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Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

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  • infowolf1
    true, but one comment. Those various species have managed to cull and even kill off other species, many species went extinct without help from humans. Also
    Message 1 of 34 , Aug 8, 2013
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      true, but one comment. Those various species have managed to cull and
      even kill off other species, many species went extinct without help from 
      humans. Also fewer drawn out adjectives might help, less wordiness.

      Humans managed to overgraze places long before modern methods. 
      Humans have been engaged in agriculture for thousands of years. 

      Agrabusiness is indeed a very dangerous thing, and it also is bad for
      humans because it is so profit driven that serious mistakes are made
      which impact our food safety, AND because having a "cash crop"
      mentality even in small farmers, means you are not growing a selection
      of many plants with a view to living off your land to some extent.

      Restoring this kind of farming as on a par to cash crop farming, or
      alongside a cash crop, and trade within the local geography, should be


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>
      To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>
      Sent: Thu, Aug 8, 2013 4:07 pm
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      We ought to curtail this forum thread for a while, to give breathing space for everyone else.
      As previously stated, if one communicates, as Copernicus, differently to other Stories Seeded Broad-Cast, Epi-Sowed Episode(s) Hosted by, Vectored by, Seeded into/via, Conditioned/Habituated/Bred/Domesticated forms of life such as Humans, and before you know it you are derided, dismissed, misunderstood, attacked, outcast, silenced, made pariah, got rid of - like so many other forms of life to make way for what humans have been lead, and lead each other, to think that they want - and the pack snarl together at anyone who seems to suggest differently as if the pack is 'right' and 'best'.
      Tigers, 3,000 of which are alleged to remain in the wild. Instead of trying to help them, save them, it's instead what's on special offer down the local supermarket or nursery that is given more interest, the goods of which come from world-wide factory farms, plantations, enslaved workforces (human and otherwise), which plantings and plantations displace the Tiger', Orangutans' etc... natural habitat, have world-wide consequences, and so forth. But don't worry, the humans are getting what they want 'cos they are lead, and lead each other, to want it. They know enough. They tell each other they are the best engineers. There are loads of articles and reports and professorships and Broad-Cast Natural History TV series saying so it must be true just as the Chinese government tell their Masses the truth al the time, and the exams and politicians and police expect you to say so too, or else... It's kill/cull the badgers, deer, squirrels, rabbits, allegedly-invasive species, in fact just about anything/everything, 'cos the humans want what they want. So do 2-year old children, and they throw tantrums when they do not get it.
      If we believe the presented histories, then humanoids have seemingly lived amongst Planet Earth' natural world for many thousands of years, for the most part relatively harmoniously, barring perhaps the occasional slash and burn. They lived amongst the wild creatures, flora, fauna, fungi, etc. They may have loved their life, but the propaganda people may have made out that the didn't.
      Currently, humans are voraciously raping planet earth, in roughly one human lifespan, and want what they believe that they want 'cos they want it and have been lead to want it, and lead each other to want it.
      IF you believe the rhetoric, then mass extinction is underway caused, in significant part, by humans... Caused, in significant part, by what human choose to grow, breed, plant, farm, domesticate...
      I have not communicated what has really been done to humans, in part because people are not yet ready to know and comprehend that. Egos will tellingly baulk at such sentences... Domesticated Hamsters raised in cages may not know the natural world, may see a natural world presened on TV screens or in hamster books or in hamster school within the cage(s), and they are proud of their Hamster wheel constructions/engineering, hamster sofas, hamster tennis players, hamster workers. But they are in cages, of the mind, separate from the more-natural world. Still, they'e the best, the most clever, so what do they care... SO WHAT! is a Motto...Anything-goes and can be excused, rationalized, by any means.
      PFAF is of importance. But what people is it unleashed by, via, to. If 'SO WHAT' is their motto, ten what d you suppose they'll enable, feed, grow...? The Amazon chopped down for Forest Gardening, 'cos humans are such great engineers and its good for us innit... Marine Farms anyone? Aquaculture farms, anyone? GM everything, anyone? Terraforming Mars, anyone? Geoengineering Planet Earth, anyone? They're (you are?) tripping over themselves to do it, a fun new assignment/mission... What a playground! Sod the Tigers, then, and the Snow Leopards, Badgers, squirrels, deer, insects, etc... 'co they are niggling, mere pests, and get in the way... Jus feed 'em GM fodder, eh?  Just pump 'em full of antibiotics and steroids to strain their milking capacity... SO WHAT about consequences, eh?
      Laptops etc... a) Change Mind(s), b) Program/Seed Minds, c) Use significant natural resources, d)Are part of a world-wide WEB with baits, lures, traps, and it is not what people naively 'think', e) Have a churnover lifespan of a few years before the next one, and its add-ons, are out and soon mandatd, f) Relatively huge industrial estates, industries, marketing, transportation etc.. networks and planetary usage go into and/or are supported/engineered by and/or using such, which smother tracts of land and sea that would otherwise be more populated by 'natural' plants, plankton, etc... and displace other forms of life in the process. People look a the laptop to 'study', for example, butterflies, instead of getting out into the natural world and experiencing it for themselves and ALL the other aspects of nature AT THE SAME TIME... It is as if the TV or internet ARE the natural world - why bother to leave the cage, you can blow up a city, or order rainforests cut down, or bred plants to plant, with the click of a button... They are entirely relevant.
      Your first sentence and statements with regards to 'my' alleged premise seem to bar no relation to what I have been writing all the while...which is about the entirety, not just what humans want, and abou te dynamics of what is happenig...start the tickle, plnt the seed, and what grows thereby, symptomatic of...?
      Plant the idea of laptops, of the internet, and what is hosted, fed, grows, assimilates, defended, by HOST(s)/VECTOR(s) who feel DIS-EASE otherwise...and spread that DIS-EASE. The real pests are not 'out there'...
      Contentment that doesn't depend upon 'stuff' has been preferentially deselected, bred out, outcast....Instead replaced with baited, LEAD Pb LEDGERing Sinking Falling Baited Lured Tempting Traps...LEDGERs...which the human prey so very eagerly take...get hooked...addicted and wanting to mantain the addictions at all costs...Pb Lead to be Mad as Hatters so far...
      Toodle Pip...
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, 8 August 2013, 12:28
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      why is your constant whine that something is done for the benefit of humans
      and not the plants? 

