-invents the wheel, understands much better how a
        > wheel works.
        >
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      • Shlomi Fish
        ... I did. _You_ did not respond to that. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philosophy-il/message/36 ... Laissez-Faire Capitalism never existed yet. Some
        Message 3 of 11 , May 27, 2002
          On Mon, 27 May 2002, Ofir Carny wrote:

          > You didn't respond to the content of my previous argument,

          I did. _You_ did not respond to that.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philosophy-il/message/36

          > but I will post another one without proof (but with a pointer to one):
          >
          > The Laissez-Faire point is plain wrong, it can only function under
          > very unlikely assumptions (that is not meant to say that a move in the
          > direction of Laissez-Faire capitalism wont be beneficial, it will be),
          > look up modern texts on the science of economics, especially everything
          > about non sophisticated markets and monopoles.
          >

          Laissez-Faire Capitalism never existed yet. Some Economists argue for it
          (Ludwig fon-Mises, and others). I don't see why I should believe your
          theoreticans about it.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          > Ofir
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          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
          Home E-mail: shlomif@...

          "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
          "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
        • Ofir Carny
          A single correction - lo yertzu laavod yoter harbeh isn t proper Hebrew. ... Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
          Message 4 of 11 , May 27, 2002
            A single correction - 'lo yertzu laavod yoter harbeh' isn't proper Hebrew.



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          • Ofir Carny
            You didn t respond to the content of my previous argument, but I will post another one without proof (but with a pointer to one): The Laissez-Faire point is
            Message 5 of 11 , May 27, 2002
              You didn't respond to the content of my previous argument, but I will post another one without proof (but with a pointer to one):

              The Laissez-Faire point is plain wrong, it can only function under very unlikely assumptions (that is not meant to say that a move in the direction of Laissez-Faire capitalism wont be beneficial, it will be), look up modern texts on the science of economics, especially everything about non sophisticated markets and monopoles.

              Ofir

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            • Ofir Carny
              Yes, sorry, I just found that mail, a mixup in my mailer and the way I use it. ... From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@techst02.technion.ac.il] Sent: Monday, May
              Message 6 of 11 , May 27, 2002
                Yes, sorry, I just found that mail, a mixup in my mailer and the way I use it.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:01 PM
                To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: Open Letter - Rev. 2


                On Mon, 27 May 2002, Ofir Carny wrote:

                > You didn't respond to the content of my previous argument,

                I did. _You_ did not respond to that.

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              • Ofir Carny
                You already said why in your letter - you value reason, you can claim to value reason and then ignore all theoretic evidence, if you do, you lose the
                Message 7 of 11 , May 27, 2002
                  You already said why in your letter - you value reason, you can claim to value reason and then ignore all
                  theoretic evidence, if you do, you lose the reasonable basis of your claims and left only with your opinions -
                  nothing more.

                  Ofir

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                  Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:01 PM
                  To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: Open Letter - Rev. 2

                  I don't see why I should believe your theoreticans about it.

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                • Shlomi Fish
                  Hi! Please configure your mailer to cut lines properly. ... I beg your pardon, but I think theoretical ecidence is a contradiction. I don t have anything
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 22, 2002
                    Hi!

                    Please configure your mailer to cut lines properly.

                    On Mon, 27 May 2002, Ofir Carny wrote:

                    > You already said why in your letter - you value reason, you can claim
                    > to value reason and then ignore all theoretic evidence,

                    I beg your pardon, but I think theoretical ecidence is a contradiction. I
                    don't have anything against theories and theoreticans, but the only test
                    for a theory is real-life.

                    There are various economical theories out there, and some of them justify
                    Laissez-Faire Capitalism. They all sound good on the surface, but may make
                    a lot of hidden false assumptions, non-sequitors, improper modellings,
                    etc.

                    Which one is right can only be proven by trying each out on a real-life
                    economy and seeing which one lives to its promises.

