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re: Forest Garden Resources

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  • Jonathan Teller-Elsberg
    Hi Nova, The best resources for finding plants in the US and Canada are the two source inventories published by Seed Savers Exchange: Fruit, Berry, and Nut
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 21, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Nova,

      The best resources for finding plants in the US and Canada are the two source inventories published by Seed Savers Exchange:

      and

      The FBN inventory was recently updated. I think the Garden Seed inventory is a few years old so not quite as up to date, but still useful. Each lists every plant/seed available by every mail-order nursery in the country--or at least very close to every nursery. The books are really impressive. Under each plant name and description is a list of the nurseries that sell that particular plant.

      One Green World does have one of the most extensive offerings of woody plants interesting to permaculturists. Other nurseries with diverse offerings are 

      Two nurseries with shorter lists, but likely of interest to permaculturists in North America, are 
      and Permaculture Nursery at Food Forest Farm http://permaculturenursery.com/. Of course there are many other good sources. These are the ones that I'm most familiar with.

      Seed Savers Exchange itself is a great resource: http://www.seedsavers.org/.

      Another useful resource is the "Garden Watchdog" page at Dave's Garden, http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/. There you can get reviews of almost every mail order (and even some local) nurseries in North America, and many in other parts of the world as well. The "Plant Scout" page lets you search for a particular plant and see which nurseries carry it: http://davesgarden.com/products/ps/. Plant Scout doesn't have access to the full databases of all the nurseries, but a bunch do cross-reference their offerings here, so it is useful as a shortcut when searching for something in particular.

      Jonathan
      --
      "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon
    • nova wright
      Wow Jonathan That is totally incredible reference, That will keep me busy for awhile ; ) Thanks nova ... From: Jonathan Teller-Elsberg To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 22, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Wow Jonathan
        That is totally incredible reference, That will keep me busy for awhile ; ) Thanks
         
        nova
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 8:50 AM
        Subject: [pfaf] re: Forest Garden Resources

         

        Hi Nova,


        The best resources for finding plants in the US and Canada are the two source inventories published by Seed Savers Exchange:

        and

        The FBN inventory was recently updated. I think the Garden Seed inventory is a few years old so not quite as up to date, but still useful. Each lists every plant/seed available by every mail-order nursery in the country--or at least very close to every nursery. The books are really impressive. Under each plant name and description is a list of the nurseries that sell that particular plant.

        One Green World does have one of the most extensive offerings of woody plants interesting to permaculturists. Other nurseries with diverse offerings are 

        Two nurseries with shorter lists, but likely of interest to permaculturists in North America, are 
        and Permaculture Nursery at Food Forest Farm http://permaculturenursery.com/. Of course there are many other good sources. These are the ones that I'm most familiar with.

        Seed Savers Exchange itself is a great resource: http://www.seedsavers.org/.

        Another useful resource is the "Garden Watchdog" page at Dave's Garden, http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/. There you can get reviews of almost every mail order (and even some local) nurseries in North America, and many in other parts of the world as well. The "Plant Scout" page lets you search for a particular plant and see which nurseries carry it: http://davesgarden.com/products/ps/. Plant Scout doesn't have access to the full databases of all the nurseries, but a bunch do cross-reference their offerings here, so it is useful as a shortcut when searching for something in particular.

        Jonathan
        --
        "We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." -Les Lanyon

      • Michael Bell
        I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop. My reasons for this are:- Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 25, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
          My reasons for this are:-

          Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
          for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
          tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
          grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit
          of their range in Britain. To make use of this land we need to take a
          plant which grows well in British upland conditions and breed it into
          a suitable grain crop. There are many possible plants, and some sedges
          show potential, but it would be a huge task to even evaluate them all.
          Instead I have seized on the idea of alder because:-

          * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.
          * Birds and small animals eat alder seeds and I know from many reports
          and personal test that they are not harmful to man. Like other seed
          crops, wheat, rice, oats, the taste lies in the preparation.
          * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
          source of CO2 production.
          * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
          variations.
          * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.
          * The harvesting waste, chiefly cones, but also twigs, may be a useful
          fuel, it comes in handy-sized pieces. The fallen leaves may also be
          used as a fuel, they are plentiful.
          * It is a tree, ground does not have to prepared for it every year
          nor seed sown. This saves on the CO2 output of ploughing with heavy
          machinery.
          * Over its commercial life (50 years?) a tree will store a lot of
          carbon.
          * Alnus glutinosa grows in Tunisia and Algeria, the latitude of China
          and Northern India. For many reasons the people in mountainous regions
          in these countries go to the cities, abandoning terraces which erode.
          Alder could be useful for growing something and holding back erosion.