      and we were domesticated and enslaved long before the industrial revolution,
      it was just in different ways.

      your remark about laptops and so forth is irrelevant. They are not edible.

      where would we be without supermarkets? starving to death pretty soon.

      discouraging proliferation of edible plants growing on public land is not
      going to help anyone. And lots of animals and insects aka pests benefit
      from domestic plants.

      wild plants are not "holistic" whatever you think that means. They may be
      more disease resistant, and there are breeders of antique domestic animals,
      fowl and plant breeds who keep them going or add their qualities back into
      the modern variations. Wild versions are just things with a potential, obvious
      enough to build on by selective breeding. 

      Holistic? get real. some animals and even insects are engineers, beavers
      build dams. elephants and pigs and hippos do big wallows by the river,
      extending water in the wallows farther inland. African termites build huge
      details how beavers change the whole ecosystem. 

      We are the best engineers. The unexamined (but obvious) premise of all
      your arguments is that nothing should be disturbed everything is exactly 
      as it should be and should be left alone and aside from human intervention
      all is static (and healthier). 

      Human intervention has been very good indeed for many domesticated
      animals and plants. 

      Why should we not be free to modify our environment for OUR benefit
      as long as it doesn't destroy a species outright, which is what animals
      and plants and bugs do all the time, even if only in the form of killing
      or displacing other plants and animals? 

      The wild version of some plant, with its smaller and fewer seeds, is
      ipso facto less competent to survive because of fewer seeds.  

      Migrating birds bring all kinds of stuff with them and so do some 
      migratory herd animals. 

      why are we humans to not care about ourselves, while its okay for
      animals to care about themselves? 

      that said, you are right about the quick buck motives and so forth
      doing damage. But that is a separate issue from the impact humans

      Why do you object to the idea that Native Americans did any kind
      of agriculture? In fact the five socalled civilized tribes lived a lifestyle
      and in some places in stone houses comparable to european 

      primitives were often the first to develop the domestic version of 
      plants which the modern people then developed more.  Indian corn
      is an example. 


