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RE: The Legality of Discrimination

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  • Shlomi Fish
    ... I believe it won t happen. It s like saying a free, enlightened man will willingly discriminate against black, gays, Jews, or whatever. He would not
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 14 11:32 PM
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      On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:

      >
      > > > Do you think Israel will benefit from having large Arab ghettos that
      > > > they can't leave?
      > >
      > > I find it hard to believe that all non-Arabs will reguse to
      > > sell or rent
      > > homes to Arabs in Israel. At least I and many enlightended
      > > people I know
      > > won't. So I don't think that a ghettos situation will become
      > > a reality.
      >
      >
      > I agree that if there is no discrimination, there is no need
      > for laws against it.
      > But in case it will happen, don't you think that the right thing to do
      > is to stop this?
      >

      I believe it won't happen. It's like saying a free, enlightened
      man will willingly discriminate against black, gays, Jews, or whatever. He
      would not because a free man does not destroy himself.

      >
      >
      > > Back to the diner. I think that even then, many diners accepted Black.
      >
      > Depends where. Not in the bible-belt, certainly.
      >

      Perhaps not. I'm not entirely familiar with Historical anecdotes.

      > > What Black people (or White ones) could have done
      > > invididually is protest
      > > outside the diner, claiming it should not discriminate
      > > against them. Such
      > > voluntary actions are usually much more effective than legal ones.
      >
      > Prove your statement please.
      > Laws against such discrimination were highly effective.
      >

      Perhaps they were. Again, many white people simply hate black people in
      the Bible belt. I remember a record by a white Jew that became black by
      taking chemical substances. He went to the Bible belt and could survive
      less than a day. His description of the treatment of the white folk was
      startling. I read it in an article in an Israeli newspaper. It happened
      not a long time ago and he was interviewed on Oprah.

      While the laws may have eliminated some discrimination, they did not
      perfectly eliminated racism which is its core.

      Note that a law against discrimination that was passed in California,
      actually caused fewer students of not-as-well minorities to be accepted
      into Universities. The law simply said that you should not take into
      account a student's background and only his grades or whatever. And
      naturally, some minorities have on average better grades than some.

      > > The O.J. Simpson trial changed that a lot. While Simpson won the
      > > criminal trial (but lost the civil one), he has remained
      > > outcasted, and
      > > became friend-less. Moreoever, in other trials of murderers,
      > > people were
      > > less reluctant to take into account such excuses as black vs.
      > > white, or
      > > whatever.
      >
      > I have no idea where you found those "facts".
      > I would love to see refernces to the friend-less Mr. Simpson.
      >

      I overheard them from my mom. I know Simpson actually socialized with
      white people most of the time. (his wife was white as well). While he was
      a hero in America, many Blacks considered him as a traitor of his culture.
      Maybe now he has some new friends which are Black.

      > > I think the best way a country can make it a better place for
      > > its citizens
      > > is by staying out of their way, and letting them make it a
      > > better place.
      >
      > And if they don't do that?
      >

      They would, because people who are free of opression always create good
      values. Look at how the computer and software industry flourished out of
      software being considered speech. Look at the open source world. Look at
      countries which are free, safe and careless and how happy people are
      there.

      (I want to ask people on Usenet to give me test-cases of country that had
      an almost Laissez-Faire Capitalism, and see how well they did. Game
      Theoretical models can only go so far in "proving" it won't work. It is
      very easy to form a model that will yield the expectations you give it,
      because a real country is too complex to be described mathematically in a
      model. We need some hard evidence.)

      > > The Israeli Canon at the moment has a lot of Acts. Some of
      > > them are good
      > > and valid. But the majority of them are harmless at best, if not very
      > > harmful. This is all out of attempts to make the country a
      > > better place.
      >
      > You are saying that since the effort failed, we shouldn't even
      > make the attempt?
      >

      I'm saying that the effort was bound to fail. A law canon should only
      protect against initiatory force, coercion or fraud. Nothing more is
      needed or ever necessary. And BTW, I fully support the right to bear Arms
      and form private militias or police. I think they can be very effective in
      protecting freedom as well. (probably more than Government ones)

      > > In a Laissez-Faire Capitalism, the dynamics of market will cause most
      > > problems to disappear, and everyone will propsper.
      >
      > You are just guessing here. You may be wrong.
      >

      Granted. But I gave some evidence and intend to find more.

      > > There may
      > > still be a
      > > small amount of immoral behaviour, but it will be of non concern to
      > > society at large.
      >
      > What amount? And why will it be of no concern?
      >

      An amount like people drinking or smoking, or being religious or believing
      in superstitions or whatever. If a thousand years from now, there will be
      religious Jews who believe in God, but don't do anything to enforce their
      belief upon others (or Christian, or whatever), then it won't dent my
      happiness. I am not concerned with eliminating immorality. I am concerned
      with eliminating illegal activity like initiatory force, coercion or
      fraud. Things everyone agrees are wrong. While what is moral is never
      agreed upon, and entire cultures and civilizations were ruined out of
      trying to enforce Morality. (if you need historical examples, I can give
      you enough)

      > > > You seem to think that people should have a basic right to
      > > be bigots and
      > > > discriminate.
      > >
      > > I do, yes.
      >
      > Well, we have a disagreement on basic rights here.
      > I don't think this discussion will get anywhere.
      >

      Maybe, but it will be an interesting discussion.

      >
      > > That's not a right. It's a privilege.
      >
      > Only because *you* say so?
      > I say it is a basic right and should be protected by law.
      >

      My definition of right is a freedom to _exercise_ a certain quality or to
      preserve it. It is not something that society must provide you (that is a
      privilege). Now a "right for education" can be interpreted as:

      1. The right to always be able to receive education should someone be
      willing to give it to you.
      2. The necessity that the country give you education.

      No. 1 is a right. No. 2 is a very dangerous contortion of the word
      "right". I strongly recommend everyone to avoid using right in this sense.
      (it's actually a privilege)

      > > Like I said to Nadav, I
      > > felt that I was discriminated against recently, only it was a personal
      > > discrimination. It's not the first time it has happened to me, and I
      > > believe it has happened to anybody here several times so far.
      > > It's part of
      > > life.
      >
      > What do you mean by "personal" discrimination?
      > Someone refused to hire you because your name is "Shlomi Fish"?
      >

      Not because I was named "Shlomi Fish" but because he disliked me, and
      thought I was up to no good, while in fact I was only inactive and did
      something else entirely in a different way. (I do not wish to explain
      further).

