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RE: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole

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  • Elaine Sommers
    Can I just say, as someone studying herbalism and nutrition, that I agree with all of this. The subject is so huge it could go on and on. Just a note on
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 6 9:54 AM
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      Can I just say, as someone studying herbalism and nutrition, that I agree with all of this. The subject is so huge it could go on and on.
       
      Just a note on keeping herbs available and legal - I can't see how they can reasonably prevent people growing their own medicines in the form of herbs. You'd have to ban so many plants it would be like a police state, heaven forbid! I did have to send away to the USA to get hold of some lobelia tincture which is quite annoying, but I'm sure I could grow my own if I really wanted to. (I live in the UK)
       
      Blessings,
      Elaine.

      "We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
        Goethe
       
      "Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
        Jane Wagner
       
      "Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
        Blaise Pascal
       
      ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
       
      from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982




       

      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      From: Infowolf1@...
      Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:06:09 -0500
      Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole

       
      yes, but a lot of people don't think like that. They figure if its "natural" it is safe.
       
      Like Bekki assumes that any announcement of carcinogenic problems in some
      active constituents of a herb is just propaganda from "the powers that be."
      The effects of these constituents don't work at small or infrequent dosing,
       
      An issue in that post she is reacting to, is use on an infant.
       
      but a herbal non "powers that be" source noted that echinacea is so
      safe, that you do not have to worry about overdosing EVEN ON AN INFANT,
      obviously therefore others are not so safe for a small and sensitive person.
       
      Dill is referenced as safe for infants. it has been in use for generations.
       
      If Bekki would check on herbalist books, she would find all sorts of
      contraindications for some herbs for some conditions, for nursing,
      for pregnancy, and some are a mixed bag of trick on the latter.
       
      some herbs are not safe for pets, others are. the principle of chemotherapy,
      dose high enough to kill the disease but low enough not to kill the patient,
      could indeed be an issue in some cases.
       
      I remember years ago, I beat an infection that would normally have taken
      a couple of bottles of antibiotics, using myrrh, goldenseal and something
      else. That was a whole bottle of myrrh pills in a few days.
       
      I felt oddly sick after that, like I had a minor poisoning problem. But it
      worked.
       
      A general rule also, is that you do not use echinacea to prevent colds,
      because sure, it boosts the immune system, but that is not how it
      cures. It inhibits a huge range of bacteria and a few virus in vitro.
      So it should only be taken if you are getting sick.
       
      Ginseng is an absolute no-no if you are already getting sick, or have
      some chronic low level infection, because it will boost any living
      organism it gets its molecules on, incl. pathogens.
       
      I learned that the hard way, stumbled on the fact in a book I hadn't
      read yet, after I got over the results.
       
      Herbs MUST be kept legal because you can get treatment at no
      waiting time for far less money than with regular medicine and
      sometimes for things that medicine doesn't deal with well, such
      as viruses. A great number of herbs for curing things are antiviral,
      a category that regular medicine is barely dealing with and at
      enormous cost.
       
      But one needs to take the time and money to study these things
      carefully.
       
      The mockery given about Vitamin C a long time ago, was because
      it was ignored that to cure anything you need at least 10,000 mg
      all at once, maybe more than once a day. That what you don't need
      is excreted means nothing, it is what it is doing in your body before
      it is excreted that counts.
       
      Mary Christine
       
      In a message dated 3/6/2011 5:06:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, permalove@... writes:
       

      Mary Christine,
       
      I noticed a recurring theme in your recent post on the actions of herbs; several times you mention how herbal activity could interact negatively with prescription drugs.  I think the solution here is pretty clear: don't mix herbs and prescriptions unless one is certain of their combined effects. 
       
      Bekki stated
      "I think the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of
      herbs-- at the same time they promote many drugs that do far more harm."
       
      In my opinion, both of these points are true (at least until we start talking about the deadliest of plants, mushrooms, etc). 
      This is not to say that herbs can't hurt you, but the corporate establishment does indeed campaign ACTIVELY to promote fear of natural remedies, so the first point is true.  And you only need to examine the fine print on almost any pharmaceutical prescription to be horrified at the list of side effects. 
      It is well known that single constituent prescriptin drugs cause side effects not experienced from the use of the source plant.  This is because the synergistic effect of the complete profile of constituents often cancels out any side effects caused by any one compound.  The wisdom of mother nature is clearly more comprehensive than that of any laboratory team. 
       
      Peace,
       
      Steve.

      --
      "All that is gold does not glitter,
      Not all those who wander are lost;
      The old that is strong does not wither,
      Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
      From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
      A light from the shadows shall spring;
      Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
      The crownless again shall be king."
      ~  J.R.R. Tolkien



    • fran k
      I wonder if its just the selling of them thatll be illegal. If your into free and the gift economy then maybe Itll further promote that. About time too. We
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 6 10:59 AM
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        I wonder if its just the selling of them thatll be illegal. If your into free and the gift economy then maybe Itll further promote that. About time too. We create abundance instead of only valuing lack of things. See the positive. They maybe shooting themselves in the foot. Opening a can of abundance.

        Theyre only doing it because they care about us though. Looking after our interests so we dont get electric shocks, fall off a roof, get pinned down under a car. Regulation, its good for us. Everything will be totally regulated soon. Something to look forward to, isnt it. Well, I just cant wait till we can buy clean air, not this free polluted stuff weve got to breathe. Also dont you think its unsightly all that washing people dangle on ropes outside their dwellings?

        Futures bright. Future is us fat little jelly blobs inside electric little self contained cars called Daleks.with all that cyber stuff to play with, taking our orders from those high celebrities.