      -----Original Message-----From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>Sent: Thu, Aug 8, 2013 3:46 amSubject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Thanks for the constructive reply Christine.
      1) With regards to the distinctions between Bred/Domesticated/Preferentially-Selected Traits and Species/Varieties, and 'Holistic' forms, the distinctions are often very subtle - as is getting things more 'correct' most of the time - yet of potentially significant consequences. We have only space here for a few illustrative examples. Most varieties of grain presently being planted, bought, sold, etc... are bred, preferentially-selected, and increasingly-deliberately GMO varieties unleashed to the natural world. There are few, and in most case no, examples of precursor 'original' 'wild' varieties. As such, if, for example, we presume 'a past' exists (the physics is different..), then we may presume a branching Family Tree / River / Lightning Strike of breeding for almost any forms of life (including human), each grain type originating via one or a few 'original' parents, and 'naturally' 'stable', 'naturally' diversifying, and/or preferentially-selected/preferentially-sown or even deliberately bred/pollinated/etc by humans. The more 'Holistic' forms would be, or would be closer to, the more 'original' 'parent' form(s) PER LOCALITY PER ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH IT HAS SEEMINGLY SPENT MUCH TIME, MANY GENERATIONS, WELL-ADAPTED. What that may mean is that, whilst the grain may be small  or fewer as compared with (arbitrary? fashionable?) human desires/whims, or the stalk longer than supermarket-providing mechanised agricultural infrastructures an Professorships choose to desire, the 'Holistic' varieties may instead still have other traits that have not yet been deselected/bred-out that better suit, that are better and more completely adapted to, the full experience of the environment to which they have had time to become accustomed. It might be, for example, that some Butterfly who required the 'Holistic' variety as a food plant became extinct when it was altered/deselected by human breeding/preferential-selections. It might be that the grain it produced was smaller and less numerous, but it was able to survive a wider range of thermal, wind/lodging, invertebrate, light/shade, damp/dry conditions, and be more resilient across a wider range of changes. 'because' it had become adapted to ALL of the applicable challenges of those conditions. However, following preferential selection by humans, change of the environment, and/or deliberate breeding, using myopic blinkered, fashionable, vested-interest'd, deride-/attack-anyone-who-questions-it, breeding ideas/industries/Professorships/Leveraging-Funding-Opportunities/Ching-Ching-Get-Rich-Quick-and-Market-It/Start-a-Breeding-Business-and-Write-the-Reports-and-Pay-for--Fund-the-Scientists notions, ONLY ONE OR A FEW TRAITS were selected/bred for, with little or no or insufficient and correct awareness and care as to ALL THE OTHER relationships that the 'Holistic' forms inherently accounted for. The situation today is that some Spelt and Emmer, for example, SEEM to be available, but these have really, in almost all cases, been grown in 'modern' agricultural conditions, and have changed accordingly - are not truly 'original', so to speak. What is instead the case is that Gymnosperm grain seed banks, at best, typically hold grain varieties of at most (roughly) a 100 year-old 'origin', which is a long way along the branched Family Tree and just over one human lifespan, and almost all of those were grown last year or recently.. Thus, if trying to get hold of 'heritage' grains, almost all are NOT really 'heritage', so that parent varieties have been made extinct or hard to obtain... Thus, attempts to get more 'Holistic', more resilient, more diverse-in-supportive-relationships grains are hampered by having to recycle very recent highly-preferentially-selected varieties, OR, to wait tens or hundreds of years for such grains to adapt to 'wild' conditions away from significant human influences. Thatchers, who thatch buildings, struggle to obtain Long enough straw, of sufficient quality and reduced Nitrogen/Fertiliser which would otherwise cause them to rot quickly, and  in many cases go half way around the world to obtain the straws/reeds. However, the Thatching straws performed AT LEAST two functions , NOT JUST ONE - Food for Humans/Livestock, AND Thatching Straw, but just produced a little less in the way of edible grain yield. Thatching grans are a little more Diverse, because are both of older type, perhaps less manipulated by humans, and offering several useful traits. Animals and Plants - such as Harvest Mice - had and have a better habitat to live in, and able to nest amongst the taller straws which, whilst more likely to 'Lodge' (fall over, such as in winds/rain) and thus harder for mechanised combine harvesters to harvest, are and were more suited to the more quiet and more slow and more 'gentle' use of Scythes/Sickles to harvest, which, instead of strafing all animals down with a combine harvester, gives the animals more chance to run away and so survive...which includes mammals, butterflies, insects generally, nesting birds, etc... Furthermore, an archaeological site has grown more modern grain varieties, and also more 'ancient' varieties, and they found that the more modern varieties, whilst offering higher yields, succumbed to drought, whereas the older vareties survived... The more 'modern', allegedly-'Advanced' (according to the 'Solid' 'Science' and 'Scientists') are dependent upon, requiring of, artificial and/or unnatural levels of fertiliser, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, 'pure' grain breedin laboratories, etc...without which ENVIRONMENT CONDITIONS they will fail, be unable to survive for long 'in the wild'. We are building a house of cards for billions of humans and their dependents, which only takes the wolf to blow a gentle puff, and...soon...
      The 'Holistic' aspect is stated because there are/were a multiplicity of relationships with which the form of life is/was adapted, suited, and supportive.
      'Domestication', including of humans, however, weakens that. Preferentially selects and deselects, so that the 'domesticated' plants, humans, animals, tend to be less able to survive 'in the wilds', less adapted, less sensitive, less 'connected', of fewer healthy 'relationships', and are dependent upon surrogate provisions and lies to try and social masks/make-up/TV-shows/plays/fakeries/marketing to keep their otherwise-going-extinct situation 'alive' - e.g. nuclear power, mechanised agriculture, 'scientific' breeding laboratories... IF ANY OF THOSE DEPENDENCIES (E.G. BREEDING FACILITIES) GO UNDER, CEASE, GO EXTINCT, FAIL, THEN THE ENTIRE LOT RISKS FAILURE AND IS 'UNSUSTAINABLE'... THE MORE 'HOLISTIC' IS, HOWEVER, INTER-LINKED WITH MORE RELATIONSHIPS MORE HEALTHILY AND IS, FOR GIVEN RANGES OF CONDITIONS, RELATIVELY-SPEAKING MORE SUSTAINABLE AND MORE RESILIENT EVEN IF OFFERING LSS OF ANY ON PARTICULAR USEFUL TRAIT TO HUMAN OR HUMAN-DEPENDENTS...
