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definition of "farm" (from the "Compost" thread)

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  • Steve
    Hi John, In response to your comment (copied below), I would point out that your position implies a large scale CAFO (concentrated animal feedlot operation) -
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 10 8:13 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi John,
       
      In response to your comment (copied below), I would point out that your position implies a large scale CAFO (concentrated animal feedlot operation) - which necessitates antibiotic programmes - and a large scale slaughterhouse.  Both of these, I'll freely admit, are dirty, stressful and have no business in our food chain. 
       
      I would not define a CAFO as a "farm" and therefore can not apply the same stresses to the term "farm" - until recently, farms did not feed grain to herbivores (which shouldn't eat grain) and there was no reason to confine them for any length of time. 
      Cattle were kept on perennial pasture - forbs, grasses, legumes, etc - and over wintered on hay with supplemental nutrients (kelp meal is an excellent supplement). 
      Small on-farm community slaughterhouses were the norm. 
       
      I would suggest that our definition of the term "Farm" should not include conditions applicable to large-scale animal confinement if we ever hope to see small farms succeed as viable and sustainable elements in our society.  
       
      Peace,
       
      Steve.
       

       

       

       

      Re: Composting

      Posted by: "john willis" wilf1946@...

      Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:41 pm (PDT)




      Hi Peter - I would propose that the shit from farmed animals is laced with toxins resulting from the stresses of confinement on the farm and at the slaughterhouse.

      --
      "All that is gold does not glitter,
      Not all those who wander are lost;
      The old that is strong does not wither,
      Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
      From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
      A light from the shadows shall spring;
      Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
      The crownless again shall be king."
      ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

    • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
      I really appreciate Steve s comments. I live in a rural county in southeastern Ohio. I am fortunate that this area was a mecca for back-to-the-landers dating
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 11 5:16 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I really appreciate Steve's comments.

        I live in a rural county in southeastern Ohio. I am fortunate that this
        area was a mecca for back-to-the-landers dating to the sixties and
        seventies. Subsequent generations have discovered Athens County and hve
        chosen to settle here for the diversity of its inhabitants (there is a
        state university here as well), the beauty of the landscape, and the
        community's strong interest in sustainabiity. We have a worker-owned
        bakery; a worker-owned restaurant serving almost entirely
        locally-sourced food from small family farms; several other local owned
        restaurants doing the same; and a large farmer's market which supplies
        the community with a wide variety of foods, many of them organic or
        farmed without pesticides. We have at least 4 sources for beef, at least
        4 sources for pork, several for chicken and many for eggs. Seasonally
        ducks and duck eggs are also available. We have a local honey producer
        who also brings candles to the market. And the list of vegetables and
        fruitsthat is available is endless. We even have a local herb nursery
        and several other plant and tree growers that attend.

        This could only happen because the people supported it. The market takes
        food stamps, so people on limited income do not have to do without fresh
        food, and the Donation Station, maintained by Community Food
        Initiatives, a local non-profit, takes food and money donations from
        market customers and from the farmers to supply the battered woman's
        shelter, the homeless shelter and local food banks.

        I am very proud to live in this Appalachian community that supports REAL
        farming and takes care of its own by providing REAL food, not just
        canned goods, to those leass fortunate. Let us not confuse real farming
        with agribusiness.

        I work hard for sustainability issues here because I believe in
        community and I believe in the right of everyone to have a quality life.
        We are part of nature-- we need to start acting like it. Sorry for the
        soapbox but I feel passionate about this!

        Thanks for listening,
        Bekki

        Steve wrote:
        > Hi John,
        > In response to your comment (copied below), I would point out that
        > your position implies a large scale CAFO (concentrated animal feedlot
        > operation) - which necessitates antibiotic programmes - and a large
        > scale slaughterhouse. Both of these, I'll freely admit, are dirty,
        > stressful and have no business in our food chain.
        > I would not define a CAFO as a "farm" and therefore can not apply the
        > same stresses to the term "farm" - until recently, farms did not feed
        > grain to herbivores (which shouldn't eat grain) and there was no
        > reason to confine them for any length of time.
        > Cattle were kept on perennial pasture - forbs, grasses, legumes, etc -
        > and over wintered on hay with supplemental nutrients (kelp meal is an
        > excellent supplement).
        > Small on-farm community slaughterhouses were the norm.
        > I would suggest that our definition of the term "Farm" should not
        > include conditions applicable to large-scale animal confinement if we
        > ever hope to see small farms succeed as viable and sustainable
        > elements in our society.
        > Peace,
        > Steve.
        >
        >
        > Re: Composting
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/message/5421;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMjc2MmVsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzM5MTQ3MzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQxOTQ3BG1zZ0lkAzU0MjEEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTMwMjAwNjQzNg-->
        >
        >
        > Posted by: "john willis" wilf1946@...
        > <mailto:wilf1946@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Composting>
        >
        >
        > Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:41 pm (PDT)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Peter - I would propose that the shit from farmed animals is laced
        > with toxins resulting from the stresses of confinement on the farm and
        > at the slaughterhouse.
        >
        > --
        >
        > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
        > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
        > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
        > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
        >
        > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
        > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
        > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
        > /The crownless again shall be king."/
        >
        > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
        >
        >
      • Michael Porter
        that is truly wonderful, -- thanks to both of you for those comments, -- ... From: Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT Subject: Re:
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 12 3:46 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          that is truly wonderful, -- thanks to both of you for those comments, --

          --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:

          From: Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...>
          Subject: Re: [pfaf] definition of "farm" (from the "Compost" thread)
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, April 11, 2011, 8:16 PM

          I really appreciate Steve's comments.

          I live in a rural county in southeastern Ohio. I am fortunate that this
          area was a mecca for back-to-the-landers dating to the sixties and
          seventies. Subsequent generations have discovered Athens County and hve
          chosen to settle here for the diversity of its inhabitants (there is a
          state university here as well), the beauty of the landscape, and the
          community's strong interest in sustainabiity. We have a worker-owned
          bakery; a worker-owned restaurant serving almost entirely
          locally-sourced food from small family farms; several other local owned
          restaurants doing the same; and a large farmer's market which supplies
          the community with a wide variety of foods, many of them organic or
          farmed without pesticides. We have at least 4 sources for beef, at least
          4 sources for pork, several for chicken and many for eggs. Seasonally
          ducks and duck eggs are also available. We have a local honey producer
          who also brings candles to the market. And the list of vegetables and
          fruitsthat is available is endless. We even have a local herb nursery
          and several other plant and tree growers that attend.

          This could only happen because the people supported it. The market takes
          food stamps, so people on limited income do not have to do without fresh
          food, and the Donation Station, maintained by Community Food
          Initiatives, a local non-profit, takes food and money donations from
          market customers and from the farmers to supply the battered woman's
          shelter, the homeless shelter and local food banks.

          I am very proud to live in this Appalachian community that supports REAL
          farming and takes care of its own by providing REAL food, not just
          canned goods, to those leass fortunate. Let us not confuse real farming
          with agribusiness.

          I work hard for sustainability issues here because I believe in
          community and I believe in the right of everyone to have a quality life.
          We are part of nature-- we need to start acting like it. Sorry for the
          soapbox but I feel passionate about this!

          Thanks for listening,
          Bekki

          Steve wrote:
          > Hi John,
          > In response to your comment (copied below), I would point out that
          > your position implies a large scale CAFO (concentrated animal feedlot
          > operation) - which necessitates antibiotic programmes - and a large
          > scale slaughterhouse. Both of these, I'll freely admit, are dirty,
          > stressful and have no business in our food chain.
          > I would not define a CAFO as a "farm" and therefore can not apply the
          > same stresses to the term "farm" - until recently, farms did not feed
          > grain to herbivores (which shouldn't eat grain) and there was no
          > reason to confine them for any length of time.
          > Cattle were kept on perennial pasture - forbs, grasses, legumes, etc -
          > and over wintered on hay with supplemental nutrients (kelp meal is an
          > excellent supplement).
          > Small on-farm community slaughterhouses were the norm.
          > I would suggest that our definition of the term "Farm" should not
          > include conditions applicable to large-scale animal confinement if we
          > ever hope to see small farms succeed as viable and sustainable
          > elements in our society.
          > Peace,
          > Steve.
          >
          >
          >     Re: Composting
          >     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/message/5421;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMjc2MmVsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzM5MTQ3MzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQxOTQ3BG1zZ0lkAzU0MjEEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTMwMjAwNjQzNg-->
          >
          >
          >       Posted by: "john willis" wilf1946@...
          >       <mailto:wilf1946@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Composting>
          >
          >
          >         Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:41 pm (PDT)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Peter - I would propose that the shit from farmed animals is laced
          > with toxins resulting from the stresses of confinement on the farm and
          > at the slaughterhouse.
          >
          > --
          >
          >     /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
          >     /Not all those who wander are lost;/
          >     /The old that is strong does not wither,/
          >     /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
          >
          >     /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
          >     /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
          >     /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
          >     /The crownless again shall be king."/
          >
          > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
          >
          >


          ------------------------------------

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        • john willis
          What great people you all are. The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet for real livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 13 9:40 AM
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            What great people you all are.

            The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this demand is such that the environmental damage caused is unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).


            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            From: michaels4gardens@...
            Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 03:46:18 -0700
            Subject: Re: [pfaf] definition of "farm" (from the "Compost" thread)

             
            that is truly wonderful, -- thanks to both of you for those comments, --

            --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:

            From: Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...>
            Subject: Re: [pfaf] definition of "farm" (from the "Compost" thread)
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, April 11, 2011, 8:16 PM

            I really appreciate Steve's comments.

