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Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

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  • Sheila joss w50
    Chris, kindly stop spouting the elitist clap trap. Sheila On 7 Aug 2013, at 09:03, Christopher McCOY wrote: Hi All, May I please
    Message 1 of 34 , Aug 7, 2013
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      Chris, kindly stop spouting the elitist clap trap.
      On 7 Aug 2013, at 09:03, Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...> wrote:

      Hi All,

      May I please note:

      1) Humans, despite our wishes otherwise, lie, filter, are prejudicial, conditioned, fashionable, alter things, make errors, have vested interests, act for their own self-interests, are tunnel-visioned/blinkered, only see through a glass darly, are under orders to say/write this not that and that not this, are subject to and create propaganda, or else... As an employee, whether or academia or not, you are mandated/conditioned to write what is ordered/expected by the organisation and/or funders thereof, whether that is correct, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or not - and Marketing have a far wider remit which rarely states the truth correctly. They who pay your wages can leverage you. Societal fashions alter you. Academics would rather keep their jobs/Professorships/funding than risk losing the same if they tell the unpopular truths. Those who are alleged to have 'won' political/legal/military battles are expected to control and make-up the
      propaganda, the narrative, which the masses, an organisations, then follow. It is thus a childhood error to presume the ability to wholly trust presumed historical sources, interpretations, reports, etc...as being true and correct, a childhood error that presumes that surrogate parent(s) would not lie to you. It is thus inappropriate to presume solidity and correctness to supposed 'data', whether deemed to be historical or not. Data, reports, histories, can be and have been and are regularlymade-up, pretend, false, fake, frm which seed(s)/branch(es), thusly-seeded, they are then propagated/vector'd by human hosts thereafter as if truisms, which they aren't. This is key, since some of the landscape-changes, planetary changes, etc...that people are taking as being correct are not, are made-up, pretend, false, fake, for particular reasons. Trusting Colonial accounts of what allegedly happened in the Americas and the settlement thereof, and inferring, for
      example, plant usages from such means, is problematic. Just because someone is called an archaeologist, for example, does not mean that they are a) Honest, b) Infallible, c) Not Prejudicial, d) Not making some or all things up. The might, they might not. Just because alleged centuries of word-of-mouth or historical accounts of plant usages, such as herbal medicines - e.g. Culpepper-esque - does NOT mean that they are automatically a) Wholly Correct, b) Trustworthy, c) Passed-on Correctly, d) Understood correctly, e) Not made-up. It is thus essential, in any facet of life, let-alone considering plant types, plant usages, allegedy-scientific/-historical reports, landscape histories, etc...to be rather more discerning, lest falling in the widespread trap of merely regurgitating from a presumed-solid-baseline-ground that is in actuality shaky or false, lest you and planet earth fall... Proper research - such as might underlie Forest Gardening clmed
      histories, say - will rarely be so definite as to claim solidity where there is risk of error in assuming solidity;

      2) Let us say that Christine plants some plants in the natural world, in a plot that she can control for the rest of her lovely life. Have others access to that plot? Will they be inspired to nick seeds, take cuttings, and/or plant similarly elsewhere? Will the be inspired to set up organisation(s) to spread such plants, and then some, further afield? Thus, will Christine's plantings remain in a closed-system, or risk being spread, propagated, branching, seeding, reproducing, growing, infecting, vector'd, hosted, further afield? How geologically rapidly? Will EVERY person so-inspired be responsible, as Christine suggests that she would wish to be? If not, what might Christine then, unwittingly, have unleashed, as Isengard perhaps? From what trickle might flood, and how soon, how responsibly, flooding, deviating, engulfing, drowning, transforming, what/whom in its path? What first Victorian plant collector and single seed/sample? What now...? How long
      will Christine be around to tend/control such plantings? If she is no longer able to be around, what happens then? What boundaries, in place for a geologically short while, may perhaps come down, and then...? From what Settlers of a large continent, to a ravaged Continent with te natives culled/exterminated/enslaved? Does the person who starts a Revolution retain control of that Revolution forever and throughout, or, once the seed if planted, does it spread, infectiously, to propagate via hosts/vectors who have not earned the wisdom (perhaps) of the initiator, and Revolution is cheap to them, to the latter, who just have to pop down to the local nursery to get plants from half-away around the world obtained by a skilled world-travelling Charles Darwin. It's easy for the latter. Cheap. Requiring little or no skills or wisdom, and not earnt by them.

