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RE: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

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  • Elaine Sommers
    Hi John (and All) I think that there are so many view points, diets and different lifestyles that it is so difficult to get it right for everyone. Has anyone
    Message 1 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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      Hi John (and All) I think that there are so many view points, 'diets' and different lifestyles that it is so difficult to get it right for everyone.
       
      Has anyone read Victoria Boutenko's book comparing our closest cousin's (chimpanzee) diet to our present westernised diet?
      Apart from the odd monkey they catch and kill most of their animal protein comes from insects and together these make up only 1% of their diet. Half is fruit, 2 - 7% is pith, bark and seeds, and the rest a huge variety of greens all depending on the season. Jane Goodall says that they can go for months and months without consuming any animal protein and seem to have no ill effects. The key seems to be variety of the other sources of food. Not just sticking to one or two kinds of leaves etc, and of course, all raw and in their natural state.
       
      I did email her to ask how they get their B12 vitamin but I haven't had a reply as yet. I presume they need it as we do being so close to our genetic makeup. They presumably get if from the non-animal foodstuffs they eat, but I don't know which ones. Also, they chew their food much more than we do which is needed to release the nutrients in the foods, and stomach acid has to be very strong in order to process said food stuffs - between 1 - 2. This is why she suggests the raw green smoothies, because we have lost the ability (and the will in most cases) to chew our food sufficiently to get the best out of it.
       
      Regarding stomach acid, the book says that this declines with over consumption of fats and proteins which wear out the parietal cells of the stomach that secret stomach acid.
       
      There is so much more that I could quote but it would be better to read it for yourselves and make up your own minds.
       
      For me, I have been veggie for 27yrs and was vegan for 2 of them and would like to be again some day. In those years I have had a great many things happen in my life and depending on what was happening it didin't matter what I ate - I either had lots of energy and zest for life, or I put on weight and felt depressed and tired all the time. It was nothing to do with food - it was life circumstances and my mental health that made the difference. The only thing I have noticed that is significant is that when I consume cooked food, however 'healthy' I feel a bloated and tired and often nauseous more than when eating raw food, or at the very least simple processed food such as bread and cheese. I practically lived on bread and cheese for a couple of years a while back because eating large quantities of raw greens made me feel bloated and sick also. Then I discovered about green smoothies and stomach acid and now I can consume much more green stuff when it has been 'pre-chewed' for me!
       
      My philosophy is to look at nature, look at history way back, before we discovered how to make weapons and kill, and fire to cook, and see if we have changed our diets so much since then that they are affecting our health, either for good or bad. We are the only animal to cook food, and the only one to continue having milk products after weaning. If we couldn't do these it would be interesting to see the difference in our health.
       
      Blessings,
      Elaine.

       
       
       
       
       
      ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
       
      from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982





       

      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      From: wilf1946@...
      Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:11:43 +0100
      Subject: RE: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

       
      Great to see such positive thoughts - maybe there's hope for the world.

      But I come back to the point that world demand for meat and other animal stuff cannot be satisfied without intensive farming and the damage from that is just not acceptable.

      I am 65 yrs old, in very good health, loads of energy (doing outdoor physical work) and have been vegan for 20 years - maybe I'm blood type A.

      John. 


      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      From: bekki@...
      Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:46:02 -0400
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

       
      Interesting discussion. I was vegetarian 2 X in my life. The first
      time-- for 3 years-- when I was 16 and knew nothing about nutrition. I
      ended up anemic and really sick. I started eating meat again on the
      advice of my doctor.
      2nd time I was in my early 30s, my husband and I became vegetarians for
      philosophical reasons. We ate what would be considered an excellent
      diet, lots of soy anda huge variety of fresh veg, nuts etc. After 8
      years I was 35 # overweight, fatigued all of the time, battled
      depression constantly, and developing arthritis. And I was getting
      repeated respiratory colds, sinus infections etc. which would last
      weeks. Like infowolf I often craved meat.

      Then I discovered the Blood Type Diet, and started eating for my blood
      type (O positive). This included lean red meat, fish and poultry, as
      well as a specialized list of veggie, fruits, nuts etc. Interestingly,
      no dairy, no soy, no wheat, no corn. (Not all blood types should eat
      meat, or dairy--Blood type A is generally best with a vegetarian or
      mostly vegetarian diet. And many--but not all-- Blood Type As thrive on
      soy.) The man who formulated the diets says-- do organic, free range
      everything. Which is the only meat I would consider.

      ALL of my health problems reversed in 2 WEEKS of changing my diet. I was
      shocked. Arthritic pain gone.Fatigue gone. 14 years down the road I am
      healthy, much happier, and I am almost never sick, except sometimes at
      Christmas when I cheat a little and eat eggnog, whipped cream, or
      wheat.., ;) I can often make do on 6 or 7 hours of slep just fine, when
      before I would have to have 10 hours even to function, and that never
      seemed like enough.

      I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONE SIZE FITS ALL WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH AND
      NUTRITION. I have seen friends and family have similar experiences with
      eating for their individual differences. Everything from diabetes to
      Crohn's disease to cardiovascular problems to arthritis would respond
      positively to a personalized approach.