      > Discrimination against a group is a problem because it is against
      > a group. I am not discussing anything personal here.
      >

      I think discrimination against a person you don't like or has some stigma
      on, is equally as destructive for the individum as discrimination against
      a group. I do not discriminate against any group, and I do my best to be
      fair and friendly to anyone I know. (sometimes without success).

      But I know some control freaks or people who treat me and others like
      inferior people. We sometimes label people as "idiots", "jerks",
      "racists", "machos", etc. But in most cases this label cannot accurately
      describe the complex individual behind them. It's not morally wrong to
      think this way, but you should avoid acting upon it.

      >
      > > Theft, rape and murder are objective crimes. Discrimination
      > > is not.
      >
      > Discrimination is objective. Just harder to prove.
      > Suppose you have 100% accurate truth machine or a mind-reader.
      > You could ask people "Did you reject him because he is black?"
      > and get a true answer.
      > This would make discrimination an objective crime, right?
      > And just because it is difficult to prove racism, you think it
      > should be legal?
      >

      I claim that even then, you cannot jail the person and say: "Hey you
      discriminated against him because he was Black. You're a criminal". I have
      the right to believe I hate Jews, Blacks, Gays, or whatever. My former
      driving teacher told me he hate the British and the French. I asked him
      why and he beated around the bush. Then I asked him if he knew any British
      or French people and he said he did not. (BTW, he tutored my friend who is
      an English-Israeli Jew). Then he agreed he should know some before he
      makes such grounding conclusions.

      I have met some British and French people and they are really nice, and I
      quite admire France and Britain for their technological,
      philosophical and cultural achievements. (albeit not completely approve of
      anything their rulers did)

      > >
      > > You have to discriminate sometimes, and people should be able to
      > > discriminate, even if it involves some kind of racism or prejudice.
      >
      > You should seperate relevant and irrelavant discrimination here.
      > If you are looking for a programmer, you can discriminate against
      > people who can't program. You shouldn't discriminate against blacks.
      >
      > You have to discriminate on relevant points, but it should be illegal
      > to discriminate on irelevant points.
      >
      > Since we have a wide disagreements on the basic rights in the issue,
      > I think we can safely drop the discussion.
      >

      I believe Mercury has discriminated against me by letting me take a
      psycho-technic test with the rest of the crowd instead of taking into
      account the fact that I have a lot of proven experience, have almost
      finished my degree in the Technion, and have a lot of unproven experience
      working with UNIX, Perl, and other stuff. (I also know you, OmerM and
      Gabor, who are Mercury engineers who can testify for my proficiency).

      Now, did Mercury find a more suitable candidate than me? If the only thing
      that set us apart was the Psycho-technic tests, than maybe. But if we take
      my general expertise? I'm not entirely sure.

      IBM also rejected me because my grades were not high enough, despite the
      fact that I am considered a very good programmer, much better than most of
      the Technion students who do nothing but study all day. Muli, OTOH, got a
      job at IBM because he had the right connections. (his grades were not
      much better than mine, and he eventually left the Technion)

      Muli is an excellent engineer. But I think I'm not a "Qotel-qinim" either.
      If we define the suitability of the engineer as the one who'll get the job
      done best, then I was discriminated against twice in the past year.

      Some people will become better programmers in a year, than many will in
      ten years. (and it seems bad programmers can stay like that for years
      without learning anything). A workplace must discriminate against
      potential workers somehow, because he can't tell in advance how good a
      worker he will be until he hires him. And if he does, he may waste a lot
      of time training him, and get little if any output from him if he does.

      When I was discriminated it felt bad. It felt like I was worthless, and I
      felt no one cared how good I really was. In my position I am not
      discriminated against out of belonging to any minority. But when I do on a
      personal level, it feels just as bad.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish

      > Thanks,
      > Chen.
      >
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      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

      An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
      doctors away.

      Falk Fish
    • Nadav Har'El
      ... Shlomi, this is bull. Again, you can take the south in the US from the 1920s to 1950s. In this period, every white man and woman was free ( enlightened is
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 15 1:47 AM
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        On Tue, Apr 15, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "RE: The Legality of Discrimination":
        > > I agree that if there is no discrimination, there is no need
        > > for laws against it.
        > > But in case it will happen, don't you think that the right thing to do
        > > is to stop this?
        > >
        >
        > I believe it won't happen. It's like saying a free, enlightened
        > man will willingly discriminate against black, gays, Jews, or whatever. He
        > would not because a free man does not destroy himself.

        Shlomi, this is bull.

        Again, you can take the south in the US from the 1920s to 1950s. In this
        period, every white man and woman was free ("enlightened" is a different
        discussion :)) and they were quite happy to descriminate blacks - in fact
        they believed that to keep their freedom and lifestyle they *must* continue
        with the segregation and discrimination.

        Another obvious example is (at the risk of invoking Godwin's law, and killing
        this thread) the third Reich. Post-WWI Germany was a democracy, and people
        were free and enlightened (some of the most respected philosophers,
        scientists, etc., came from Germany). It didn't stop them from electing Hitler
        (maybe this wasn't a completely fair elections, but a large part of the
        population did believe in his ideas), from passing the Nurenberg laws, and
        finally massacring 6 million Jews and millions of other people - all in the
        name of their "freedom" to be a pure Arian nation, with enough "living space"
        to remain free.

        No, there is very little evidence that humans are basically good, and will
        only do good if left to their own devices. Read Golding's "Lord of the Flies"
        for a fictional depiction of what happens if humans are left without law.
        Or see what is happening in Iraq right now - Iraqi people are destroying their
        own country...

        In 2000, when I was in the "millenium" mood, I tried to calculate how many
        people were killed in the last millenium by human-inflicted disasters (such
        as wars, religious persecutions, etc.). The number I came up with: 500,000,000!
        That's half a billion people murdered by their fellow men in 1,000 years.

        > > Depends where. Not in the bible-belt, certainly.
        > >
        >
        > Perhaps not. I'm not entirely familiar with Historical anecdotes.

        Those who don't listen to history, are doomed to repeat it :)

        Experiments with forms of government is one place where "reinventing the
        wheel" is not only bad, it can actually cost the lives or at least the
        happiness of millions.

        > While the laws may have eliminated some discrimination, they did not
        > perfectly eliminated racism which is its core.

        So what? The situtation is still better than it was in the late 50s.
        Nobody said the anti-segregation laws resulted in a perfect society, any
        more than the laws against stealing and murdering resulted in a society
        free of those phenomena. But there are much fewer cases of these things
        and law-abiding people, at least, try to avoid them.

        Do you remember any recent case of a Klan lynching in the south? I certainly
        don't. These were almost weekly events in the early 60s, and large mobs
        participated in them - it was almost an accepted pastime. Believe me, a
        poor black hung on a tree would rather be "hated" than hung. He'd rather
        be "hated" than having his child refused entry to a good school that fits
        that child's scholastic ability, but not his skin color.

