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Re: "Objective Law", Morality, Ethos and Ethics

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  • Shlomi Fish
    Since we are in a quotation war, here is a nice quote:
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 14, 2003
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      Since we are in a quotation war, here is a nice quote:

      <<<
      Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add,
      but when you have nothing left to take away.

      Antoine de Saint-Exupery
      >>>

      For those who don't remember de Saint-Exupery wrote the Little Prince.

      Now apply this to a country's canon and you'll get what I'll be saying all
      along. There is no point in adding redundant laws or such that attempt to
      fix symptoms of other problems in the law or "immoralities". You should
      keep the law book as minimalistic as possible.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish





      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

      An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
      doctors away.

      Falk Fish
    • Nadav Har'El
      ... A minimalistic law would not say that stealing is illegal, or that going into a street where a circular red sign with a white stripe on it is illegal.
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 15, 2003
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        On Tue, Apr 15, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: "Objective Law", Morality, Ethos and Ethics":
        > along. There is no point in adding redundant laws or such that attempt to
        > fix symptoms of other problems in the law or "immoralities". You should
        > keep the law book as minimalistic as possible.

        A "minimalistic" law would not say that stealing is illegal, or that going
        into a street where a circular red sign with a white stripe on it is illegal.
        But you cannot run a country without such "mudane" laws...

        It's the same as a computer program - it's nice for a computer program to
        be lean and not contain millions of lines of code - but you cannot escape
        the fact that in order to have more features and to support more situtation,
        your program will need to grow. It shouldn't bloat, and it shouldn't be
        written to cater for irrelevant situtations, but it can still grow.

        --
        Nadav Har'El | Tuesday, Apr 15 2003, 13 Nisan 5763
        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
        Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Give Yogi a rifle. Support your right to
        http://nadav.harel.org.il |arm bears!
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... Actually, a minimalistic lawbook would say such things. Take a look at the Neo-Tech Constitution: http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage83.html It
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 15, 2003
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          On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

          > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: "Objective Law", Morality, Ethos and Ethics":
          > > along. There is no point in adding redundant laws or such that attempt to
          > > fix symptoms of other problems in the law or "immoralities". You should
          > > keep the law book as minimalistic as possible.
          >
          > A "minimalistic" law would not say that stealing is illegal, or that going
          > into a street where a circular red sign with a white stripe on it is illegal.
          > But you cannot run a country without such "mudane" laws...
          >

          Actually, a minimalistic lawbook would say such things. Take a look at the
          Neo-Tech Constitution:

          http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage83.html

          It reads:

          <<<
          No person, group of persons, or government may initiate force, threat of
          force, or fraud against the person or property of any individual.
          >>>

          Read _property_. A law that prohibits stealing is important to protect
          that.

          > It's the same as a computer program - it's nice for a computer program to
          > be lean and not contain millions of lines of code - but you cannot escape
          > the fact that in order to have more features and to support more situtation,
          > your program will need to grow. It shouldn't bloat, and it shouldn't be
          > written to cater for irrelevant situtations, but it can still grow.
          >

          Granted. But the law books of most countries are very much bloated. Way
          too much bloated. And many times they reflect the interests of the
          government, various politicians and interest groups more than they reflect
          that of objective Ethics.

          While I support adding features to program, I don't want an editor to turn
          into an operating system.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          >



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

          An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
          doctors away.

          Falk Fish
        • Omer Musaev
          -- Omer Mussaev Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D Mercury Interactive ... From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@vipe.stud.technion.ac.il] Sent: Wednesday, April
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 16, 2003
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            --
            Omer Mussaev
            Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
            Mercury Interactive

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:58 AM
            To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: "Objective Law", Morality, Ethos and Ethics

            > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

            >> It's the same as a computer program - it's nice for a computer program to
            >> be lean and not contain millions of lines of code - but you cannot escape
            >> the fact that in order to have more features and to support more
            situtation,
            >> your program will need to grow. It shouldn't bloat, and it shouldn't be
            >> written to cater for irrelevant situtations, but it can still grow.
            >>

            > Granted. But the law books of most countries are very much bloated. Way
            > too much bloated. And many times they reflect the interests of the
            > government, various politicians and interest groups more than they reflect
            > that of objective Ethics.