        .! :)

        On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:54 GMT Elaine Sommers wrote:

        >
        >Can I just say, as someone studying herbalism and nutrition, that I agree with all of this. The subject is so huge it could go on and on.
        >
        >Just a note on keeping herbs available and legal - I can't see how they can reasonably prevent people growing their own medicines in the form of herbs. You'd have to ban so many plants it would be like a police state, heaven forbid! I did have to send away to the USA to get hold of some lobelia tincture which is quite annoying, but I'm sure I could grow my own if I really wanted to. (I live in the UK)
        >
        >Blessings,
        >Elaine.
        >
        >"We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
        > Goethe
        >
        >"Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
        > Jane Wagner
        >
        >"Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
        > Blaise Pascal
        >
        >". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
        >
        >from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        >From: Infowolf1@...
        >Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:06:09 -0500
        >Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >yes, but a lot of people don't think like that. They figure if its "natural" it is safe.
        >
        >Like Bekki assumes that any announcement of carcinogenic problems in some
        >active constituents of a herb is just propaganda from "the powers that be."
        >The effects of these constituents don't work at small or infrequent dosing,
        >
        >An issue in that post she is reacting to, is use on an infant.
        >
        >but a herbal non "powers that be" source noted that echinacea is so
        >safe, that you do not have to worry about overdosing EVEN ON AN INFANT,
        >obviously therefore others are not so safe for a small and sensitive person.
        >
        >Dill is referenced as safe for infants. it has been in use for generations.
        >
        >If Bekki would check on herbalist books, she would find all sorts of
        >contraindications for some herbs for some conditions, for nursing,
        >for pregnancy, and some are a mixed bag of trick on the latter.
        >
        >some herbs are not safe for pets, others are. the principle of chemotherapy,
        >dose high enough to kill the disease but low enough not to kill the patient,
        >could indeed be an issue in some cases.
        >
        >I remember years ago, I beat an infection that would normally have taken
        >a couple of bottles of antibiotics, using myrrh, goldenseal and something
        >else. That was a whole bottle of myrrh pills in a few days.
        >
        >I felt oddly sick after that, like I had a minor poisoning problem. But it
        >worked.
        >
        >A general rule also, is that you do not use echinacea to prevent colds,
        >because sure, it boosts the immune system, but that is not how it
        >cures. It inhibits a huge range of bacteria and a few virus in vitro.
        >So it should only be taken if you are getting sick.
        >
        >Ginseng is an absolute no-no if you are already getting sick, or have
        >some chronic low level infection, because it will boost any living
        >organism it gets its molecules on, incl. pathogens.
        >
        >I learned that the hard way, stumbled on the fact in a book I hadn't
        >read yet, after I got over the results.
        >
        >Herbs MUST be kept legal because you can get treatment at no
        >waiting time for far less money than with regular medicine and
        >sometimes for things that medicine doesn't deal with well, such
        >as viruses. A great number of herbs for curing things are antiviral,
        >a category that regular medicine is barely dealing with and at
        >enormous cost.
        >
        >But one needs to take the time and money to study these things
        >carefully.
        >
        >The mockery given about Vitamin C a long time ago, was because
        >it was ignored that to cure anything you need at least 10,000 mg
        >all at once, maybe more than once a day. That what you don't need
        >is excreted means nothing, it is what it is doing in your body before
        >it is excreted that counts.
        >
        >Mary Christine
        >
        >
        >In a message dated 3/6/2011 5:06:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, permalove@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >Mary Christine,
        >
        >I noticed a recurring theme in your recent post on the actions of herbs; several times you mention how herbal activity could interact negatively with prescription drugs. I think the solution here is pretty clear: don't mix herbs and prescriptions unless one is certain of their combined effects.
        >
        >Bekki stated
        >"I think the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of
        >herbs-- at the same time they promote many drugs that do far more harm."
        >
        >In my opinion, both of these points are true (at least until we start talking about the deadliest of plants, mushrooms, etc).
        >This is not to say that herbs can't hurt you, but the corporate establishment does indeed campaign ACTIVELY to promote fear of natural remedies, so the first point is true. And you only need to examine the fine print on almost any pharmaceutical prescription to be horrified at the list of side effects.
        >It is well known that single constituent prescriptin drugs cause side effects not experienced from the use of the source plant. This is because the synergistic effect of the complete profile of constituents often cancels out any side effects caused by any one compound. The wisdom of mother nature is clearly more comprehensive than that of any laboratory team.
        >
        >Peace,
        >
        >Steve.
        >--
        >
        >
        >"All that is gold does not glitter,
        >Not all those who wander are lost;
        >The old that is strong does not wither,
        >Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
        >
        >From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
        >A light from the shadows shall spring;
        >Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
        >
        >The crownless again shall be king."
        >~ J.R.R. Tolkien
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Steve
        Mary Christine, I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki s statement than she meant to
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 7 6:39 AM
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          Mary Christine,
           
          I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant to convey.  She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of herbs."  I believe that the two points can be made independantly of each other.
          Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.  
           
          As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect deserved by any potent energy in nature.
           
          It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong direction.  If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.  Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find relief.  So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting. 
           
          The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents; this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items.  This cannot be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature. 
           
          I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
           
          Peace,
           
          Steve.

          --
          "All that is gold does not glitter,
          Not all those who wander are lost;
          The old that is strong does not wither,
          Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
          From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
          A light from the shadows shall spring;
          Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
          The crownless again shall be king."
          ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

        • Infowolf1@aol.com
          well, when someone says that about carcinogenic warnings on herbs, which same warnings are in lots of herb books, I can only assume she is not well read, and
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 7 8:14 AM
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            well, when someone says that about carcinogenic warnings on herbs, which
            same warnings are in lots of herb books, I can only assume she is not
            well read, and is jumping to conclusions herself.
             
            Bekki, you want to clarify? Were you of the opinion that herbs are harmless
            regardless of dosing or whatever?
             
            it does sound that way, I mean, why else ascribe any concerns about
            active principles to the powers that be that often do not want us that
            independent of their money grubbing doctors and pharmaceutical
            companies. But that doesn't mean they make this stuff up, only that
            they exploit it and exaggerate it.
             
            Mary Christine
             
            In a message dated 3/7/2011 6:39:31 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, permalove@... writes:
             

            Mary Christine,
             
            I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant to convey.  She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of herbs."  I believe that the two points can be made independantly of each other.
            Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.  
             
            As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect deserved by any potent energy in nature.
             
            It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong direction.  If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.  Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they find relief.  So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is self-correcting. 
             
            The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents; this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items.  This cannot be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature. 
             
            I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
             
            Peace,
             
            Steve.

            --
            "All that is gold does not glitter,
            Not all those who wander are lost;
            The old that is strong does not wither,
            Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
            From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
            A light from the shadows shall spring;
            Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
            The crownless again shall be king."
            ~  J.R.R. Tolkien

          • Sapho
            ... The European Union already has legislations in place to limit what we can grow. They don´t ban anything really, they just set such high standards and high
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 7 3:15 PM
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              > On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:54 GMT Elaine Sommers wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >Can I just say, as someone studying herbalism and nutrition, that I agree with all of this. The subject is so huge it could go on and on.
              > >
              > >Just a note on keeping herbs available and legal - I can't see how they can reasonably prevent people growing their own medicines in the form of herbs. You'd have to ban so many plants it would be like a police state, heaven forbid! I did have to send away to the USA to get hold of some lobelia tincture which is quite annoying, but I'm sure I could grow my own if I really wanted to. (I live in the UK)
              > >
              > >Blessings,
              > >Elaine.