        > They would, because people who are free of opression always create good
        > values. Look at how the computer and software industry flourished out of
        > software being considered speech. Look at the open source world. Look at
        > countries which are free, safe and careless and how happy people are
        > there.

        These countries are free, but still have laws. Iraq, "the wild west", and
        Golding's island are examples of places that were free and lawless - I
        don't see any "careless and happy" people there.

        Obviously the laws in a democratic country (I don't like to use the term
        "free country" because it has other meanings) would need to be, "of the
        people, for the people, by the people", i.e., laws that the people themselves
        created for the purpose of regulating their own lives in a way that increases
        their own chances for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Laws
        passed for other reasons, like the glorification of God or Country, or for
        the personal benefit of certain individuals, are bound to be counterproductive
        and therefor wrong in this sense.

        > (I want to ask people on Usenet to give me test-cases of country that had
        > an almost Laissez-Faire Capitalism, and see how well they did. Game
        > Theoretical models can only go so far in "proving" it won't work. It is
        > very easy to form a model that will yield the expectations you give it,
        > because a real country is too complex to be described mathematically in a
        > model. We need some hard evidence.)

        Right.

        > I'm saying that the effort was bound to fail. A law canon should only
        > protect against initiatory force, coercion or fraud. Nothing more is
        > needed or ever necessary. And BTW, I fully support the right to bear Arms
        > and form private militias or police. I think they can be very effective in
        > protecting freedom as well. (probably more than Government ones)

        But only in protecting the freedom of the well-endowed; The poor will not
        have such private militias to protect them from the coercion by the rich.
        Also, if a certain militia goes "corrupt" (say, robbing people instead of
        protecting them, like Robin Hood's militia ;)), you'll need a different
        militia to fight them, and some court system to decide which one is "right",
        before the whole state goes into an anrachy of local wars. This is getting
        quite close to my thesis of why a free state cannot be stable - one day
        when I feel like it, I'll put what I wrote about that online :)

        > An amount like people drinking or smoking, or being religious or believing
        > in superstitions or whatever. If a thousand years from now, there will be

        Shlomi, please understand, once and for all, that everyone else who posted
        in this thread was talking about "morals" in the sense of "ethics", the
        treatment of others, not about some sort of "Christian morality", the acts
        that are "undignified" or "revolting" or "God won't like". Smoking (in your
        own room, not in the face of another person) or believing in superstitions
        is not immoral in the sense of being unethical.

        Your insistance of using non-standard meanings for the words "morals" and
        "legal" are making arguing with you on this issue quite frustrating :(

        > fraud. Things everyone agrees are wrong. While what is moral is never
        > agreed upon, and entire cultures and civilizations were ruined out of
        > trying to enforce Morality. (if you need historical examples, I can give
        > you enough)

        Try us.
        And please don't give me examples like the spanish inquisition. That might
        have something to do with "morality" but not with "morals" (ethics), which
        is the issue we were interested in.

        > I think discrimination against a person you don't like or has some stigma
        > on, is equally as destructive for the individum as discrimination against
        > a group. I do not discriminate against any group, and I do my best to be
        > fair and friendly to anyone I know. (sometimes without success).

        There's a moral difference between the two kinds of discriminations: if
        people discriminate you because of your own behavior (say, because you
        like to make up your own definition for the word "legal" :)), you are free
        to modify your behavior somewhat, in order to be better liked.

        If you are discriminated because of a certain group you were born into -
        say you were born with black skin, with two X chromosomes or your foreskin
        was removed when you were 8 days old - you have no way to change that.
        You are basically being punished for something you didn't do and have no
        way of changing. *that* is considered immoral.
        For the same reason, most countries have special laws dealing with criminal
        behavior of juveniles or people with mental illnesses - it is sometimes
        thought that these people have no way to modify their behavior (or have lower
        control over it), and so shouldn't be punished as severely as someone who
        *chose* the criminal behavior out of their own free will.

        > I believe Mercury has discriminated against me by letting me take a
        > psycho-technic test with the rest of the crowd instead of taking into
        > account the fact that I have a lot of proven experience, have almost
        > finished my degree in the Technion, and have a lot of unproven experience
        > working with UNIX, Perl, and other stuff. (I also know you, OmerM and
        > Gabor, who are Mercury engineers who can testify for my proficiency).

        Your complaint here might actually be right.
        Stephen Gould (the renowned zoologist) wrote a good book "The Mismeasure
        of Man" (available in Hebrew translation, 30 shekels in Zomet Sfarim) about
        the issue of how "scientific" measures of intelegence over the last century
        or have been plagued by racism, sexism, xenophobia, and what not.
        After reading that book, it's hard to treat those psyotechnic tests with
        any sort of respect; I hope that more HR people read that book...

        > IBM also rejected me because my grades were not high enough, despite the
        > fact that I am considered a very good programmer, much better than most of
        > the Technion students who do nothing but study all day. Muli, OTOH, got a
        > job at IBM because he had the right connections. (his grades were not
        > much better than mine, and he eventually left the Technion)

        This is getting a little too personal for my taste, and remember that Muli
        is not on this list to defend himself.
        IBM research is *not* a programming house. They are not looking for "good
        programmers" - good programming is required, but is not enough. Are you sure
        that having bad grades is not your fault? Grades in relevant CS subjects (not
        psychometric tests where you are asked to choose geometric shapes and
        complete number series) are quite relevent to your work in a place where
        CS research is being done!

        [by the way, starting next month, I'll also be working for IBM research....]

        > Muli is an excellent engineer. But I think I'm not a "Qotel-qinim" either.
        > If we define the suitability of the engineer as the one who'll get the job
        > done best, then I was discriminated against twice in the past year.

        Do you consider yourself better than Muli? Would you at least agree to say
        that you are "as good as Muli"? If that is so, given two candidates who
        are just as good, didn't they act sensibly in choosing the one with the
        better grades?
        Wouldn't you also agree that Muli's experience in the Linux Kernel might be
        a little more relevant to certain companies than your experience in Freecell
        Solver (which is an interesting program, but not of immediate interest to
        any company I know).

        > When I was discriminated it felt bad. It felt like I was worthless, and I
        > felt no one cared how good I really was. In my position I am not
        > discriminated against out of belonging to any minority. But when I do on a
        > personal level, it feels just as bad.

        But when it's done on a personal level you are free to learn from your
        mistakes and mend your ways, in order to succeed better next time. If
        you were discrimated because of the color of your skin or your accent,
        there was nothing you could have done about it.