            I live in a rural county in southeastern Ohio. I am fortunate that this
            area was a mecca for back-to-the-landers dating to the sixties and
            seventies. Subsequent generations have discovered Athens County and hve
            chosen to settle here for the diversity of its inhabitants (there is a
            state university here as well), the beauty of the landscape, and the
            community's strong interest in sustainabiity. We have a worker-owned
            bakery; a worker-owned restaurant serving almost entirely
            locally-sourced food from small family farms; several other local owned
            restaurants doing the same; and a large farmer's market which supplies
            the community with a wide variety of foods, many of them organic or
            farmed without pesticides. We have at least 4 sources for beef, at least
            4 sources for pork, several for chicken and many for eggs. Seasonally
            ducks and duck eggs are also available. We have a local honey producer
            who also brings candles to the market. And the list of vegetables and
            fruitsthat is available is endless. We even have a local herb nursery
            and several other plant and tree growers that attend.

            This could only happen because the people supported it. The market takes
            food stamps, so people on limited income do not have to do without fresh
            food, and the Donation Station, maintained by Community Food
            Initiatives, a local non-profit, takes food and money donations from
            market customers and from the farmers to supply the battered woman's
            shelter, the homeless shelter and local food banks.

            I am very proud to live in this Appalachian community that supports REAL
            farming and takes care of its own by providing REAL food, not just
            canned goods, to those leass fortunate. Let us not confuse real farming
            with agribusiness.

            I work hard for sustainability issues here because I believe in
            community and I believe in the right of everyone to have a quality life.
            We are part of nature-- we need to start acting like it. Sorry for the
            soapbox but I feel passionate about this!

            Thanks for listening,
            Bekki

            Steve wrote:
            > Hi John,
            > In response to your comment (copied below), I would point out that
            > your position implies a large scale CAFO (concentrated animal feedlot
            > operation) - which necessitates antibiotic programmes - and a large
            > scale slaughterhouse. Both of these, I'll freely admit, are dirty,
            > stressful and have no business in our food chain.
            > I would not define a CAFO as a "farm" and therefore can not apply the
            > same stresses to the term "farm" - until recently, farms did not feed
            > grain to herbivores (which shouldn't eat grain) and there was no
            > reason to confine them for any length of time.
            > Cattle were kept on perennial pasture - forbs, grasses, legumes, etc -
            > and over wintered on hay with supplemental nutrients (kelp meal is an
            > excellent supplement).
            > Small on-farm community slaughterhouses were the norm.
            > I would suggest that our definition of the term "Farm" should not
            > include conditions applicable to large-scale animal confinement if we
            > ever hope to see small farms succeed as viable and sustainable
            > elements in our society.
            > Peace,
            > Steve.
            >
            >
            >     Re: Composting
            >     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/message/5421;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMjc2MmVsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzM5MTQ3MzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQxOTQ3BG1zZ0lkAzU0MjEEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTMwMjAwNjQzNg-->
            >
            >
            >       Posted by: "john willis" wilf1946@...
            >       <mailto:wilf1946@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Composting>
            >
            >
            >         Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:41 pm (PDT)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Peter - I would propose that the shit from farmed animals is laced
            > with toxins resulting from the stresses of confinement on the farm and
            > at the slaughterhouse.
            >
            > --
            >
            >     /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
            >     /Not all those who wander are lost;/
            >     /The old that is strong does not wither,/
            >     /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
            >
            >     /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
            >     /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
            >     /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
            >     /The crownless again shall be king."/
            >
            > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
            >
            >


            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/

            <*> Your email settings:
                Individual Email | Traditional

            <*> To change settings online go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/join
                (Yahoo! ID required)

            <*> To change settings via email:
                pfaf-digest@yahoogroups.com
                pfaf-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          • Tom Gibson
            I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet. Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children, the younger
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 14 9:17 AM
            • 0 Attachment

              I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet. Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children, the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no traditional societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly industrialized countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient quantities in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the Weston A. Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.

              Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S. frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to make a long story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and accomplished with modern food production and processing methods was bad for you and that people need raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.

              Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most of which is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide them this vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found they have very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay for their information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain everything that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled fact when it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the best and most objective nutritional information comes from research on chickens and other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to people that have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.

              Tom

              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > What great people you all are.
              > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this demand is such that the environmental damage caused is unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).
              >

            • Sara Elbrai
              100% plant based diets are unhealthy and unnatural. Vegans here in California enjoy the luxury of jetting in food from around the world that is out of season
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 16 7:31 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                100% plant based diets are unhealthy and unnatural. Vegans here in California enjoy the luxury of jetting in food from around the world that is out of season locally, with bananas and avocadoes from semi tropical areas yet still want to claim their diet is "natural".

                B12 deficiency is common among long term vegans. And brain shrinkage is not something to mess around with:

                http://neuroprotectivelifestyle.com/nutritional-neuroscience/b12-deficiency-and-the-amazing-shrinking-brain-dont-let-it-happen-to-you/

                --- On Thu, 4/14/11, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...> wrote:

                From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
                Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, April 14, 2011, 12:17 PM



                I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet. Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children, the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no traditional societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly industrialized countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient quantities in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the Weston A. Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.

                Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S. frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to make a long story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and accomplished with modern food production and processing methods was bad for you and that people need raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.

                Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most of which is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide them this vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found they have very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay for their information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain everything that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled fact when it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the best and most objective nutritional information comes from research on chickens and other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to people that have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.

                Tom

                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > What great people you all are.
                > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this demand is such that the environmental damage caused is unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).
                >



              • john willis
                If what you say is true Tom (that we must have animal stuff) then there is no hope because there are too many humans on the planet for the demand to be
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 16 10:22 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  If what you say is true Tom (that we must have animal stuff) then there is no hope because there are too many humans on the planet for the demand to be satisfied without irreversible damage to our fragile ecosystems.
                  John.  


                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  From: camaspermaculture@...
                  Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:17:35 +0000
                  Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                   

                  I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet. Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children, the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no traditional societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly industrialized countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient quantities in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the Weston A. Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.

                  Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S. frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to make a long story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and accomplished with modern food production and processing methods was bad for you and that people need raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.

                  Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most of which is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide them this vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found they have very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay for their information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain everything that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled fact when it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the best and most objective nutritional information comes from research on chickens and other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to people that have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.

                  Tom
                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > What great people you all are.
                  > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this demand is such that the environmental damage caused is unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).
                  >


                • travelerinthyme
                  Technically speaking, agriculture is unnatural . I am a Texan, my native food is venison and wild greens. Vegans can be so self-righteous, veggie
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 17 7:12 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Technically speaking, agriculture is "unnatural". I am a Texan, my native food is venison and wild greens.

                    Vegans can be so self-righteous, "veggie fundamentalists". I'm sorry, but when was the last time you went hunter-gathering beside up and down the aisle of a store?

                    It's wonderful you care about the planet so much, but don't get all religious about it, please, we have enough religious conflict going on in the world.

                    Living with pure vegetarians made me sleepy and fat, like a cow. We don't eat very much meat, but if I didn't eat the deer in my garden, I wouldn't get any veggies, either, because there would be too many deer. We eat cows and chickens and pigs and goats, too. And dairy...I don't want a life without ice cream!

                    Someone asked me how I could eat an animal when I knew it personally, and I answered how can you eat someone you don't know where he's been or what he's been eating?

                    ~Traveler in Thyme
                    Blanco County, Texas, zone 8-9
                  • Gail Lloyd
                    Well said. -=Gail ________________________________ From: travelerinthyme To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, April 17, 2011
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 17 8:06 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well said.
                      -=Gail


                      From: travelerinthyme <traveler.in.thyme@...>
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, April 17, 2011 9:12:07 AM
                      Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                       

                      Technically speaking, agriculture is "unnatural". I am a Texan, my native food is venison and wild greens.

                      Vegans can be so self-righteous, "veggie fundamentalists". I'm sorry, but when was the last time you went hunter-gathering beside up and down the aisle of a store?

                      It's wonderful you care about the planet so much, but don't get all religious about it, please, we have enough religious conflict going on in the world.

                      Living with pure vegetarians made me sleepy and fat, like a cow. We don't eat very much meat, but if I didn't eat the deer in my garden, I wouldn't get any veggies, either, because there would be too many deer. We eat cows and chickens and pigs and goats, too. And dairy...I don't want a life without ice cream!

                      Someone asked me how I could eat an animal when I knew it personally, and I answered how can you eat someone you don't know where he's been or what he's been eating?

                      ~Traveler in Thyme
                      Blanco County, Texas, zone 8-9

                    • Warron Van Riet
                      Hi Gentle People, There is a place for everyone! Evolution has taught us this. Plants in certain micro climate niches will adapt to their surroundings with
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 18 5:25 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Gentle People,

                        There is a place for everyone! Evolution has taught us this. Plants in certain micro climate niches will adapt to their surroundings with wonderful consequences... Epiphytes, carnivorous plants, swamp trees, fire prone grassland plants to name but a few. The same applies to us humans. We are a result of our surroundings and as our surroundings change we will have to adapt aswell with all the wonderful consequences thereof.

                        We also tend to judge the world in which we live in the terms of our lifetime (+~ 75) years and it is a theme I keep comming across in past posts on this subject. I'd rather take a broader perspective of what's going on around us. Us humans evolve at a slower rate than animal and plant species and where we will end up and what we will be eating in the future is anyones guess. Who knows there... might end up being 2 races of humans down the road, one vegetarian the other not. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone has their own choice and there is no right way. If there are countries where people only eat vegetables then good for them, aswell as for those that only eat meat. Let diversity rule.... Monoculture in any type or form is more dangerous for the planet's and our wellbeing that what we eat, where we eat and how we eat. If we lose diversity then we lose avenues of possibilities to where we as humans can adapt and evolve to, which in the
                        long run can be down to whether as a species we go extinct or not.

