Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: fennel seeds and broader conversation

Expand Messages
  • Jonathan Teller-Elsberg
    Steve, I d like to respond to one comment you made: Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find ... While good medicine can
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 8, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:

      "Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."

      While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is, unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are common:

      A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)

      B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous users that they encounter 

      C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time passing)

      D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine

      E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.

      I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.

      Cheers,
      Jonathan

      --
      "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon
    • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
      Jonathan, I agree that the situation re: good medicine can be complex, however I cannot agree with this statement: But if good medicine were that easily
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 8, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Jonathan, I agree that the situation re: good medicine can be complex, however I cannot agree with this statement:

        But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.


        The money and power that are often behind allopathic medicine are inevitably used to discredit alternative approaches to wellness, and this disinformation is a highly effective approach. I work with an herb that is exceedingly effective in treating respiratory illness of all kinds, regardless of pathogen. Yet I have seen clients who have repeatedly used it to their immediate benefit "forget" to use it when a respiratory condition was coming on, because they are so conditioned to allopathic resolutions for their illnesses. They are always chagrined when I ask if they had been taking it, because they realize that they could have saved themselves great discomfort; yet it will often require a half dozen misses of this kind before they "get" it, and reach for the proven herbal medicine.


        Jonathan Teller-Elsberg wrote:
         

        Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:


        "Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."

        While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is, unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are common:

        A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)

        B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous users that they encounter 

        C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time passing)

        D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine

        E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.

        I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.

        Cheers,
        Jonathan

        --
        "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon
      • travelerinthyme
        This is SO true! Self-medicating with herbs can damage your liver, kidneys, and heart, cause abortions, and screw up your metabolism if you overdose or
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 9, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          This is SO true! Self-medicating with herbs can damage your liver, kidneys, and heart, cause abortions, and screw up your metabolism if you overdose or combine certain things. Like taking St. John's Wort and going out in the sunshine....who knew? I put wild pennyroyal in my personal insect repellant, but can't share it with women of childbearing age. Sorrel has oxalic acid that screws up your kidneys. Mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like aspirin or tylenol, can do great damage to your liver and brain.

          A friend selling Herbalife asked me to translate the ingredients on the packages, and while "all natural", they were mostly sugar, speed, and diuretics, which will indeed make you a skinny nutcase.

          All these power drinks with reishi mushrooms are nothing much but speed, might as well take a dex and get on about your biz.

          "All natural" is the most abused phrase of our generation. Anthrax and e-coli are "organic" after all.

          Mother Nature eats her young, beware!

          ~Traveler in Thyme

          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Teller-Elsberg <jelsberg@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:
          >
          > "Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find
          > > relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."
          >
          >
          > While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is,
          > unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are
          > common:
          >
          > A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action
          > (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which
          > may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)
          >
          > B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good
          > for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult
          > to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering
          > that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous
          > users that they encounter
          >
          > C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously
          > produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for
          > example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time
          > passing)
          >
          > D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually
          > useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided
          > action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system
          > brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine
          >
          > E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.
          >
          > I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal
          > and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good
          > health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be
          > no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes
          > between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Jonathan
          >
          > --
          > "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same."
          > -Les Lanyon
          >
        • Infowolf1@aol.com
          I must disagree a tiny bit, St. Johnswort only gives you sunlight sensitivity in large ongoing dosing and large ongoing sunshine. Reishi may be stimulant, but
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 9, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I must disagree a tiny bit, St. Johnswort only gives you sunlight sensitivity in large
            ongoing dosing and large ongoing sunshine. Reishi may be stimulant, but it has a
            lot more to it than just that.
             
            Mary Christine
             
            In a message dated 3/9/2011 6:41:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, traveler.in.thyme@... writes:
             


            This is SO true! Self-medicating with herbs can damage your liver, kidneys, and heart, cause abortions, and screw up your metabolism if you overdose or combine certain things. Like taking St. John's Wort and going out in the sunshine....who knew? I put wild pennyroyal in my personal insect repellant, but can't share it with women of childbearing age. Sorrel has oxalic acid that screws up your kidneys. Mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like aspirin or tylenol, can do great damage to your liver and brain.

            A friend selling Herbalife asked me to translate the ingredients on the packages, and while "all natural", they were mostly sugar, speed, and diuretics, which will indeed make you a skinny nutcase.

            All these power drinks with reishi mushrooms are nothing much but speed, might as well take a dex and get on about your biz.

            "All natural" is the most abused phrase of our generation. Anthrax and e-coli are "organic" after all.