      The initial seed(s) may contain all that is required, like Lightning Leader(s), to do tha hard job of breaking down the iinitial hard resistance and forging the routes/paths/ways, as bamboo through concrete, but the soft growth that follows, that leaves the seed behind, is soft, trainable, tender, and has an easier time of it, as the Lightning Channel(s), once-led, once opened, are populated by (inSidious) Hoards of Excited Charged-Up Pent-Up Human Particles trying to get into the January Sales with the allegedly new idea that has got them all Worked up, who do not have the skills, the cares, the responsibility(ies), but just follow-my-leader(s)...to Thunderous applause...so Planetary Liberty dies...;

      3) Please understand that we do need to plant diversely in the natural world, BUT, that you and almost all are being deliberately seeded to run amok to follow temptations/whims irresponsibly without the concomitant discipline(s), and almost all, thus far, host, vector, channel, buy, set-up, thusly...with con-sequences...

      Many forms of life, and ecosystems, will be and are being caused upheaval, upset, inappropriate destabilisation, inSidiously in geologically lightning-fast time to Thunderous applause CLAPped on...mutual congratulations al the way, as Lord of the Flies infants in a presumed plantar playground with fun games to play with... But someone/something, somewhere, gets messed up, and someone/somewhere, if possible, has to try to more maturely Heal the situation.

      4) To state that plants and animals and people spread plants/seeds, as if that is reason enough, excuse enough, to do whatever one likes whenever one likes, is tantamount to stating that 'anything goes, so we can do what we like'. Is stating that people and plants and animals di, so dying's alright, tantamount t saying that therefore killing, murdering, militarily invading/slaughtering, is fine and dandy so we have justified doing so against all comers...? Is saying that Weapons of Mass Destruction are there, held by a very few, tantamount to saying that, therefore, it's fine and dandy to invade Iraq and kill over a million people, most of whom would have had nothing to do with it, may of them children/young-plants. Is stating that pollen can fly around the world tantamount to inferring that, therefore, planting whatever pollen'd plant we like anywhere around the world I justified, alright 'guv', "They do it so I'm alright jack and I can therefore do it

      5) What might Gandalf and Galadriel and Aragorn, in the Story, havh NOT enabled by NOT taking-up the Ring, because THROUGH them, what might happen...?

      If you really want to be a GREEN (WO)MAN, then what comes pouring into/out of you and your mouth/limbs etc...perhaps to try t takeover the world, is of importance to correctly ascertain.

      Forest Gardening and plants, for example, in the right wise responsible disciplined mature hands may be one thing, but unleashed amongst and via the undisciplined 'cheap' and quicker and easier and more seduced (as noted above) populous, it is quite another, especially when the (stuck/dug-grooves) record of the populous, thus-far, is anything but disciplined and responsible an is encouraged quite the reverse... Lates ipod anyone? January Sales...planetary destruction cheap at half price, special offer..and they flood in, to Thunderous Clapping Applause at X-Mass...


      Best Wishes.

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2013, 18:32
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      firstly, the information about pre industrial and animal propagation
      of planting is based on solid historical contemporary and scientificsources.

      secondly, of course all sorts of effects are made on life forms,
      BUT NOT JUST BY HUMAN ACTION, by the actions of other
      life forms. This goes on all the time with or without us.

      Most of the plants listed occur wild anyway. In my own garden,
      there is started a berry bush whether raspberry or blackberry
      I don't know yet they look the same, that was undoubtedly
      the result of a bird pooping in flight after feeding on such
      bushes in a creek under a mile from here.

      That bush once grown is likely to have several impacts. It will
      occasion more caution by a visiting cat who will have to change
      which part of the fence he climbs on. Birds and other critters
      will feed on the berries. The leaves that die and fall will make
      a compost effect for some nearby flowers. Probably bees will
      get some nectar or pollen from the berry flowers.

      Untended it can just take over. Of course, I am going to be
      tending it so it doesn't get out of control.