                        Our arrogance as to the idea that we know what is best for the planet and eachother is blinding us to the obvious. We, like our plant and animal families need time and diversity to adapt, and that evolution is a constant process, hence there is no single correct way. Humans are still evolving and will continue to evolve and this can be seen through the 100000 year looking glass and not in our paltry 70years of existance.

                        If one thinks they have found the correct way to live on this planet in harmony then good for them but remember this only applies to them and no one else. People have different work, different ethics and different viewpoints and this will lead them to live life as they see fit. What is true for one need not be true for another. Our true crime to eachother is when we try to conform others to our way of life and thinking and no matter how wonderful and beautiful one's philosophy is... it is just one viewpoint and one philosophy and a world of just one is horribly boring.

                        For myself I value commonsense, diversity, flexibilty, balance and the belief that deep within each of us we know what is right.

                        Respecfully and Sincerely,

                        Warron van Riet
                      • Tom Gibson
                        John, I assure you in the strongest terms possible that this is complete BS. If you look at the agricultural practices and principles that Joel Salatin uses,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 18 8:17 AM
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                          John, I assure you in the strongest terms possible that this is complete BS. If you look at the agricultural practices and principles that Joel Salatin uses, mimicking the millions of bison that used to traverse our Great Plains on his 120 acre farm, we couldn't make a dent in the animal population if it was properly managed. Land gets more fertile and the ecosystem more diverse under these practices. People that are addicted to their supermarket have a limited future. Our food system will only work and this country's health return only if we are much more involved in a personal way with our food systems.

                          This is a really good discussion for this group because when we look at plants for a future we should be working out how to make our environment more complex and capable of supporting widely diverse groups of plants, not the monoculture agriculture systems that dominate today. Check out this video on mob grazing compared with fallow land. http://bit.ly/dIfiks

                          Tom

                          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > If what you say is true Tom (that we must have animal stuff) then there is no hope because there are too many humans on the planet for the demand to be satisfied without irreversible damage to our fragile ecosystems.John.
                          >
                          > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: camaspermaculture@...
                          > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:17:35 +0000
                          > Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                        • Michael Porter
                          Thank you, -- Warron ... From: Warron Van Riet Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was definition of farm To:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 19 3:54 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you, -- Warron

                            --- On Mon, 4/18/11, Warron Van Riet <pinigardens@...> wrote:

                            From: Warron Van Riet <pinigardens@...>
                            Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                            To: "pfaf@yahoogroups.com" <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Monday, April 18, 2011, 8:25 AM

                             
                            Hi Gentle People,

                            There is a place for everyone! Evolution has taught us this. Plants in certain micro climate niches will adapt to their surroundings with wonderful consequences... Epiphytes, carnivorous plants, swamp trees, fire prone grassland plants to name but a few. The same applies to us humans. We are a result of our surroundings and as our surroundings change we will have to adapt aswell with all the wonderful consequences thereof.

                            We also tend to judge the world in which we live in the terms of our lifetime (+~ 75) years and it is a theme I keep comming across in past posts on this subject. I'd rather take a broader perspective of what's going on around us. Us humans evolve at a slower rate than animal and plant species and where we will end up and what we will be eating in the future is anyones guess. Who knows there... might end up being 2 races of humans down the road, one vegetarian the other not. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone has their own choice and there is no right way. If there are countries where people only eat vegetables then good for them, aswell as for those that only eat meat. Let diversity rule.... Monoculture in any type or form is more dangerous for the planet's and our wellbeing that what we eat, where we eat and how we eat. If we lose diversity then we lose avenues of possibilities to where we as humans can adapt and evolve to, which in the
                            long run can be down to whether as a species we go extinct or not.

                            Our arrogance as to the idea that we know what is best for the planet and eachother is blinding us to the obvious. We, like our plant and animal families need time and diversity to adapt, and that evolution is a constant process, hence there is no single correct way. Humans are still evolving and will continue to evolve and this can be seen through the 100000 year looking glass and not in our paltry 70years of existance.

                            If one thinks they have found the correct way to live on this planet in harmony then good for them but remember this only applies to them and no one else. People have different work, different ethics and different viewpoints and this will lead them to live life as they see fit. What is true for one need not be true for another. Our true crime to eachother is when we try to conform others to our way of life and thinking and no matter how wonderful and beautiful one's philosophy is... it is just one viewpoint and one philosophy and a world of just one is horribly boring.

                            For myself I value commonsense, diversity, flexibilty, balance and the belief that deep within each of us we know what is right.

                            Respecfully and Sincerely,

                            Warron van Riet

                          • Annie Sampson
                            Tom, I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B Vitamins. Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as wholegrains,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 25 4:23 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Tom,

                              I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B Vitamins.
                              Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
                              wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
                              beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g. chickpeas,
                              lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin B12 is the
                              B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on fruit
                              and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous use of
                              pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find B12 in
                              fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat" natex (low
                              salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to eat the
                              flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human anatomy and
                              physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans have evolved
                              to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy and phys.
                              has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It is a fact
                              that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme present to
                              process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that persists in
                              drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
                              cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of diabetes in
                              children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood leukaemia also
                              Crohn's disease.

                              There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my book at
                              the moment to help to set out well researched and sound information so that
                              others can make an informed choice. I have found through working with many
                              people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly reasoned
                              info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer specialists
                              etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every piece of
                              resource available also if you are reading so called scientific study papers
                              always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study published
                              some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very few people
                              ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
                              Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact ! Dairy and
                              Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion dollar
                              businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising With the
                              knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more give my
                              children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and alcohol. Why
                              give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and polluted
                              (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it becomes
                              carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition appropriate for
                              their anatomy and physiology.


                              A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching 60 he is a
                              lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people (including
                              celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and dairy diet
                              upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was able to
                              retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
                              www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .

                              I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and they are
                              both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many of their
                              schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
                              and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so makes all
                              the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh and as
                              nutritious as possible.

                              Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
                              comment.
                              Have a good day Blessings Megan x







                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom
                              Gibson
                              Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"



                              I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
                              Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children,
                              the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no traditional
                              societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly industrialized
                              countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
                              essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient quantities
                              in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the Weston A.
                              Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org

                              Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
                              traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
                              frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to make a long
                              story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
                              accomplished with modern food production and processing methods was bad for
                              you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
                              animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.

                              Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most of which
                              is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
                              non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide them this
                              vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found they have
                              very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
                              marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay for their
                              information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain everything
                              that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled fact when
                              it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the best and
                              most objective nutritional information comes from research on chickens and
                              other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
                              multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to peop le that
                              have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.


                              Tom

                              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > What great people you all are.
                              > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet
                              for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
                              demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
                              unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need
                              from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).
                              >
                            • Infowolf1@aol.com
                              there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in vegetables, the best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats. we cannot make all the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 25 4:15 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in vegetables, the
                                best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats.
                                 
                                we cannot make all the taurine we need. We are not obligate carnivores like
                                cats, who can make no taurine at all. But we need meat.
                                 
                                I found out that mushrooms have the same protein amino acid profile as
                                meat, but whether they are a taurine source or not I am not sure.
                                 
                                Lactase loss depends on not using milk. Keep drinking milk all your
                                life, you don't lose it, stop drinking for years except for the occasional
                                milk shake (and lactose seems to be reduced by some processing)
                                then you will lose lactase.
                                 
                                eggs and cheese and whey are good taurine sources. we also need
                                lysine.
                                 
                                I used to be very, very dependent on meat, preferably raw or rare. I joined
                                the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on Wednesdays and Fridays and
                                all of Lent and some other fasting seasons, NO ANIMAL PRODUCT AT ALL.
                                 
                                It took years for me to be able to handle Lent, and even so I take a break
                                on the weekends as per some earlier canons and practices gone against
                                by later ones.
                                 
                                Originally I would be diving desperately into RAW BEEF LIVER at
                                exactly sundown Friday, in a serious mess from just doing Wednesday
                                and Friday no meat or anything animal. Gradually since 2008 I have been
                                able to get along better, and am not a mess Friday sundown. (some
                                EO count days sundown to sundown, many go midnight to midnight.)
                                 
                                I am not even a mess at the end of Lent, having gone several weeks
                                with no animal product except on weekends. A whole week, and not
                                wracked. When I first started this, I remember sizing up a woman's
                                leg in terms of where you make the cut to take the meat, NOT WITH
                                INTENT, or desire to do so, just it crossed my mind, that muscle
                                comes off this way.....
                                 
                                anyway, everybody is not suited for a vegan life, and I would never
                                let a child go without some fresh meat and eggs or cheese. It is
                                important to development. However, meat every day, well, maybe
                                it leaves you less used to making your own taurine.
                                 
                                Like I said, we make a lot but not enough of our taurine, and it is
                                essential to nerves, eyes, heart.
                                 
                                Christine
                                 
                                In a message dated 4/25/2011 4:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, annie@... writes:
                                 


                                Tom,

                                I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B Vitamins.
                                Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
                                wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
                                beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g. chickpeas,
                                lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin B12 is the
                                B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on fruit
                                and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous use of
                                pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find B12 in
                                fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat" natex (low
                                salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to eat the
                                flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human anatomy and
                                physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans have evolved
                                to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy and phys.
                                has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It is a fact
                                that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme present to
                                process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that persists in
                                drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
                                cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of diabetes in
                                children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood leukaemia also
                                Crohn's disease.