            Mother Nature eats her young, beware!

            ~Traveler in Thyme

            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Teller-Elsberg <jelsberg@...> wrote:
            >
            > Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:
            >
            > "Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find
            > > relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."
            >
            >
            > While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is,
            > unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are
            > common:
            >
            > A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action
            > (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which
            > may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)
            >
            > B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good
            > for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult
            > to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering
            > that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous
            > users that they encounter
            >
            > C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously
            > produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for
            > example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time
            > passing)
            >
            > D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually
            > useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided
            > action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system
            > brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine
            >
            > E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.
            >
            > I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal
            > and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good
            > health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be
            > no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes
            > between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Jonathan
            >
            > --
            > "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same."
            > -Les Lanyon
            >

          • Gail Lloyd
            Pharmaceuticals can do a good job damaging your liver, brain, & other toxic side effects all by themselves, without the help of anything else. Gail
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 9, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Pharmaceuticals can do a good job damaging your liver, brain, & other toxic side effects all by themselves, without the help of anything else.
              Gail


              From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 8:06:42 AM
              Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: fennel seeds and broader conversation - dangerous herbs!

               

              I must disagree a tiny bit, St. Johnswort only gives you sunlight sensitivity in large
              ongoing dosing and large ongoing sunshine. Reishi may be stimulant, but it has a
              lot more to it than just that.
               
              Mary Christine
               
              In a message dated 3/9/2011 6:41:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, traveler.in.thyme@... writes:
               


              This is SO true! Self-medicating with herbs can damage your liver, kidneys, and heart, cause abortions, and screw up your metabolism if you overdose or combine certain things. Like taking St. John's Wort and going out in the sunshine....who knew? I put wild pennyroyal in my personal insect repellant, but can't share it with women of childbearing age. Sorrel has oxalic acid that screws up your kidneys. Mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like aspirin or tylenol, can do great damage to your liver and brain.

              A friend selling Herbalife asked me to translate the ingredients on the packages, and while "all natural", they were mostly sugar, speed, and diuretics, which will indeed make you a skinny nutcase.

              All these power drinks with reishi mushrooms are nothing much but speed, might as well take a dex and get on about your biz.

              "All natural" is the most abused phrase of our generation. Anthrax and e-coli are "organic" after all.

              Mother Nature eats her young, beware!

              ~Traveler in Thyme

              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Teller-Elsberg <jelsberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:
              >
              > "Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find
              > > relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."
              >
              >
              > While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is,
              > unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are
              > common:
              >
              > A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action
              > (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which
              > may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)
              >
              > B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good
              > for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult
              > to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering
              > that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous
              > users that they encounter
              >
              > C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously
              > produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for
              > example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time
              > passing)
              >
              > D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually
              > useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided
              > action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system
              > brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine
              >
              > E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.
              >
              > I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal
              > and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good
              > health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be
              > no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes
              > between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Jonathan
              >
              > --
              > "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same."
              > -Les Lanyon
              >


            • Infowolf1@aol.com
              I think herbs take longer to do this kind of damage. Its just that they are not always harmless. A very few ARE harmless. Mary Christine In a message dated
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 9, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I think herbs take longer to do this kind of damage. Its just that they are not always
                harmless. A very few ARE harmless.
                 
                Mary Christine
                 
                In a message dated 3/9/2011 8:27:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, gardenchick1949@... writes:
                 

                Pharmaceuticals can do a good job damaging your liver, brain, & other toxic side effects all by themselves, without the help of anything else.
                Gail


                From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 8:06:42 AM
                Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: fennel seeds and broader conversation - dangerous herbs!

                 

                I must disagree a tiny bit, St. Johnswort only gives you sunlight sensitivity in large
                ongoing dosing and large ongoing sunshine. Reishi may be stimulant, but it has a
                lot more to it than just that.
                 
                Mary Christine
                 
                In a message dated 3/9/2011 6:41:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, traveler.in.thyme@... writes:
                 


                This is SO true! Self-medicating with herbs can damage your liver, kidneys, and heart, cause abortions, and screw up your metabolism if you overdose or combine certain things. Like taking St. John's Wort and going out in the sunshine....who knew? I put wild pennyroyal in my personal insect repellant, but can't share it with women of childbearing age. Sorrel has oxalic acid that screws up your kidneys. Mixing herbs with pharmaceuticals, like aspirin or tylenol, can do great damage to your liver and brain.

                A friend selling Herbalife asked me to translate the ingredients on the packages, and while "all natural", they were mostly sugar, speed, and diuretics, which will indeed make you a skinny nutcase.