          But alder needs to be improved to become a grain crop. In particular
          it needs bigger seeds. I spent the whole of last autumn going round
          alders on Tyneside (You can't do it in the rain, so it is pleasant
          work.) pulling cones off trees, breaking them open by rolling and
          crushing them between two plates and sieving them. I found six trees
          with SIGNIFICANTLY bigger seeds. They obviously weren't the top end of
          a bell-curve, they were a STEP bigger. I germinated these bigger
          seeds, germination was poor, partly because of my inexperience with
          this species, but partly also because many bigger seeds are
          deformities or are stuffed with "cork". Nevertheless, some germinated
          and produced cotyledons which were noticeably bigger than standard,
          showing that they contained more food.

          I grafted these seedlings onto "adult" trees on places on the branches
          which should produce catkins and cones this year for fruiting next
          year, but my grafting technique was poor and none of them took. I have
          taken advice and I now know how to do better next year.

          (To hold such small stems together I found it best to use
          Hellermann sleeves, put over the stock end with a Hellermann
          tool. These are normally used in electronic wiring. I came
          to the belief that the usual grafting sealers contain
          fungicides and alcohol which actually kill such small green
          pieces. Vaseline seems to be the right stuff, we put it on
          baby's bottoms!)

          Grafting the products of hybridisation will shorten the breeding cycle
          from 7 years to 2 years.

          I went to the trees which had produced the bigger seeds, covered their
          cones with plastic bags to stop their neighbours from fertilising
          them, and fertilised them from the other big-seed producers. I will
          collect the results in the next few weeks.

          Bigger seeds are one thing I want, but also I look at the cones and
          think "They are too big. The tree wastes too much on them. I want
          flimsier cones, although rolling and crushing the cones is fairly
          efficient, I would like harvesting to be even easier." And so I would
          like flimsier cones, something which can be seen just walking past.

          I would also like trees with different growth habits. This could make
          a big difference to harvesting methods. In this I have been lucky, I
          have already found :-

          * Varieties with all-cone branches, producing very many more cones.
          * Varieties with almost all cones and no or very few catkins.
          * A dwarf variety. What might be the harvesting use of this?
          * A variety which has grown to 2.7 metres in 3 years.

          It would be asking too much to ask people to break open cones and
          sieve the seeds to find the biggest, though I would be grateful and
          provide equipment and help to anybody who does want to do this.

          What I feel I can ask is for people who walk past trees to look at
          them with my needs in mind;-

          CONES - Do they look different to usual?

          GROWTH HABIT - Does this tree have a different shape and branch
          layout?

          You could tell me by phone - 0191 266 6435
          You could tell me by e-mail - michael@...
          You could write to me -
          20 Cambridge Avenue
          Forest Hall
          Newcastle upon Tyne
          NE12 8AR

          We could meet at an agreed place and you could take me to the tree you
          have found and go to a pub after.

          You could send the Ordnance Grid reference.

          Thank you for reading all this!

          Michael Bell
        • Geir Flatabø
          Is it only Alnus glutinosa you are looking at , or do you think of hybridizing / other species !? Geir Flatabø 2011/9/26 Michael Bell
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 26, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Is it only Alnus glutinosa you are looking at , 
            or do you think of hybridizing  / other species !?