                                There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my book at
                                the moment to help to set out well researched and sound information so that
                                others can make an informed choice. I have found through working with many
                                people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly reasoned
                                info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer specialists
                                etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every piece of
                                resource available also if you are reading so called scientific study papers
                                always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study published
                                some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very few people
                                ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
                                Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact ! Dairy and
                                Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion dollar
                                businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising With the
                                knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more give my
                                children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and alcohol. Why
                                give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and polluted
                                (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it becomes
                                carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition appropriate for
                                their anatomy and physiology.


                                A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching 60 he is a
                                lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people (including
                                celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and dairy diet
                                upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was able to
                                retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
                                www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .

                                I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and they are
                                both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many of their
                                schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
                                and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so makes all
                                the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh and as
                                nutritious as possible.

                                Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
                                comment.
                                Have a good day Blessings Megan x

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom
                                Gibson
                                Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
                                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
                                Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for children,
                                the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no traditional
                                societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly industrialized
                                countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
                                essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient quantities
                                in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the Weston A.
                                Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.

                                Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
                                traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
                                frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to make a long
                                story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
                                accomplished with modern food production and processing methods was bad for
                                you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
                                animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.

                                Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most of which
                                is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
                                non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide them this
                                vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found they have
                                very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
                                marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay for their
                                information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain everything
                                that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled fact when
                                it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the best and
                                most objective nutritional information comes from research on chickens and
                                other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
                                multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to peop le that
                                have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.

                                Tom

                                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > What great people you all are.
                                > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the planet
                                for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
                                demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
                                unsustainable.................and in any case we can get everything we need
                                from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive hygiene).
                                >

                              • Kate
                                Hi all, Just had to stick my nose in! This is a highly emotive issue with entrenched views either side. I am Vegan and have become so partly for many ethical
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 26 3:14 AM
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                                  Hi all,

                                  Just had to stick my nose in! This is a highly emotive issue with entrenched
                                  views either side.
                                  I am Vegan and have become so partly for many ethical reasons but also
                                  because I have found animal protein/fat inflammatory.

                                  I have psoriatic arthritis and have regular blood tests. If I have eaten
                                  something that disagrees with me my joints let me know...ie I can't walk,
                                  but also it is obvious in the blood results.

                                  After I noticed that some foods seemed to disagree with me, my rheumatoid
                                  nurse encouraged me to find out which foods triggered attack by slowly
                                  bringing back food types and monitoring my joints.

                                  I too try and keep up to date on research...every so often in New Scientist
                                  for example there is something that vindicates my diet. i.e;

                                  'Eat Less, Live Longer?' Laura Cassidy 29th May 2010.New Scientist
                                  This article contains very favourable comments on veganism that has not been
                                  funded by large multinationals!

                                  There is still a huge amount to learn. Personally I find that meat, cheese,
                                  eggs etc are not necessary for a healthy life although plenty of people seam
                                  to think so. Growing and cooking my own food is a joy. Knowing that I am
                                  promoting good health for my family is also a joy.

                                  Best wishes and good health to all
                                  Kate
                                • Tom Gibson
                                  Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with your facts and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional cultures-ones that
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 26 9:36 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with your "facts" and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional cultures-ones that aren't dependent on mechanized industrialized agriculture and processing-have eliminated meat from their diet. In Japan, where many of the products you mentioned originate, they do NOT eat these foods in the way you mention. They are a very small part of the diet, more of a flavoring than a substantial part of any meal. BTW, even if all the soy produced in this country wasn't GMO, I wouldn't touch the stuff because it is very difficult even with long fermentation to remove all of the anti-nutrients and hormones from it. The only animals that do well with soy are poultry after the soy is roasted.

                                    It isn't just vitamins and amino acids. The fats contained only in meats also contain essential nutrition that support the hormone and immune system. Naturally raised meats and fat are necessary parts of a healthy diet. The list of why your regurgitation of what the industrialized food processing world would like us to believe about our food is wrong is too long to post. Your facts have no more scientific basis than Buddhism, although, I can see that your faith in soy beans is deep and heart felt. I suggest picking up Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions" in which she deals with this subject in depth in the Introduction. You can also dig out the information http://www.westonaprice.org.

                                    Tom

                                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Annie Sampson" <annie@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Tom,
                                    >
                                    > I am a nutritionist.................

                                  • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                    Interesting discussion. I was vegetarian 2 X in my life. The first time-- for 3 years-- when I was 16 and knew nothing about nutrition. I ended up anemic and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 26 10:46 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Interesting discussion. I was vegetarian 2 X in my life. The first
                                      time-- for 3 years-- when I was 16 and knew nothing about nutrition. I
                                      ended up anemic and really sick. I started eating meat again on the
                                      advice of my doctor.
                                      2nd time I was in my early 30s, my husband and I became vegetarians for
                                      philosophical reasons. We ate what would be considered an excellent
                                      diet, lots of soy anda huge variety of fresh veg, nuts etc. After 8
                                      years I was 35 # overweight, fatigued all of the time, battled
                                      depression constantly, and developing arthritis. And I was getting
                                      repeated respiratory colds, sinus infections etc. which would last
                                      weeks. Like infowolf I often craved meat.

                                      Then I discovered the Blood Type Diet, and started eating for my blood
                                      type (O positive). This included lean red meat, fish and poultry, as
                                      well as a specialized list of veggie, fruits, nuts etc. Interestingly,
                                      no dairy, no soy, no wheat, no corn. (Not all blood types should eat
                                      meat, or dairy--Blood type A is generally best with a vegetarian or
                                      mostly vegetarian diet. And many--but not all-- Blood Type As thrive on
                                      soy.) The man who formulated the diets says-- do organic, free range
                                      everything. Which is the only meat I would consider.

                                      ALL of my health problems reversed in 2 WEEKS of changing my diet. I was
                                      shocked. Arthritic pain gone.Fatigue gone. 14 years down the road I am
                                      healthy, much happier, and I am almost never sick, except sometimes at
                                      Christmas when I cheat a little and eat eggnog, whipped cream, or
                                      wheat.., ;) I can often make do on 6 or 7 hours of slep just fine, when
                                      before I would have to have 10 hours even to function, and that never
                                      seemed like enough.

                                      I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONE SIZE FITS ALL WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH AND
                                      NUTRITION. I have seen friends and family have similar experiences with
                                      eating for their individual differences. Everything from diabetes to
                                      Crohn's disease to cardiovascular problems to arthritis would respond
                                      positively to a personalized approach.


                                      Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in
                                      > vegetables, the
                                      > best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats.
                                      > we cannot make all the taurine we need. We are not obligate carnivores
                                      > like
                                      > cats, who can make no taurine at all. But we need meat.
                                      > I found out that mushrooms have the same protein amino acid profile as
                                      > meat, but whether they are a taurine source or not I am not sure.
                                      > Lactase loss depends on not using milk. Keep drinking milk all your
                                      > life, you don't lose it, stop drinking for years except for the occasional
                                      > milk shake (and lactose seems to be reduced by some processing)
                                      > then you will lose lactase.
                                      > eggs and cheese and whey are good taurine sources. we also need
                                      > lysine.
                                      > I used to be very, very dependent on meat, preferably raw or rare. I
                                      > joined
                                      > the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on Wednesdays and Fridays and
                                      > all of Lent and some other fasting seasons, NO ANIMAL PRODUCT AT ALL.
                                      > It took years for me to be able to handle Lent, and even so I take a break
                                      > on the weekends as per some earlier canons and practices gone against
                                      > by later ones.
                                      > Originally I would be diving desperately into RAW BEEF LIVER at
                                      > exactly sundown Friday, in a serious mess from just doing Wednesday
                                      > and Friday no meat or anything animal. Gradually since 2008 I have been
                                      > able to get along better, and am not a mess Friday sundown. (some
                                      > EO count days sundown to sundown, many go midnight to midnight.)
                                      > I am not even a mess at the end of Lent, having gone several weeks
                                      > with no animal product except on weekends. A whole week, and not
                                      > wracked. When I first started this, I remember sizing up a woman's
                                      > leg in terms of where you make the cut to take the meat, NOT WITH
                                      > INTENT, or desire to do so, just it crossed my mind, that muscle
                                      > comes off this way.....
                                      > anyway, everybody is not suited for a vegan life, and I would never
                                      > let a child go without some fresh meat and eggs or cheese. It is
                                      > important to development. However, meat every day, well, maybe
                                      > it leaves you less used to making your own taurine.
                                      > Like I said, we make a lot but not enough of our taurine, and it is
                                      > essential to nerves, eyes, heart.
                                      > Christine
                                      > In a message dated 4/25/2011 4:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                      > annie@... writes:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Tom,
                                      >
                                      > I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B
                                      > Vitamins.
                                      > Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
                                      > wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
                                      > beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g.
                                      > chickpeas,
                                      > lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin
                                      > B12 is the
                                      > B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on
                                      > fruit
                                      > and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous
                                      > use of
                                      > pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find
                                      > B12 in
                                      > fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat"
                                      > natex (low
                                      > salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to
                                      > eat the
                                      > flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human
                                      > anatomy and
                                      > physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans
                                      > have evolved
                                      > to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy
                                      > and phys.
                                      > has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It
                                      > is a fact
                                      > that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme
                                      > present to
                                      > process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that
                                      > persists in
                                      > drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
                                      > cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of
                                      > diabetes in
                                      > children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood
                                      > leukaemia also
                                      > Crohn's disease.
                                      >
                                      > There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my
                                      > book at
                                      > the moment to help to set out well researched and sound
                                      > information so that
                                      > others can make an informed choice. I have found through working
                                      > with many
                                      > people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly
                                      > reasoned
                                      > info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer
                                      > specialists
                                      > etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every
                                      > piece of
                                      > resource available also if you are reading so called scientific
                                      > study papers
                                      > always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study
                                      > published
                                      > some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very
                                      > few people
                                      > ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
                                      > Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact !
                                      > Dairy and
                                      > Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion
                                      > dollar
                                      > businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising
                                      > With the
                                      > knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more
                                      > give my
                                      > children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and
                                      > alcohol. Why
                                      > give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and
                                      > polluted
                                      > (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it
                                      > becomes
                                      > carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition
                                      > appropriate for
                                      > their anatomy and physiology.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching
                                      > 60 he is a
                                      > lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people
                                      > (including
                                      > celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and
                                      > dairy diet
                                      > upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was
                                      > able to
                                      > retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
                                      > www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .
                                      >
                                      > I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and
                                      > they are
                                      > both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many
                                      > of their
                                      > schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
                                      > and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so
                                      > makes all
                                      > the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh
                                      > and as
                                      > nutritious as possible.
                                      >
                                      > Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
                                      > comment.
                                      > Have a good day Blessings Megan x
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                      > Behalf Of Tom
                                      > Gibson
                                      > Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
                                      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                                      >
                                      > I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
                                      > Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for
                                      > children,
                                      > the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no
                                      > traditional
                                      > societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly
                                      > industrialized
                                      > countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
                                      > essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient
                                      > quantities
                                      > in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the
                                      > Weston A.
                                      > Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org
                                      > <http://www.westonaprice.org/>
                                      >
                                      > Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
                                      > traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
                                      > frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to
                                      > make a long
                                      > story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
                                      > accomplished with modern food production and processing methods
                                      > was bad for
                                      > you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
                                      > animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.
                                      >
                                      > Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most
                                      > of which
                                      > is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
                                      > non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide
                                      > them this
                                      > vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found
                                      > they have
                                      > very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
                                      > marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay
                                      > for their
                                      > information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain
                                      > everything
                                      > that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled
                                      > fact when
                                      > it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the
                                      > best and
                                      > most objective nutritional information comes from research on
                                      > chickens and
                                      > other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
                                      > multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to
                                      > peop le that
                                      > have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.
                                      >
                                      > Tom
                                      >
                                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>, john
                                      > willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > What great people you all are.
                                      > > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the
                                      > planet
                                      > for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
                                      > demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
                                      > unsustainable.................and in any case we can get
                                      > everything we need
                                      > from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive
                                      > hygiene).
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • travelerinthyme
                                      I am type O blood, also. Having tried a very scientifically balanced vegetarian diet for several years, I found it made me slow and sleepy (too many Carbs, I
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 27 6:55 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I am type O blood, also. Having tried a very scientifically balanced vegetarian diet for several years, I found it made me slow and sleepy (too many Carbs, I suppose).