                All these power drinks with reishi mushrooms are nothing much but speed, might as well take a dex and get on about your biz.

                "All natural" is the most abused phrase of our generation. Anthrax and e-coli are "organic" after all.

                Mother Nature eats her young, beware!

                ~Traveler in Thyme

                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Teller-Elsberg <jelsberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > Steve, I'd like to respond to one comment you made:
                >
                > "Good medicine isimmediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find
                > > relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting."
                >
                >
                > While good medicine can sometimes be self-evident, the situation is,
                > unfortunately, much more complicated than that. Many other occurrences are
                > common:
                >
                > A) that good medicine is not easily self-evident in its beneficial action
                > (for example, because it takes a long time for the benefits to emerge, which
                > may make it difficult to identify the source of the benefits)
                >
                > B) that good medicine is good for some people, but not for others, or good
                > for a person one time but not another time, for reasons that are difficult
                > to determine, and therefore it is difficult for people newly considering
                > that medicine to weigh the positive and negative opinions from previous
                > users that they encounter
                >
                > C) that medicine which is evidently good for one problem simultaneously
                > produces negative side effects, which in turn might not be self-evident (for
                > example, because the negative side effects only emerge after a long time
                > passing)
                >
                > D) that medicine which seem to have been self-evidently good are actually
                > useless, because the sick person actually recovered either from the un-aided
                > action of their immune system alone or from the boost to their immune system
                > brought about by the placebo effect of the "good" medicine
                >
                > E) other possibilities I'm not thinking of.
                >
                > I don't wish to disagree with you about the need for people to have legal
                > and practical access to the "gifts of nature" that can promote our good
                > health. But if good medicine were that easily identifiable, there would be
                > no disputes between medical providers of any approach, let alone disputes
                > between different traditions of herbal and other naturopathic care.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Jonathan
                >
                > --
                > "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same."
                > -Les Lanyon
                >


              • Steve
                Hi Jonathan, I take your point, and yes, my statement was simplistic vis-a-vis the physical effects of medicines upon each individual on a case-by-case basis.
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 9, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Jonathan,
                   
                  I take your point, and yes, my statement was simplistic vis-a-vis the physical effects of medicines upon each individual on a case-by-case basis.  
                  I was referring to situations where someone attempts to extract properties in such a way that the properties are lost in the process. 
                  For example, tinctures are popular vehicles for medicines, but if you try to make a tincture of marshmallow to extract the mucilage, you will precipitate the mucilage out of solution and render it ineffective.
                  It will become evident over a period of time that this is so, since the mucilage is not soothing the irritation. 
                   
                  I agree in principle with most of the points you made, and admittedly they seem logical, but one could also see that if you took only those arguments into account you might never try any medicine at all. 
                  My path is really an attempt to make much of this a moot discussion. 
                  In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our bodies, I believe that you can experience healing from simply being in close proximity with these living beings. 
                  It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some people, but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we just don't slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how they act upon us. 
                  There are certainly those who feel strongly that a physical extraction process is necessary for obtaining good medicine, whereas disciplines such as homeopathy tend to blur those lines - after all, just how much of the original extract could be in each dose? 
                   
                  It could be compared to a doctor's "bedside manner" if you like.  There are clear examples of patients who recover because they needed to have someone actively communing with them during their convalescence, and no matter what remedy they were given they never got better until that took place. 
                   
                  I have to say that Bekki's point about the propaganda campaign against "alternative" medicine is valid, and I will go further and say that much of our valuable informational heritage has been lost - and is being lost - as a result of this line in the sand that we've drawn between the physical and the spirit.  This can actually be traced back to not so long ago when a political agreement was made that science would govern the mind / body and the church would govern the spirit.  For the sake of our very existence we must reunite our beings and reclaim ourselves from these entrenched forms of control.  
                   
                  Whew, ok.. rant over for now, I guess. 
                   
                  Peace, 
                   
                  Steve.

                  --
                  "All that is gold does not glitter,
                  Not all those who wander are lost;
                  The old that is strong does not wither,
                  Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
                  From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
                  A light from the shadows shall spring;
                  Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
                  The crownless again shall be king."
                  ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

                • Elaine Sommers
                  Steve said: In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our bodies, I believe that you can experience healing from simply being in close
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Steve said:
                    "In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our bodies, I believe that you can experience healing from simply being in close proximity with these living beings. 
                    It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some people, but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we just don't slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how they act upon us."