            Geir Flatabø

            2011/9/26 Michael Bell <michael@...>
            I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
            My reasons for this are:-

            Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
            for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
            tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
            grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit
            of their range in Britain. To make use of this land we need to take a
            plant which grows well in British upland conditions and breed it into
            a suitable grain crop. There are many possible plants, and some sedges
            show potential, but it would be a huge task to even evaluate them all.
            Instead I have seized on the idea of alder because:-

            * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.
            * Birds and small animals eat alder seeds and I know from many reports
            and personal test that they are not harmful to man. Like other seed
            crops, wheat, rice, oats, the taste lies in the preparation.
            * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
            source of CO2 production.
            * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
            variations.
            * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.
            * The harvesting waste, chiefly cones, but also twigs, may be a useful
            fuel, it comes in handy-sized pieces. The fallen leaves may also be
            used as a fuel, they are plentiful.
            * It is a tree,  ground does not have to prepared for it every year
            nor seed sown. This saves on the CO2 output of ploughing with heavy
            machinery.
            * Over its commercial life (50 years?) a tree will store a lot of
            carbon.
            * Alnus glutinosa grows in Tunisia and Algeria, the latitude of China
            and Northern India. For many reasons the people in mountainous regions
            in these countries go to the cities, abandoning terraces which erode.
            Alder could be useful for growing something and holding back erosion.

            But alder needs to be improved to become a grain crop. In particular
            it needs bigger seeds. I spent the whole of last autumn going round
            alders on Tyneside (You can't do it in the rain, so it is pleasant
            work.) pulling cones off trees, breaking them open by rolling and
            crushing them between two plates and sieving them. I found six trees
            with SIGNIFICANTLY bigger seeds. They obviously weren't the top end of
            a bell-curve, they were a STEP bigger. I germinated these bigger
            seeds, germination was poor, partly because of my inexperience with
            this species, but partly also because many bigger seeds are
            deformities or are stuffed with "cork". Nevertheless, some germinated
            and produced cotyledons which were noticeably bigger than standard,
            showing that they contained more food.

            I grafted these seedlings onto "adult" trees on places on the branches
            which should produce catkins and cones this year for fruiting next
            year, but my grafting technique was poor and none of them took. I have
            taken advice and I now know how to do better next year.

                (To hold such small stems together I found it best to use
                Hellermann sleeves, put over the stock end with a Hellermann
                tool. These are normally used in electronic wiring. I came
                to the belief that the usual grafting sealers contain
                fungicides and alcohol which actually kill such small green
                pieces. Vaseline seems to be the right stuff, we put it on
                baby's bottoms!)

            Grafting the products of hybridisation will shorten the breeding cycle
            from 7 years to 2 years.

            I went to the trees which had produced the bigger seeds, covered their
            cones with plastic bags to stop their neighbours from fertilising
            them, and fertilised them from the other big-seed producers. I will
            collect the results in the next few weeks.

            Bigger seeds are one thing I want, but also I look at the cones and
            think "They are too big. The tree wastes too much on them. I want
            flimsier cones, although rolling and crushing the cones is fairly
            efficient, I would like harvesting to be even easier." And so I would
            like flimsier cones, something which can be seen just walking past.

            I would also like trees with different growth habits. This could make
            a big difference to harvesting methods. In this I have been lucky, I
            have already found :-

            * Varieties with all-cone branches, producing very many more cones.
            * Varieties with almost all cones and no or very few catkins.
            * A dwarf variety. What might be the harvesting use of this?
            * A variety which has grown to 2.7 metres in 3 years.

            It would be asking too much to ask people to break open cones and
            sieve the seeds to find the biggest, though I would be grateful and
            provide equipment and help to anybody who does want to do this.

            What I feel I can ask is for people who walk past trees to look at
            them with my needs in mind;-

            CONES - Do they look different to usual?

            GROWTH HABIT - Does this tree have a different shape and branch
            layout?

            You could tell me by phone - 0191 266 6435
            You could tell me by e-mail - michael@...
            You could write to me -
                20 Cambridge Avenue
                Forest Hall
                Newcastle upon Tyne
                NE12 8AR

            We could meet at an agreed place and you could take me to the tree you
            have found and go to a pub after.

            You could send the Ordnance Grid reference.

            Thank you for reading all this!

            Michael Bell






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          • Michael Bell
            Geir Yes I am thinking of hybridising with other species, in fact I cross- polinated A. glutinosa with A. incana and A. cordata this year. A. cordata has very
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 26, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Geir

              Yes I am thinking of hybridising with other species, in fact I cross-
              polinated A. glutinosa with A. incana and A. cordata this year. A.
              cordata has very big cones, so the obvious hope is that it will have
              bigger seeds, but it is very difficult to get the seeds out of these
              very tough cones. It is well documented that A. glutinosa will
              hybridise with A. incana.

