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Re: [pfaf] re: compost

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  • Peter Ellis
    Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for millions of years,
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 3 10:40 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the
      investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for
      millions of years, otherwise we'd still be monkeys. The only abnormality
      has been the speed, although I'd grant you genetic modification using
      different species is another matter.

      Cheers
      Peter
      Enjoying the wild asparagus that we pick locally, as it is now in season

      john willis wrote:
      >
      >
      > But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a
      > par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are
      > forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them
      > by us.
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > From: gardenchick1949@...
      > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
      > Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost
      >
      >
      >
      > There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in
      > compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not
      > given antibiotics, etc.
      > Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having
      > good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition.
      > Gail
      > Certified Horticulturist
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > *From:* john willis <wilf1946@...>
      > *To:* pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > *Sent:* Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
      > *Subject:* RE: [pfaf] re: compost
      >
      >
      > As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet -
      > it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal
      > shit is ok but farm stuff is not.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > From: permalove@...
      > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
      > Subject: [pfaf] re: compost
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi there (faerie)
      >
      > While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a
      > public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and
      > the contents of compost.
      > I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't
      > have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost)
      > in order to achieve good compost. In fact, even though all the
      > ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by
      > the time it's ready.
      >
      > Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important
      > (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household
      > organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).
      > A light input of animal acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order,
      > and the compost will gratefully accept it. However, if you have
      > poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them. I
      > don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
      >
      > Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is
      > varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will
      > immediately come and tuck in. Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and
      > centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa,
      > etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together. Most of
      > these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
      >
      > In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue. As
      > Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem.
      > I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with
      > a fairly diverse input.
      > Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).
      > Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the
      > nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment. The
      > particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with
      > carbon will prevent both of these.
      > Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have
      > animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. -
      > winter). Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source.
      >
      > If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it
      > nearby. This source will depend on the locality.
      >
      > If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a reputable
      > forest management service and use wood chips. If you live near a
      > grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain
      > hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that.
      >
      > If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand
      > (pitchfork).
      > Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long
      > "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden
      > shouldn't need such a large scale exercise.
      >
      > Peace,
      >
      > Steve
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
      > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
      > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
      > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
      >
      > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
      > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
      > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
      > /The crownless again shall be king."/
      >
      > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > No virus found in this message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
      > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3547 - Release Date: 04/02/11
      >
    • Gail Lloyd
      I don t get it that human-bred animals are unnatural (unless they re cloned and genetic modifications)(cross-breeding happens in nature, too, with plants, at
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 3 3:17 PM
      • 0 Attachment
             I don't get it that human-bred animals are unnatural (unless they're cloned and genetic modifications)(cross-breeding happens in nature, too, with plants, at least, and probably animals also - it's not unnatural)...they're as natural as we are.  I guess you could argue that humans are also unnatural because we've changed a lot over the centuries, also, as well as changing due to the junk food we eat.
             I agree with you, though, that wild animals and wild foods are also good for us (they have more omega-3s), but domesticated plants (as long as they're heirloom) and domesticated animals (as long as they're not cloned and as long as they eat their natural diet, ie, cows eating grass and not grains)... I don't see how you could consider them unnatural, any more than cats and dogs are unnatural.  But to each his own.  But it's still a proven fact that compost with manure helps plants grow better.
        Gail


        From: Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...>
        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 12:40:27 PM
        Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

        Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the
        investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for
        millions of years, otherwise we'd still be monkeys. The only abnormality
        has been the speed, although I'd grant you genetic modification using
        different species is another matter.

        Cheers
        Peter
        Enjoying the wild asparagus that we pick locally, as it is now in season

        john willis wrote:

        >
        > But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a
        > par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are
        > forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them
        > by us.
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        > From:
        ymailto="mailto:gardenchick1949@..." href="mailto:gardenchick1949@...">gardenchick1949@...
        > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
        > Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost
        >

        >
        > There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in
        > compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not
        > given antibiotics, etc.
        > Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having
        > good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition.
        > Gail
        > Certified Horticulturist
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > *From:* john willis <wilf1946@...>
        > *To:* pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        >
        *Sent:* Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
        > *Subject:* RE: [pfaf] re: compost
        >

        > As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet -
        > it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal
        > shit is ok but farm stuff is not.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        > From: permalove@...
        > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
        > Subject: [pfaf] re: compost
        >

        >
        > Hi there (faerie)

        > While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a
        > public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and
        > the contents of
        compost.
        > I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't
        > have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost)
        > in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the
        > ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by
        > the time it's ready.

        > Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important
        > (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household
        > organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens). 
        > A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order,
        > and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have
        > poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I
        > don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.

        > Nature and her
        soils are not vegan - as long as the content is
        > varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will
        > immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and
        > centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa,
        > etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of
        > these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.

        > In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As
        > Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem.
        > I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with
        > a fairly diverse input.
        > Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30). 
        > Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the
        > nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The
        >
        particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with
        > carbon will prevent both of these.
        > Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have
        > animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. -
        > winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source.

        > If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it
        > nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.

        > If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable
        > forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a
        > grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain
        > hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that.

