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re: compost

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  • Steve
    Hi there (faerie) While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 25, 2011
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      Hi there (faerie)
       
      While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
      I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
       
      Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
       
      Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
       
      In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
      I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
      Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
      Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
       
      If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
       
      If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
       
      If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
      Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
       
      Peace,
       
      Steve
       
       
      --
      "All that is gold does not glitter,
      Not all those who wander are lost;
      The old that is strong does not wither,
      Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
      From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
      A light from the shadows shall spring;
      Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
      The crownless again shall be king."
      ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

    • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
      I agree with Steve-- though I am not so scientific about my compost heap! In particular I think eggshells, if you eat eggs, are a good source of some minerals,
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 25, 2011
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        I agree with Steve-- though I am not so scientific about my compost heap!

        In particular I think eggshells, if you eat eggs, are a good source of
        some minerals, and we tend to use some wood ash in our compost
        especially in the wintertime, since we cook as well as heat with wood.

        Since we have lots of woods on our land we also compost a fair amount of
        leaves, though my husband says the acidity of some kinds of leaves can
        be high. We have a creek on our property, which flows over sandstone
        bedrock, and so fall and spring rains bring down a lot of sand mixed
        with leaves. I dig this out for my gardens (I do raised beds) and the
        mixture, especially when it has rotted down, is very good for growing
        all kinds of things, and I soetimes add some of that in, because the two
        of us don't generate so much in the way of food scraps.

        I was always really taken with the idea of a biodynamic approach but
        could never quite make myself go through all of that work! I know that
        comfrey is a good soil amendment that is used in that method, and it
        will grow almost anywhere and improves the soil where it grows because
        of its deep roots. We seldom add it to our compost (maybe it's time to
        start) but we have successfully used it for landscaping an area where
        the state decided to dump red clay on our land after a bridge-building
        project... the leaves make good humus on top of the clay in the fall too.

        Bekki

        Steve wrote:
        > Hi there (faerie)
        > While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a
        > public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and
        > the contents of compost.
        > I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't
        > have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost)
        > in order to achieve good compost. In fact, even though all the
        > ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by
        > the time it's ready.
        > Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important
        > (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household
        > organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).
        > A light input of animal acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order,
        > and the compost will gratefully accept it. However, if you have
        > poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them. I
        > don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
        > Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied
        > the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come
        > and tuck in. Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood
        > lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume,
        > break down and mix the contents together. Most of these will regularly
        > contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
        > In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue. As
        > Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem.
        > I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with
        > a fairly diverse input.
        > Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).
        > Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the
        > nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment. The
        > particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with
        > carbon will prevent both of these.
        > Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have
        > animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. -
        > winter). Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source.
        > If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it
        > nearby. This source will depend on the locality.
        > If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a reputable
        > forest management service and use wood chips. If you live near a grass
        > farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw
        > and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that.
        > If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand
        > (pitchfork).
        > Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long
        > "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden
        > shouldn't need such a large scale exercise.
        > Peace,
        > Steve
        > --
        >
        > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
        > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
        > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
        > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
        >
        > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
        > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
        > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
        > /The crownless again shall be king."/
        >
        > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
        >
        >
      • faerie9woman@yahoo.com
        Thank u for the info. I am actually vegan but I agree the soil is not and I do have hay and wood chips. I will contact the local cooperative and see if they
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 25, 2011
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          Thank u for the info. I am actually vegan but I agree the soil is not and I do have hay and wood chips. I will contact the local cooperative and see if they can test the nitrogen carbon content of my soil - am so grateful forr all the input here. Thank u all

          Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


          From: Steve <permalove@...>
          Sender: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
          To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
          ReplyTo: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

           

          Hi there (faerie)
           
          While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
          I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
           
          Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
           
          Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
           
          In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
          I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
          Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
          Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
           
          If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
           
          If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
           
          If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
          Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
           
          Peace,
           
          Steve
           
           
          --
          "All that is gold does not glitter,
          Not all those who wander are lost;
          The old that is strong does not wither,
          Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
          From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
          A light from the shadows shall spring;
          Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
          The crownless again shall be king."
          ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

        • listenstohorses
          The foundation of my gardening program is sawdust and horse manure.  I only discovered the love of gardening when as a child I noticed most all stables had
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 25, 2011
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            The foundation of my gardening program is sawdust and horse manure.  I only discovered the love of gardening when as a child I noticed most all stables had huge piles of stinky manure...most but not all. 