      Quickly, another example is Apples, and the Domestic Apple. Can Domestic Apples reproduce 'in the wild'? Are they strong, or weak? What diseases do they suffer? By comparison, what diseases do 'wild' crab apples suffer? Can 'domesticated' apples reproduce successfully without human help/aid/grafting? Deer and horse like to eat apples. If they and their young, or Codlin moths say and thus their interactions, become dependent upon apples in a given area and those apples, planted by humans on a disused railway verge, and those apples succumb because the are too weak 'in the wild', then what the knock-on effects to the moths, deer, horses, etc...who habitat is additionally being removed...? Where do they then go? What will try to kill/shoot/rope-them-in? What knock-on effects...? What ceases to be pollinated? What seeds cease to be spread via the dung? If, however, more resilient varieties more suited to the conditions were instead planted, but likely not available from the local fashionable profit-making nursery, then what then? What impatience those who just want to plant?
      Last example:  Humans. Colonial/Imperial efforts world-wide broke (and are still intentionally breaking) human connection with the land and natural world and turned human into slaves, roped-in, domesticated, separate, aloof, trying to control/dominate/exploit/manipulate/zoo/park what was once their kin...from across that mind-gap. Almost all humans are now thus - separate from the natural world, desensitised, captive, encaged, controlling, manipulative, as Western-School children spending day after day in a cage school, fenced-off, given missions/assignments to fulfil, unleashed into a presumed playground to play, expecting someone/everything else to clan up the mess...and rife with excuses because the schooling system is a WESTERN schooling system, a Spaghetti Western Five-Shooter schooling system, where continual Tests and Challenges make the children think they are day after day subtly always under attack and from each other AND teachers AND society AND life, and have to defend and 'justify' themselves or else...so ANY perceived challenges are taken as personal attacks or attacks against the games/missions... See responses to my posts on this forum, or a start... Instead of trying to ascertain and query The Truths, instead the first responses and reactions are all about whether their ego has been affronted or not, whether they have been appeased/flattered/call-ed-good-boy-or-good-girl or not, whether they can carrying on playing their games or not and whether teacher ill call them to stop playing, not whether Planet Earth is actually being harmed or not, not what is The Truth of the matter...
      Humans have been domesticated (actually are farmed, herded, parasitized/parasitic...), made separate fro the natural world, weakened, and now trying to control/exploit/mine the same  as if fro a position of knowledge, whereas quite the reverse is actually the case, and wherever they go there they are, the attitude, thus-far, stays... The distinction is SUBTLE...
      Humans are Fractally, 'Radiating'/'Static'/'Standing-Wave(s)' Concentric Hall-of-Mirrors Ripples from the Core Cause, trying to split, farm, encage, rope-in, harness, put to work, manipulative, tag, track, turn into money, enslave, 'train', all other forms of life, as a reflection of what has hurtfully happened to them... An internal hurt of separation is carried, hosted, a DIS-EASE, which infectiously spreads until HEALED...
      Being 'Holistic' has a lot more to it...
      PFAF has a lot more to it than just what varieties to plant...
      Wit regards to your reply comment: Most of the plants here-mentioned are being selected for being USEFUL to humans, not necessarily useful, or appropriate, to other forms of life; So what?
      The 'So What' of the reply says everything, really..
      Why not just buy the latest ipod, laptop, cloud World Wide WEB, NET-work baited, lured, TRAPpings...? Why not FALL for the TEMPTATION(s)... Anything goes.... Right?
      Or not 'right'...?
      Take the supermarket away, and where are billions of humans and their dependents...?
      All the Best!
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2013, 20:43
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      2) Most of the plants here-mentioned are NOT 'wild' and/or 'native' (if that term can ever truly be used) 
      REPLY: good point about "if that term can ever truly be used"  - so why worry?
      in the regions under consideration, but have been deliberately introduced to areas, especially as modified/bred/cross-bred/domesticated/grafted forms,
      REPLY: a pointer to a good issue: MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT PLANTING GMO.
      get organic heritage etc. seeds only for this project, and preferably for your own 
       and similarly. Many have been weakened in the process of breeding, in the process of preferentially selecting or designing for chosen traits to the dismissal/denigration of others, but have not been planted or bred to suit the Holistic entirety 
      REPLY: what does that mean? two points. ONE. The holistic entirety is dynamic
      and does a lot of changing on its own. Some kinds of plants drive out others, some
      attract pests and some repel them. TWO. hybridization occurs in the wild. The 
      rutabaga is a natural hybrid of turnip and cabbage.
      - despite the regurgitated propaganda/rhetoric/sales-labels/marketing to the contrary. Many of the PFAF plants are very introduced species to, for example, the UK from around the world, from different climates, with different vertebrate/invertebrate/fungal/climatic relationships, interactions, dependencies, etc...
      REPLY: Some plants here to judge by suppressed info about their presence in some 
      old world burial situations, and the presence here of some plants closely similar to 
      old world plants, shows there were deliberate or accidental introductions. tobacco,
      cocaine and tomatoes come to mind as going east, (BEFORE Columbus) 
      and who knows what came here? The Mexican Hairless is obviously the same as a 
      Chinese dog, a Thailand dog is a dead ringer for the Rhodesian Ridgeback, 
      supporting other reasons to think the Chinese travelled around the world. This has been 
      going on a long time.