        > If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand
        > (pitchfork).
        > Some operations, such as
        commercial mushroom growers, make long
        > "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden
        > shouldn't need such a large scale exercise.

        > Peace,

        > Steve


        > --
        >
        >    /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
        >    /Not all those who wander are lost;/
        >    /The old that is strong does not wither,/
        >    /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
        >
        >    /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
        >    /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
        >    /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
        >    /The crownless again shall be king."/
        >
        > ~  J.R.R. Tolkien
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > No virus found in
        this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
        > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3547 - Release Date: 04/02/11
        >



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      • Michael Porter
        this -is --pure poo   how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have good manure, --I can t think of any un-evolving species   
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 4 4:09 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

          --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

          From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
          Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

           
          But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          From: gardenchick1949@...
          Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
          Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

           

          There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
          Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
          Gail
          Certified Horticulturist



          From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
          Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

           
          As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          From: permalove@...
          Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
          Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

           

          Hi there (faerie)
           
          While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
          I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
           
          Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
           
          Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
           
          In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
          I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
          Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
          Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
           
          If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
           
          If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
           
          If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
          Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
           
          Peace,
           
          Steve
           
           
          --
          "All that is gold does not glitter,
          Not all those who wander are lost;
          The old that is strong does not wither,
          Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
          From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
          A light from the shadows shall spring;
          Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
          The crownless again shall be king."
          ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



        • Infowolf1@aol.com
          probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure? Mary Christine In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 4 4:20 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
             
            Mary Christine
             
            In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
             

            this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

            --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

            From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
            Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

             
            But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            From: gardenchick1949@...
            Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
            Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

             

            There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
            Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
            Gail
            Certified Horticulturist



            From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
            Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

             
            As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            From: permalove@...
            Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
            Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

             

            Hi there (faerie)
             
            While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
            I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
             
            Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
             
            Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
             
            In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
            I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
            Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
            Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
             
            If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
             
            If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
             
            If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
            Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
             
            Peace,
             
            Steve
             
             
            --
            "All that is gold does not glitter,
            Not all those who wander are lost;
            The old that is strong does not wither,
            Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
            From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
            A light from the shadows shall spring;
            Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
            The crownless again shall be king."
            ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



          • Sheila
            But they evolve themselves...every living thing does Sheila
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 4 6:22 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              But they evolve themselves...every living thing does
              Sheila
              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
              >
              > probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some
              > British enclosure?
              >
              > Mary Christine
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > michaels4gardens@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > this -is --pure "poo" how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved
              > species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"
              > --just amazing -
              >
            • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
              I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable... everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature.
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 4 10:05 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable...

                everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature. Mutation is constantly happening-- even without radiation... of course there is good mutation and bad mutation...

                In the past evolution was directed (Not possible to control it, until GMOs) by humans working with nature. (Aside from doggie and kitty evolution of course ;-)  .) I doubt if even heritage breeds are all that much like their ancestors, but early humans understood that if you breed sustainability out of a cow, you only make more work for yourself.

                Infowolf1@... wrote:
                 

                probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
                 
                Mary Christine
                 
                In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
                 

                this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                 
                But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                From: gardenchick1949@...
                Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                 

                There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                Gail
                Certified Horticulturist



                From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                 
                As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                From: permalove@...
                Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                 

                Hi there (faerie)
                 
                While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                 
                Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                 
                Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                 
                In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                 
                If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                 
                If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                 
                If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                 
                Peace,
                 
                Steve
                 
                 
                --
                "All that is gold does not glitter,
                Not all those who wander are lost;
                The old that is strong does not wither,
                Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                A light from the shadows shall spring;
                Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                The crownless again shall be king."
                ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



              • john willis
                Problem is - we forced the evolution and nowadays it is done purely for monetary gain. It is the wild animals who are really evolving. Lots of love to all -
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 4 11:43 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Problem is - we forced the "evolution" and nowadays it is done purely for monetary gain.

                  It is the wild animals who are really evolving.

                  Lots of love to all - John.


                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  From: bekki@...
                  Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:05:54 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                   
                  I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable...

                  everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature. Mutation is constantly happening-- even without radiation... of course there is good mutation and bad mutation...

                  In the past evolution was directed (Not possible to control it, until GMOs) by humans working with nature. (Aside from doggie and kitty evolution of course ;-)  .) I doubt if even heritage breeds are all that much like their ancestors, but early humans understood that if you breed sustainability out of a cow, you only make more work for yourself.

                  Infowolf1@... wrote:
                   

                  probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
                   
                  Mary Christine
                   
                  In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
                   
                  this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                  --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                  From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                  Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                   
                  But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  From: gardenchick1949@...
                  Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                   

                  There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                  Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                  Gail
                  Certified Horticulturist



                  From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                  Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                   
                  As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  From: permalove@...
                  Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                  Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                   

                  Hi there (faerie)
                   
                  While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                  I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                   
                  Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                   
                  Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                   
                  In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                  I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                  Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                  Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                   
                  If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                   
                  If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                   
                  If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                  Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                   
                  Peace,
                   
                  Steve
                   
                   
                  --
                  "All that is gold does not glitter,
                  Not all those who wander are lost;
                  The old that is strong does not wither,
                  Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                  From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                  A light from the shadows shall spring;
                  Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                  The crownless again shall be king."
                  ~  J.R.R. Tolkien





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