            Some people do not get C++. Ever. They just bubble about bloated language,
            and overcomplicated rules, and such and such and such. Other people just
            frown upon the constants in the complexity calculations. Once you had
            figured
            what is the order of complexity, using the O notation, you are done.
            And there are still other people who do not know where to use hyphen,
            em-dash or en-dash while writing plain English.

            "It is overly complicated. Too many rules. Can be simpler."

            However, as a self-proclaimed enlightened person, you"d better get along
            one simple rule:

            Complicated problems require complicated solutions.



            Regards,

                  Shlomi Fish

            >



            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
            Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

            An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
            doctors away.

                  Falk Fish



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          • Shlomi Fish
            ... Wrong! Some seemingly complicated problems require very simple solution. We ve been fighting drug abuse for years now, without much success and with
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 16, 2003
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              On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Omer Musaev wrote:

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:58 AM
              > To: philosophy-il@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: "Objective Law", Morality, Ethos and Ethics
              >
              > > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:
              >
              > >> It's the same as a computer program - it's nice for a computer program to
              > >> be lean and not contain millions of lines of code - but you cannot escape
              > >> the fact that in order to have more features and to support more
              > situtation,
              > >> your program will need to grow. It shouldn't bloat, and it shouldn't be
              > >> written to cater for irrelevant situtations, but it can still grow.
              > >>
              >
              > > Granted. But the law books of most countries are very much bloated. Way
              > > too much bloated. And many times they reflect the interests of the
              > > government, various politicians and interest groups more than they reflect
              > > that of objective Ethics.
              >
              > Some people do not get C++. Ever. They just bubble about bloated language,
              > and overcomplicated rules, and such and such and such.
              > Other people just
              > frown upon the constants in the complexity calculations. Once you had
              > figured
              > what is the order of complexity, using the O notation, you are done.
              > And there are still other people who do not know where to use hyphen,
              > em-dash or en-dash while writing plain English.
              >
              > "It is overly complicated. Too many rules. Can be simpler."
              >
              > However, as a self-proclaimed enlightened person, you"d better get along
              > one simple rule:
              >
              > Complicated problems require complicated solutions.
              >

              Wrong! Some seemingly complicated problems require very simple solution.
              We've been fighting drug abuse for years now, without much success and
              with increased crime rate and with a lot of hype in the media, and with
              tons of side effects. All this while most people ignored the most simple
              solution of legalizing drugs.

              In science, one follows the most simple explanation that explains all
              the relevant phenomena. You don't over-complicate science, unless it's
              absolutely necessary.

              If C++ is over-complicated, that's because Perl is much nicer and more
              straightforward to understand and work with. C++ supports OOP roughly as
              much as COBOL supports Functional Programming. And many people seem to
              agree with it. While primitive C++ implementations provide the C
              programmer with nice syntactic sugar, and some more peace of mind,
              Standard C++ is so over-complicated and so hard to implement and work
              with, that it is a templates and "references" mess.

              Keep it simple, stupid! I can show you how most laws in most countries are
              harmful or useless or potentially harmful. Seriously. The law canon of a
              country is over-complicated without a good reason. I agree that some
              things are necessary to be kept complicated. But the law canon of a
              country can be implemented with much less laws for the benefit of all of
              its citizens.

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish

              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              >       Shlomi Fish
              >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Shlomi Fish        shlomif@...
              > Home Page:         http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
              >
              > An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
              > doctors away.
              >
              >       Falk Fish
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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              >



              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

              An apple a day will keep a doctor away. Two apples a day will keep two
              doctors away.

              Falk Fish
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