        --
        Nadav Har'El | Tuesday, Apr 15 2003, 13 Nisan 5763
        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
        Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |"Luck is when preparation meets
        http://nadav.harel.org.il |opportunity." - Richard Sherman
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... I don t know too much about the south in the US from the 20 s to the 50 s, or how free or enlightened the people were. ... Free? Germany was enslaved to
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 16 2:02 AM
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          On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

          > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "RE: The Legality of Discrimination":
          > > > I agree that if there is no discrimination, there is no need
          > > > for laws against it.
          > > > But in case it will happen, don't you think that the right thing to do
          > > > is to stop this?
          > > >
          > >
          > > I believe it won't happen. It's like saying a free, enlightened
          > > man will willingly discriminate against black, gays, Jews, or whatever. He
          > > would not because a free man does not destroy himself.
          >
          > Shlomi, this is bull.
          >
          > Again, you can take the south in the US from the 1920s to 1950s. In this
          > period, every white man and woman was free ("enlightened" is a different
          > discussion :)) and they were quite happy to descriminate blacks - in fact
          > they believed that to keep their freedom and lifestyle they *must* continue
          > with the segregation and discrimination.
          >

          I don't know too much about the south in the US from the 20's to the 50's,
          or how free or enlightened the people were.

          > Another obvious example is (at the risk of invoking Godwin's law, and killing
          > this thread) the third Reich. Post-WWI Germany was a democracy, and people
          > were free and enlightened (some of the most respected philosophers,
          > scientists, etc., came from Germany).

          Free? Germany was enslaved to France and had to pay an enormous tax to
          compensate it for the war. Consult every post-WWI history book to learn
          that.

          > No, there is very little evidence that humans are basically good, and will
          > only do good if left to their own devices.

          Humans are good by nature. Otherwise you could not expect humans to have
          survived for at least 3000 years since they gained consciousness. And
          notice that Laissez-Faire Capitalism does not mean an Anarchy - it means a
          society where only initiatory force, coercion or fraud is prevented.
          Objective crimes that can easily be proven.

          > Read Golding's "Lord of the Flies"
          > for a fictional depiction of what happens if humans are left without law.

          I heard of the "Lord of the Flies" but did not read it yet. Nevertheless,
          I find it hard to believe it is more than a depiction of Golding's world
          view. I find it hard to call it "the truth". I believe many societies
          existed in distant Islands and lived quite happily there, even for several
          generations. And like I said, LFC does not mean a lawless society.

          > Or see what is happening in Iraq right now - Iraqi people are destroying their
          > own country...
          >

          I have a hard time calling the Iraqi people as being free beforehand, or
          even free now.

          > In 2000, when I was in the "millenium" mood, I tried to calculate how many
          > people were killed in the last millenium by human-inflicted disasters (such
          > as wars, religious persecutions, etc.). The number I came up with: 500,000,000!
          > That's half a billion people murdered by their fellow men in 1,000 years.
          >

          I know. It usually came up with governments and other authorities who
          tried to enforce "morality" down people's throat. Not out of the actions
          of individuals.

          > > > Depends where. Not in the bible-belt, certainly.
          > > >
          > >
          > > Perhaps not. I'm not entirely familiar with Historical anecdotes.
          >
          > Those who don't listen to history, are doomed to repeat it :)
          >

          History repeats itself, but not exactly. There's a limit to how much room
          I can fill my mind with useless details. Otherwise, it becomes too crowded
          and I can't recall the more important things.

          I think applied logic is more important than knowing every historical
          detail. With applied logic one can analyse current affairs, using reason
          and idealism alone.

          > Experiments with forms of government is one place where "reinventing the
          > wheel" is not only bad, it can actually cost the lives or at least the
          > happiness of millions.
          >

          At the moment, there were many experiments with forms of governments. I
          support a gradual (not immediate) transition to LFC. The status quo now
          leaves a lot to be desired: anything from crime, to harrasment of
          individuals, to dishonest entities, to over-concentration of resources,
          are quite common.

          > > While the laws may have eliminated some discrimination, they did not
          > > perfectly eliminated racism which is its core.
          >
          > So what? The situtation is still better than it was in the late 50s.
          > Nobody said the anti-segregation laws resulted in a perfect society, any
          > more than the laws against stealing and murdering resulted in a society
          > free of those phenomena. But there are much fewer cases of these things
          > and law-abiding people, at least, try to avoid them.
          >
          > Do you remember any recent case of a Klan lynching in the south? I certainly
          > don't. These were almost weekly events in the early 60s, and large mobs
          > participated in them - it was almost an accepted pastime. Believe me, a
          > poor black hung on a tree would rather be "hated" than hung. He'd rather
          > be "hated" than having his child refused entry to a good school that fits
          > that child's scholastic ability, but not his skin color.
          >

          Granted the laws helped a bit. However, I believe that:

          1. Public Education.
          2. Organization and self-arming by Blacks and white people who supported
          them. Self-protection
          3. Enforcement of Laws that prevented public discrimination

          would have worked better in the long run and still can.

          > > They would, because people who are free of opression always create good
          > > values. Look at how the computer and software industry flourished out of
          > > software being considered speech. Look at the open source world. Look at
          > > countries which are free, safe and careless and how happy people are
          > > there.
          >
          > These countries are free, but still have laws. Iraq, "the wild west", and
          > Golding's island are examples of places that were free and lawless - I
          > don't see any "careless and happy" people there.
          >

          I don't support lack of laws and disorder! How many time do I have to say
          that initiatory force, coercion or fraud are unconstitutional?

          > Obviously the laws in a democratic country (I don't like to use the term
          > "free country" because it has other meanings) would need to be, "of the
          > people, for the people, by the people", i.e., laws that the people themselves
          > created for the purpose of regulating their own lives in a way that increases
          > their own chances for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Laws
          > passed for other reasons, like the glorification of God or Country, or for
          > the personal benefit of certain individuals, are bound to be counterproductive
          > and therefor wrong in this sense.
          >

          I prefer the term "free country" over "democratic country" because a
          democracy is a tyranny of the majority or a selected elite, and a "free
          country" means a liberal, Capitalistic country to me. I don't think a free
          country is an assertion - it is very much a process.

          It's like free software is sometimes preferable to open-source, but even
          more so.