                    > if you do, you lose the reasonable basis of your claims and left only
                    with your opinions -
                    > nothing more.
                    >

                    Like I said, some economists formulated pro-LFC theories, and you can read
                    them if you like. 600 years ago, people believed the Sun and the
                    other planets revolved around the Sun, and pointed to the writings of
                    Aristotle and Ptolmey as "theoretical evidence". You cannot rule out that
                    there might be a similar situation with Economical Science now.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    > Ofir
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:01 PM
                    > To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: Open Letter - Rev. 2
                    >
                    > I don't see why I should believe your theoreticans about it.
                    >
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                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                    Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                    He who re-invents the wheel, understands much better how a wheel works.
                  • Chen Shapira
                    ... Partially true. I d rather not have humans as guinea pigs if it can be avoided. The bugs in totalitarian communism were apparent to everyone but the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 23, 2002
                      > Which one is right can only be proven by trying each out on a
                      > real-life
                      > economy and seeing which one lives to its promises.

                      Partially true. I'd rather not have humans as guinea pigs if it can be
                      avoided.
                      The "bugs" in totalitarian communism were apparent to everyone but the
                      Bolshevics, before they began their 70 years experiment. This experiment
                      should have never been carried out. Russia paid a terribly high price for
                      their experiment, and I wouldn't want to see anything similar happens here.

                      I guess the correct way is to filter the theories using theoretical tools,
                      before taking them to the field.

                      Thanks,
                      Chen.
                    • Shlomi Fish
                      ... One question is what can you lose from implementing it. Laissez-Faire Capitalism specifically prohibits killing innocent people and gives the government
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 23, 2002
                        On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Chen Shapira wrote:

                        >
                        > > Which one is right can only be proven by trying each out on a
                        > > real-life
                        > > economy and seeing which one lives to its promises.
                        >
                        > Partially true. I'd rather not have humans as guinea pigs if it can be
                        > avoided.
                        > The "bugs" in totalitarian communism were apparent to everyone but the
                        > Bolshevics, before they began their 70 years experiment. This experiment
                        > should have never been carried out. Russia paid a terribly high price for
                        > their experiment, and I wouldn't want to see anything similar happens here.
                        >
                        > I guess the correct way is to filter the theories using theoretical tools,
                        > before taking them to the field.
                        >

                        One question is what can you lose from implementing it. Laissez-Faire
                        Capitalism specifically prohibits killing innocent people and gives the
                        government very little power to harrase the individuals. The worst case
                        scenario if it takes effect, is that some individuals, organizations or
                        companies will lose money, market share, or replace ownership. I also
                        don't rule out the possibility of a gradual conversion to LFC, however
                        such that allows continued gains.

                        Another question is how much are our theoretical tools able. There are
                        many ways to abuse or fool reason, and Economics and Politics are a place
                        where it is very easy to do so. I'm not suggesting to use Humans as guinea
                        pigs, but the fact is that they have been used this way by the current
                        political powers, with only a moderate success in achieving propsperity
                        for all benevlonet people. (and none at achieving biological immortality).

                        An idea I'm toying with is voluntarily enacting a de-facto LFC. E.g: by
                        starting a private school network, a chain of private hospitals, make money
                        by giving Objectivistic lectures or presentations, etc. That way we
                        can gradually convert to a de-facto Laissez-Faire regardless of what the
                        government thinks or see fit.

                        Regards,

                        Shlomi Fish

                        > Thanks,
                        > Chen.
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >



                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                        "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                        "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                      • Ofir Carny
                        Wow. almost one month delay... I already forgot sending that message... Regards. ... From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@vipe.technion.ac.il] Sent: Sunday, June
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 26, 2002
                          Wow. almost one month delay...

                          I already forgot sending that message...

                          Regards.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 5:51 AM
                          To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: Open Letter - Rev. 2


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                          > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:01 PM
                          > To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: Open Letter - Rev. 2
                          >


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