            Permies  ... My fave place on the net... some good reading here on lots of neat stuff
             

          • john willis
            i always thought sawdust took so long to break down there was a danger that the compost would rob the soil of nitrogen. To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com From:
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 26, 2011
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              i always thought sawdust took so long to break down there was a danger that the compost would rob the soil of nitrogen. 


              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              From: listenstohorses@...
              Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:32:11 -0700
              Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

               
              The foundation of my gardening program is sawdust and horse manure.  I only discovered the love of gardening when as a child I noticed most all stables had huge piles of stinky manure...most but not all. 

              Permies  ... My fave place on the net... some good reading here on lots of neat stuff
               


            • john willis
              As usual the whole point of vegan is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 26, 2011
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                As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 


                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                From: permalove@...
                Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                 

                Hi there (faerie)
                 
                While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                 
                Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                 
                Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                 
                In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                 
                If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                 
                If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                 
                If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                 
                Peace,
                 
                Steve
                 
                 
                --
                "All that is gold does not glitter,
                Not all those who wander are lost;
                The old that is strong does not wither,
                Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                A light from the shadows shall spring;
                Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                The crownless again shall be king."
                ~  J.R.R. Tolkien


              • listenstohorses@yahoo.com
                I am still learning as I go along and I have had to move away from my gardens over the years but I have never struggled with what to do with all the biproduct
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 27, 2011
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                  I am still learning as I go along and I have had to move away from my gardens over the years but I have never struggled with what to do with all the biproduct of horses.
                  I still check old gardens some and my plants make me think I am doing something right.

                  Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless


                  -----Original message-----
                  From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                  To:
                  pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent:
                  Sun, Mar 27, 2011 09:26:07 GMT+00:00
                  Subject:
                  RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                  i always thought sawdust took so long to break down there was a danger that the compost would rob the soil of nitrogen. 


                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  From: listenstohorses@...
                  Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:32:11 -0700
                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                   
                  The foundation of my gardening program is sawdust and horse manure.  I only discovered the love of gardening when as a child I noticed most all stables had huge piles of stinky manure...most but not all. 

                  Permies  ... My fave place on the net... some good reading here on lots of neat stuff
                   


                • listenstohorses
                  It is all about the mixture, how much horse poo to how much bedding, as well as which bedding the load is heavy with.  It is close to instant compost.  I
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 27, 2011
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                    It is all about the mixture, how much horse poo to how much bedding, as well as which bedding the load is heavy with.  It is close to instant compost.  I pile or layer in areas I want to garden and have good results, results that are both quick and long term.  Big piles are good, as are thinner layers depending on my project. 

                    Permies  ... My fave place on the net... some good reading here on lots of neat stuff
                     

                  • Gail Lloyd
                    There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 31, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                      Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                      Gail
                      Certified Horticulturist



                      From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                      Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                       

                      As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 


                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      From: permalove@...
                      Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                      Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                       

                      Hi there (faerie)
                       
                      While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                      I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                       
                      Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                       
                      Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                       
                      In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                      I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                      Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                      Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                       
                      If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                       
                      If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                       
                      If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                      Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                       
                      Peace,
                       
                      Steve
                       
                       
                      --
                      "All that is gold does not glitter,
                      Not all those who wander are lost;
                      The old that is strong does not wither,
                      Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                      From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                      A light from the shadows shall spring;
                      Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                      The crownless again shall be king."
                      ~  J.R.R. Tolkien