              The European Union already has legislations in place to limit what we can grow. They don´t ban anything really, they just set such high standards and high prices for certification, so that small seed-companies or those selling rare varieties cant afford the fees for the speciality seeds. The EU has these lists of varieties that are ok.

              "The EU seed catalogue system

              Each member state of the European Union is required to maintain a national catalogue (or "list" as it is called in some countries) of officially recognised varieties which may be freely marketed in its territory. The national catalogues are then collated together by the European Commission into what is known as the EU Common Catalogue. Varieties which are not listed in a national or the Common Catalogue are, technically speaking, not allowed to be marketed in the EU."

              Read more on Grain.org:
              http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343


              The Catalogs and Legislation:
              http://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/propagation/catalogues/catalogues_leg_en.htm

              So it can get difficult getting speciality seeds. We should start seedbanks and seed exchange mechanisms... Now!

              with regards,
              Sapha
            • Matthew Sleigh
              I always try to use herbs collected locally, or unprocessed herbs (there is an old herbalist s adage that the herbs you need will come to you, I am always
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 7 4:21 PM
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                I always try to use herbs collected locally, or unprocessed herbs (there is an old herbalist's adage that the herbs you need will come to you, I am always looking at the plants wherever I am anyway)

                The history of processed herbal medicines is cluttered with adulterants - even the most basic commercially packaged cooking herbs and spices are often old, or collected at the wrong season, and sometimes misidentified. Cinnamon is often cassia, basils that must be used fresh are sold as cooking basil. I have purchased many different brands of chilli powder and can't remember ever buying any that was good.

                Even the most respected herb companies are at the mercy of their suppliers - often based thousands of miles away, it cannot be easy to check identity and freshness for every batch of powder that arrives at their factories, and good sample data is necessary for comparison.
                 
                All the best,
                Matthew
              • Elaine Sommers
                The European Union already has legislations in place to limit what we can grow. They don t ban anything really, they just set such high standards and high
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 8 1:09 AM
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                  "The European Union already has legislations in place to limit what we can grow. They don't ban anything really, they just set such high standards and high prices for certification, so that small seed-companies or those selling rare varieties cant afford the fees for the speciality seeds. The EU has these lists of varieties that are ok."
                   
                  Have you heard of The Real Seed Company? They 'sell' more unusual and older seed varieties. Because of the European legislation they charge 1p per order for a year's club membership, so that in fact they are selling seeds to a 'seed club'. They are completely organic and encourage own seed saving and indeed, give instructions on how to do so.
                   
                  http://www.realseeds.co.uk/terms.html
                   
                  They are not allowed to sell outside of the European Union but do offer alternative companies run along the same lines in other parts of the world.
                   
                  Blessings,
                  Elaine.
                   



                  "We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
                    Goethe
                   
                  "Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
                    Jane Wagner
                   
                  "Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
                    Blaise Pascal
                   
                  ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                   
                  from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982




                   


                   
                • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                  Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am not saying all
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 10 5:40 PM
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                    Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get
                    into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am
                    not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be
                    people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very safe.

                    I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                    which for years have been promoted as a health food. There are lots of
                    things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                    cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.

                    What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                    properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                    demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                    from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                    dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                    ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.

                    A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                    ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were
                    allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent
                    species again.

                    Bekki

                    Steve wrote:
                    > Mary Christine,
                    > I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I
                    > feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant
                    > to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could
                    > cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us
                    > regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be
                    > made independantly of each other.
                    > Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                    > As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the
                    > same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect
                    > deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                    > It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can
                    > rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I
                    > believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong
                    > direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active
                    > constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for
                    > medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.
                    > Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they
                    > find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is
                    > self-correcting.
                    > The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation
                    > thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a
                    > sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents;
                    > this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot
                    > be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an
                    > artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                    > I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any
                    > other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                    > Peace,
                    > Steve.
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                    > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                    > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                    > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                    >
                    > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                    > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                    > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                    > /The crownless again shall be king."/
                    >
                    > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                    >
                    >
                  • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                    Mary Christine: My comment was specifically in response to these comments: Estragole is a lager component of tarragon (especially) and basil
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 10 5:54 PM
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                      Mary Christine: My comment was specifically in response to these comments:

                      Estragole is a lager component of tarragon (especially) and basil
                      > essential oils than it is of fennel./*The carcinogenic risks from
                      > Estragole in fennel are probably close to those from orange juice and
                      > tomatoes.*/

                      > Fennel should not be used excessively, especially by breastfeeding
                      > mothers and small children, but the risks are said to diminish
                      > exponentially with the dose.
                      >
                      > /*Even at the doses at which fennel is used medicinally, Estragole
                      > levels are, at most, 100th of those at which there might be a
                      > significant cancer risk.*/



                      Infowolf1@... wrote:
                      >
                      > well, when someone says that about carcinogenic warnings on herbs, which
                      > same warnings are in lots of herb books, I can only assume she is not
                      > well read, and is jumping to conclusions herself.
                      > Bekki, you want to clarify? Were you of the opinion that herbs are
                      > harmless
                      > regardless of dosing or whatever?
                      > it does sound that way, I mean, why else ascribe any concerns about
                      > active principles to the powers that be that often do not want us that
                      > independent of their money grubbing doctors and pharmaceutical
                      > companies. But that doesn't mean they make this stuff up, only that
                      > they exploit it and exaggerate it.
                      > Mary Christine
                      > In a message dated 3/7/2011 6:39:31 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      > permalove@... writes:
                      >
                      > Mary Christine,
                      > I have no argument with what you said based on your experience,
                      > but I feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than
                      > she meant to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no
                      > herbs could cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to
                      > frighten us regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the
                      > two points can be made independantly of each other.
                      > Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant
                      > by it.
                      > As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on
                      > the same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the
                      > respect deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                      > It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing
                      > body can rightfully regulate responsible individual use of
                      > nature's gifts. I believe that even standardisation can be a step
                      > in the wrong direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't
                      > extract the active constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to
                      > that person for medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate
                      > their knowledge base. Good medicine is immediately apparent to
                      > the sufferer, because they find relief. So remedial/therapeutic
                      > medicinal quality is self-correcting.
                      > The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the
                      > conversation thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand
                      > it is to be a sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials
                      > and constituents; this will, by its nature, criminalize all
                      > unlisted items. This cannot be allowed to carry on, since it is
                      > based on human ego and an artificial sense of the holistic balance
                      > of nature.
                      > I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or
                      > any other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                      > Peace,
                      > Steve.
                      >
                      > --
                      >
                      > /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                      > /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                      > /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                      > /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                      >
                      > /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                      > /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                      > /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                      > /The crownless again shall be king."/
                      >
                      > ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                      >
                      >
                    • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                      I grow many of the herbs I use (70 medicinal and counting), and depend on a respected wholesaler to get the few that I can t grow but think are necessary.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 10 6:00 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I grow many of the herbs I use (70 medicinal and counting), and depend
                        on a respected wholesaler to get the few that I can't grow but think are
                        necessary. Luckily there are good sources out there for seed-- people
                        who pride themselve on going to the source.