      -----Original Message----- From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...> To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...> Sent: Tue, Aug 6, 2013 3:18 am Subject: Fw: [pfaf] planting on public land

      Hi Christine & Co.,

      Just to note briefly, please. Many people have some awareness, albeit at best second-hand (usually far further down the Chinese whispers web/chain) without personal checking (e.g. seeded with notions/ideas that thus PROPAGATE, are PROPAGATED..), that various species seem to have been planted by Human tribes, so-called natives, and of course by other 'natural' means such as animals, wind, water, etc...

      Wheat, Barley, Maize, Domesticated-Apple Orchards, Non-edible aesthetic gardens, many vegetabls, etc... having been sai to have been distributed thusly.

      From, for example, the Wheat seed being transported and transplated, what blinkered patchwork of monocultural fields with minimal hedgerows left, pesticided, herbicided, fungicided, mechanized, supermark'd, soil-sdepleted, birds and pollinators displaced r made extinct, was thus grown, propagated, to take-over so much of the landscape...and feed the aphid-like population growth of humans, who further host/seed/propagate branches of the same...? How many of said humans, most of whom have never themselves checked from first principles what they believe that they believe and advocate, defend ch behaviours against any and all assumed threats, comments, etc...an thus keep such behaviours going, fed, watered, tended, supported, and BARK as Dog Wood(s) at others they wish to keep away, beyond the BARK? So it continues...

      How many know and knew, correctly, thoroughly, caringly, and intimately, all of the forms of life, and interactions, that they would be affecting? How many, instead, just 'do it', 'did it', and nature and other forms of life had to take it on the chin, all the consequences of the blinkered, quick, easy, behaviours?

      How many, when Broad-Cast seeded with the latest ipod or computer game or flat-screen TV rush out and buy such, use such, without care for the consequences that they deem to be 'somewhere out there', something else's problem, "Nature will take care of it", as infants presuming that some surrogate parent will take care of everything, the ideas PLANTED in their mind(s), some falling in/via fertile mind(s)/ground, which they PROPAGATE...to what planetary consequences. How many truly know and correctly understand much or anything about the natural world unless at best second-hand or from TV or books, rather than living in the natural world entirely themselves?

      If such humans are seeded with whims/ideas, fashions, which they host, channel, empower, without first accruing hard-earned wisdom, responsibility, then, even if one or two people who DO evidence maturity DO plant particular plants in the (remnant) wilds after serious thorough consideration of all the likely interactions and consequences to all forms of life and being correct in knowing that doing so will not adversely affect the natural world or seed other people to behave inappropriately, then that is one thing, but what happens in practice is that someone seeds the idea of, say, permaculture, and before the Terry Pratchett responsible Truth has got it's hat on, millions are out transforming the natural world in a fraction on one homo sapiens lifespan according to the "Get with the PROGRAM(ME)" 'IM-PLANTED ideas, EPI-SOWED EPISODE(S), thusly Channelled.

      ...and pat each other on the back at how clever they are, congratulate each other, an attack or evade or BARK at those whom they deem to threaten the implanted idea(s).

      How many human beings are there, currently, IF you believe the offered data? With what population densities? With what demands?/expectations? Wih wht sensitivities/lack-of-sensitivities? With what skills to be self-reliant, and responsibly-so, in the natural world, or not? With what closeness of experience with the natural world as if they are truly part of it and amongst their kin, or instead having GROWN UP in captivity in towns, cities, and similarly, where TV or books or parks are farms are their idea of 'nature' and 'knowledge' in such regards? How easily are such humans SEEDED, 'implanted, and Wacky Races "And they're off!.."?

      Yet, by comparison, what population densities the so-called 'Native peoples'? How close with, sensitive to, observant of, and responsible with regards to the natural world such peoples? If they introduced or eradicated species, might they have done so from a, relatively-speaking, more close-with-nature awareness, experience, co-ordinated responsibility, else suffered accordingly? Could they be better trusted with Forest Gardening, and more slow introduction of such, than 'modern' humans?

      Please correctly realize that most of the ideas that you believe to be the case, and human ways of life (which are scouring PLAN(E)T Earth), have been deliberately seeded, PLANTed, Broad-CAST(e), and with what consequences...

      PFAF is idea(s)... Not all are, as yet, appropriate. Many are, many are not, here, there, then, now, not now, etc...