      The peculiar differences about relationships are relevant to the needs of the 
      plants themselves, and therefore their ability to survive in the wild. If it can't survive
      in the wild, then it isn't a problem. If it is normally food for some old world animal
      that doesn't mean it can't be food here for new world animals.

      Some introductions have been without human aid. Landbridges and floating
      debris from hurricanes have been travel means for many animals and a 
      tornado can suck up seeds and something this lightweight can travel thousands
      of miles in the upper atmosphere before being dumped.

      The opossum with its prehensile tail has hitched rides all over the world, 
      almost the only marsupial outside of Australia and nearby islands. Who knows
      what seeds travelled with it in its fur?

      Migrating birds poop seeds. 

      Cattle Egrets from Africa somehow made it across the Atlantic decades ago
      and established a flock in Texas. Who knows what seeds were in their guts
      and got pooped out here after the flight?

       Most of the plants here-mentioned are being selected for being USEFUL to humans, not necessarily useful, or appropriate, to other forms of life;
      So what? ALL forms of life would do the same if they had the option. The whole
      points about PFAF is pretty much the benefit of humans and secondarily animals
      we work with.

      Of course if some plant has a tendency to kill everything that barely nibbles
      it, and has its primary value as a low margin for error medicinal plant, we should
      not plant it but find something else with a safer margin for our use and less 
      danger to animals.