                    I agree with this statement although scientifically I don't think it can be proven, yet. What was it that Hamlet said about there being more in heaven and earth than we can ever dream of? Just because 'big science' hasn't worked it out yet doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

                    Blessings,
                    Elaine.

                    "We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
                      Goethe
                     
                    "Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
                      Jane Wagner
                     
                    "Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
                      Blaise Pascal
                     
                    ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                     
                    from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982








                  • fran k
                    When I put a plaster on my finger it tends to make the pain less. Also when my kids hurt themselves playing, id hold them close, wouldnt talk would just be one
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      When I put a plaster on my finger it tends to make the pain less. Also when my kids hurt themselves playing, id hold them close, wouldnt talk would just be one with them. somehow it seemed to help them heal. I think its like the placebo effect in the mind, and they did find out placebo makes the brain create the healing chemicals needed. Maybe being more than one heals, sharing heals, sharing the pain sharing the work, and just sharing. Well, Sharing per se, whatever per se means would definately heal the world, I know that.

                      On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:29 GMT Elaine Sommers wrote:

                      >
                      >Steve said:
                      >"In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our
                      >bodies, I believe that you can experience healing from simply being in
                      >close proximity with these living beings.
                      >It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some
                      >people, but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we
                      >just don't slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how
                      >they act upon us."
                      >
                      >I agree with this statement although scientifically I don't think it can be proven, yet. What was it that Hamlet said about there being more in heaven and earth than we can ever dream of? Just because 'big science' hasn't worked it out yet doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
                      >
                      >Blessings,
                      >Elaine.
                      >
                      >"We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
                      >
                      > Goethe
                      >
                      >"Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
                      >
                      > Jane Wagner
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >"Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
                      >
                      > Blaise Pascal
                      >
                      >". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                      >
                      >from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Jonathan Teller-Elsberg
                      Hi Steve, If that s what you call a rant, then rant away! I agree with pretty much all you ve said and any parts I might quibble with, I d have to be in a
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hi Steve,


                        If that's what you call a "rant," then rant away! I agree with pretty much all you've said and any parts I might quibble with, I'd have to be in a much feistier mood to bother.

                        In solidarity with those supporting a vibrant, living Earth,
                        Jonathan

                        >>>>> Posted by: "Steve" permalove@...   icculus2000

                        Wed Mar 9, 2011 7:57 pm (PST)

                        Hi Jonathan,

                        I take your point, and yes, my statement was simplistic vis-a-vis the
                        physical effects of medicines upon each individual on a case-by-case
                        basis.
                        I was referring to situations where someone attempts to extract properties
                        in such a way that the properties are lost in the process.
                        For example, tinctures are popular vehicles for medicines, but if you try to
                        make a tincture of marshmallow to extract the mucilage, you will precipitate
                        the mucilage out of solution and render it ineffective.
                        It will become evident over a period of time that this is so, since the
                        mucilage is not soothing the irritation.

                        I agree in principle with most of the points you made, and admittedly they
                        seem logical, but one could also see that if you took only those arguments
                        into account you might never try any medicine at all.
                        My path is really an attempt to make much of this a moot discussion.
                        In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our bodies, I
                        believe that you can experience healing from simply being in close proximity
                        with these living beings.
                        It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some people,
                        but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we just don't
                        slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how they act upon us.

                        There are certainly those who feel strongly that a physical extraction
                        process is necessary for obtaining good medicine, whereas disciplines such
                        as homeopathy tend to blur those lines - after all, just how much of the
                        original extract could be in each dose?

                        It could be compared to a doctor's "bedside manner" if you like. There are
                        clear examples of patients who recover because they needed to have someone
                        actively communing with them during their convalescence, and no matter what
                        remedy they were given they never got better until that took place.

                        I have to say that Bekki's point about the propaganda campaign against
                        "alternative" medicine is valid, and I will go further and say that much of
                        our valuable informational heritage has been lost - and is being lost - as a
                        result of this line in the sand that we've drawn between the physical and
                        the spirit. This can actually be traced back to not so long ago when a
                        political agreement was made that science would govern the mind / body and
                        the church would govern the spirit. For the sake of our very existence we
                        must reunite our beings and reclaim ourselves from these entrenched forms of
                        control.

                        Whew, ok.. rant over for now, I guess.

                        Peace,

                        Steve.

                        --
                        "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon
                      • Infowolf1@aol.com
                        okay, Steve, can you list the herbs that cannot be made into a tincture without losing what is needed? I have seen marshmallow tincture for sale. There may be
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          okay, Steve, can you list the herbs that cannot be made into a tincture without
                          losing what is needed? I have seen marshmallow tincture for sale. There may
                          be things in it besides the mucilage that is useful, but obviously it is the
                          soothing mucilage that a user normally needs.
                           