      Yet PFAF communiques, and plants, are being run-away-with and planted at geologically rapid rates, in non-cohesive/piecemea ways, by persons who, as yet at least, perhaps have not the closeness with the natural world to be as responsible as perhaps they ought, and by some who wish to cash-in, feel self-important as children with a new game to feel important about, but without, yet, the more GROWN up maturity to know when to stop, halt, wait, do it 'right' first time...

      Seeded Colonies in North America, and from such Seed(s) (branches) what has thereby grown...?

      All the Best.

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, 5 August 2013, 21:02
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      nature itself plants such things all the time. birds poop seeds, squirrels drop or
      bury stuff, etc. etc. so called invasive non native plants and animals sometimes have a prior history in the location and are just returning. The list of plants
      the other poster described are often wild anyway.

      If someone runs off seeding a location, a lot of seeds with be lost to animals
      and pests, and some will survive. And such pre seeding is necessary if
      foraging isn't going to lead to depletion, especially in a disaster situation.

      Did you know that in CA and probably any place that has a history of
      Indians eating acorns, that the oak tree forests are often descended from
      deliberate planting by Indians?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Christopher McCOY <chrismccoy3@...>
      To: pfaf <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: Chris <chrismccoy3@...>
      Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2013 4:40 am
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] planting on public land

      Dear All,

      Regards planting on (allegedly) Public land.

      Please don't - yet.

      I have plans to aid the UK and further afield in these regards in what might be called a cohesive yet still 'liberal' way, where far more awareness of the interactions, consequences, life-form, etc...requires to be inherent.

      Currently, 'give' someone 'seed' idea(s), and they're off like infants presuming a playground of life, self-involevd, self-important, moody, dislikign anyone risking the continuance of 'their' 'seeded/seeding game, planting... Suggest 'foraging' and the, potentially, millions, billions, of humans do so and, before you know it, depletion is the name of the game, earthquake-like unsettling upheaval and change of ecosystems the norm, which, like a table cloth waved excitedy about by well-meaning children trying (perhaps) to see what happens or to get that fly off of it, can unsettle the entire table unless done magically, as a tablecloth rapidly whipped away whilst not unsettling any of the fine fragile porcelain. Suggest monocultural forestry plantations, and they're off... Suggest tagging animals and they're off... Suggest wildlife spy cameras, and they're off... Suggest Permacultiure, and 'they're off' out of permaculture courses transforming according
      that that latest fad, using the suggested plants, bought/grafted/made-available by the fashionable nurseries, in femptosecond geological/ecosystem time, transforming yet again, whether nature wants it like that or not... Suggest town-planning, and they're off planting Towns (which grow to become cities).. Suggest industry is good, and tey;re of building Engineering PLANT(s)... Suggest colonializing the Americas and Australia, and the Natives (not just humans) forced, wrangled, mandated, to up-roo else be poisoned/pesticided/fungicided, etc...and the Stories thusly-seeded grow, and consume, transforming... Suggest 'Sustainability' and they're off marketing the unsustainable as 'sustainable'/'green'/'eco' and trying to SUSTAIN the 'stuff', the 'materialism', the 'plant breeding and GM-modifications and wild-plantings', the industries, 'good for jobs', etc...and such grow, are fed, consume, transform, whether the natural world wants it or not, is
      pleasantly affected or not...

      ...as if ecosystems didn't have enough Earth-shaking changes to deal with...that might sink many an entire populated town build on sand...

      Please don't...yet.

      There are those who read these forums who encourage, 'seed', BROAD-CAST, the masses to behave inappropriately, and watch them run amok as if they understand anything. There are those who read these forums who keep close watch on those who might spill the Giant's stalk beans... There are a very very few who DO have some comprehension of these things and some wisdom and concern, but who appreciate and worry about what happens if ideas get into and/or via the 'wrong' hands/minds...

      There is much more to mature, wise, and genuine Forest gardening, Gardening Eden, than you may know, care about, or certainly have been told. If you feel self-important, perhaps as a child with a new/'old' game to play trying to prevent others from stopping you, as a soldier mindlessly unquestioningly complicitly slaughtering in the Middle East under the notion of 'Saving Lives', to make yourself feel important or having something meaningful to do, and/or out of vested interests, then you are merely being used 'by' the 'Story(ies)'/'Idea(s)' as a host, much as the Dawkin's 'Meme(s)' re-branding of Green Man Seeded River Out of Eden past knowledge...