                                        I am a Texan, my native food is cow and venison. My husband comes from Cajun country, he'll eat anything!

                                        Chicken and soybeans give me gas. Sugar hurts. I've become dairy intolerant past menopause, though I still eat a bit of cheez and yogurt. Eggs and ground beef are my principle protein sources, along with salmon from a can, and a lot of pinto beans. Beans'n'greens with chenopodium and herbs, with brown rice and cheez, good cheap survival food, but after a few days, I crave MEAT.

                                        In the interest of "eating local" we do a lot of Tex-Mex, though I've read that there is no more non-GMO corn in America. Sigh. No white flour, ever. Make my own multigrain bread, but that just makes me eat too much butter <LOL>. Oatmeal every morning keeps me regular, and if I don't eat something green every day, I get really sad and arthritic.

                                        That TV commercial that says "Depression Hurts (take our pill)", I always laugh and say "Pain is depressing!" My cure for depression is EAT PEACHES. Fresh, canned, or dried, peaches and apricots make me HAPPY. I wonder why?

                                        Yoga and wild greens saved my life, and the garden saves my sanity.

                                        ~Traveler in Thyme, zone 8-9
                                      • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                        Really important. http://www.savenaturalhealth.eu/
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 27 9:36 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                        • john willis
                                          Great to see such positive thoughts - maybe there s hope for the world. But I come back to the point that world demand for meat and other animal stuff cannot
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 30 9:11 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Great to see such positive thoughts - maybe there's hope for the world.

                                            But I come back to the point that world demand for meat and other animal stuff cannot be satisfied without intensive farming and the damage from that is just not acceptable.

                                            I am 65 yrs old, in very good health, loads of energy (doing outdoor physical work) and have been vegan for 20 years - maybe I'm blood type A.

                                            John. 


                                            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: bekki@...
                                            Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:46:02 -0400
                                            Subject: Re: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                             
                                            Interesting discussion. I was vegetarian 2 X in my life. The first
                                            time-- for 3 years-- when I was 16 and knew nothing about nutrition. I
                                            ended up anemic and really sick. I started eating meat again on the
                                            advice of my doctor.
                                            2nd time I was in my early 30s, my husband and I became vegetarians for
                                            philosophical reasons. We ate what would be considered an excellent
                                            diet, lots of soy anda huge variety of fresh veg, nuts etc. After 8
                                            years I was 35 # overweight, fatigued all of the time, battled
                                            depression constantly, and developing arthritis. And I was getting
                                            repeated respiratory colds, sinus infections etc. which would last
                                            weeks. Like infowolf I often craved meat.

                                            Then I discovered the Blood Type Diet, and started eating for my blood
                                            type (O positive). This included lean red meat, fish and poultry, as
                                            well as a specialized list of veggie, fruits, nuts etc. Interestingly,
                                            no dairy, no soy, no wheat, no corn. (Not all blood types should eat
                                            meat, or dairy--Blood type A is generally best with a vegetarian or
                                            mostly vegetarian diet. And many--but not all-- Blood Type As thrive on
                                            soy.) The man who formulated the diets says-- do organic, free range
                                            everything. Which is the only meat I would consider.

                                            ALL of my health problems reversed in 2 WEEKS of changing my diet. I was
                                            shocked. Arthritic pain gone.Fatigue gone. 14 years down the road I am
                                            healthy, much happier, and I am almost never sick, except sometimes at
                                            Christmas when I cheat a little and eat eggnog, whipped cream, or
                                            wheat.., ;) I can often make do on 6 or 7 hours of slep just fine, when
                                            before I would have to have 10 hours even to function, and that never
                                            seemed like enough.

                                            I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONE SIZE FITS ALL WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH AND
                                            NUTRITION. I have seen friends and family have similar experiences with
                                            eating for their individual differences. Everything from diabetes to
                                            Crohn's disease to cardiovascular problems to arthritis would respond
                                            positively to a personalized approach.