                          Mary Christine
                           
                          In a message dated 3/10/2011 1:09:47 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jelsberg@... writes:
                           

                          Hi Steve,


                          If that's what you call a "rant," then rant away! I agree with pretty much all you've said and any parts I might quibble with, I'd have to be in a much feistier mood to bother.

                          In solidarity with those supporting a vibrant, living Earth,
                          Jonathan

                          >>>>> Posted by: "Steve" permalove@...   icculus2000

                          Wed Mar 9, 2011 7:57 pm (PST)

                          Hi Jonathan,

                          I take your point, and yes, my statement was simplistic vis-a-vis the
                          physical effects of medicines upon each individual on a case-by-case
                          basis.
                          I was referring to situations where someone attempts to extract properties
                          in such a way that the properties are lost in the process.
                          For example, tinctures are popular vehicles for medicines, but if you try to
                          make a tincture of marshmallow to extract the mucilage, you will precipitate
                          the mucilage out of solution and render it ineffective.
                          It will become evident over a period of time that this is so, since the
                          mucilage is not soothing the irritation.

                          I agree in principle with most of the points you made, and admittedly they
                          seem logical, but one could also see that if you took only those arguments
                          into account you might never try any medicine at all.
                          My path is really an attempt to make much of this a moot discussion.
                          In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our bodies, I
                          believe that you can experience healing from simply being in close proximity
                          with these living beings.
                          It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some people,
                          but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we just don't
                          slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how they act upon us.

                          There are certainly those who feel strongly that a physical extraction
                          process is necessary for obtaining good medicine, whereas disciplines such
                          as homeopathy tend to blur those lines - after all, just how much of the
                          original extract could be in each dose?

                          It could be compared to a doctor's "bedside manner" if you like. There are
                          clear examples of patients who recover because they needed to have someone
                          actively communing with them during their convalescence, and no matter what
                          remedy they were given they never got better until that took place.

                          I have to say that Bekki's point about the propaganda campaign against
                          "alternative" medicine is valid, and I will go further and say that much of
                          our valuable informational heritage has been lost - and is being lost - as a
                          result of this line in the sand that we've drawn between the physical and
                          the spirit. This can actually be traced back to not so long ago when a
                          political agreement was made that science would govern the mind / body and
                          the church would govern the spirit. For the sake of our very existence we
                          must reunite our beings and reclaim ourselves from these entrenched forms of
                          control.

                          Whew, ok.. rant over for now, I guess.

                          Peace,

                          Steve.

                          --
                          "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon

                        • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                          Steve-- you said many good things in your post, but thank you especially for this! ... As a shamanic healer who has long worked with the plants as spiritual
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Steve-- you said many good things in your post, but thank you especially
                            for this!

                            Steve wrote:
                            >
                            > In addition to benefitting from physically taking them into our
                            > bodies, I believe that you can experience healing from simply being in
                            > close proximity with these living beings.
                            > It's likely that this will elicit a passionate response from some
                            > people, but I suspect many of us are in such a rush these days that we
                            > just don't slow down long enough to recognise these energies and how
                            > they act upon us.

                            As a shamanic healer who has long worked with the plants as spiritual
                            beings, and with their physical presences in the garden, I never make
                            medicine without invoking the spirits of the plants themselves. Many who
                            have planted a garden and worked with growing plants will attest to the
                            healing and love generated in those sacred spaces. This is not
                            airy-fairy new ageism, but the blessing of being a creature living on
                            earth in community with the rest of creation. Our lives depend on and
                            are integrally connected to nature, and if we forget that we imperil our
                            continued existence on the planet.

                            > I have to say that Bekki's point about the propaganda campaign against
                            > "alternative" medicine is valid, and I will go further and say that
                            > much of our valuable informational heritage has been lost - and is
                            > being lost - as a result of this line in the sand that we've drawn
                            > between the physical and the spirit. This can actually be traced back
                            > to not so long ago when a political agreement was made that science
                            > would govern the mind / body and the church would govern the spirit.
                            > For the sake of our very existence we must reunite our beings and
                            > reclaim ourselves from these entrenched forms of control.

                            Again, I am TOTALLY on the same page. Thank you for expressing it so well.

                            > Whew, ok.. rant over for now, I guess.
                            > Peace,
                            > Steve.
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                            > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                            > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                            > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                            >
                            > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                            > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                            > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                            > /The crownless again shall be king."/
                            >
                            > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                            >
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.