                    • john willis
                      But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 3, 2011
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                        But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        From: gardenchick1949@...
                        Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                        Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                         

                        There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                        Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                        Gail
                        Certified Horticulturist



                        From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                        Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                         
                        As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        From: permalove@...
                        Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                        Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                         

                        Hi there (faerie)
                         
                        While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                        I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                         
                        Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                         
                        Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                         
                        In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                        I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                        Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                        Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                         
                        If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                         
                        If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                         
                        If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                        Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                         
                        Peace,
                         
                        Steve
                         
                         
                        --
                        "All that is gold does not glitter,
                        Not all those who wander are lost;
                        The old that is strong does not wither,
                        Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                        From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                        A light from the shadows shall spring;
                        Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                        The crownless again shall be king."
                        ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



                      • Peter Ellis
                        Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for millions of years,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 3, 2011
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                          Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the
                          investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for
                          millions of years, otherwise we'd still be monkeys. The only abnormality
                          has been the speed, although I'd grant you genetic modification using
                          different species is another matter.

                          Cheers
                          Peter
                          Enjoying the wild asparagus that we pick locally, as it is now in season

                          john willis wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a
                          > par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are
                          > forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them
                          > by us.
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: gardenchick1949@...
                          > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                          > Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in
                          > compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not
                          > given antibiotics, etc.
                          > Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having
                          > good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition.
                          > Gail
                          > Certified Horticulturist
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > *From:* john willis <wilf1946@...>
                          > *To:* pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          > *Sent:* Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                          > *Subject:* RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                          >
                          >
                          > As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet -
                          > it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal
                          > shit is ok but farm stuff is not.
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: permalove@...
                          > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                          > Subject: [pfaf] re: compost
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi there (faerie)
                          >
                          > While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a
                          > public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and
                          > the contents of compost.
                          > I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't
                          > have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost)
                          > in order to achieve good compost. In fact, even though all the
                          > ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by
                          > the time it's ready.
                          >
                          > Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important
                          > (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household
                          > organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).
                          > A light input of animal acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order,
                          > and the compost will gratefully accept it. However, if you have
                          > poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them. I
                          > don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                          >
                          > Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is
                          > varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will
                          > immediately come and tuck in. Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and
                          > centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa,
                          > etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together. Most of
                          > these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                          >
                          > In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue. As
                          > Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem.
                          > I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with
                          > a fairly diverse input.
                          > Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).
                          > Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the
                          > nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment. The
                          > particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with
                          > carbon will prevent both of these.
                          > Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have
                          > animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. -
                          > winter). Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source.
                          >
                          > If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it
                          > nearby. This source will depend on the locality.
                          >
                          > If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a reputable
                          > forest management service and use wood chips. If you live near a
                          > grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain
                          > hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that.
                          >
                          > If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand
                          > (pitchfork).
                          > Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long
                          > "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden
                          > shouldn't need such a large scale exercise.
                          >
                          > Peace,
                          >
                          > Steve
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                          > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                          > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                          > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                          >
                          > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                          > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                          > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                          > /The crownless again shall be king."/
                          >
                          > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          > No virus found in this message.
                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                          > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3547 - Release Date: 04/02/11
                          >
                        • Gail Lloyd
                          I don t get it that human-bred animals are unnatural (unless they re cloned and genetic modifications)(cross-breeding happens in nature, too, with plants, at
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 3, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                                 I don't get it that human-bred animals are unnatural (unless they're cloned and genetic modifications)(cross-breeding happens in nature, too, with plants, at least, and probably animals also - it's not unnatural)...they're as natural as we are.  I guess you could argue that humans are also unnatural because we've changed a lot over the centuries, also, as well as changing due to the junk food we eat.
                                 I agree with you, though, that wild animals and wild foods are also good for us (they have more omega-3s), but domesticated plants (as long as they're heirloom) and domesticated animals (as long as they're not cloned and as long as they eat their natural diet, ie, cows eating grass and not grains)... I don't see how you could consider them unnatural, any more than cats and dogs are unnatural.  But to each his own.  But it's still a proven fact that compost with manure helps plants grow better.
                            Gail