                        Matthew Sleigh wrote:
                        >
                        > I always try to use herbs collected locally, or unprocessed herbs
                        > (there is an old herbalist's adage that the herbs you need will come
                        > to you, I am always looking at the plants wherever I am anyway)
                        >
                        >
                        > The history of processed herbal medicines is cluttered with
                        > adulterants - even the most basic commercially packaged cooking herbs
                        > and spices are often old, or collected at the wrong season, and
                        > sometimes misidentified. Cinnamon is often cassia, basils that must be
                        > used fresh are sold as cooking basil. I have purchased many different
                        > brands of chilli powder and can't remember ever buying any that was good.
                        >
                        > Even the most respected herb companies are at the mercy of their
                        > suppliers - often based thousands of miles away, it cannot be easy to
                        > check identity and freshness for every batch of powder that arrives at
                        > their factories, and good sample data is necessary for comparison.
                        >
                        > All the best,
                        > Matthew
                        >
                      • Griselda Mussett
                        I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on patented (ie synthetic)
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 11 1:47 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on patented (ie synthetic) substances. (Isolated or multivitamins are an example of this - worth millions and millions of dollars worldwide). Natural compounds not only offer the corporates no money but represent a real threat to their profits. So food and herbs are regarded by the pharmaceutical sector as 'bad' and as we know have been subject to extensive and global lobbying damage- the list of their targets is colossal and makes absolutely no sense from an ordinary person's point of view.   
                          The traditional understanding of food as the source of our health is under vicious attack - food is now seen as a means of making profit, or more recently as a matter of security! Well, yes, but how far will this go? For hundreds or thousands of years it was a matter of growing your food and medicine in your garden or local farm, then in the 20th c the criminal law came into it (when the EU banned traditional varieties of food plants) and maybe now it's edging towards barbed wire and searchlights. Agh, I'm sorry I went there.
                          At some point people need to question how all this has come about and fight for our 'common' or 'garden' herbs, fruits, vegetables, berries, etc. One practical way to start to get back to sanity would be to demand that supermarkets display the date on which any given product was picked. Also asking them to explain exactly what they mean by the word 'organic' on their labelling. 
                          The wisdom, knowledge and expertise in groups like this will need to be spread - ie unpicking this confusing area re: natural/safe for instance.
                          It's a huge task to educate people but this group offers hope.
                          Thanks
                          Griselda

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:40, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:

                          Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get 
                          into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am 
                          not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be 
                          people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very safe.

                          I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans, 
                          which for years have been promoted as a health lots of 
                          things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws, 
                          cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.

                          What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used 
                          properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been 
                          demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money 
                          from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and 
                          dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for 
                          ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.

                          A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against 
                          ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were 
                          allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent 
                          species again.

                          Bekki

                          Steve wrote:
                          Mary Christine,
                          I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I 
                          feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant 
                          to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could 
                          cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us 
                          regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be 
                          made independantly of each other.
                          Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                          As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the 
                          same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect 
                          deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                          It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can 
                          rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I 
                          believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong 
                          direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active 
                          constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for 
                          medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base. 
                          Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they 
                          find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is 
                          self-correcting.
                          The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation 
                          thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a 
                          sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents; 
                          this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot 
                          be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an 
                          artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                          I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any 
                          other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                          Peace,
                          Steve.

                          -- 

                            /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                            /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                            /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                            /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./

                            /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                            /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                            /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                            /The crownless again shall be king."/

                          ~ J.R.R. Tolkien




                          ------------------------------------

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                        • Infowolf1@aol.com
                          yes, so many people, usually thinking they are conservatives and following Biblical principles of government and economics (due to lectures by people who
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 11 2:43 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            yes, so many people, usually thinking they are conservatives and following Biblical
                            principles of government and economics (due to lectures by people who don't read
                            The Bible that well and who learned from ditto or worse, liars), scream about BIG
                            GOVERNMENT!
                             
                            But The Bible contains very pointed condemnations in the Prophets, some in the
                            Torah and in the NT against the oppressive rich. And St. Paul in Romans says
                            that the purpose of government is to punish evil and reward good.
                             
                            that is on the face of it, interventionist.
                             
                            After all, government is making the inconvenient laws. But this is because government
                            is being run by big business, etc.
                             
                            And anything that interferes with this, any laws that would roll back and cap prices
                            on medical goods and services or interfere with frankenfoods or other stuff, is
                            denounced as COMMUNISM! or at least SOCIALISM! and sometimes, FASCISM!
                             
                            But the problem is the corporations and the price gouging as normative, money
                            grubbing "caring professions" and so forth.
                             