      -----Original Message----- From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...> Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 9:44 am Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Apologies to continue this thread, but some point need to be recorded here:
      1) Clearly, to state the transforming flow of 'growth'/'transformation' from 'seeds'/'host(s)', and noting population numbers, densities, and geologic time, cannot be implicating a Static assumption;
      2) Most of the plants here-mentioned are NOT 'wild' and/or 'native' (if that term can ever truly be used) in the regions under consideration, but have been deliberately introduced to areas, especially as modified/bred/cross-bred/domesticated/grafted forms, and similarly. Many have been weakened in the process of breeding, in the process of preferentially selecting or designing for chosen traits to the dismissal/denigration of others, but have not been planted or bred to suit the Holistic entirety - despite the regurgitated propaganda/rhetoric/sales-labels/marketing to the contrary. Many of the PFAF plants are very introduced species to, for example, the UK from around the world, from different climates, with different vertebrate/invertebrate/fungal/climatic relationships, interactions, dependencies, etc... Most of the plants here-mentioned are being selected for being USEFUL to humans, not necessarily useful, or appropriate, to other forms of life;
      3) Importantly, these myriad plant (and gardening/agricultural/mechanised-agricultural) introductions have been arranged to occur on a large scale, in lightning-fast geological time. If we illustrate from Victorian times, and assume 70 years for a human lifespan, then in two human lifespans or less please consider how many domesticated/bred plant an animal species have been introduced, gardened, farmed, etc...and using what techniques. How has the countryside changed in those 140 years alone. What has happened to all the plants, animals, fungi, lichens, etc...? IF -and it' actually a big if - we put some trust in so-called 'Science', which, in practice rather than rhetoric, is usually highly prejudicial, filtering, selective, rote-passed-on-or-else, etc...and consider the rate of species transport under non-human conditions then, whilst all manner of rates pertain to particular individual items, we might, for example, consider decades, hundreds or thousands of years (perhaps) for plants to reclaim following glacial retreat following ice ages, or volcanic eruptions, especially in the sense of the term 'ecosystem(s)' rather than just pioneer species. The geologic rate, and number, of all these changes, has significance. Added to that Towns and Cities and Transportation Networks and Vehicles and Solar Farms and Wind Farms and Indutrial Esttes and Aquaculture/Greenhouse/Hydroponics/Aeroponic farms being Engineering PLANTed all over the place, spreading, growing, smothering, and who, amongst that lot, evidences maturity? Human children are currently presuming a playground of a planet, forests tuned into playgrounds and parks for entertainment, planetary geoengineering projects already underway, and the children are encouraged, and encourage and congratulate each other, to behave thusly - though require little encouragement...just the bait/alLures/Carrot(s)... There are myriad excuses put forward for such behaviours, myriad defeces to try to uphold, but hardly any ever evidence a mature STOP button, or a PAUSE button. Instead, it's the wacky races, school sack races, egg-and-spoon-races, bait them an idea "And they're off...!" with barely a Penelope Pitstop - excuses to the hilt...Millions, Billions, bhaving so...in a scale of weeks, months, years, a few decades...;
      4) The fossil record is highly problematic, and for many many reasons. Put your footprint in wet concrete/lime-and-sand-mortar-mix, and fling it to one side, dig the garden up and put soil all over the footprint. Alleged thousands of years later you'll make a hominid famous for discovering your 'fosslised' footprint in strata that pre-date the present era, and they'll have to re-write the electronic books, and sack the old 'experts'... One of the many reasons why ossil interpretations are at best highly risky is that presence of what seem to be fossils does not, for the must part, include presence of everything that might have also been but which was not fossilized. If I lock you in my garden and encourage you to dig, 'cos I've called myself an Archaeologist so that I could shut everone else up and get them off-site, in case they threaten my conclusions/hypotheses, then you might discover something that you choose or have been trained (or else) to interpret to be fossils, and write reports, write books, maybe even get rich and famous or have Senor Spielbergio direct exciting films following your discoveries, and you may even win the Nobel prize. But what did you miss? Beyond the garden...? Within the garden...? When? Where? If you tried to write all about the garden, accurately, thoroughly, correctly, you'll never finish writing... I've written ~30,000 A4 pages of a book, and it still only notes a portion of the topic being written about... To presume 'expert' status from reports is highly dubious at best, and to presume the conclusions to be accurate, thorough, enough to go on, especially given the raft of assumptions, prejudices, selectivity of institutions that preclude mention of disallowed/unpopular/job-risking hypotheses, extrapolations, and Copenhagen Interpretation Observer-Influences/-Filtering is more likely that not to be SEEDED/GROWN/GROUNDED upon error, and then PROPAGATING/growing that error..., in the belief that the error is true 'cos the hrd say so and tell each other so... If you sample a bucket load of seawater, amongst the entire Ocean, do you become an expert? Many presume that they do, especially when they SEED reports, that SEED minds who read then and host the Stories being passed-on.... Just because homo sapiens decide to be confident amongst themselves, in the tribe, does not mean that their confidence is well-founded... Is the Earth flat? Shoul Copernicus be hung drawn and quartered ill-treated as a heretic?;