      Infowolf1@... wrote:
      >
      > there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in
      > vegetables, the
      > best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats.
      > we cannot make all the taurine we need. We are not obligate carnivores
      > like
      > cats, who can make no taurine at all. But we need meat.
      > I found out that mushrooms have the same protein amino acid profile as
      > meat, but whether they are a taurine source or not I am not sure.
      > Lactase loss depends on not using milk. Keep drinking milk all your
      > life, you don't lose it, stop drinking for years except for the occasional
      > milk shake (and lactose seems to be reduced by some processing)
      > then you will lose lactase.
      > eggs and cheese and whey are good taurine sources. we also need
      > lysine.
      > I used to be very, very dependent on meat, preferably raw or rare. I
      > joined
      > the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on Wednesdays and Fridays and
      > all of Lent and some other fasting seasons, NO ANIMAL PRODUCT AT ALL.
      > It took years for me to be able to handle Lent, and even so I take a break
      > on the weekends as per some earlier canons and practices gone against
      > by later ones.
      > Originally I would be diving desperately into RAW BEEF LIVER at
      > exactly sundown Friday, in a serious mess from just doing Wednesday
      > and Friday no meat or anything animal. Gradually since 2008 I have been
      > able to get along better, and am not a mess Friday sundown. (some
      > EO count days sundown to sundown, many go midnight to midnight.)
      > I am not even a mess at the end of Lent, having gone several weeks
      > with no animal product except on weekends. A whole week, and not
      > wracked. When I first started this, I remember sizing up a woman's
      > leg in terms of where you make the cut to take the meat, NOT WITH
      > INTENT, or desire to do so, just it crossed my mind, that muscle
      > comes off this way.....
      > anyway, everybody is not suited for a vegan life, and I would never
      > let a child go without some fresh meat and eggs or cheese. It is
      > important to development. However, meat every day, well, maybe
      > it leaves you less used to making your own taurine.
      > Like I said, we make a lot but not enough of our taurine, and it is
      > essential to nerves, eyes, heart.
      > Christine
      > In a message dated 4/25/2011 4:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      > annie@... writes:
      >
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B
      > Vitamins.
      > Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
      > wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
      > beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g.
      > chickpeas,
      > lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin
      > B12 is the
      > B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on
      > fruit
      > and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous
      > use of
      > pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find
      > B12 in
      > fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat"
      > natex (low
      > salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to
      > eat the
      > flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human
      > anatomy and
      > physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans
      > have evolved
      > to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy
      > and phys.
      > has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It
      > is a fact
      > that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme
      > present to
      > process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that
      > persists in
      > drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
      > cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of
      > diabetes in
      > children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood
      > leukaemia also
      > Crohn's disease.
      >
      > There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my
      > book at
      > the moment to help to set out well researched and sound
      > information so that
      > others can make an informed choice. I have found through working
      > with many
      > people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly
      > reasoned
      > info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer
      > specialists
      > etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every
      > piece of
      > resource available also if you are reading so called scientific
      > study papers
      > always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study
      > published
      > some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very
      > few people
      > ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
      > Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact !
      > Dairy and
      > Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion
      > dollar
      > businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising
      > With the
      > knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more
      > give my
      > children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and
      > alcohol. Why
      > give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and
      > polluted
      > (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it
      > becomes
      > carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition
      > appropriate for
      > their anatomy and physiology.
      >
      >
      > A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching
      > 60 he is a
      > lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people
      > (including
      > celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and
      > dairy diet
      > upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was
      > able to
      > retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
      > www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .
      >
      > I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and
      > they are
      > both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many
      > of their
      > schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
      > and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so
      > makes all
      > the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh
      > and as
      > nutritious as possible.
      >
      > Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
      > comment.
      > Have a good day Blessings Megan x
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      > Behalf Of Tom
      > Gibson
      > Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
      >
      > I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
      > Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for
      > children,
      > the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no
      > traditional
      > societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly
      > industrialized
      > countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
      > essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient
      > quantities
      > in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the
      > Weston A.
      > Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.
      > <http://www.westonaprice.org./>
      >
      > Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
      > traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
      > frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to
      > make a long
      > story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
      > accomplished with modern food production and processing methods
      > was bad for
      > you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
      > animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.
      >
      > Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most
      > of which
      > is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
      > non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide
      > them this
      > vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found
      > they have
      > very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
      > marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay
      > for their
      > information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain
      > everything
      > that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled
      > fact when
      > it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the
      > best and
      > most objective nutritional information comes from research on
      > chickens and
      > other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
      > multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to
      > peop le that
      > have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.
      >
      > Tom
      >
      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>, john
      > willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > What great people you all are.
      > > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the
      > planet
      > for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
      > demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
      > unsustainable.................and in any case we can get
      > everything we need
      > from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive
      > hygiene).
      > >
      >
      >