                            Mary Christine Erikson
                             
                            In a message dated 3/11/2011 1:44:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, griselda1@... writes:
                             

                            I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on patented (ie synthetic) substances. (Isolated or multivitamins are an example of this - worth millions and millions of dollars worldwide). Natural compounds not only offer the corporates no money but represent a real threat to their profits. So food and herbs are regarded by the pharmaceutical sector as 'bad' and as we know have been subject to extensive and global lobbying damage- the list of their targets is colossal and makes absolutely no sense from an ordinary person's point of view.   
                            The traditional understanding of food as the source of our health is under vicious attack - food is now seen as a means of making profit, or more recently as a matter of security! Well, yes, but how far will this go? For hundreds or thousands of years it w as a matter of growing your food and medicine in your garden or local farm, then in the 20th c the criminal law came into it (when the EU banned traditional varieties of food plants) and maybe now it's edging towards barbed wire and searchlights. Agh, I'm sorry I went there.
                            At some point people need to question how all this has come about and fight for our 'common' or 'garden' herbs, fruits, vegetables, berries, etc. One practical way to start to get back to sanity would be to demand that supermarkets display the date on which any given product was picked. Also asking them to explain exactly what they mean by the word 'organic' on their labelling. 
                            The wisdom, knowledge and expertise in groups like this will need to be spread - ie unpicking this confusing area re: natural/safe for instance.
                            It's a huge task to educate people but this group offers hope.
                            Thanks
                            Griselda

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:40, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:

                            Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get 
                            into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am 
                            not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be 
                            people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very safe.

                            I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans, < /span>
                            which for years have been promoted as a health lots of 
                            things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws, 
                            cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.

                            What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used 
                            properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been 
                            demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money 
                            from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and 
                            dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for 
                            ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.

                            A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against 
                            ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were 
                            allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent 
                            species again.

                            Bekki

                            Steve wrote:
                            Mar y Christine,
                            I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I 
                            feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant 
                            to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could 
                            cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us 
                            regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be 
                            made independantly of each other.
                            Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                            As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the 
                            same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect 
                            deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                            It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can 
                            rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I 
                            believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong 
                            direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active 
                            constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for 
                            medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base. 
                            Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they 
                            find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is 
                            s elf-correcting.
                            The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation 
                            thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a 
                            sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents; 
                            this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot 
                            be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an 
                            artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                            I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any 
                            other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                            Peace,
                            Steve.

                            -- 

                              /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                              /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                              /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                              /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./

                              /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                              /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                              /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                              /The crownless again shall be king."/

                            ~ J.R.R. Tolkien




                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/

                            <*> Your email settings:
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                            Sent from my iPhone

                          • fran k
                            Stop selling it then, like its all a commodity.(aimed at us) Get the nurture ethos. The mothering ethos. The feminine ethos. Thats the doing. We can be mothers
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 11 2:52 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Stop selling it then, like its all a commodity.(aimed at us)

                              Get the nurture ethos. The mothering ethos. The feminine ethos. Thats the doing. We can be mothers and motherers. For motherer read nurturer. Nurturers is it. Positive creativity enhancing all and letting things be, themselves, giving them what they need, allowing them to be in ecologies that nurture there needs, letting them go, letting them fly.

                              Read Genevieve Vaughans work at www.gift-economy.com

                              Shes written A brilliant book on it. Free on line, called For-giving. And also see free on line Charles Eisensteins brilliant book
                              Called Ascent of humanity.
                              Mind opening, surprising, staggering.

                              For a Moneyless society, a gift society is it. A doing for the sake of the doing -society, not a doing for the sake of what you can get out of it -society.

                              And Permaculture. Permanent culture.best practise.with its 3 ethos.

                              Our chains are our bills.

                              Free land, free resource, equals no bills.

                              That and us sharing our those resources.

                              Then Locking it so none can come in and change it.

                              Living out of the monoculture battery chicken pecking cities.

                              Into human scale large but less than 150 human scale family size villages. (See the William Dunbar number, our group size, as to how many people its physically possible to have real human relationships with, how many people its physically possible to give a birthday card too, and its relation to alienation)

                              Scare cities and alien nation! We live in! Loving the harm that befalls others! Because its not happening to us. We actually do this!

                              United diversity is it. All fed.

                              (How to get from here to there? Well youve got to pay for your life anyway, so why not pay it to be a different life. And how do we unite?)

                              Its great that free works on line, and we need to do it in real life too. But things stop us. Find out what they are. Release those and we will.

                              :) frank

                              On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:47 GMT Griselda Mussett wrote:

                              >I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on patented (ie synthetic) substances. (Isolated or multivitamins are an example of this - worth millions and millions of dollars worldwide). Natural compounds not only offer the corporates no money but represent a real threat to their profits. So food and herbs are regarded by the pharmaceutical sector as 'bad' and as we know have been subject to extensive and global lobbying damage- the list of their targets is colossal and makes absolutely no sense from an ordinary person's point of view.
                              >The traditional understanding of food as the source of our health is under vicious attack - food is now seen as a means of making profit, or more recently as a matter of security! Well, yes, but how far will this go? For hundreds or thousands of years it was a matter of growing your food and medicine in your garden or local farm, then in the 20th c the criminal law came into it (when the EU banned traditional varieties of food plants) and maybe now it's edging towards barbed wire and searchlights. Agh, I'm sorry I went there.
                              >At some point people need to question how all this has come about and fight for our 'common' or 'garden' herbs, fruits, vegetables, berries, etc. One practical way to start to get back to sanity would be to demand that supermarkets display the date on which any given product was picked. Also asking them to explain exactly what they mean by the word 'organic' on their labelling.
                              >The wisdom, knowledge and expertise in groups like this will need to be spread - ie unpicking this confusing area re: natural/safe for instance.
                              >It's a huge task to educate people but this group offers hope.
                              >Thanks
                              >Griselda
                              >
                              >Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              >On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:40, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get
                              >> into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am
                              >> not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be
                              >> people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very safe.
                              >>
                              >> I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                              >> which for years have been promoted as a health lots of
                              >> things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                              >> cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.
                              >>
                              >> What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                              >> properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                              >> demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                              >> from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                              >> dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                              >> ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.
                              >>
                              >> A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                              >> ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were
                              >> allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent
                              >> species again.
                              >>
                              >> Bekki
                              >>
                              >> Steve wrote:
                              >>> Mary Christine,
                              >>> I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I
                              >>> feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant
                              >>> to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could
                              >>> cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us
                              >>> regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be
                              >>> made independantly of each other.
                              >>> Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                              >>> As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the
                              >>> same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect
                              >>> deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                              >>> It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can
                              >>> rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I
                              >>> believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong
                              >>> direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active
                              >>> constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for
                              >>> medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.
                              >>> Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they
                              >>> find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is
                              >>> self-correcting.
                              >>> The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation
                              >>> thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a
                              >>> sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents;
                              >>> this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot
                              >>> be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an
                              >>> artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                              >>> I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any
                              >>> other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                              >>> Peace,
                              >>> Steve.
                              >>>
                              >>> --
                              >>>
                              >>> /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                              >>> /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                              >>> /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                              >>> /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                              >>>
                              >>> /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                              >>> /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                              >>> /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                              >>> /The crownless again shall be king."/
                              >>>
                              >>> ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                            • Infowolf1@aol.com
                              I agree, there is proliferation mindlessly of stuff that is good or harmless for some but dangerous for others. And the pharma companies are demonizing herbs
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 11 3:22 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I agree, there is proliferation mindlessly of stuff that is good or
                                harmless for some but dangerous for others.
                                 