              In the next few weeks I will go back to the trees where I did this and
              see what I have got. I am not committing myself to A. glutinosa, but
              it grows well in Britain and you have to make a start somewhere.

              Michael Bell

              In message <CAMPY7b31KJWaaXpjNBfS_AVTnid39OnMLW4FSycLRB98950mow@mail.g
              mail.com>
              Geir Flatabø <geirf@...> wrote:

              > Is it only Alnus glutinosa you are looking at ,
              > or do you think of hybridizing / other species !?

              > Geir Flatabø

              > 2011/9/26 Michael Bell <michael@...>

              >> I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
              >> My reasons for this are:-
              >>
              >> Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
              >> for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
              >> tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
              >> grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit
              >> of their range in Britain. To make use of this land we need to take a
              >> plant which grows well in British upland conditions and breed it into
              >> a suitable grain crop. There are many possible plants, and some sedges
              >> show potential, but it would be a huge task to even evaluate them all.
              >> Instead I have seized on the idea of alder because:-
              >>
              >> * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.
              >> * Birds and small animals eat alder seeds and I know from many reports
              >> and personal test that they are not harmful to man. Like other seed
              >> crops, wheat, rice, oats, the taste lies in the preparation.
              >> * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
              >> source of CO2 production.
              >> * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
              >> variations.
              >> * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.
              >> * The harvesting waste, chiefly cones, but also twigs, may be a useful
              >> fuel, it comes in handy-sized pieces. The fallen leaves may also be
              >> used as a fuel, they are plentiful.
              >> * It is a tree, ground does not have to prepared for it every year
              >> nor seed sown. This saves on the CO2 output of ploughing with heavy
              >> machinery.
              >> * Over its commercial life (50 years?) a tree will store a lot of
              >> carbon.
              >> * Alnus glutinosa grows in Tunisia and Algeria, the latitude of China
              >> and Northern India. For many reasons the people in mountainous regions
              >> in these countries go to the cities, abandoning terraces which erode.
              >> Alder could be useful for growing something and holding back erosion.
              >>
              >> But alder needs to be improved to become a grain crop. In particular
              >> it needs bigger seeds. I spent the whole of last autumn going round
              >> alders on Tyneside (You can't do it in the rain, so it is pleasant
              >> work.) pulling cones off trees, breaking them open by rolling and
              >> crushing them between two plates and sieving them. I found six trees
              >> with SIGNIFICANTLY bigger seeds. They obviously weren't the top end of
              >> a bell-curve, they were a STEP bigger. I germinated these bigger
              >> seeds, germination was poor, partly because of my inexperience with
              >> this species, but partly also because many bigger seeds are
              >> deformities or are stuffed with "cork". Nevertheless, some germinated
              >> and produced cotyledons which were noticeably bigger than standard,
              >> showing that they contained more food.
              >>
              >> I grafted these seedlings onto "adult" trees on places on the branches
              >> which should produce catkins and cones this year for fruiting next
              >> year, but my grafting technique was poor and none of them took. I have
              >> taken advice and I now know how to do better next year.
              >>
              >> (To hold such small stems together I found it best to use
              >> Hellermann sleeves, put over the stock end with a Hellermann
              >> tool. These are normally used in electronic wiring. I came
              >> to the belief that the usual grafting sealers contain
              >> fungicides and alcohol which actually kill such small green
              >> pieces. Vaseline seems to be the right stuff, we put it on
              >> baby's bottoms!)
              >>
              >> Grafting the products of hybridisation will shorten the breeding cycle
              >> from 7 years to 2 years.
              >>
              >> I went to the trees which had produced the bigger seeds, covered their
              >> cones with plastic bags to stop their neighbours from fertilising
              >> them, and fertilised them from the other big-seed producers. I will
              >> collect the results in the next few weeks.
              >>
              >> Bigger seeds are one thing I want, but also I look at the cones and
              >> think "They are too big. The tree wastes too much on them. I want
              >> flimsier cones, although rolling and crushing the cones is fairly
              >> efficient, I would like harvesting to be even easier." And so I would
              >> like flimsier cones, something which can be seen just walking past.
              >>
              >> I would also like trees with different growth habits. This could make
              >> a big difference to harvesting methods. In this I have been lucky, I
              >> have already found :-
              >>
              >> * Varieties with all-cone branches, producing very many more cones.
              >> * Varieties with almost all cones and no or very few catkins.
              >> * A dwarf variety. What might be the harvesting use of this?
              >> * A variety which has grown to 2.7 metres in 3 years.
              >>
              >> It would be asking too much to ask people to break open cones and
              >> sieve the seeds to find the biggest, though I would be grateful and
              >> provide equipment and help to anybody who does want to do this.
              >>
              >> What I feel I can ask is for people who walk past trees to look at
              >> them with my needs in mind;-
              >>
              >> CONES - Do they look different to usual?
              >>
              >> GROWTH HABIT - Does this tree have a different shape and branch
              >> layout?
              >>
              >> You could tell me by phone - 0191 266 6435
              >> You could tell me by e-mail - michael@...
              >> You could write to me -
              >> 20 Cambridge Avenue
              >> Forest Hall
              >> Newcastle upon Tyne
              >> NE12 8AR
              >>
              >> We could meet at an agreed place and you could take me to the tree you
              >> have found and go to a pub after.
              >>
              >> You could send the Ordnance Grid reference.
              >>
              >> Thank you for reading all this!
              >>
              >> Michael Bell
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>