    • Tom Gibson
      John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the world. I guess
      Message 2 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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        John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized
        farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the
        world. I guess it's true that if you repeat the same lie over and again
        enough times people will start to believe it. Your belief is a lie.
        There are millions of acres of grassland that co-evolved with vast herds
        of animals that were slaughtered to deprive native Americans of their
        main food source. Grasslands are improved by "mob grazing" (look it up).
        Books and many articles in magazines by sustainable farmers have been
        written on the topic. Google "Joel Salatin", one of the stars or "Food,
        Inc." (the movie against industrialized food production). Yes we can
        feed the world, and no-we don't have to discriminate against plants,
        that are just people too that speak a different language than we do.
        Veganism and vegetarianism are TOTALLY dependent on industrialized
        agricultural systems to survive and I would NEVER deprive a child of
        essential nutrition based on a feeling that it is the right thing to do.

        Having said that I also don't participate in any way in the
        industrialized food system. I buy all my meat from pasture raised
        animals directly from a farmer or grow them myself. I only go to stores
        like Whole Foods when I want to buy junk snacks like organic corn chips
        to eat with our home made chili. Sometimes in the middle of winter we
        will purchase some organic greens wherever they are freshest and most
        nutritious looking, but we are working on that. So, yeah, if you buy all
        of your food in a store then you have some very hard choices to make.
        General rule #1, if it has a label, don't buy it. General rule #2, if it
        has a label with a list of ingredients DON'T BUY IT.

        Tom
        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
        industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
        unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
        producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
        > John.
        >
      • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
        We can start by having fewer children... and living with less technology. Many of the problems we face are caused by our dependence on fossil fuels and living
        Message 3 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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          We can start by having fewer children... and living with less
          technology. Many of the problems we face are caused by our dependence on
          fossil fuels and living beyond the planet's means.


          john willis wrote:
          >
          > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
          > industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
          > unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
          > producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
          >
          >
          > John.
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          > From: camaspermaculture@...
          > Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:36:05 +0000
          > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
          >
          >
          > Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with
          > your "facts" and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional
          > cultures-ones that aren't dependent on mechanized industrialized
          > agriculture and processing-have eliminated meat from their diet. In
          > Japan, where many of the products you mentioned originate, they do NOT
          > eat these foods in the way you mention. They are a very small part of
          > the diet, more of a flavoring than a substantial part of any meal.
          > BTW, even if all the soy produced in this country wasn't GMO, I
          > wouldn't touch the stuff because it is very difficult even with long
          > fermentation to remove all of the anti-nutrients and hormones from it.
          > The only animals that do well with soy are poultry after the soy is
          > roasted.
          > It isn't just vitamins and amino acids. The fats contained only in
          > meats also contain essential nutrition that support the hormone and
          > immune system. Naturally raised meats and fat are necessary parts of a
          > healthy diet. The list of why your regurgitation of what the
          > industrialized food processing world would like us to believe about
          > our food is wrong is too long to post. Your facts have no more
          > scientific basis than Buddhism, although, I can see that your faith in
          > soy beans is deep and heart felt. I suggest picking up Sally Fallon's
          > "Nourishing Traditions" in which she deals with this subject in depth
          > in the Introduction. You can also dig out the information
          > http://www.westonaprice.org
          > Tom
          > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Annie Sampson" <annie@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Tom,
          > >
          > > I am a nutritionist.................
          >
          >
        • Michael Porter
          The voice of reason, -- I like it-- ... From: Tom Gibson Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was definition of farm To:
          Message 4 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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            The voice of reason, -- I like it--

            --- On Sun, 5/1/11, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...> wrote:

            From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
            Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 1:36 PM

             

            John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized
            farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the
            world. I guess it's true that if you repeat the same lie over and again
            enough times people will start to believe it. Your belief is a lie.
            There are millions of acres of grassland that co-evolved with vast herds
            of animals that were slaughtered to deprive native Americans of their
            main food source. Grasslands are improved by "mob grazing" (look it up).
            Books and many articles in magazines by sustainable farmers have been
            written on the topic. Google "Joel Salatin", one of the stars or "Food,
            Inc." (the movie against industrialized food production). Yes we can
            feed the world, and no-we don't have to discriminate against plants,
            that are just people too that speak a different language than we do.
            Veganism and vegetarianism are TOTALLY dependent on industrialized
            agricultural systems to survive and I would NEVER deprive a child of
            essential nutrition based on a feeling that it is the right thing to do.

            Having said that I also don't participate in any way in the
            industrialized food system. I buy all my meat from pasture raised
            animals directly from a farmer or grow them myself. I only go to stores
            like Whole Foods when I want to buy junk snacks like organic corn chips
            to eat with our home made chili. Sometimes in the middle of winter we
            will purchase some organic greens wherever they are freshest and most
            nutritious looking, but we are working on that. So, yeah, if you buy all
            of your food in a store then you have some very hard choices to make.
            General rule #1, if it has a label, don't buy it. General rule #2, if it
            has a label with a list of ingredients DON'T BUY IT.

            Tom
            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
            industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
            unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
            producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
            > John.
            >

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