                                And the pharma companies are demonizing herbs to gain money
                                and monopoly power, if not as an individual company more like
                                as a class of companies.
                                 
                                But as for informed decisions and protecting us against ourselves,
                                most people don't have the time or inclination to get informed
                                enough to make good decisions, and yes, we DO need protecting
                                from ourselves.
                                 
                                But not from money grubbing people committed by economic
                                interest and habit of thought and acceptance as gospel the
                                standard science and testing routines.
                                 
                                You can never underestimate the stupidity, ignorance, and
                                bad taste of the American public.
                                 
                                But the solution for this would be free required reading (govt.
                                production would be the easiest) of information on herbs
                                and dosing and uses and contraindications compiled from
                                scientific and old time information sources.
                                 
                                Knowledge you may take for granted among your family
                                and friends, and common sense, may be exotic to the
                                vast majority.
                                 
                                If you grew up in a context that preserves great great
                                grandma's cures down the family generations, well and
                                good.
                                 
                                but most did not.
                                 
                                Peace in Christ, and sorry if I offended anyone,
                                 
                                Mary Christine
                                 
                                In a message dated 3/11/2011 12:05:37 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bekki@... writes:
                                I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                                which for years have been promoted as a health food. There are lots of
                                things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                                cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.

                                What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                                properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                                demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                                from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                                dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                                ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.

                                A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                                ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices.
                              • Gail Lloyd
                                Mary Christine, I like your comments.  One good source for self medicating is Materia Medica... good sites are http://www.elixirs.com/medica.htm &
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 11 4:25 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Mary Christine, I like your comments.  One good source for self medicating is Materia Medica... good sites are http://www.elixirs.com/medica.htm & http://www.swsbm.com/ManualsMM/MatMed5.pdf 
                                  Remember that moderation and information are the keys to self-medicating.
                                  I think it pays to try to keep yourself in the best of health in the first place, like Hippocrates said "let food be thy medicine"... not only is it very wise, but it's also very safe (if you eat the right foods).   It's hard to do in this day and age when you go to the grocery store & it's filled w/refined foods; produce grown with pesticides and synthetic fertilizers; and meat, dairy & eggs from animals & fish that are raised on antibiotics & fed an unnatural diet, etc.  The best thing to do (in my opinion) is educate yourself on organic growing of your own fruit & veggies, and grow as much as you're able (including herbs) in the amount of space that you have (it would even be beneficial to pick it right off the tree/vine & eat without washing).  If you have enough space to have your own chickens and goat(s), that would be best, but otherwise buy free-range meat, dairy, and eggs.  We don't need meat very often, but we do need it or dairy occasionally for the nutrients they contain; and free-range eggs on a regular basis; also wild-caught, low-mercury fish more often, fermented foods, green foods (chloropyll), sea veggies (kelp, etc), wild foods/weeds (more omega-3s, etc), and more raw food in our diets.  Try to live more like our ancestors did 100 years ago and you'll be much healthier. 
                                  Remember variation, moderation in all things, and a balanced diet (good protein, good carbs, and good fats with each meal).
                                  Gail


                                  From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Fri, March 11, 2011 4:22:38 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole

                                   

                                  I agree, there is proliferation mindlessly of stuff that is good or
                                  harmless for some but dangerous for others.
                                   
                                  And the pharma companies are demonizing herbs to gain money
                                  and monopoly power, if not as an individual company more like
                                  as a class of companies.
                                   
                                  But as for informed decisions and protecting us against ourselves,
                                  most people don't have the time or inclination to get informed
                                  enough to make good decisions, and yes, we DO need protecting
                                  from ourselves.
                                   
                                  But not from money grubbing people committed by economic
                                  interest and habit of thought and acceptance as gospel the
                                  standard science and testing routines.
                                   
                                  You can never underestimate the stupidity, ignorance, and
                                  bad taste of the American public.
                                   
                                  But the solution for this would be free required reading (govt.
                                  production would be the easiest) of information on herbs
                                  and dosing and uses and contraindications compiled from
                                  scientific and old time information sources.
                                   
                                  Knowledge you may take for granted among your family
                                  and friends, and common sense, may be exotic to the
                                  vast majority.
                                   
                                  If you grew up in a context that preserves great great
                                  grandma's cures down the family generations, well and
                                  good.
                                   
                                  but most did not.
                                   
                                  Peace in Christ, and sorry if I offended anyone,
                                   
                                  Mary Christine
                                   
                                  In a message dated 3/11/2011 12:05:37 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bekki@... writes:
                                  I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                                  which for years have been promoted as a health food. There are lots of
                                  things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                                  cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.

                                  What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                                  properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                                  demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                                  from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                                  dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                                  ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.

                                  A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                                  ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices.

                                • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                  Yes!, Griselda, I totally agree. It is unfortunate that corporate power is growing. Here in the states that translates into all kinds of big changes being
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 11 6:38 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yes!, Griselda, I totally agree. It is unfortunate that corporate power
                                    is growing. Here in the states that translates into all kinds of big
                                    changes being implemented that we, the people have lobbied hard against.
                                    We should not have to work so hard to defend the basic right to grow the
                                    crops that we eat and that provide our medicine. Now even the internet,
                                    which is an information highway for all of us, is being threatened. My
                                    approach is to turn on as many of my neighbors as I can to growing their
                                    own mewdicinals and food. Luckily there is a lot of interest in my
                                    community, which is a hotbed of sustainability in southeast Ohio.

                                    Also I realized from reading this that before I posted, some words got
                                    deleted from my post... should have read
                                    > I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                                    > which for years have been promoted as a health food.

