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RE: [pfaf] Re: another dimension - chenopodium rules!

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  • Annie Sampson
    Hi Inverse, Re the Chenopodium, would be interested to see what this looks like. Think that chenopodium is used as a homoeopathic worming treatment. Where
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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      Hi Inverse,
       
      Re the Chenopodium, would be interested to see what this looks like.  Think that chenopodium  is used as a homoeopathic worming treatment.  Where do you live ?
       
      have a good day
       
      Annie  UK


      From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of inverse
      Sent: 26 April 2011 15:24
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: another dimension - chenopodium rules!

       

      On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 2:41 PM, travelerinthyme <traveler.in.thyme@...> wrote:


      We don't expect them to survive the heat of summer, though. It's only April, and expected to be 98 degrees in the shade today. So, I'm picking as much of everything as possible and dehydrating it into mysterious green powders to add to beans and soups later in the summer.


      I hope they'll manage to set seed though :\

      By the way, I'm noting something strange in my place. There's this abandoned field which last year was full of chenopodiums, some of them were 10-12 feet tall and produced amazing amounts of seed. The stalks stayed in place, nobody cared to remove them.

      By now there should be tiny chenopodiums germinating all over the place, right?
      Wrong! There's none.
      Bare earth, some artemisia vulgaris (prennial) and not much more. No chenopodiums, no grasses, only dry stalks from the last season.

      I don't get it. If that's some kind of allelopathic effect, it's an incredibly strong one.
      It can't be fertility loss, not at this level, so it must be allelopathy.

      What do you think?
      Anybody?

      If I'm correct about this, before winter comes I'll have to make sure chenopodium stalks are removed or nothing will grow there next year.

      bye,
      Inverse






    • jonathantellerelsberg
      Hi Inverse, I wouldn t be so fast to conclude that the issue is allelopathy. Among other things, allelopathy shouldn t so strongly affect the seeds of plants
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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        Hi Inverse,

        I wouldn't be so fast to conclude that the issue is allelopathy. Among other things, allelopathy shouldn't so strongly affect the seeds of plants of the same species. Also, I've tried a quick online search and find no top results with information stating that chenopodiums are allelopathic.

        Are you sure that the chenopodiums in your area sprout this time of year? Perhaps the seeds are still dormant and you'll discover a chenopodium forrest in another month. Perhaps someone sprayed herbicide on the lot last autumn, so that the natural end of season cycle obscured the chemical onslaught--but the chemicals remain active enough to halt new growth this year. I'm sure there are other possibilities as well.

        Speaking of chenopodiums, I'm excited this year to be planting some Good King Henry into my garden, as part of some fruit tree guilds I'm establishing. Good King Henry, chenopodium bonus-henricus, is a perennial chenopodium, with leaves that are good for cooking ("spinach-like") and, when well fertilized, also offering "asparagus-like" spring shoots. Eric Toensmeier, in his book Perennial Vegetables, advocates for breeding work to be done with Good King Henry, as it has the potential to diversify into a number of useful perennial sub-types, from supplier of shoots and greens to a pseudo-grain source similar to quinoa (which also is a chenopodium) to a provider of broccoli-like flower stalks similar to fellow chenopodium Huauzontle.

        -Jonathan


        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, inverse <inverse@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 2:41 PM, travelerinthyme wrote:
        > >
        > > We don't expect them to survive the heat of summer, though. It's only April, and expected to be 98 degrees in the shade today. So, I'm picking as much of everything as possible and dehydrating it into mysterious green powders to add to beans and soups later in the summer. I hope they'll manage to set seed though :\
        >
        > By the way, I'm noting something strange in my place. There's this abandoned field which last year was full of chenopodiums, some of them were 10-12 feet tall and produced amazing amounts of seed. The stalks stayed in place, nobody cared to remove them.
        >
        > By now there should be tiny chenopodiums germinating all over the place, right? Wrong! There's none. Bare earth, some artemisia vulgaris (prennial) and not much more. No chenopodiums, no grasses, only dry stalks from the last season.
        >
        > I don't get it. If that's some kind of allelopathic effect, it's an incredibly strong one. It can't be fertility loss, not at this level, so it must be allelopathy.
        >
        > What do you think? Anybody?
        >
        > If I'm correct about this, before winter comes I'll have to make sure chenopodium stalks are removed or nothing will grow there next year.
        >
        > bye,
        > Inverse
      • travelerinthyme
        Mother Nature rotates her crops, so if your field had a lot of chenopodium last year, something else may grow there this year. We had a thick stand of it two
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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          Mother Nature rotates her crops, so if your field had a lot of chenopodium last year, something else may grow there this year.