              --
            • Elaine Sommers
              In herbalism the bark and leaves of alnus glutinosa can be used as a decoction for sore throats, pharyngitis and, with golden seal, for dyspepsia. Blessings,
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 26, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                In herbalism the bark and leaves of alnus glutinosa can be used as a decoction for sore throats, pharyngitis and, with golden seal, for dyspepsia.

                Blessings,
                Elaine.

                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                 
                from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982





                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                From: geirf@...
                Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 09:24:36 +0200
                Subject: Re: [pfaf] Looking for bigger seeds and flimsier cones to develop alder as a grain crop

                 
                Is it only Alnus glutinosa you are looking at , 
                or do you think of hybridizing  / other species !?

                Geir Flatabø

                2011/9/26 Michael Bell <michael@...>
                I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
                My reasons for this are:-

                Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
                for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
                tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
                grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit
                of their range in Britain. To make use of this land we need to take a
                plant which grows well in British upland conditions and breed it into
                a suitable grain crop. There are many possible plants, and some sedges
                show potential, but it would be a huge task to even evaluate them all.
                Instead I have seized on the idea of alder because:-

                * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.
                * Birds and small animals eat alder seeds and I know from many reports
                and personal test that they are not harmful to man. Like other seed
                crops, wheat, rice, oats, the taste lies in the preparation.
                * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
                source of CO2 production.
                * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
                variations.
                * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.
                * The harvesting waste, chiefly cones, but also twigs, may be a useful
                fuel, it comes in handy-sized pieces. The fallen leaves may also be
                used as a fuel, they are plentiful.
                * It is a tree,  ground does not have to prepared for it every year
                nor seed sown. This saves on the CO2 output of ploughing with heavy
                machinery.
                * Over its commercial life (50 years?) a tree will store a lot of
                carbon.
                * Alnus glutinosa grows in Tunisia and Algeria, the latitude of China
                and Northern India. For many reasons the people in mountainous regions
                in these countries go to the cities, abandoning terraces which erode.
                Alder could be useful for growing something and holding back erosion.

                But alder needs to be improved to become a grain crop. In particular
                it needs bigger seeds. I spent the whole of last autumn going round
                alders on Tyneside (You can't do it in the rain, so it is pleasant
                work.) pulling cones off trees, breaking them open by rolling and
                crushing them between two plates and sieving them. I found six trees
                with SIGNIFICANTLY bigger seeds. They obviously weren't the top end of
                a bell-curve, they were a STEP bigger. I germinated these bigger
                seeds, germination was poor, partly because of my inexperience with
                this species, but partly also because many bigger seeds are
                deformities or are stuffed with "cork". Nevertheless, some germinated
                and produced cotyledons which were noticeably bigger than standard,
                showing that they contained more food.

                I grafted these seedlings onto "adult" trees on places on the branches
                which should produce catkins and cones this year for fruiting next
                year, but my grafting technique was poor and none of them took. I have
                taken advice and I now know how to do better next year.