                            From: Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...>
                            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 12:40:27 PM
                            Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                            Whilst man has speeded up the process by cross breeding to maximise the
                            investment to yield ratio, animal development has been going on for
                            millions of years, otherwise we'd still be monkeys. The only abnormality
                            has been the speed, although I'd grant you genetic modification using
                            different species is another matter.

                            Cheers
                            Peter
                            Enjoying the wild asparagus that we pick locally, as it is now in season

                            john willis wrote:

                            >
                            > But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a
                            > par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are
                            > forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them
                            > by us.
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            > From:
                            ymailto="mailto:gardenchick1949@..." href="mailto:gardenchick1949@...">gardenchick1949@...
                            > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                            > Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost
                            >

                            >
                            > There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in
                            > compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not
                            > given antibiotics, etc.
                            > Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having
                            > good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition.
                            > Gail
                            > Certified Horticulturist
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > *From:* john willis <wilf1946@...>
                            > *To:* pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            *Sent:* Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                            > *Subject:* RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                            >

                            > As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet -
                            > it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal
                            > shit is ok but farm stuff is not.
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: permalove@...
                            > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                            > Subject: [pfaf] re: compost
                            >

                            >
                            > Hi there (faerie)

                            > While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a
                            > public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and
                            > the contents of
                            compost.
                            > I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't
                            > have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost)
                            > in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the
                            > ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by
                            > the time it's ready.

                            > Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important
                            > (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household
                            > organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens). 
                            > A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order,
                            > and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have
                            > poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I
                            > don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.

                            > Nature and her
                            soils are not vegan - as long as the content is
                            > varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will
                            > immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and
                            > centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa,
                            > etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of
                            > these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.

                            > In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As
                            > Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem.
                            > I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with
                            > a fairly diverse input.
                            > Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30). 
                            > Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the
                            > nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The
                            >
                            particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with
                            > carbon will prevent both of these.
                            > Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have
                            > animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. -
                            > winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source.

                            > If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it
                            > nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.

                            > If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable
                            > forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a
                            > grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain
                            > hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that.

                            > If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand
                            > (pitchfork).
                            > Some operations, such as
                            commercial mushroom growers, make long
                            > "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden
                            > shouldn't need such a large scale exercise.

                            > Peace,

                            > Steve


                            > --
                            >
                            >    /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                            >    /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                            >    /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                            >    /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                            >
                            >    /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                            >    /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                            >    /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                            >    /The crownless again shall be king."/
                            >
                            > ~  J.R.R. Tolkien
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > No virus found in
                            this message.
                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                            > Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3547 - Release Date: 04/02/11
                            >



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                          • Michael Porter
                            this -is --pure poo   how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have good manure, --I can t think of any un-evolving species   
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 4, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                              --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                              From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                              Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                               
                              But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              From: gardenchick1949@...
                              Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                              Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                               

                              There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                              Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                              Gail
                              Certified Horticulturist



                              From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                              Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                               
                              As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              From: permalove@...
                              Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                              Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                               

                              Hi there (faerie)
                               
                              While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                              I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                               
                              Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                               
                              Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                               
                              In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                              I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                              Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                              Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                               
                              If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                               
                              If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                               
                              If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                              Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                               
                              Peace,
                               
                              Steve
                               
                               
                              --
                              "All that is gold does not glitter,
                              Not all those who wander are lost;
                              The old that is strong does not wither,
                              Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                              From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                              A light from the shadows shall spring;
                              Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                              The crownless again shall be king."
                              ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



                            • Infowolf1@aol.com
                              probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure? Mary Christine In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 4, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
                                 