          > > I'm saying that the effort was bound to fail. A law canon should only
          > > protect against initiatory force, coercion or fraud. Nothing more is
          > > needed or ever necessary. And BTW, I fully support the right to bear Arms
          > > and form private militias or police. I think they can be very effective in
          > > protecting freedom as well. (probably more than Government ones)
          >
          > But only in protecting the freedom of the well-endowed; The poor will not
          > have such private militias to protect them from the coercion by the rich.
          > Also, if a certain militia goes "corrupt" (say, robbing people instead of
          > protecting them, like Robin Hood's militia ;)), you'll need a different
          > militia to fight them, and some court system to decide which one is "right",
          > before the whole state goes into an anrachy of local wars. This is getting
          > quite close to my thesis of why a free state cannot be stable - one day
          > when I feel like it, I'll put what I wrote about that online :)
          >

          Let's suppose you have N militias where N > 5. If one militia goes corrupt
          (all of its members? Very unlikely), then the other N-1 militias can fight
          it. Like I said I don't believe in a free man destroying himself and
          becoming corrupt suddenly. A good man with a good philosophy and a lot of
          ideology will never go corrupt. You seem to have quite a lot of distrust
          of people? Why?

          > > An amount like people drinking or smoking, or being religious or believing
          > > in superstitions or whatever. If a thousand years from now, there will be
          >
          > Shlomi, please understand, once and for all, that everyone else who posted
          > in this thread was talking about "morals" in the sense of "ethics", the
          > treatment of others, not about some sort of "Christian morality", the acts
          > that are "undignified" or "revolting" or "God won't like". Smoking (in your
          > own room, not in the face of another person) or believing in superstitions
          > is not immoral in the sense of being unethical.
          >
          > Your insistance of using non-standard meanings for the words "morals" and
          > "legal" are making arguing with you on this issue quite frustrating :(
          >

          Whatever. Let's say that smoking, discrimination, consuming alcohol or
          whatever are "harmful" actions and sometimes the law decides to prevent
          them. I think the law should prevent people from directly harming each
          other and not from harming themselves.

          In discrimination no initiatory force, coercion or fraud was involved. If
          I did not get a job because I'm Jewish, I and my property were not harmed.
          I do not sanction people killing me because I'm a Jew. That is balantly
          unconstitutional.

          > > fraud. Things everyone agrees are wrong. While what is moral is never
          > > agreed upon, and entire cultures and civilizations were ruined out of
          > > trying to enforce Morality. (if you need historical examples, I can give
          > > you enough)
          >
          > Try us.
          > And please don't give me examples like the spanish inquisition. That might
          > have something to do with "morality" but not with "morals" (ethics), which
          > is the issue we were interested in.
          >

          The Roman Empire : Early christianity believing pleasure was immoral and
          trying to prevent it.

          France: King Louis XIV believing the Protestants were immoral and he
          banned them and made France much weaker.

          The USA Today: The government tells everybody that drug abusers are
          criminals (while not harming anybody) and jails 1 million Americans on
          drugs offences, and terrorizes everybody and destroys liberalism.

          > > I think discrimination against a person you don't like or has some stigma
          > > on, is equally as destructive for the individum as discrimination against
          > > a group. I do not discriminate against any group, and I do my best to be
          > > fair and friendly to anyone I know. (sometimes without success).
          >
          > There's a moral difference between the two kinds of discriminations: if
          > people discriminate you because of your own behavior (say, because you
          > like to make up your own definition for the word "legal" :)), you are free
          > to modify your behavior somewhat, in order to be better liked.
          >
          > If you are discriminated because of a certain group you were born into -
          > say you were born with black skin, with two X chromosomes or your foreskin
          > was removed when you were 8 days old - you have no way to change that.
          > You are basically being punished for something you didn't do and have no
          > way of changing. *that* is considered immoral.
          > For the same reason, most countries have special laws dealing with criminal
          > behavior of juveniles or people with mental illnesses - it is sometimes
          > thought that these people have no way to modify their behavior (or have lower
          > control over it), and so shouldn't be punished as severely as someone who
          > *chose* the criminal behavior out of their own free will.
          >

          Sometimes I am discriminated not because of my behaviour, but because of
          something else entirely.

          > > I believe Mercury has discriminated against me by letting me take a
          > > psycho-technic test with the rest of the crowd instead of taking into
          > > account the fact that I have a lot of proven experience, have almost
          > > finished my degree in the Technion, and have a lot of unproven experience
          > > working with UNIX, Perl, and other stuff. (I also know you, OmerM and
          > > Gabor, who are Mercury engineers who can testify for my proficiency).
          >
          > Your complaint here might actually be right.
          > Stephen Gould (the renowned zoologist) wrote a good book "The Mismeasure
          > of Man" (available in Hebrew translation, 30 shekels in Zomet Sfarim) about
          > the issue of how "scientific" measures of intelegence over the last century
          > or have been plagued by racism, sexism, xenophobia, and what not.
          > After reading that book, it's hard to treat those psyotechnic tests with
          > any sort of respect; I hope that more HR people read that book...
          >

          I heard about it. My problem is that Mercury trusted a psycho-technic test
          instead of a face-to-face interview and inspection of my C.V. and
          experience. Naturally, I know a Psychologist who prepares people for these
          exams.

          > > IBM also rejected me because my grades were not high enough, despite the
          > > fact that I am considered a very good programmer, much better than most of
          > > the Technion students who do nothing but study all day. Muli, OTOH, got a
          > > job at IBM because he had the right connections. (his grades were not
          > > much better than mine, and he eventually left the Technion)
          >
          > This is getting a little too personal for my taste, and remember that Muli
          > is not on this list to defend himself.
          > IBM research is *not* a programming house. They are not looking for "good
          > programmers" - good programming is required, but is not enough. Are you sure
          > that having bad grades is not your fault? Grades in relevant CS subjects (not
          > psychometric tests where you are asked to choose geometric shapes and
          > complete number series) are quite relevent to your work in a place where
          > CS research is being done!
          >

          I had good grades in my CS subjects. But my overall grade was lower. Was
          it my fault that I choose the less intuitive for me EE instead of the more
          intuitive and easier CS studies? Was it my fault that I invested time
          studying things and experimenting with things outside the corriculum
          instead of 100% of my time studying?

          > [by the way, starting next month, I'll also be working for IBM research....]
          >

          Good for you. Enjoy!

          > > Muli is an excellent engineer. But I think I'm not a "Qotel-qinim" either.
          > > If we define the suitability of the engineer as the one who'll get the job
          > > done best, then I was discriminated against twice in the past year.
          >
          > Do you consider yourself better than Muli? Would you at least agree to say
          > that you are "as good as Muli"? If that is so, given two candidates who
          > are just as good, didn't they act sensibly in choosing the one with the
          > better grades?

          Muli was not chosen instead of me. He was chosen, and I was rejected by a
          different team. I just gave him as an example.