                                            Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in
                                            > vegetables, the
                                            > best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats.
                                            > we cannot make all the taurine we need. We are not obligate carnivores
                                            > like
                                            > cats, who can make no taurine at all. But we need meat.
                                            > I found out that mushrooms have the same protein amino acid profile as
                                            > meat, but whether they are a taurine source or not I am not sure.
                                            > Lactase loss depends on not using milk. Keep drinking milk all your
                                            > life, you don't lose it, stop drinking for years except for the occasional
                                            > milk shake (and lactose seems to be reduced by some processing)
                                            > then you will lose lactase.
                                            > eggs and cheese and whey are good taurine sources. we also need
                                            > lysine.
                                            > I used to be very, very dependent on meat, preferably raw or rare. I
                                            > joined
                                            > the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on Wednesdays and Fridays and
                                            > all of Lent and some other fasting seasons, NO ANIMAL PRODUCT AT ALL.
                                            > It took years for me to be able to handle Lent, and even so I take a break
                                            > on the weekends as per some earlier canons and practices gone against
                                            > by later ones.
                                            > Originally I would be diving desperately into RAW BEEF LIVER at
                                            > exactly sundown Friday, in a serious mess from just doing Wednesday
                                            > and Friday no meat or anything animal. Gradually since 2008 I have been
                                            > able to get along better, and am not a mess Friday sundown. (some
                                            > EO count days sundown to sundown, many go midnight to midnight.)
                                            > I am not even a mess at the end of Lent, having gone several weeks
                                            > with no animal product except on weekends. A whole week, and not
                                            > wracked. When I first started this, I remember sizing up a woman's
                                            > leg in terms of where you make the cut to take the meat, NOT WITH
                                            > INTENT, or desire to do so, just it crossed my mind, that muscle
                                            > comes off this way.....
                                            > anyway, everybody is not suited for a vegan life, and I would never
                                            > let a child go without some fresh meat and eggs or cheese. It is
                                            > important to development. However, meat every day, well, maybe
                                            > it leaves you less used to making your own taurine.
                                            > Like I said, we make a lot but not enough of our taurine, and it is
                                            > essential to nerves, eyes, heart.
                                            > Christine
                                            > In a message dated 4/25/2011 4:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                            > annie@... writes:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Tom,
                                            >
                                            > I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B
                                            > Vitamins.
                                            > Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
                                            > wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
                                            > beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g.
                                            > chickpeas,
                                            > lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin
                                            > B12 is the
                                            > B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on
                                            > fruit
                                            > and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous
                                            > use of
                                            > pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find
                                            > B12 in
                                            > fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat"
                                            > natex (low
                                            > salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to
                                            > eat the
                                            > flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human
                                            > anatomy and
                                            > physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans
                                            > have evolved
                                            > to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy
                                            > and phys.
                                            > has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It
                                            > is a fact
                                            > that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme
                                            > present to
                                            > process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that
                                            > persists in
                                            > drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
                                            > cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of
                                            > diabetes in
                                            > children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood
                                            > leukaemia also
                                            > Crohn's disease.
                                            >
                                            > There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my
                                            > book at
                                            > the moment to help to set out well researched and sound
                                            > information so that
                                            > others can make an informed choice. I have found through working
                                            > with many
                                            > people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly
                                            > reasoned
                                            > info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer
                                            > specialists
                                            > etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every
                                            > piece of
                                            > resource available also if you are reading so called scientific
                                            > study papers
                                            > always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study
                                            > published
                                            > some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very
                                            > few people
                                            > ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
                                            > Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact !
                                            > Dairy and
                                            > Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion
                                            > dollar
                                            > businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising
                                            > With the
                                            > knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more
                                            > give my
                                            > children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and
                                            > alcohol. Why
                                            > give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and
                                            > polluted
                                            > (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it
                                            > becomes
                                            > carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition
                                            > appropriate for
                                            > their anatomy and physiology.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching
                                            > 60 he is a
                                            > lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people
                                            > (including
                                            > celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and
                                            > dairy diet
                                            > upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was
                                            > able to
                                            > retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
                                            > www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .
                                            >
                                            > I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and
                                            > they are
                                            > both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many
                                            > of their
                                            > schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
                                            > and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so
                                            > makes all
                                            > the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh
                                            > and as
                                            > nutritious as possible.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
                                            > comment.
                                            > Have a good day Blessings Megan x
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                            > Behalf Of Tom
                                            > Gibson
                                            > Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
                                            > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                                            >
                                            > I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
                                            > Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for
                                            > children,
                                            > the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no
                                            > traditional
                                            > societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly
                                            > industrialized
                                            > countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
                                            > essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient
                                            > quantities
                                            > in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the
                                            > Weston A.
                                            > Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.
                                            > <http://www.westonaprice.org./>
                                            >
                                            > Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
                                            > traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
                                            > frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to
                                            > make a long
                                            > story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
                                            > accomplished with modern food production and processing methods
                                            > was bad for
                                            > you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
                                            > animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.
                                            >
                                            > Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most
                                            > of which
                                            > is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
                                            > non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide
                                            > them this
                                            > vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found
                                            > they have
                                            > very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
                                            > marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay
                                            > for their
                                            > information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain
                                            > everything
                                            > that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled
                                            > fact when
                                            > it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the
                                            > best and
                                            > most objective nutritional information comes from research on
                                            > chickens and
                                            > other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
                                            > multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to
                                            > peop le that
                                            > have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.
                                            >
                                            > Tom
                                            >
                                            > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>, john
                                            > willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > What great people you all are.
                                            > > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the
                                            > planet
                                            > for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
                                            > demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
                                            > unsustainable.................and in any case we can get
                                            > everything we need
                                            > from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive
                                            > hygiene).
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >

                                          • john willis
                                            BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive, industrialised farming and the damage done by that is unsustainable................so, if we cannot
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 30 9:17 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive, industrialised farming and the damage done by that is unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.

                                              John.


                                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: camaspermaculture@...
                                              Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:36:05 +0000
                                              Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                               

                                              Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with your "facts" and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional cultures-ones that aren't dependent on mechanized industrialized agriculture and processing-have eliminated meat from their diet. In Japan, where many of the products you mentioned originate, they do NOT eat these foods in the way you mention. They are a very small part of the diet, more of a flavoring than a substantial part of any meal. BTW, even if all the soy produced in this country wasn't GMO, I wouldn't touch the stuff because it is very difficult even with long fermentation to remove all of the anti-nutrients and hormones from it. The only animals that do well with soy are poultry after the soy is roasted.
                                              It isn't just vitamins and amino acids. The fats contained only in meats also contain essential nutrition that support the hormone and immune system. Naturally raised meats and fat are necessary parts of a healthy diet. The list of why your regurgitation of what the industrialized food processing world would like us to believe about our food is wrong is too long to post. Your facts have no more scientific basis than Buddhism, although, I can see that your faith in soy beans is deep and heart felt. I suggest picking up Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions" in which she deals with this subject in depth in the Introduction. You can also dig out the information http://www.westonaprice.org.
                                              Tom
                                              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Annie Sampson" <annie@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Tom,
                                              >
                                              > I am a nutritionist.................

                                            • Kate
                                              I agree. Intensive meat production is unacceptable in many ways. I m vegan, very healthy with blood type O positive. Best wishes Kate
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                I agree. Intensive meat production is unacceptable in many ways.
                                                I'm vegan, very healthy with blood type O positive.
                                                Best wishes

                                                Kate
                                              • Elaine Sommers
                                                Hi John (and All) I think that there are so many view points, diets and different lifestyles that it is so difficult to get it right for everyone. Has anyone
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                  Hi John (and All) I think that there are so many view points, 'diets' and different lifestyles that it is so difficult to get it right for everyone.
                                                   
                                                  Has anyone read Victoria Boutenko's book comparing our closest cousin's (chimpanzee) diet to our present westernised diet?
                                                  Apart from the odd monkey they catch and kill most of their animal protein comes from insects and together these make up only 1% of their diet. Half is fruit, 2 - 7% is pith, bark and seeds, and the rest a huge variety of greens all depending on the season. Jane Goodall says that they can go for months and months without consuming any animal protein and seem to have no ill effects. The key seems to be variety of the other sources of food. Not just sticking to one or two kinds of leaves etc, and of course, all raw and in their natural state.
                                                   
                                                  I did email her to ask how they get their B12 vitamin but I haven't had a reply as yet. I presume they need it as we do being so close to our genetic makeup. They presumably get if from the non-animal foodstuffs they eat, but I don't know which ones. Also, they chew their food much more than we do which is needed to release the nutrients in the foods, and stomach acid has to be very strong in order to process said food stuffs - between 1 - 2. This is why she suggests the raw green smoothies, because we have lost the ability (and the will in most cases) to chew our food sufficiently to get the best out of it.
                                                   
                                                  Regarding stomach acid, the book says that this declines with over consumption of fats and proteins which wear out the parietal cells of the stomach that secret stomach acid.
                                                   
                                                  There is so much more that I could quote but it would be better to read it for yourselves and make up your own minds.
                                                   
                                                  For me, I have been veggie for 27yrs and was vegan for 2 of them and would like to be again some day. In those years I have had a great many things happen in my life and depending on what was happening it didin't matter what I ate - I either had lots of energy and zest for life, or I put on weight and felt depressed and tired all the time. It was nothing to do with food - it was life circumstances and my mental health that made the difference. The only thing I have noticed that is significant is that when I consume cooked food, however 'healthy' I feel a bloated and tired and often nauseous more than when eating raw food, or at the very least simple processed food such as bread and cheese. I practically lived on bread and cheese for a couple of years a while back because eating large quantities of raw greens made me feel bloated and sick also. Then I discovered about green smoothies and stomach acid and now I can consume much more green stuff when it has been 'pre-chewed' for me!
                                                   
                                                  My philosophy is to look at nature, look at history way back, before we discovered how to make weapons and kill, and fire to cook, and see if we have changed our diets so much since then that they are affecting our health, either for good or bad. We are the only animal to cook food, and the only one to continue having milk products after weaning. If we couldn't do these it would be interesting to see the difference in our health.
                                                   
                                                  Blessings,
                                                  Elaine.

                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                                                   
                                                  from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982





                                                   

                                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: wilf1946@...
                                                  Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:11:43 +0100
                                                  Subject: RE: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                                   
                                                  Great to see such positive thoughts - maybe there's hope for the world.

                                                  But I come back to the point that world demand for meat and other animal stuff cannot be satisfied without intensive farming and the damage from that is just not acceptable.

                                                  I am 65 yrs old, in very good health, loads of energy (doing outdoor physical work) and have been vegan for 20 years - maybe I'm blood type A.

                                                  John. 


                                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: bekki@...
                                                  Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:46:02 -0400
                                                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                                   
                                                  Interesting discussion. I was vegetarian 2 X in my life. The first
                                                  time-- for 3 years-- when I was 16 and knew nothing about nutrition. I
                                                  ended up anemic and really sick. I started eating meat again on the
                                                  advice of my doctor.
                                                  2nd time I was in my early 30s, my husband and I became vegetarians for
                                                  philosophical reasons. We ate what would be considered an excellent
                                                  diet, lots of soy anda huge variety of fresh veg, nuts etc. After 8
                                                  years I was 35 # overweight, fatigued all of the time, battled
                                                  depression constantly, and developing arthritis. And I was getting
                                                  repeated respiratory colds, sinus infections etc. which would last
                                                  weeks. Like infowolf I often craved meat.

                                                  Then I discovered the Blood Type Diet, and started eating for my blood
                                                  type (O positive). This included lean red meat, fish and poultry, as
                                                  well as a specialized list of veggie, fruits, nuts etc. Interestingly,
                                                  no dairy, no soy, no wheat, no corn. (Not all blood types should eat
                                                  meat, or dairy--Blood type A is generally best with a vegetarian or
                                                  mostly vegetarian diet. And many--but not all-- Blood Type As thrive on
                                                  soy.) The man who formulated the diets says-- do organic, free range
                                                  everything. Which is the only meat I would consider.

                                                  ALL of my health problems reversed in 2 WEEKS of changing my diet. I was
                                                  shocked. Arthritic pain gone.Fatigue gone. 14 years down the road I am
                                                  healthy, much happier, and I am almost never sick, except sometimes at
                                                  Christmas when I cheat a little and eat eggnog, whipped cream, or
                                                  wheat.., ;) I can often make do on 6 or 7 hours of slep just fine, when
                                                  before I would have to have 10 hours even to function, and that never
                                                  seemed like enough.