      Luke: "Is the Dark Side stronger?" Master Yoda: "No! Quicker, easier, more seductive..."

      Do you think the Light side would evidence the behaviours, laws, enforcements, fashions, pollutions, myopia, that abounds...? Do you think the Light side would try to undermine/usurp/make-illegal the ability of self-reliance and force everyone into total dependent, indebted, and thus leveraged, domesticated, farmed, roped-in, treadmill'd at work, put to work, harnessed and harnessing...?

      Will you truly be allowed, or lead, to do what is truly right, or just what you have been led/baited/lured/enticed to 'think' might be?

      Do you think that you are being 'led'/'lead(Pb)' by the Mad as Hatters? How toxic to minds, the Plumbed-in Lead? How does the Garden grow then? With what symptoms, diseases, pests, rot?

      We do require to plant differently on/in Nature's land...it can never be 'the public's', it can never be 'humans'' land...but please may I kindly ask, suggest, that you may yourself, and/or that you may be encouraging of/via others, to do that which is NOT appropriate, that which is myopic, fashionable, that which is peacemeal and fracturing, that which is destabilising, that which is blinkered, that which is fragmented, that which is a tiny fraction of a humanoid lifespan and as short-sighted as such, that which disregards other forms of life an things going on in favour of quickness, ease, seductive ideas.

      A few apple trees here and there may be one thing, but from the seeded trickle what Amazon may grow, consuming, transforming, undermining, eroding, feeding, spreading,...?

      Please...there I more to what is going on than what plants to buy and plant from the local fashion's garden catalogue/nursery, or what to run out and apply from the latest (permaculture?) course...

      I can but ask...

      It usually falls to the more mature to try to clean up the broken crockery/lives/tableware that the childish have as Lords of the Flies Gaia'n spead everywhere, whilst the childish try to attack/gag/heads-on-spikes the more mature who clean up after them...

      Please be very careful what Idea(s) you allow through you, from you, via you, and host/empower/disempower.

      Gandalf and Galadriel, in the stories, knew better than to be Green Man in such cases and risk allowing/nabling the Ring to act through them...and chose other... whereas the Kings, theNine, Saruman, Sméagol, Boromir, and later Frodo, did not...to the near-extinction of Middle EARTH and all The Shire(s)...

      How are BerkShire, Devonshire, Herefordshire, Buckinghamshire, LondonShire, etc...these days...?

      PFAF - What Future are you REAL-ly planting...!?

      All the Best,


      From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com; ChristPerm@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2013, 7:24
      Subject: [pfaf] planting on public land

      Someone on one of these two egroups suggested planting
      gardens in greenbelts or other public lands. My initial reaction was relevant to you having an identifiable as such
      garden that you work and claim as yours. (maybe permits
      would be available.)

      But Alex Jones has made an interesting suggestion. That
      you plant various non GMO fruit trees and I guess you
      could add the kind of veggies that can run wild and reseed,
      in such public land spaces, because they will go on and
      be of use eventually in future. To whoever. Should look
      like irregular scattered mixed growth, not like something
      planned and deliberate.

      Good idea. Just don't treat it as exclusively yours, think
      of it as aiding survival of those in the future who know
      what kind of plants to look for to eat.


    • trenthillsmike
      http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?29835 ... Dear friends, One of the last of the Prunus genus missing here, we are looking for is the Desert
      Message 34 of 34 , Aug 13, 2013
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        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Gaardenier" <gaardenier@...> wrote:

        Dear friends,

        One of the last of the Prunus genus missing here, we are looking for is the Desert Peach or Prunus Andersonii. While it is true to seed, I start my search here, to add in my collection-addiction. Trades are possible also.

        Maybe someone has a reliable source for seeds?

        Some info:



        <http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where-taxon=Prunus+andersonii> &where-taxon=Prunus+andersonii



        vriendelijke groeten, Kind Regards,

        Leo Aerts, alias Gaardenier from Flanders - belgium
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