          > Wouldn't you also agree that Muli's experience in the Linux Kernel might be
          > a little more relevant to certain companies than your experience in Freecell
          > Solver (which is an interesting program, but not of immediate interest to
          > any company I know).
          >

          Freecell Solver told me a lot about data structures, algorithms,
          modularity, efficiency, graph traversal algorithms, interaction with the
          user community, human-factors engineering, usability and many other
          things. While a basic solver can be written by an experienced programmer
          in a few days, it will take a lot of time to write something the extent of
          my program.

          I believe a programmer who can write a program with a good
          and feature-rich implementation (I'm not saying this is the case for FCS,
          but you can judge for yourself), is more capable as a computer scientist
          or software engineer than the average Technion student, even one with high
          grades.

          > > When I was discriminated it felt bad. It felt like I was worthless, and I
          > > felt no one cared how good I really was. In my position I am not
          > > discriminated against out of belonging to any minority. But when I do on a
          > > personal level, it feels just as bad.
          >
          > But when it's done on a personal level you are free to learn from your
          > mistakes and mend your ways, in order to succeed better next time. If
          > you were discrimated because of the color of your skin or your accent,
          > there was nothing you could have done about it.
          >

          Perhaps. But sometimes people don't like me because I am doing things
          right. I.e: jealousy, control freakness, or whatever. I think I did the
          right thing when I invested time in educational extra-corricular
          activities like hacking on Linux and experimenting with it, instead of
          devoting 100% of my time and attention to my studies. I worked hard and as
          I saw it, enough, but I learned a lot from things I did outside what
          Technion told me.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

          An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
          doctors away.

          Falk Fish
        • Nadav Har'El
          ... But the people of Germany were relatively free to choose many different courses of action. They could have even chosen to wage another war against france,
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 16 3:18 PM
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            On Wed, Apr 16, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: The Legality of Discrimination":
            > Free? Germany was enslaved to France and had to pay an enormous tax to
            > compensate it for the war. Consult every post-WWI history book to learn
            > that.

            But the people of Germany were relatively free to choose many different
            courses of action. They could have even chosen to wage another war against
            france, if they wanted. But that doesn't explain why they chose to be
            anti-semitic, because your claim is that being anti-semitic was against
            their own interests, and therefore they wouldn't chose it. I wish it were
            so simple...

            > > In 2000, when I was in the "millenium" mood, I tried to calculate how many
            > > people were killed in the last millenium by human-inflicted disasters (such
            > > as wars, religious persecutions, etc.). The number I came up with: 500,000,000!
            > > That's half a billion people murdered by their fellow men in 1,000 years.
            > >
            >
            > I know. It usually came up with governments and other authorities who
            > tried to enforce "morality" down people's throat. Not out of the actions
            > of individuals.

            This is true, though in a large part of history, it's not exactly clear
            what is a "government" or "authority", and what is a collection of men who
            voluntarily (driven by some shared belief) got together in order to do their
            mayhem (e.g., crusades, pogroms, etc.).

            It's too easy to say that all the evils you see are caused by a leader
            telling his followers to do bad things, and that in a "free state" you
            wouldn't have such leaders. But unfortunately, saying this is wrong. Very
            wrong. In a free state, local leaders are free to build up their own groups
            of followers, and even their own militias, and if the "good" militias of
            this state are not strong enough, they will not be able to stop the "bad"
            leader when he is strong enough and starts the "bad" acts (killing, lynching,
            robbing, or whatever).

            The word "local" in the above paragraph can vary in locality: for example
            in the US there were whole states where "bad" things (e.g., lynching) were
            done without being punished. In some countries there are neighborhoods or
            even cities where the local gang leaders have acquired so much strength that
            the official government can't do anything about it. Looking at the whole world
            (which in some respects can be called a "free state" because there are hardly
            any laws that effect the whole world), the whole world cannot do anything
            about renegade countries set out to destroy the world and/or make their
            own people miserable (see: U.N. and Iraq).


            > > > Perhaps not. I'm not entirely familiar with Historical anecdotes.
            > > Those who don't listen to history, are doomed to repeat it :)
            > History repeats itself, but not exactly. There's a limit to how much room
            > I can fill my mind with useless details. Otherwise, it becomes too crowded
            > and I can't recall the more important things.
            >
            > I think applied logic is more important than knowing every historical
            > detail. With applied logic one can analyse current affairs, using reason
            > and idealism alone.

            Let me tell you why I think learning history *is* important.

            I consider myself a scientist. And as such, I believe the scientific process
            should be followed.

            In the scientific process, it is not enough to make conjectures or invent
            theories (such as "humans are by nature good" or "LFC is a good form of
            government") - you must also set out to prove your theories.

            Now, proof of a scientific theory can be of two types:

            The first type of proof is a proof based on mathematics or logic: starting
            with axioms, you use the rules of logic to arrive with the required
            conclusion. This is the kind of proof you seem to prefer. But such proofs
            of theories in the area of political-science are almost impossible. We don't
            have any obvious set of axioms, and we don't have any encompassing
            mathematical models to model the behavior of individuals or groups.
            When such proofs exist for certain issues, they are wonderful, but
            unfortunately they don't exist for most political issues. I dare you find
            a mathematical proof that "drugs should be legal", for example (just to
            take one example you repeated several times). Don't forget that you'll need
            to base your proof on axioms that nobody will be able to contradict.

            The second type of proof is by experimentation, as is done in physics. You
            make up a theory, and check that in all known experiments the theory stands.
            You also make predictions for experiments not yet done, and see if your
            predictions succeed.
            But when dealing with theories in politics, we obviously cannot do direct
            experiments. Most researchers (not named Lenin, etc.) cannot try their
            political theories on a country. This is why to build your theories, you
            have to look at experiments already done by others, i.e., countries that
            now exist or have existed in the past. If someone tells me of a political
            idea, and can't demonstrate how it worked in practice in some country -
            or at least that it wasn't shown to be a spectacular failure in some country -
            this someone is not a serious philosopher/political-scientist/whatever.

            Let me give you an example: when Marx, and later Lenin, came up with their
            theory of how Communism would be a perfect political system, their ideas
            seemed plausible. These ideas were never tested before, and they "seemed"
            to be based on sensible conjectures like "people are good", "equality is
            important".
            But Lenin's experiment to prove his theory, spanning about 70 years and
            done on hundreds of millions of human guinea-pigs (where needless to say,
            the Helsinki Decleration was not exactly followed), was a spectacular failure.
            It not only failed to prove Lenin's conjectures, you might even say that it
            proved the opposite conjectures (through "reductio ad absurdum").
            But the important thing is that if somebody now "re-invents" the idea of
            Leninism, there is no need to try this sorry experiment again - we can
            immediately tell this guy: "no, this idea will fail, and we have an experiment
            to prove this". This is why knowing history is important.