                                                  I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONE SIZE FITS ALL WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH AND
                                                  NUTRITION. I have seen friends and family have similar experiences with
                                                  eating for their individual differences. Everything from diabetes to
                                                  Crohn's disease to cardiovascular problems to arthritis would respond
                                                  positively to a personalized approach.

                                                  Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > there is something this misses. Taurine. It is hard to find in
                                                  > vegetables, the
                                                  > best sources are beef and bugs. next down other meats.
                                                  > we cannot make all the taurine we need. We are not obligate carnivores
                                                  > like
                                                  > cats, who can make no taurine at all. But we need meat.
                                                  > I found out that mushrooms have the same protein amino acid profile as
                                                  > meat, but whether they are a taurine source or not I am not sure.
                                                  > Lactase loss depends on not using milk. Keep drinking milk all your
                                                  > life, you don't lose it, stop drinking for years except for the occasional
                                                  > milk shake (and lactose seems to be reduced by some processing)
                                                  > then you will lose lactase.
                                                  > eggs and cheese and whey are good taurine sources. we also need
                                                  > lysine.
                                                  > I used to be very, very dependent on meat, preferably raw or rare. I
                                                  > joined
                                                  > the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on Wednesdays and Fridays and
                                                  > all of Lent and some other fasting seasons, NO ANIMAL PRODUCT AT ALL.
                                                  > It took years for me to be able to handle Lent, and even so I take a break
                                                  > on the weekends as per some earlier canons and practices gone against
                                                  > by later ones.
                                                  > Originally I would be diving desperately into RAW BEEF LIVER at
                                                  > exactly sundown Friday, in a serious mess from just doing Wednesday
                                                  > and Friday no meat or anything animal. Gradually since 2008 I have been
                                                  > able to get along better, and am not a mess Friday sundown. (some
                                                  > EO count days sundown to sundown, many go midnight to midnight.)
                                                  > I am not even a mess at the end of Lent, having gone several weeks
                                                  > with no animal product except on weekends. A whole week, and not
                                                  > wracked. When I first started this, I remember sizing up a woman's
                                                  > leg in terms of where you make the cut to take the meat, NOT WITH
                                                  > INTENT, or desire to do so, just it crossed my mind, that muscle
                                                  > comes off this way.....
                                                  > anyway, everybody is not suited for a vegan life, and I would never
                                                  > let a child go without some fresh meat and eggs or cheese. It is
                                                  > important to development. However, meat every day, well, maybe
                                                  > it leaves you less used to making your own taurine.
                                                  > Like I said, we make a lot but not enough of our taurine, and it is
                                                  > essential to nerves, eyes, heart.
                                                  > Christine
                                                  > In a message dated 4/25/2011 4:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                                  > annie@... writes:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Tom,
                                                  >
                                                  > I am a nutritionist and would just pick up on your referral to B
                                                  > Vitamins.
                                                  > Vitamin B group vitamins are found in abundance in foods such as
                                                  > wholegrains, green leafy vegetables, avocado, nuts and nut butters ,
                                                  > beansprouts, mushrooms, melons, bananas, oranges, beans e.g.
                                                  > chickpeas,
                                                  > lentils, pinto beans. Since the heavy use of pesticides Vitamin
                                                  > B12 is the
                                                  > B Vitamin that became harder to find. It was found in abundance on
                                                  > fruit
                                                  > and vegetables and in some drinking water but due to the zealous
                                                  > use of
                                                  > pesticides natural occurring Vit B12 has been reduced. Vegans find
                                                  > B12 in
                                                  > fortfied non gmo soya milks, cereals, soya margarine, soya "meat"
                                                  > natex (low
                                                  > salt) yeast extract, it is not a problem Humans do not require to
                                                  > eat the
                                                  > flesh or by-products of animal . It is a fact that the human
                                                  > anatomy and
                                                  > physiology is designed to eat a 100 % plant based diet. Humans
                                                  > have evolved
                                                  > to CHOOSE to eat flesh dictated by the tastebuds but their anatomy
                                                  > and phys.
                                                  > has not changed, hence the health problems that we deal with. It
                                                  > is a fact
                                                  > that by the age of 4yrs humans no longer have the lactase enzyme
                                                  > present to
                                                  > process lactose (milk sugar) humans are the only species that
                                                  > persists in
                                                  > drinking the milk of another species after weaning. The consumption of
                                                  > cows milk has been scientifically linked with early on set of
                                                  > diabetes in
                                                  > children(the milk sugar confuses the pancreas) , in childhood
                                                  > leukaemia also
                                                  > Crohn's disease.
                                                  >
                                                  > There is so much to go into here but that is why I am writing my
                                                  > book at
                                                  > the moment to help to set out well researched and sound
                                                  > information so that
                                                  > others can make an informed choice. I have found through working
                                                  > with many
                                                  > people that there is a great deal of confusing and somewhat poorly
                                                  > reasoned
                                                  > info. I study the scientific research and discuss with cancer
                                                  > specialists
                                                  > etc. That is the only way to properly link up and check out every
                                                  > piece of
                                                  > resource available also if you are reading so called scientific
                                                  > study papers
                                                  > always check out who has commissioned/paid for them. One study
                                                  > published
                                                  > some years ago now was all about the dangers of soya milk - very
                                                  > few people
                                                  > ever noted that it was the Milk Marketing Board who were behind it !
                                                  > Incredibly inaccurate and misleading info was presentd as fact !
                                                  > Dairy and
                                                  > Meat industries are big business !( these are your multi billion
                                                  > dollar
                                                  > businesses !) Just look at what is spent on misleading advertising
                                                  > With the
                                                  > knowledge that I have acquired over my lifetime I would no more
                                                  > give my
                                                  > children meat and dairy than I would hand them cigarettes and
                                                  > alcohol. Why
                                                  > give your child food that will make them ill and is infected and
                                                  > polluted
                                                  > (or has to be cooked so much to get rid of the bacteria that it
                                                  > becomes
                                                  > carcinogenic) when they can have clean burning nutrition
                                                  > appropriate for
                                                  > their anatomy and physiology.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > A friend of mine James is a Spinal specialist and is approaching
                                                  > 60 he is a
                                                  > lifelong vegan and looks about 40 he has treated so many people
                                                  > (including
                                                  > celebrities) and could see the acidifying effect of a meat and
                                                  > dairy diet
                                                  > upon the skeletons of his clients. Great business for him he was
                                                  > able to
                                                  > retire early and gives talks on diet and health.
                                                  > www.evolvecampaigns.org.uk worth a look .
                                                  >
                                                  > I,myself, have raised two children on a 100% plant based diet and
                                                  > they are
                                                  > both fit and healthy and never experienced weight issues that many
                                                  > of their
                                                  > schoolfriends did. My daughter has a 18 month old breast fed and vegan
                                                  > and is expecting another in July. My daughter is a keen cook so
                                                  > makes all
                                                  > the family meals from scratch, to be sure that the food is fresh
                                                  > and as
                                                  > nutritious as possible.
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyway have wandered , I was just wanting to pick up on the B Vitamin
                                                  > comment.
                                                  > Have a good day Blessings Megan x
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                                                  > Behalf Of Tom
                                                  > Gibson
                                                  > Sent: 14 April 2011 17:18
                                                  > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Subject: [pfaf] Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                                                  >
                                                  > I disagree that we can get everything we want from a plant based diet.
                                                  > Further, I think that strictly plant based diets are harmful for
                                                  > children,
                                                  > the younger they are this more harmful it might be. There are no
                                                  > traditional
                                                  > societies that have such diets. They only exist in highly
                                                  > industrialized
                                                  > countries, and are dependent on industrial technology to supplement
                                                  > essential vitamins and amino acids that don't exist in sufficient
                                                  > quantities
                                                  > in plants. There is really good research backing this up at the
                                                  > Weston A.
                                                  > Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org.
                                                  > <http://www.westonaprice.org./>
                                                  >
                                                  > Price was a dentist that wanted to know why people in third world
                                                  > traditional societies had big wide smiles while people in the U. S.
                                                  > frequently had crowded mouths and bad teeth. What he found, to
                                                  > make a long
                                                  > story short, is that almost everything we thought we had learned and
                                                  > accomplished with modern food production and processing methods
                                                  > was bad for
                                                  > you and that people n eed raw milk, meat and fat from naturally raised
                                                  > animals, and to be eating less processed foods and cereal grains.
                                                  >
                                                  > Most strict vegetarians get vitamin B from nutritional yeast most
                                                  > of which
                                                  > is grown on GMO beet pulp. Those that are paying a lot of money to get
                                                  > non-GMO yeast still rely on industrial technologies to provide
                                                  > them this
                                                  > vital nutrition. In talking to many vegans and vegetarians I found
                                                  > they have
                                                  > very little science based knowledge on animal nutrition, relying on
                                                  > marketing organizations that promote their products and hearsay
                                                  > for their
                                                  > information. In saying that I realize that science can't explain
                                                  > everything
                                                  > that we might believe is true, but the science is a well settled
                                                  > fact when
                                                  > it comes to animal nutrition, including humans. I found that the
                                                  > best and
                                                  > most objective nutritional information comes from research on
                                                  > chickens and
                                                  > other barnyard animals and is far less likely to be influenced by the
                                                  > multi-billion dollar industries that are promoting products to
                                                  > peop le that
                                                  > have decided that not eating meat is something they would like to try.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tom
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>, john
                                                  > willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What great people you all are.
                                                  > > The problem as I see it is that there are too many people on the
                                                  > planet
                                                  > for "real" livestock farming ever to satisfy demand. The scale of this
                                                  > demand is such that the environmental damage caused is
                                                  > unsustainable.................and in any case we can get
                                                  > everything we need
                                                  > from a plant-based diet (provided we dispense with our obsessive
                                                  > hygiene).
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                • Gail Lloyd
                                                  Also read The Whole Soy Story by Kaayla T. Daniel, to find out the dark side of soy.  I believe that fermented soy (tempeh, miso, natto, namu shoyu) in small
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                    Also read The Whole Soy Story by Kaayla T. Daniel, to find out the dark side of soy. 