      5) Step 1 is to sensitively, personally, get to know all of the flora, fauna, and fungi of the local and regional area, and, especially, the soils and relationships and interactions, especially by living 'in amongst' such, not as an observer per se, not as a book-learning visitor, not as a current-society townie personality better suited to cages. To presume book-knowledge is sufficient or even accurate is way off... Are all humans alike? Is one human's behaviour the same as another? So if the book or sales label/entry says, 'Blackbird', or 'Lime Tree', say, then does that mean that the behaviour and interactions are all known, in the same way that stating and entry: ' 'Homo sapiens', aka. 'Human': A Primate that wears clothes, makes things up a lot, and wants to change things 'cos it feels less inadequate less bored and less out of control that way and because it does not trust nature to do things correctly and presumes dominion over any an all forms of life and Planet(s) 'cos all the others seem to do so too and it's easier just to do what everyone ese is doin' innit, and it might be scary to instead seem to be different and not be on the bandwagon and, significantly, because most are captive and live in cages of many kinds and do not live amongst and in the wilderness, and so presume to control as if outwards from the cages to affect 'out there', thusly encaging/controlling/tagging/grafting/breeding/GMing/farming other forms of life in gardens, parks, zoos, national parks, marine parks, farms, nurseries, genetic binds, etc...'; Step 2 is to very carefully consider what are all the possible changes that could occur, and to aid the natural world to adapt in appropriate timescales to ANY such changes by incorporating appropriate behaviours, plantings, and perhaps removals, wit minimal adverse affect to other forms of life,; Step 3: Careful species selections within that mix, cohesively and maturely aided, possible to withdraw if adverse, to facilitate humans to life in ways that harm as few other forms of life and interactions as practicable and that enable, not harm, nature's ability to self-define.;
      6) The plants that are most commonly planted by, for example, readers of this forum are likely to have been grown and sold by nurseries in a different region/soil/area/country, and/or are root-grafted, and/or are 'domesticated', and/or are bred/selected and not 'unmolested' varieties. Clearly, some of the plants can be, for example, cuttings from 'wild' forms, or seeds from wild forms, or suckers from 'wild' forms, but how 'wild' the 'wild', and how appropriate? Whilst it is possible to do this, it may not always be appropriate. Some are resistance to some diseases, which has ecosystem implications. Some are weakened in other traits and, in the future, when animals/birds/plants have got used to them, they fail...and the birds/animals who have got used to them may also fail, especially if they become dependent.
      A significant risk in some areas for the UK, for example, is a PFAF plant, Gaultheria shallon 'Salal'. The seeds can be spread by birds from a railway-planted plant, and risk smothering regional moorland habitats and removing birdlife, butterflies etc. from such areas. I have plans to enable such growing BUT ALONG WITH CO-ORDINATED MANAGEMENT OF SUCH GROWTHS BY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN 'THE WILDS', because it produces useful food, can grow in 'the wild', and can be 'managed' in areas where it's growth is inappropriate, provided that it's done in a 'managed'/'cohesive' can-eradicate-if-absolutely-necessary way and, better still, if nature naturally or by organisation manages/removes such plants. But if someone just guerrilla gardens - a good concept if properly done - but without the concomitant other facets, it may need the more mature to come along and clean up the children's mess again...
      If anything goes 'in nature', we could kill most humans and thereby prevent many of the problems. But there are reasons why most people, so far, haven't done that. I say most people for a reason...
      P.S. If you (a generic 'you') find trawling through these emails to be laborious, time-consuming, and too much effort, then how can you possibly be bothered enough to behave properly in relation with the natural world, which requires far more consideration. As previously stated, the likes of Charles Darwin went to a lot of trouble, and long arduous sea voyages, to glean scraps of information - much of his apparent lifetime. Such attitudes are not, yet, apparent in those who buy PFAF-like plants online or from a local nursery ad just stick 'em in the ground, the plant version of supermarket shopping which requires little or no yearly effort to grow and nurture and learn...
      All the Best!
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2013, 9:57
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      I might add, nature is highly dynamic, does all kinds of things
      without our involvement as well as with our involvement, some
      of it quite destructive. 