                                Mary Christine
                                 
                                In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
                                 

                                this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                                --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                                From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                                 
                                But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                From: gardenchick1949@...
                                Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                                Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                                 

                                There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                                Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                                Gail
                                Certified Horticulturist



                                From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                                Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                                 
                                As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                From: permalove@...
                                Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                                Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                                 

                                Hi there (faerie)
                                 
                                While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                                I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                                 
                                Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                                 
                                Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                                 
                                In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                                I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                                Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                                Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                                 
                                If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                                 
                                If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                                 
                                If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                                Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                                 
                                Peace,
                                 
                                Steve
                                 
                                 
                                --
                                "All that is gold does not glitter,
                                Not all those who wander are lost;
                                The old that is strong does not wither,
                                Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                                From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                                A light from the shadows shall spring;
                                Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                                The crownless again shall be king."
                                ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



                              • Sheila
                                But they evolve themselves...every living thing does Sheila
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 4, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  But they evolve themselves...every living thing does
                                  Sheila
                                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some
                                  > British enclosure?
                                  >
                                  > Mary Christine
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                  > michaels4gardens@... writes:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > this -is --pure "poo" how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved
                                  > species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"
                                  > --just amazing -
                                  >
                                • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                  I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable... everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 4, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable...

                                    everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature. Mutation is constantly happening-- even without radiation... of course there is good mutation and bad mutation...

                                    In the past evolution was directed (Not possible to control it, until GMOs) by humans working with nature. (Aside from doggie and kitty evolution of course ;-)  .) I doubt if even heritage breeds are all that much like their ancestors, but early humans understood that if you breed sustainability out of a cow, you only make more work for yourself.

                                    Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                     

                                    probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
                                     
                                    Mary Christine
                                     
                                    In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
                                     

                                    this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                                    --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                                    From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                                     
                                    But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: gardenchick1949@...
                                    Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                                    Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                                     

                                    There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                                    Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                                    Gail
                                    Certified Horticulturist



                                    From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                                     
                                    As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: permalove@...
                                    Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                                    Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                                     

                                    Hi there (faerie)
                                     
                                    While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                                    I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                                     
                                    Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                                     
                                    Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                                     
                                    In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                                    I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                                    Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                                    Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                                     
                                    If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                                     
                                    If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                                     
                                    If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                                    Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                                     
                                    Peace,
                                     
                                    Steve
                                     
                                     
                                    --
                                    "All that is gold does not glitter,
                                    Not all those who wander are lost;
                                    The old that is strong does not wither,
                                    Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                                    From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                                    A light from the shadows shall spring;
                                    Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                                    The crownless again shall be king."
                                    ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



                                  • john willis
                                    Problem is - we forced the evolution and nowadays it is done purely for monetary gain. It is the wild animals who are really evolving. Lots of love to all -
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 4, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Problem is - we forced the "evolution" and nowadays it is done purely for monetary gain.

                                      It is the wild animals who are really evolving.

                                      Lots of love to all - John.


                                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: bekki@...
                                      Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:05:54 -0400
                                      Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                                       
                                      I understood this to mean-- there are are no unevolving species because evolution is inevitable...

                                      everything in creation is always evolving. It is our nature. Mutation is constantly happening-- even without radiation... of course there is good mutation and bad mutation...

                                      In the past evolution was directed (Not possible to control it, until GMOs) by humans working with nature. (Aside from doggie and kitty evolution of course ;-)  .) I doubt if even heritage breeds are all that much like their ancestors, but early humans understood that if you breed sustainability out of a cow, you only make more work for yourself.

                                      Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                       

                                      probably wild deer? or remnants of primordial types of cattle in some British enclosure?
                                       
                                      Mary Christine
                                       
                                      In a message dated 4/4/2011 4:09:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, michaels4gardens@... writes:
                                       
                                      this -is --pure "poo"  how can one think that way, -- so --only un-evolved species have "good" manure, --I can't think of any "un-evolving species"   --just amazing -

                                      --- On Sun, 4/3/11, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:

                                      From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                      Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost
                                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:28 AM

                                       
                                      But human-bred animals are totally unnatural and therefore are on a par with junk food; their poo cannot be healthy because they are forced mutations of wild animals and live a lifestyle forced on them by us.