          We had a thick stand of it two years in a row, but the third year the plants were crowded and spindly, then got eaten by some sort of beetle.

          This year, there were only two or three plants in that spot, but the front garden, where I'm not growing veggies because of the drought, is THICK with lambs quarters (chenopodium), so we have plenty of wild greens, even if we don't have any tomatoes.

          Italian parsley does the same thing. I rearrange the garden every season, according to where the parsley comes up. Cilantro is a native weed, and also rotates itself around the property.

          Wouldn't it be nice if tomatoes behaved this way? We do get volunteers, but this year, nothing because of the drought.

          ~Traveler in Thyme, Blanco County, TX zone 8-9
        • Steve
          Hi Inverse, Is it possible that the area could have been sprayed? Peace, Steve -- * All that is gold does not glitter,* *Not all those who wander are lost;*
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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            Hi Inverse,
             
            Is it possible that the area could have been sprayed?  
             
            Peace,
            Steve

            --
            "All that is gold does not glitter,
            Not all those who wander are lost;
            The old that is strong does not wither,
            Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
            From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
            A light from the shadows shall spring;
            Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
            The crownless again shall be king."
            ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

          • beitharmony@gmail.com
            Hi, How do you dehydrate the greens? Thanks, Joy
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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              Hi,

              How do you dehydrate the greens?

              Thanks,
              Joy
            • beitharmony@gmail.com
              Butterflies, bees, birds and other critters who would normally carry the pollen have died off leaving unfertilized plants and subsequently no regrowth. Water
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 27, 2011
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                Butterflies, bees, birds and other critters who would normally carry the
                pollen have died off leaving unfertilized plants and subsequently no
                regrowth.

                Water is only one ingredient of the equation. There are so many elements
                that are overlooked but which play an equal if not greater role in all
                of life.

                What is going on now in the world, lack of water in some places,
                overflooding in others, extremities of heat and cold all point to
                disharmony - a severity taking place in the heavens that has mirrored
                what mankind has done and now handing it all back to us as a mirror. The
                laws of the universe have been broken by man, justice has not been meted
                out on earth, so - as in all things balance must be restored - in this
                case through the channel of severity.

                Best,
                Joy
              • inverse
                ... Hi Steve, I think not: the forest of stalks is very thick and high, most chenopodium were between 2 and 3 meters high, few of them topping almost 4m
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 28, 2011
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                  On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Steve <permalove@...> wrote:
                   

                  Hi Inverse,
                   
                  Is it possible that the area could have been sprayed?


                  Hi Steve,

                  I think not: the forest of stalks is very thick and high, most chenopodium were between 2 and 3 meters high, few of them topping almost 4m (measured personally) and pratically impenetrable without leaving clear traces.
                   
                  A small part of it has been burnt down a month ago, in that part yesterday I've been observing some sprouting grass blades and some artemisia.


                • inverse
                  Hi Annie, I think chenopodium album grows fine in your country, due to your cooler climate you should be able to observe chenopodium bonus-henricus too. I live
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 28, 2011
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                    Hi Annie,

                    I think chenopodium album grows fine in your country, due to your cooler climate you should be able to observe chenopodium bonus-henricus too. I live in northern Italy , here bonus henricus grows spontaneously only in the Alps. Where I am, summer temperatures are way too high. Although I'm in zone 8, the Alps favour a climatic anomaly where summer is practically subtropical and winters are fully continental while the other 2 seasons are oceanic.
                    Regarding what chenopodium album looks like, click here: http://www.google.com/search?q=chenopodium+album&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=545

                    As for its worming usage: I wouldn't trust it too much for that. It's edible, therefore not noticeably toxic in reasonable amounts. I doubt it's ever going to kill worms.
                    I've read one report (unverified word of mouth, of course) saying heavy use of this plant could have purgative effects. I'm not willing to test it in the short run.
                    There are also scientific papers saying C. album contains unidentified principles active against itching and a large set of allelochemicals, plus the usual oxalates and oxalic acid.
                    Really, nothing else..

                    bye!
                    Inverse

                    On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Annie Sampson <annie@...> wrote:
                     
                     
                    Re the Chenopodium, would be interested to see what this looks like.  Think that chenopodium  is used as a homoeopathic worming treatment.  Where do you live ?


                  • inverse
                    On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:21 PM, jonathantellerelsberg ... Hi Jonathan, one thing I forgot to mention: around the edges of that field there are tiny
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 28, 2011
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                      On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:21 PM, jonathantellerelsberg <jelsberg@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi Inverse,

                      I wouldn't be so fast to conclude that the issue is allelopathy. Among other things, allelopathy shouldn't so strongly affect the seeds of plants of the same species. Also, I've tried a quick online search and find no top results with information stating that chenopodiums are allelopathic.