                    (To hold such small stems together I found it best to use
                    Hellermann sleeves, put over the stock end with a Hellermann
                    tool. These are normally used in electronic wiring. I came
                    to the belief that the usual grafting sealers contain
                    fungicides and alcohol which actually kill such small green
                    pieces. Vaseline seems to be the right stuff, we put it on
                    baby's bottoms!)

                Grafting the products of hybridisation will shorten the breeding cycle
                from 7 years to 2 years.

                I went to the trees which had produced the bigger seeds, covered their
                cones with plastic bags to stop their neighbours from fertilising
                them, and fertilised them from the other big-seed producers. I will
                collect the results in the next few weeks.

                Bigger seeds are one thing I want, but also I look at the cones and
                think "They are too big. The tree wastes too much on them. I want
                flimsier cones, although rolling and crushing the cones is fairly
                efficient, I would like harvesting to be even easier." And so I would
                like flimsier cones, something which can be seen just walking past.

                I would also like trees with different growth habits. This could make
                a big difference to harvesting methods. In this I have been lucky, I
                have already found :-

                * Varieties with all-cone branches, producing very many more cones.
                * Varieties with almost all cones and no or very few catkins.
                * A dwarf variety. What might be the harvesting use of this?
                * A variety which has grown to 2.7 metres in 3 years.

                It would be asking too much to ask people to break open cones and
                sieve the seeds to find the biggest, though I would be grateful and
                provide equipment and help to anybody who does want to do this.

                What I feel I can ask is for people who walk past trees to look at
                them with my needs in mind;-

                CONES - Do they look different to usual?

                GROWTH HABIT - Does this tree have a different shape and branch
                layout?

                You could tell me by phone - 0191 266 6435
                You could tell me by e-mail - michael@...
                You could write to me -
                    20 Cambridge Avenue
                    Forest Hall
                    Newcastle upon Tyne
                    NE12 8AR

                We could meet at an agreed place and you could take me to the tree you
                have found and go to a pub after.

                You could send the Ordnance Grid reference.

                Thank you for reading all this!

                Michael Bell






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              • Michael Bell
                Elaine I did know this, the main objective is to feed people and for that we need BIGGER. But other qualities are important too. Is it possible to cut off and
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 26, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Elaine

                  I did know this, the main objective is to feed people and for that we
                  need BIGGER.

                  But other qualities are important too. Is it possible to cut off and
                  analyse part of a seed without killing the seed? Surely if the seed is
                  big enough. For the rather distant future I have in mind a vibratory
                  feeder, such as you get in factories for presenting screws and bolt,
                  which presents the seed, 1/second, lined up, the machine lowers a tiny
                  hot plate onto the tip (not the root) of the cotyledon and cooks it. A
                  mass spectrometer detects whether anything unusual has been found, and
                  if it has, it puts that seed aside. With chilled seeds, it might work.
                  There is no way of knowing what might be found.

                  Thank you for your blessings. Are you a Wicca?

                  Michael Bell

                  In message <BAY151-W14C5E5D5D0AC7554116D77D1F00@...>
                  Elaine Sommers <elainesommers@...> wrote:

                  > In herbalism the bark and leaves of alnus glutinosa can be used as a
                  > decoction for sore throats, pharyngitis and, with golden seal, for
                  > dyspepsia.

                  > Blessings,
                  > Elaine.


                  > ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food
                  > consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to
                  > eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes
                  > for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . .
                  > . All that exists lives."

                  > from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982

                  New Scientist discusses the possibility of cultured, laboratory-grown
                  meant. Including human meat!

                  Michael Bell


                  --
                • inverse
                  ... Hi Michael, I find your project fascinating. I wish you success! ... * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big ... chemistry and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 27, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Michael Bell <michael@...> wrote:
                     

                    I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
                    My reasons for this are:-

                    Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
                    for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
                    tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
                    grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit

                    Hi Michael,

                    I find your project fascinating. I wish you success!


                    * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.


                    * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
                    source of CO2 production.
                    * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
                    variations.
                    * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.