                                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: gardenchick1949@...
                                      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 05:59:14 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: compost

                                       

                                      There is nothing wrong with using human-bred livestock manure in compost - as long as the animals are fed their natural diet & not given antibiotics, etc.
                                      Raising them naturally is the key to good compost, as well as having good meat to eat occasionally and good nutrition. 
                                      Gail
                                      Certified Horticulturist



                                      From: john willis <wilf1946@...>
                                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 12:34:26 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [pfaf] re: compost

                                       
                                      As usual the whole point of "vegan" is missed. It is not just a diet - it is a world without human- bred livestock. So in my book wild animal shit is ok but farm stuff is not. 



                                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: permalove@...
                                      Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:12:18 -0300
                                      Subject: [pfaf] re: compost

                                       

                                      Hi there (faerie)
                                       
                                      While I am not going to criticise the vegan lifestyle choice in a public forum, there is a clear distinction between vegan people and the contents of compost. 
                                      I'm sure Annie does indeed make good compost, but you certainly don't have to be vegan (or put only "vegan" ingredients into your compost) in order to achieve good compost.  In fact, even though all the ingredients they put in might be vegan, the pile sure isn't vegan by the time it's ready.
                                       
                                      Annie does make a good point that the diversity of inputs is important (she cites vegetable and fruit cuttings, garden cuttings, household organic scraps, leaves, used hay from rabbits, guinea pigs and hens).  A light input of animal  acraps, if you eat meat, is not out of order, and the compost will gratefully accept it.  However, if you have poultry, chickens can eat just about anything you throw to them.  I don't feed chicken to my chickens - not that they wouldn't eat it.
                                       
                                      Nature and her soils are not vegan - as long as the content is varied the soil life and other inhabitants of the area will immediately come and tuck in.  Omnivores such as rats, mice, birds and centipedes, wood lice, millipedes, fungi, soil bacteria, protozoa, etc, all consume, break down and mix the contents together.  Most of these will regularly contribute their bodies to the mixture as well.
                                       
                                      In short, your troubles are likely stemming from some other issue.  As Michael points out, animal manure shouldn't be a problem. 
                                      I will add that a good nitrogen/carbon ratio is important, along with a fairly diverse input.
                                      Nitrogen should be balanced by carbon to a ratio of 1:25 (or 30).  Especially with manures (nitrogenous), we need to try to catch the nitrogen before it escapes into the surrounding environment.  The particles can escape into both air and water, and sequestering it with carbon will prevent both of these. 
                                      Choose a readily available local carbon source.. Since you have animals, I guess you might harvest hay to feed them sometimes (i.e. - winter).  Spare/old hay is an excellent carbon source. 
                                       
                                      If a person doesnt have their own carbon, they can usually find it nearby.  This source will depend on the locality.
                                       
                                      If you live near a forest, contact a local landowner or a  reputable forest management service and use wood chips.  If you live near a grass farmer (someone who grows pasture for their animals), obtain hay/straw and mix your manure and kitchen scraps with that. 
                                       
                                      If you keep your pile a manageable size, you can turn it by hand (pitchfork). 
                                      Some operations, such as commercial mushroom growers, make long "windrows" and turn it by machine - however, a kitchen garden shouldn't need such a large scale exercise. 
                                       
                                      Peace,
                                       
                                      Steve
                                       
                                       
                                      --
                                      "All that is gold does not glitter,
                                      Not all those who wander are lost;
                                      The old that is strong does not wither,
                                      Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                                      From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                                      A light from the shadows shall spring;
                                      Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                                      The crownless again shall be king."
                                      ~  J.R.R. Tolkien





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