                      Hi Jonathan,

                      one thing I forgot to mention: around the edges of that field there are tiny chenopodium volunteers, probably from fallen seeds, nothing inside the field.
                      Regarding the sprouting time:
                      there are three main strains in my area:
                      - one early sprouting and early flowering one, indeed quite rare, which produces mainly brown and reticulated brown seeds
                      - one intermediate flowering strain which produces mainly black reticulated seeds and a smaller amount of brown reticulated seeds
                      - one late sprouting / late flowering strain being the vast majority of plants which produces mainly black shiny and black reticulated seeds. These plants are probably hexaploid and grow to gigantic sizes.

                      You might be right, then. Inside the forest the soil is still moist and  much cooler than outside so chenopodiums could indeed be late.
                       

                      Speaking of chenopodiums, I'm excited this year to be planting some Good King Henry into my garden, as part of some fruit tree guilds I'm establishing. Good King Henry, chenopodium bonus-henricus, is a perennial chenopodium, with leaves that are good for cooking ("spinach-like") and, when well fertilized, also offering


                      I would like to plant them too, but they wouldn't last.. I'm at least 500m below their minimum altitude here..
                       

                      "asparagus-like" spring shoots. Eric Toensmeier, in his book Perennial Vegetables, advocates for breeding work to be done with Good King Henry, as it has the potential to diversify into a number of useful perennial sub-types, from supplier of shoots and greens to a pseudo-grain source similar to quinoa (which also is a chenopodium) to a provider of broccoli-like flower stalks similar to fellow chenopodium Huauzontle.


                      I'm always in search of other perennials, so far I'm testing rumex acetosa, cichorium intybus and of course taraxacum officinale. The usual stuff so, they grow spontaneausly and can compete against grasses: that's something I like!

                      On the other hand, a few of my chenopodiums I've sown are plagued by a kind of caterpillar which actually lives *inside* the leave and eats everything between th upper and lower skin. It's not digging a gallery, the eaten part expands in every direction. Still trying to identify it.
                      For some reason, this caterpillar seems to select some plants and ignores other. I'm blessing genetic diversity..

                      Inverse

                    • travelerinthyme
                      I still believe the problem is just that having such a thick stand the year before, Mother Nature rotated the crop and grew something else. I there was no
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 28, 2011
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                        I still believe the problem is just that having such a thick stand the year before, Mother Nature rotated the crop and grew something else. I there was no other suitable place nearby for the seedlings to sprout, you may not have any this year.

                        Also, if all those plants came from one original mother plant, after so many generations they may just be too inbred.

                        It happened with our volunteer parsley and chenopodium, both. I had to start over with fresh parsley seeds after ours got weak and sparse in the back yard. We planted the new seeds in the front garden, where they went wild and crazy for about 3 years, then started to become weaker and weaker, until this drought year there are hardly any, but the chenopodium is great. I don't expect to grow it in the same place next year, though,it will be moved to the side garden for 2012.

                        ~Traveler in Thyme
                      • inverse
                        On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:32 PM, travelerinthyme
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 28, 2011
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                          On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:32 PM, travelerinthyme <traveler.in.thyme@...> wrote:
                           

                          I still believe the problem is just that having such a thick stand the year before, Mother Nature rotated the crop and grew something else. I there was no other suitable place nearby for the seedlings to sprout, you may not have any this year.

                          Also, if all those plants came from one original mother plant, after so many generations they may just be too inbred.


                          Hi Traveler,

                          inbreeding depression shouldn't affect the chenopodium genus. Its two most prominent species, C. quinoa and C. album are mostly self pollinated and only minimally wind pollinated. In addition to this, C. quinoa is always tetraploid and C. album is mostly hexaploid and tetraploid.
                          Tetraploid and hexaploid means they have 2 and 3 full replicas of the normal chromosome number (= 2n) for its species.
                          Simplifying, hexaploid plants tend to grow bigger and stronger than tretraploids and diploids because the expression of genetic defects is highly unlikely to happen due to the presence of additional DNA copies carrying normal genes which usually overcome defective ones. Thus no inbreeding depression should happen under normal circumstances.

                          The explanation then could be an exceptionally high density of roots from the previous year creating a crowded environment.. I've actually observed this on some occasions: quinoa sown near a mature quinoa plant in a pot germinated late and grew very stunted, while a seed from the same lot sown in fresh earth in a new pot grew normally.
                          I don't believe nutrients depletion is the only reason for this. The must be something in the root system telling individuals of the same species that "this place is mine".





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