            > > So what? The situtation is still better than it was in the late 50s.
            > > Nobody said the anti-segregation laws resulted in a perfect society, any
            >...
            > Granted the laws helped a bit. However, I believe that:
            >
            > 1. Public Education.

            This idea was hopeless when the education system itself was run by the
            same racists and with the same ideas of segregation that the federal
            government was trying to uproot in the first place.

            Before the education system could be used to promote the federal government's
            ideals, the federal government had to control it first. And this wasn't
            easy - and went against the tradition in the U.S..

            > 2. Organization and self-arming by Blacks and white people who supported
            > them. Self-protection

            Luckily, the blacks that followed your advice, like the "Black Panthers",
            "Nation of Islam", and so on, did not win over the heart of most blacks,
            and the gun-free ideas of people like Rev. Martin Luther King jr. became
            more accepted.
            If it wasn't so, I'd hate to think what the U.S. would look like now. Most
            likely it would be torn by civil war between blacks and whites, and both
            blacks and whites would have been much worse-off than they are right now.

            > 3. Enforcement of Laws that prevented public discrimination

            Exactly. But this is what you said originally they shouldn't do :)

            Note that here "public" doesn't mean "federal-government-run". The "public"
            in a complex organization like the United States has several levels - federal,
            state, city, corporation, and so on. In this context, "public" should
            basically mean any setting where people find themselves in without a real
            choice to be somewhere else.

            > Let's suppose you have N militias where N > 5. If one militia goes corrupt
            > (all of its members? Very unlikely), then the other N-1 militias can fight
            > it. Like I said I don't believe in a free man destroying himself and
            > becoming corrupt suddenly. A good man with a good philosophy and a lot of
            > ideology will never go corrupt. You seem to have quite a lot of distrust
            > of people? Why?

            How is what you describe different from the situation in many countries
            before modern times, where local chiefs, princes, warlords, shoguns, or
            whatever you'd want to call them fighting each other constantly? None of
            them though they were corrupt - they were always under the impression that
            their group was "right" and the other group was "wrong" and only a battle
            will settle this issue.

            --
            Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Apr 17 2003, 15 Nisan 5763
            nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
            Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |"Do you want to restart Windows now or
            http://nadav.harel.org.il |wait for the next crash?"
          • Shlomi Fish
            ... 1. I was mainly talking about a free and enlightened individual rather than a free society. 2. It seems we disagree if Germany was free enough, or had
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 27 6:53 AM
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              On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

              > On Wed, Apr 16, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: The Legality of Discrimination":
              > > Free? Germany was enslaved to France and had to pay an enormous tax to
              > > compensate it for the war. Consult every post-WWI history book to learn
              > > that.
              >
              > But the people of Germany were relatively free to choose many different
              > courses of action. They could have even chosen to wage another war against
              > france, if they wanted. But that doesn't explain why they chose to be
              > anti-semitic, because your claim is that being anti-semitic was against
              > their own interests, and therefore they wouldn't chose it. I wish it were
              > so simple...
              >

              1. I was mainly talking about a free and enlightened individual rather
              than a "free" society.

              2. It seems we disagree if Germany was free enough, or had the conditions
              to sport a fully liberal whereabout. Let's drop this case.

              > > > In 2000, when I was in the "millenium" mood, I tried to calculate how many
              > > > people were killed in the last millenium by human-inflicted disasters (such
              > > > as wars, religious persecutions, etc.). The number I came up with: 500,000,000!
              > > > That's half a billion people murdered by their fellow men in 1,000 years.
              > > >
              > >
              > > I know. It usually came up with governments and other authorities who
              > > tried to enforce "morality" down people's throat. Not out of the actions
              > > of individuals.
              >
              > This is true, though in a large part of history, it's not exactly clear
              > what is a "government" or "authority", and what is a collection of men who
              > voluntarily (driven by some shared belief) got together in order to do their
              > mayhem (e.g., crusades, pogroms, etc.).
              >
              > It's too easy to say that all the evils you see are caused by a leader
              > telling his followers to do bad things, and that in a "free state" you
              > wouldn't have such leaders. But unfortunately, saying this is wrong. Very
              > wrong. In a free state, local leaders are free to build up their own groups
              > of followers, and even their own militias, and if the "good" militias of
              > this state are not strong enough, they will not be able to stop the "bad"
              > leader when he is strong enough and starts the "bad" acts (killing, lynching,
              > robbing, or whatever).
              >

              It is very unlikely to happen. In an LFC environment:

              1. Bad people will find it more and more difficult to survive without
              changing their beliefs for the better. Most people will quickly become
              more and more enlightened and simply laugh at the evil leaders'
              irrationalities.

              2. Good militias, police and other benevolent forces like that will
              flourish in a free environment, much more than the equivalent ones backed
              up by unlawful elements.

              Remember that LFC is not a "dog eat dog" environment or an anarchy.

              > The word "local" in the above paragraph can vary in locality: for example
              > in the US there were whole states where "bad" things (e.g., lynching) were
              > done without being punished.

              Again, the U.S. was not a free state back then, and still isn't to a large
              extent.

              > In some countries there are neighborhoods or
              > even cities where the local gang leaders have acquired so much strength that
              > the official government can't do anything about it.

              These countries are not free states. If they converted into LFC, these
              gang leaders would be driven out or eliminated.

              > Looking at the whole world
              > (which in some respects can be called a "free state" because there are hardly
              > any laws that effect the whole world),

              The whole world is not a free state because any given person is living in
              one country or the other, which is itself not a free state.

              > the whole world cannot do anything
              > about renegade countries set out to destroy the world and/or make their
              > own people miserable (see: U.N. and Iraq).
              >

              Like I said, your point is invalid.