                                    Griselda Mussett wrote:
                                    > I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework
                                    > dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on
                                    > patented (ie synthetic) substances. (Isolated or multivitamins are an
                                    > example of this - worth millions and millions of dollars worldwide).
                                    > Natural compounds not only offer the corporates no money but represent
                                    > a real threat to their profits. So food and herbs are regarded by the
                                    > pharmaceutical sector as 'bad' and as we know have been subject to
                                    > extensive and global lobbying damage- the list of their targets is
                                    > colossal and makes absolutely no sense from an ordinary person's point
                                    > of view.
                                    > The traditional understanding of food as the source of our health is
                                    > under vicious attack - food is now seen as a means of making profit,
                                    > or more recently as a matter of security! Well, yes, but how far will
                                    > this go? For hundreds or thousands of years it was a matter of growing
                                    > your food and medicine in your garden or local farm, then in the 20th
                                    > c the criminal law came into it (when the EU banned traditional
                                    > varieties of food plants) and maybe now it's edging towards barbed
                                    > wire and searchlights. Agh, I'm sorry I went there.
                                    > At some point people need to question how all this has come about and
                                    > fight for our 'common' or 'garden' herbs, fruits, vegetables, berries,
                                    > etc. One practical way to start to get back to sanity would be to
                                    > demand that supermarkets display the date on which any given product
                                    > was picked. Also asking them to explain exactly what they mean by the
                                    > word 'organic' on their labelling.
                                    > The wisdom, knowledge and expertise in groups like this will need to
                                    > be spread - ie unpicking this confusing area re: natural/safe for
                                    > instance.
                                    > It's a huge task to educate people but this group offers hope.
                                    > Thanks
                                    > Griselda
                                    >
                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                    >
                                    > On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:40, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                    > <bekki@...
                                    > <mailto:bekki@...>> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get
                                    >> into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am
                                    >> not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be
                                    >> people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very
                                    >> safe.
                                    >>
                                    >> I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                                    >> which for years have been promoted as a health lots of
                                    >> things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                                    >> cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.
                                    >>
                                    >> What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                                    >> properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                                    >> demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                                    >> from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                                    >> dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                                    >> ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.
                                    >>
                                    >> A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                                    >> ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were
                                    >> allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent
                                    >> species again.
                                    >>
                                    >> Bekki
                                    >>
                                    >> Steve wrote:
                                    >>> Mary Christine,
                                    >>> I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I
                                    >>> feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant
                                    >>> to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could
                                    >>> cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us
                                    >>> regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be
                                    >>> made independantly of each other.
                                    >>> Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                                    >>> As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the
                                    >>> same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect
                                    >>> deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                                    >>> It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can
                                    >>> rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I
                                    >>> believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong
                                    >>> direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active
                                    >>> constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for
                                    >>> medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.
                                    >>> Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they
                                    >>> find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is
                                    >>> self-correcting.
                                    >>> The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation
                                    >>> thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a
                                    >>> sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents;
                                    >>> this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot
                                    >>> be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an
                                    >>> artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                                    >>> I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any
                                    >>> other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                                    >>> Peace,
                                    >>> Steve.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> --
                                    >>>
                                    >>> /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                                    >>> /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                                    >>> /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                                    >>> /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                                    >>>
                                    >>> /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                                    >>> /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                                    >>> /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                                    >>> /The crownless again shall be king."/
                                    >>>
                                    >>> ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> ------------------------------------
                                    >>
                                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> <mailto:pfaf-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT
                                    no offense taken! we are all obviously here because we love the plant world and have found plants to be helpful and healing co-habitants on the planet...
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 11 6:59 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      no offense taken! we are all obviously here because we love the plant
                                      world and have found plants to be helpful and healing co-habitants on
                                      the planet...

                                      Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I agree, there is proliferation mindlessly of stuff that is good or
                                      > harmless for some but dangerous for others.
                                      > And the pharma companies are demonizing herbs to gain money
                                      > and monopoly power, if not as an individual company more like
                                      > as a class of companies.
                                      > But as for informed decisions and protecting us against ourselves,
                                      > most people don't have the time or inclination to get informed
                                      > enough to make good decisions, and yes, we DO need protecting
                                      > from ourselves.
                                      > But not from money grubbing people committed by economic
                                      > interest and habit of thought and acceptance as gospel the
                                      > standard science and testing routines.
                                      > You can never underestimate the stupidity, ignorance, and
                                      > bad taste of the American public.
                                      > But the solution for this would be free required reading (govt.
                                      > production would be the easiest) of information on herbs
                                      > and dosing and uses and contraindications compiled from
                                      > scientific and old time information sources.
                                      > Knowledge you may take for granted among your family
                                      > and friends, and common sense, may be exotic to the
                                      > vast majority.
                                      > If you grew up in a context that preserves great great
                                      > grandma's cures down the family generations, well and
                                      > good.
                                      > but most did not.
                                      > Peace in Christ, and sorry if I offended anyone,
                                      > Mary Christine
                                      > In a message dated 3/11/2011 12:05:37 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                      > bekki@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or
                                      > soybeans,
                                      > which for years have been promoted as a health food. There are
                                      > lots of
                                      > things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain
                                      > saws,
                                      > cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.
                                      >
                                      > What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when
                                      > used
                                      > properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                                      > demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of
                                      > money
                                      > from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                                      > dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                                      > ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.
                                      >
                                      > A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                                      > ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices.
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Elaine Sommers
                                      I really wish it were possible Frank. I agree about our chains. It is how I feel about life. Money causes so many problems. I m not going to say anymore
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 11 11:02 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I really wish it were possible Frank. I agree about our chains. It is how I feel about life. Money causes so many problems.

                                        I'm not going to say anymore because it is off-topic. I just felt that I should tell you I felt solidarity for what you said.

                                        Blessings,
                                        Elaine.

                                        "We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
                                          Goethe
                                         
                                        "Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
                                          Jane Wagner
                                         
                                        "Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
                                          Blaise Pascal
                                         
                                        ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                                         
                                        from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982






                                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: frank_bowman@...
                                        Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:52:13 +0000
                                        Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole

                                         
                                        Stop selling it then, like its all a commodity.(aimed at us)

                                        Get the nurture ethos. The mothering ethos. The feminine ethos. Thats the doing. We can be mothers and motherers. For motherer read nurturer. Nurturers is it. Positive creativity enhancing all and letting things be, themselves, giving them what they need, allowing them to be in ecologies that nurture there needs, letting them go, letting them fly.

                                        Read Genevieve Vaughans work at www.gift-economy.com

                                        Shes written A brilliant book on it. Free on line, called For-giving. And also see free on line Charles Eisensteins brilliant book
                                        Called Ascent of humanity.
                                        Mind opening, surprising, staggering.