      I think you are working from an assumption that everything
      is static, and whatever was going on when white man first
      got there is all that ever happened.

      Horses, for instance, are considered foreign to the new world.
      Fossils tell a different story. They went extinct here, then got
      reintroduced. There are many kinds of animals and insects
      that went extinct without our help. 

      Forests themselves change over time, having a life cycle of
      sorts that involves replacement of one kind of tree by another.

      Most of the plants being discussed here, are commonplace
      in the wild anyway. Some were here already, others escaped.

      -----Original Message----- From: Infowolf1 <Infowolf1@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 1:49 am Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      I don't rely on sources like that.

      And I don't rely on subjective delusional (aka enlightenment) feelings
      to guide me either.

      -----Original Message-----From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>Sent: Wed, Aug 7, 2013 1:15 amSubject: Fw: [pfaf] planting on public land
      Hi All,
      May I please note:
      1) Humans, despite our wishes otherwise, lie, filter, are prejudicial, conditioned, fashionable, alter things, make errors, have vested interests, act for their own self-interests, are tunnel-visioned/blinkered, only see through a glass darly, are under orders to say/write this not that and that not this, are subject to and create propaganda, or else... As an employee, whether or academia or not, you are mandated/conditioned to write what is ordered/expected by the organisation and/or funders thereof, whether that is correct, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or not - and Marketing have a far wider remit which rarely states the truth correctly. They who pay your wages can leverage you. Societal fashions alter you. Academics would rather keep their jobs/Professorships/funding than risk losing the same if they tell the unpopular truths. Those who are alleged to have 'won' political/legal/military battles are expected to control and make-up the propaganda, the narrative, which the masses, an organisations, then follow. It is thus a childhood error to presume the ability to wholly trust presumed historical sources, interpretations, reports, etc...as being true and correct,  a childhood error that presumes that surrogate parent(s) would not lie to you. It is thus inappropriate to presume solidity and correctness to supposed 'data', whether deemed to be historical or not. Data, reports, histories, can be and have been and are regularlymade-up, pretend, false, fake, frm which seed(s)/branch(es), thusly-seeded, they are then propagated/vector'd by human hosts thereafter as if truisms, which they aren't. This is key, since some of the landscape-changes, planetary changes, etc...that people are taking as being correct are not, are made-up, pretend, false, fake, for particular reasons. Trusting Colonial accounts of what allegedly happened in the Americas and the settlement thereof, and inferring, for example, plant usages from such means, is problematic. Just because someone is called an archaeologist, for example, does not mean that they are a) Honest, b) Infallible, c) Not Prejudicial, d) Not making some or all things up. The might, they might not. Just because alleged centuries of word-of-mouth or historical accounts of plant usages, such as herbal medicines - e.g. Culpepper-esque - does NOT mean that they are automatically a) Wholly Correct, b) Trustworthy, c) Passed-on Correctly, d) Understood correctly, e) Not made-up. It is thus essential, in any facet of life, let-alone considering plant types, plant usages, allegedy-scientific/-historical reports, landscape histories, etc...to be rather more discerning, lest falling in the widespread trap of merely regurgitating from a presumed-solid-baseline-ground that is in actuality shaky or false, lest you and planet earth fall... Proper research - such as might underlie Forest Gardening clmed histories, say - will rarely be so definite as to claim solidity where there is risk of error in assuming solidity;
      2) Let us say that Christine plants some plants in the natural world, in a plot that she can control for the rest of her lovely life. Have others access to that plot? Will they be inspired to nick seeds, take cuttings, and/or plant similarly elsewhere? Will the be inspired to set up organisation(s) to spread such plants, and then some, further afield? Thus, will Christine's plantings remain in a closed-system, or risk being spread, propagated, branching, seeding, reproducing, growing, infecting, vector'd, hosted, further afield? How geologically rapidly? Will EVERY person so-inspired be responsible, as Christine suggests that she would wish to be? If not, what might Christine then, unwittingly, have unleashed, as Isengard perhaps? From what trickle might flood, and how soon, how responsibly, flooding, deviating, engulfing, drowning, transforming, what/whom in its path? What first Victorian plant collector and single seed/sample? What now...? How long will Christine be around to tend/control such plantings? If she is no longer able to be around, what happens then? What boundaries, in place for a geologically short while, may perhaps come down, and then...? From what Settlers of a large continent, to a ravaged Continent with te natives culled/exterminated/enslaved? Does the person who starts a Revolution retain control of that Revolution forever and throughout, or, once the seed if planted, does it spread, infectiously, to propagate via hosts/vectors who have not earned the wisdom (perhaps) of the initiator, and Revolution is cheap to them, to the latter, who just have to pop down to the local nursery to get plants from half-away around the world obtained by a skilled world-travelling Charles Darwin. It's easy for the latter. Cheap. Requiring little or no skills or wisdom, and not earnt by them.
      The initial seed(s) may contain all that is required, like Lightning Leader(s), to do tha hard job of breaking down the iinitial hard resistance and forging the routes/paths/ways, as bamboo through concrete, but the soft growth that follows, that leaves the seed behind, is soft, trainable, tender, and has an easier time of it, as the Lightning Channel(s), once-led, once opened, are populated by (inSidious) Hoards of Excited Charged-Up Pent-Up Human Particles trying to get into the January Sales with the allegedly new idea that has got them all Worked up, who do not have the skills, the cares, the responsibility(ies), but just follow-my-leader(s)...to Thunderous applause...so Planetary Liberty dies...;
      3) Please understand that we do need to plant diversely in the natural world, BUT, that you and almost all are being deliberately seeded to run amok to follow temptations/whims irresponsibly without the concomitant discipline(s), and almost all, thus far, host, vector, channel, buy, set-up, thusly...with con-sequences...
      Many forms of life, and ecosystems, will be and are being caused upheaval, upset, inappropriate destabilisation, inSidiously in geologically lightning-fast time to Thunderous applause CLAPped on...mutual congratulations al the way, as Lord of the Flies infants in a presumed plantar playground with fun games to play with... But someone/something, somewhere, gets messed up, and someone/somewhere, if possible, has to try to more maturely Heal the situation.
      4) To state that plants and animals and people spread plants/seeds, as if that is reason enough, excuse enough, to do whatever one likes whenever one likes, is tantamount to stating that 'anything goes, so we can do what we like'. Is stating that people and plants and animals di, so dying's alright, tantamount t saying that therefore killing, murdering, militarily invading/slaughtering, is fine and dandy so we have justified doing so against all comers...? Is saying that Weapons of Mass Destruction are there, held by a very few, tantamount to saying that, therefore, it's fine and dandy to invade Iraq and kill over a million people, most of whom would have had nothing to do with it, may of them children/young-plants. Is stating that pollen can fly around the world tantamount to inferring that, therefore, planting whatever pollen'd plant we like anywhere around the world I justified, alright 'guv', "They do it so I'm alright jack and I can therefore do it too!"
      5) What might Gandalf and Galadriel and Aragorn, in the Story, havh NOT enabled by NOT taking-up the Ring, because THROUGH them, what might happen...?
      If you really want to be a GREEN (WO)MAN, then what comes pouring into/out of you and your mouth/limbs etc...perhaps to try t takeover the world, is of importance to correctly ascertain.
      Forest Gardening and plants, for example, in the right wise responsible disciplined mature hands may be one thing, but unleashed amongst and via the undisciplined 'cheap' and quicker and easier and more seduced (as noted above) populous, it is quite another, especially when the (stuck/dug-grooves) record of the populous, thus-far, is anything but disciplined and responsible an is encouraged quite the reverse... Lates ipod anyone? January Sales...planetary destruction cheap at half price, special offer..and they flood in, to Thunderous Clapping Applause at X-Mass...
      Best Wishes.

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2013, 18:32
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land
      firstly, the information about pre industrial and animal propagation
      of planting is based on solid historical contemporary and scientific

      secondly, of course all sorts of effects are made on life forms,
      BUT NOT JUST BY HUMAN ACTION, by the actions of other
      life forms. This goes on all the time with or without us.

      Most of the plants listed occur wild anyway. In my own garden,
      there is started a berry bush whether raspberry or blackberry
      I don't know yet they look the same, that was undoubtedly 

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    • trenthillsmike
      http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?29835 ... Dear friends, One of the last of the Prunus genus missing here, we are looking for is the Desert
      Message 34 of 34 , Aug 13, 2013
      • 0 Attachment

        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Gaardenier" <gaardenier@...> wrote:

        Dear friends,

        One of the last of the Prunus genus missing here, we are looking for is the Desert Peach or Prunus Andersonii. While it is true to seed, I start my search here, to add in my collection-addiction. Trades are possible also.

        Maybe someone has a reliable source for seeds?

        Some info:



        <http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where-taxon=Prunus+andersonii> &where-taxon=Prunus+andersonii



        vriendelijke groeten, Kind Regards,

        Leo Aerts, alias Gaardenier from Flanders - belgium
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