              >
              > > > > Perhaps not. I'm not entirely familiar with Historical anecdotes.
              > > > Those who don't listen to history, are doomed to repeat it :)
              > > History repeats itself, but not exactly. There's a limit to how much room
              > > I can fill my mind with useless details. Otherwise, it becomes too crowded
              > > and I can't recall the more important things.
              > >
              > > I think applied logic is more important than knowing every historical
              > > detail. With applied logic one can analyse current affairs, using reason
              > > and idealism alone.
              >
              > Let me tell you why I think learning history *is* important.
              >
              > I consider myself a scientist. And as such, I believe the scientific process
              > should be followed.
              >
              > In the scientific process, it is not enough to make conjectures or invent
              > theories (such as "humans are by nature good" or "LFC is a good form of
              > government") - you must also set out to prove your theories.
              >
              > Now, proof of a scientific theory can be of two types:
              >
              > The first type of proof is a proof based on mathematics or logic: starting
              > with axioms, you use the rules of logic to arrive with the required
              > conclusion. This is the kind of proof you seem to prefer. But such proofs
              > of theories in the area of political-science are almost impossible. We don't
              > have any obvious set of axioms, and we don't have any encompassing
              > mathematical models to model the behavior of individuals or groups.
              > When such proofs exist for certain issues, they are wonderful, but
              > unfortunately they don't exist for most political issues. I dare you find
              > a mathematical proof that "drugs should be legal", for example (just to
              > take one example you repeated several times). Don't forget that you'll need
              > to base your proof on axioms that nobody will be able to contradict.
              >

              We can't build an exact mathematical proof, but we can still use logic,
              reason and facts to conjure a good proof. We can analyze the arguments,
              and see where each one is true or false. It is a Neo-Tech claim that one
              can deduce anything starting from logic and the biological nature of men
              and women. Nothing else is required.

              I cannot give an exact proof that drugs should be legal. But there are
              many arguments, statistics and facts to back it up, and I could not find a
              good argument against it, that I was not able to nullify.

              > The second type of proof is by experimentation, as is done in physics. You
              > make up a theory, and check that in all known experiments the theory stands.
              > You also make predictions for experiments not yet done, and see if your
              > predictions succeed.

              Correct.

              > But when dealing with theories in politics, we obviously cannot do direct
              > experiments. Most researchers (not named Lenin, etc.) cannot try their
              > political theories on a country. This is why to build your theories, you
              > have to look at experiments already done by others, i.e., countries that
              > now exist or have existed in the past. If someone tells me of a political
              > idea, and can't demonstrate how it worked in practice in some country -
              > or at least that it wasn't shown to be a spectacular failure in some country -
              > this someone is not a serious philosopher/political-scientist/whatever.
              >

              Like I said, a complete Laissez-Faire Capitalism environment was never
              enacted yet. There were always small or large deviations (probably very
              large). I can note to some close cases and show that they are good enough.

              Nevertheless, Ofir here believes we can invalidate LFC just because some
              Game-Theoretic Models prove it is not stable. You should have a talk with
              him as well.

              > Let me give you an example: when Marx, and later Lenin, came up with their
              > theory of how Communism would be a perfect political system, their ideas
              > seemed plausible. These ideas were never tested before, and they "seemed"
              > to be based on sensible conjectures like "people are good", "equality is
              > important".
              > But Lenin's experiment to prove his theory, spanning about 70 years and
              > done on hundreds of millions of human guinea-pigs (where needless to say,
              > the Helsinki Decleration was not exactly followed), was a spectacular failure.
              > It not only failed to prove Lenin's conjectures, you might even say that it
              > proved the opposite conjectures (through "reductio ad absurdum").
              > But the important thing is that if somebody now "re-invents" the idea of
              > Leninism, there is no need to try this sorry experiment again - we can
              > immediately tell this guy: "no, this idea will fail, and we have an experiment
              > to prove this". This is why knowing history is important.
              >

              I'm not completely ignorant of history. If someone tells me a historical
              fact, I will not forcibly try to forget it. But I believe I can analyze
              enough new data based on what I already know.

              > > > So what? The situtation is still better than it was in the late 50s.
              > > > Nobody said the anti-segregation laws resulted in a perfect society, any
              > >...
              > > Granted the laws helped a bit. However, I believe that:
              > >
              > > 1. Public Education.
              >
              > This idea was hopeless when the education system itself was run by the
              > same racists and with the same ideas of segregation that the federal
              > government was trying to uproot in the first place.
              >
              > Before the education system could be used to promote the federal government's
              > ideals, the federal government had to control it first. And this wasn't
              > easy - and went against the tradition in the U.S..
              >

              Public education need not necessarily be done by the education system. It
              can be done by volunteers. It can be done by commercials and ads. It can
              be done by messengers.

              > > 2. Organization and self-arming by Blacks and white people who supported
              > > them. Self-protection
              >
              > Luckily, the blacks that followed your advice, like the "Black Panthers",
              > "Nation of Islam", and so on, did not win over the heart of most blacks,
              > and the gun-free ideas of people like Rev. Martin Luther King jr. became
              > more accepted.
              > If it wasn't so, I'd hate to think what the U.S. would look like now. Most
              > likely it would be torn by civil war between blacks and whites, and both
              > blacks and whites would have been much worse-off than they are right now.
              >

              I don't know too much about the "Black Panthers" and friends. However,
              the right to bear arms and to organize a militia and to protect oneself
              against violence is a constitutional right. Everywhere. Anytime. The
              Blacks in America had a right to protect themselves against lynches.

              I'm not saying they should have attacked innocent white persons. That is
              initiatory force. But they could certainly protect themselves.

              > > 3. Enforcement of Laws that prevented public discrimination
              >
              > Exactly. But this is what you said originally they shouldn't do :)
              >
              > Note that here "public" doesn't mean "federal-government-run". The "public"
              > in a complex organization like the United States has several levels - federal,
              > state, city, corporation, and so on. In this context, "public" should
              > basically mean any setting where people find themselves in without a real
              > choice to be somewhere else.
              >

              OK. But let's suppose I want to join a small private firm and it rejects
              me because I'm a Jew/Woman/Black/White/Male/whatever. I can simply try
              somewhere else. The discrimination is of no concern to the public good.

              I agree that the distinction between private and public is not always
              straightforward. However, a private entity can exercise discrimination,
              while a public one probably must not.

              > > Let's suppose you have N militias where N > 5. If one militia goes corrupt
              > > (all of its members? Very unlikely), then the other N-1 militias can fight
              > > it. Like I said I don't believe in a free man destroying himself and
              > > becoming corrupt suddenly. A good man with a good philosophy and a lot of
              > > ideology will never go corrupt. You seem to have quite a lot of distrust
              > > of people? Why?
              >
              > How is what you describe different from the situation in many countries
              > before modern times, where local chiefs, princes, warlords, shoguns, or
              > whatever you'd want to call them fighting each other constantly? None of
              > them though they were corrupt - they were always under the impression that
              > their group was "right" and the other group was "wrong" and only a battle
              > will settle this issue.
              >

              Those countries were not fully Capitalistic, communication was sporadic,
              and these militias were not voluntary, competing or private. Each locality
              had its own monopoly of a militia, and that was it. In an free country, it
              is possible that in a given area, several militias will co-exist, none of
              them harmful.

              I again refer you to the Neo-Tech Constitution for a very brief definition
              of what is constitutional:

              http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage83.html

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish


              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

              An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
              doctors away.

              Falk Fish
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