                                                    I believe that fermented soy (tempeh, miso, natto, namu shoyu) in small amounts are fine because any fermented food in small amounts help digestion.

                                                    Humans need the nutrients in meat that are not found in very many plant foods (and not easily obtainable).  But we don't need meat in large quantities...probably once a month or so would be just fine, because our bodies hold some nutrients for a long time.  Just think of what our ancient ancestors needed...they hunted for their meat and didn't get it every day.  Our bodies are pretty much the same now as then, with few differences as far as nutrition is concerned.  You can find more info on this when you google Paleolithic diet. 

                                                    I've always believed that almost everything is good in moderation (with the exception of refined foods and foods that have been tampered with by humans like putting pesticides on produce, giving grains to grass-eating animals etc).  Jack LaLane always said, "If man made it, don't eat it."...I think he had a very valid point. 

                                                    To back up my theories, I've tried all different kinds of diets, including vegetarian.  I know everyone is a little different, yet we're all basically the same, and we have teeth with molars to prove it (meant to chew meat). I eat a mostly vegetarian diet with mostly raw foods, with very little processed foods, and free-range meat occasionally, and free-range eggs at least 3X/wk.  I can count on one hand the number of times I've been sick in the last 20 years of following this diet.  That is proof enough for me.  I'm 62, 5'6", weigh 115 lb and never felt better.

                                                    Gail,
                                                    Horticulturist



                                                    From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 11:17:56 AM
                                                    Subject: RE: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                                     

                                                    BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive, industrialised farming and the damage done by that is unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.


                                                    John.


                                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: camaspermaculture@...
                                                    Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:36:05 +0000
                                                    Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"

                                                     

                                                    Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with your "facts" and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional cultures-ones that aren't dependent on mechanized industrialized agriculture and processing-have eliminated meat from their diet. In Japan, where many of the products you mentioned originate, they do NOT eat these foods in the way you mention. They are a very small part of the diet, more of a flavoring than a substantial part of any meal. BTW, even if all the soy produced in this country wasn't GMO, I wouldn't touch the stuff because it is very difficult even with long fermentation to remove all of the anti-nutrients and hormones from it. The only animals that do well with soy are poultry after the soy is roasted.
                                                    It isn't just vitamins and amino acids. The fats contained only in meats also contain essential nutrition that support the hormone and immune system. Naturally raised meats and fat are necessary parts of a healthy diet. The list of why your regurgitation of what the industrialized food processing world would like us to believe about our food is wrong is too long to post. Your facts have no more scientific basis than Buddhism, although, I can see that your faith in soy beans is deep and heart felt. I suggest picking up Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions" in which she deals with this subject in depth in the Introduction. You can also dig out the information http://www.westonaprice.org.
                                                    Tom
                                                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Annie Sampson" <annie@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Tom,
                                                    >
                                                    > I am a nutritionist.................

                                                  • Tom Gibson
                                                    John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the world. I guess
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                      John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized
                                                      farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the
                                                      world. I guess it's true that if you repeat the same lie over and again
                                                      enough times people will start to believe it. Your belief is a lie.
                                                      There are millions of acres of grassland that co-evolved with vast herds
                                                      of animals that were slaughtered to deprive native Americans of their
                                                      main food source. Grasslands are improved by "mob grazing" (look it up).
                                                      Books and many articles in magazines by sustainable farmers have been
                                                      written on the topic. Google "Joel Salatin", one of the stars or "Food,
                                                      Inc." (the movie against industrialized food production). Yes we can
                                                      feed the world, and no-we don't have to discriminate against plants,
                                                      that are just people too that speak a different language than we do.
                                                      Veganism and vegetarianism are TOTALLY dependent on industrialized
                                                      agricultural systems to survive and I would NEVER deprive a child of
                                                      essential nutrition based on a feeling that it is the right thing to do.

                                                      Having said that I also don't participate in any way in the
                                                      industrialized food system. I buy all my meat from pasture raised
                                                      animals directly from a farmer or grow them myself. I only go to stores
                                                      like Whole Foods when I want to buy junk snacks like organic corn chips
                                                      to eat with our home made chili. Sometimes in the middle of winter we
                                                      will purchase some organic greens wherever they are freshest and most
                                                      nutritious looking, but we are working on that. So, yeah, if you buy all
                                                      of your food in a store then you have some very hard choices to make.
                                                      General rule #1, if it has a label, don't buy it. General rule #2, if it
                                                      has a label with a list of ingredients DON'T BUY IT.

                                                      Tom
                                                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
                                                      industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
                                                      unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
                                                      producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
                                                      > John.
                                                      >
                                                    • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                                      We can start by having fewer children... and living with less technology. Many of the problems we face are caused by our dependence on fossil fuels and living
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                        We can start by having fewer children... and living with less
                                                        technology. Many of the problems we face are caused by our dependence on
                                                        fossil fuels and living beyond the planet's means.


                                                        john willis wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
                                                        > industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
                                                        > unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
                                                        > producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > John.
                                                        >
                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > From: camaspermaculture@...
                                                        > Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:36:05 +0000
                                                        > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Annie, to be polite let me just say that I completely disagree with
                                                        > your "facts" and I will simply ask you to tell me which traditional
                                                        > cultures-ones that aren't dependent on mechanized industrialized
                                                        > agriculture and processing-have eliminated meat from their diet. In
                                                        > Japan, where many of the products you mentioned originate, they do NOT
                                                        > eat these foods in the way you mention. They are a very small part of
                                                        > the diet, more of a flavoring than a substantial part of any meal.
                                                        > BTW, even if all the soy produced in this country wasn't GMO, I
                                                        > wouldn't touch the stuff because it is very difficult even with long
                                                        > fermentation to remove all of the anti-nutrients and hormones from it.
                                                        > The only animals that do well with soy are poultry after the soy is
                                                        > roasted.
                                                        > It isn't just vitamins and amino acids. The fats contained only in
                                                        > meats also contain essential nutrition that support the hormone and
                                                        > immune system. Naturally raised meats and fat are necessary parts of a
                                                        > healthy diet. The list of why your regurgitation of what the
                                                        > industrialized food processing world would like us to believe about
                                                        > our food is wrong is too long to post. Your facts have no more
                                                        > scientific basis than Buddhism, although, I can see that your faith in
                                                        > soy beans is deep and heart felt. I suggest picking up Sally Fallon's
                                                        > "Nourishing Traditions" in which she deals with this subject in depth
                                                        > in the Introduction. You can also dig out the information
                                                        > http://www.westonaprice.org
                                                        > Tom
                                                        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Annie Sampson" <annie@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Tom,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I am a nutritionist.................
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                      • Michael Porter
                                                        The voice of reason, -- I like it-- ... From: Tom Gibson Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was definition of farm To:
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , May 1, 2011
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                                                          The voice of reason, -- I like it--

                                                          --- On Sun, 5/1/11, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...> wrote:

                                                          From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
                                                          Subject: [pfaf] Re: Plant based diets Was "definition of "farm"
                                                          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 1:36 PM

                                                           

                                                          John-Seems like I have to make this point again. Intense industrialized
                                                          farming should not be in our future and it is NOT necessary to feed the
                                                          world. I guess it's true that if you repeat the same lie over and again
                                                          enough times people will start to believe it. Your belief is a lie.
                                                          There are millions of acres of grassland that co-evolved with vast herds
                                                          of animals that were slaughtered to deprive native Americans of their
                                                          main food source. Grasslands are improved by "mob grazing" (look it up).
                                                          Books and many articles in magazines by sustainable farmers have been
                                                          written on the topic. Google "Joel Salatin", one of the stars or "Food,
                                                          Inc." (the movie against industrialized food production). Yes we can
                                                          feed the world, and no-we don't have to discriminate against plants,
                                                          that are just people too that speak a different language than we do.
                                                          Veganism and vegetarianism are TOTALLY dependent on industrialized
                                                          agricultural systems to survive and I would NEVER deprive a child of
                                                          essential nutrition based on a feeling that it is the right thing to do.

                                                          Having said that I also don't participate in any way in the
                                                          industrialized food system. I buy all my meat from pasture raised
                                                          animals directly from a farmer or grow them myself. I only go to stores
                                                          like Whole Foods when I want to buy junk snacks like organic corn chips
                                                          to eat with our home made chili. Sometimes in the middle of winter we
                                                          will purchase some organic greens wherever they are freshest and most
                                                          nutritious looking, but we are working on that. So, yeah, if you buy all
                                                          of your food in a store then you have some very hard choices to make.
                                                          General rule #1, if it has a label, don't buy it. General rule #2, if it
                                                          has a label with a list of ingredients DON'T BUY IT.

                                                          Tom
                                                          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > BUT - world demand for meat can only be met by intensive,
                                                          industrialised farming and the damage done by that is
                                                          unsustainable................so, if we cannot live without it and
                                                          producing it cannot be sustained where do we go from here.
                                                          > John.
                                                          >

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