                                        For a Moneyless society, a gift society is it. A doing for the sake of the doing -society, not a doing for the sake of what you can get out of it -society.

                                        And Permaculture. Permanent culture.best practise.with its 3 ethos.

                                        Our chains are our bills.

                                        Free land, free resource, equals no bills.

                                        That and us sharing our those resources.

                                        Then Locking it so none can come in and change it.

                                        Living out of the monoculture battery chicken pecking cities.

                                        Into human scale large but less than 150 human scale family size villages. (See the William Dunbar number, our group size, as to how many people its physically possible to have real human relationships with, how many people its physically possible to give a birthday card too, and its relation to alienation)

                                        Scare cities and alien nation! We live in! Loving the harm that befalls others! Because its not happening to us. We actually do this!

                                        United diversity is it. All fed.

                                        (How to get from here to there? Well youve got to pay for your life anyway, so why not pay it to be a different life. And how do we unite?)

                                        Its great that free works on line, and we need to do it in real life too. But things stop us. Find out what they are. Release those and we will.

                                        :) frank

                                        On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:47 GMT Griselda Mussett wrote:

                                        >I like this discussion. The international legal-capitalist framework dictates that investors and corporates can only make profits on patented (ie synthetic) substances. (Isolated or multivitamins are an example of this - worth millions and millions of dollars worldwide). Natural compounds not only offer the corporates no money but represent a real threat to their profits. So food and herbs are regarded by the pharmaceutical sector as 'bad' and as we know have been subject to extensive and global lobbying damage- the list of their targets is colossal and makes absolutely no sense from an ordinary person's point of view.
                                        >The traditional understanding of food as the source of our health is under vicious attack - food is now seen as a means of making profit, or more recently as a matter of security! Well, yes, but how far will this go? For hundreds or thousands of years it was a matter of growing your food and medicine in your garden or local farm, then in the 20th c the criminal law came into it (when the EU banned traditional varieties of food plants) and maybe now it's edging towards barbed wire and searchlights. Agh, I'm sorry I went there.
                                        >At some point people need to question how all this has come about and fight for our 'common' or 'garden' herbs, fruits, vegetables, berries, etc. One practical way to start to get back to sanity would be to demand that supermarkets display the date on which any given product was picked. Also asking them to explain exactly what they mean by the word 'organic' on their labelling.
                                        >The wisdom, knowledge and expertise in groups like this will need to be spread - ie unpicking this confusing area re: natural/safe for instance.
                                        >It's a huge task to educate people but this group offers hope.
                                        >Thanks
                                        >Griselda
                                        >
                                        >Sent from my iPhone
                                        >
                                        >On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:40, Bekki Shining Bearheart LMT <bekki@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> Steve, I thank you for clarifying this-- I really have no wish to get
                                        >> into a debate. But I feel compelled to respond. You are correct, I am
                                        >> not saying all herbs are completely safe, or that there might not be
                                        >> people who might have reactions even to herbs that are generally very safe.
                                        >>
                                        >> I know people who are deathly allergic to sunflower seeds or soybeans,
                                        >> which for years have been promoted as a health lots of
                                        >> things out there that can kill us! if improperly used (like chain saws,
                                        >> cars, and on and on...) It's about being responsible for ourselves.
                                        >>
                                        >> What I find frustrating and frightening is that herbs-- which when used
                                        >> properly have been healing humans for thousands of years--have been
                                        >> demonized by pharmaceutical companies, who stand to make a lot of money
                                        >> from prescription drugs, which, as you have said, can have many and
                                        >> dangerous side effects. Again, it' about being responsible for
                                        >> ourselves. Educating ourselves. Educating each other.
                                        >>
                                        >> A lot of regulating is done in the name of protecting us against
                                        >> ourselves, as if we can't make informed choices. Perhaps if we were
                                        >> allowed to do that, the human race would evolve into an intelligent
                                        >> species again.
                                        >>
                                        >> Bekki
                                        >>
                                        >> Steve wrote:
                                        >>> Mary Christine,
                                        >>> I have no argument with what you said based on your experience, but I
                                        >>> feel that perhaps you read more into Bekki's statement than she meant
                                        >>> to convey. She didn't actually say that she thought no herbs could
                                        >>> cause harm, only that "the powers that be wish to frighten us
                                        >>> regarding the safety of herbs." I believe that the two points can be
                                        >>> made independantly of each other.
                                        >>> Perhaps the best thing is to ask Bekki to clarify what she meant by it.
                                        >>> As far as the powerful actions of herbs is concerned I am fully on the
                                        >>> same page as you; herbs work, and we must treat them with the respect
                                        >>> deserved by any potent energy in nature.
                                        >>> It should be clear to any thinking person that no governing body can
                                        >>> rightfully regulate responsible individual use of nature's gifts. I
                                        >>> believe that even standardisation can be a step in the wrong
                                        >>> direction. If someone processes an herb and doesn't extract the active
                                        >>> constituents, it won't work; nobody will go to that person for
                                        >>> medicine and they will be forced to reevaluate their knowledge base.
                                        >>> Good medicine is immediately apparent to the sufferer, because they
                                        >>> find relief. So remedial/therapeutic medicinal quality is
                                        >>> self-correcting.
                                        >>> The regulation I believe we are referring to later in the conversation
                                        >>> thread is Codex Alimentarius, which, as I understand it is to be a
                                        >>> sort of "white list" of allowed plants, materials and constituents;
                                        >>> this will, by its nature, criminalize all unlisted items. This cannot
                                        >>> be allowed to carry on, since it is based on human ego and an
                                        >>> artificial sense of the holistic balance of nature.
                                        >>> I fully support any and all non-violent action against this (or any
                                        >>> other) constrictive regulation of nature-based medicine.
                                        >>> Peace,
                                        >>> Steve.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> --
                                        >>>
                                        >>> /"All that is gold does not glitter,/
                                        >>> /Not all those who wander are lost;/
                                        >>> /The old that is strong does not wither,/
                                        >>> /Deep roots are not reached by the frost./
                                        >>>
                                        >>> /From the ashes a fire shall be woken,/
                                        >>> /A light from the shadows shall spring;/
                                        >>> /Renewed shall be blade that was broken,/
                                        >>> /The crownless again shall be king."/
                                        >>>
                                        >>> ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> ------------------------------------
                                        >>
                                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Sent from my iPhone
                                        >
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>


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