                    I've got to agree with you. My problem is growing food without the aid of chemistry and fossil fuels (most nitrogen-based fertilisers require methane for their synthesis), chestnuts grow fine at my premises but are being hit by dryocosmus kuriphilus.
                    I still don't know if my particular trees are resistant enough to survive the infestation, this year they did fine and produced a lot but I can't trust them too much. I've already noticed two smaller dead branches.
                    Therefore I'm looking forward to growing annual and perennial herbaceous plants too.

                    One question, does chenopodium album grow fine on the highlands too? 
                    I've found it in the Alps up to 1200-1500m.


                    Regards,
                    Inverse



                  • Michael Bell
                    In message ... Thank you! ... My methods sift through very large numbers. That s
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 27, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In message <CAM1dQ5mjJmYGJtvFFzU4JhnFm6WDX3NhSOaNA4HyjxLWERa60w@mail.g
                      mail.com>
                      inverse <inverse@...> wrote:

                      > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Michael Bell
                      > <michael@...>wrote:

                      >> **
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I have a project to develop alder (Alnus glutinosa) as a grain crop.
                      >> My reasons for this are:-
                      >>
                      >> Britain cannot feed itself because half its land is too high and cold
                      >> for grain production. This is not because this land is infertile, the
                      >> tree-line is much higher than the crop line. It is because the main
                      >> grain crops originated in the Mediterranean and they are at the limit
                      >>
                      > Hi Michael,

                      > I find your project fascinating. I wish you success!

                      Thank you!


                      >> * It is a tree; it can be more productive than a herb crop.
                      >>

                      > * It fixes nitrogen. Nitrate fertilisers are expensive and a big
                      >> source of CO2 production.
                      >> * It is a tree, once established it is insensitive to weather
                      >> variations.
                      >> * It is a tree, it does not need weeding and chemical weedkilling.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I've got to agree with you. My problem is growing food without the aid of
                      > chemistry and fossil fuels (most nitrogen-based fertilisers require methane
                      > for their synthesis), chestnuts grow fine at my premises but are being hit
                      > by dryocosmus kuriphilus.
                      > I still don't know if my particular trees are resistant enough to survive
                      > the infestation, this year they did fine and produced a lot but I can't
                      > trust them too much. I've already noticed two smaller dead branches.
                      > Therefore I'm looking forward to growing annual and perennial herbaceous
                      > plants too.

                      My methods sift through very large numbers. That's important for
                      breeding purposes.

                      > One question, does chenopodium album grow fine on the highlands too?
                      > I've found it in the Alps up to 1200-1500m.


                      > Regards,
                      > Inverse

                      Chenopodium album http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenopodium_album does
                      grow on ploughed land at 180 M in the Cheviot hills (the hills which
                      form the border between England and Scotland) but I've never seen it
                      higher, but that is probably because land any higher is not usually
                      ploughed and the ground is normally thickly covered by grass and
                      heather. But now you have put the point to me, I do know of farms at
                      320 M, so next time I go past I will have a look. Britain is not a
                      country of mountains, rather it has a lot of hills.

                      Regards

                      Michael Bell



                      --
                    • Elaine Sommers
                      Hi Michael, I understand what you say about the main purpose being to feed people. But when you listed all the qualities of the alder you didn t just include
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 28, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Michael, I understand what you say about the main purpose being to feed people. But when you listed all the qualities of the alder you didn't just include the aspect of food, so I thought I would add some more. The more qualities a plant has the more valuable a resourse it becomes. In the future we may all have to hark back to less used methods of healing ourselves. If, as a by-product of alder production, you can you other aspects of the tree then that is all to the good.

                        I class myself more as animist / shamanic rather than wiccan, but I seem to be gathering quite a few friends who support and / or practise various aspects of the wiccan religion. I hope that in all my interactions with other people I wish upon them blessings and peace, regardless of my or their spiritual beliefs.

                        Blessings,
                        Elaine.

                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
                         
                        from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982





                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        From: michael@...
                        Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 07:36:58 +0100
                        Subject: RE: [pfaf] Looking for bigger seeds and flimsier cones to develop alder as a grain crop

                         
                        Elaine

                        I did know this, the main objective is to feed people and for that we
                        need BIGGER.

                        But other qualities are important too. Is it possible to cut off and
                        analyse part of a seed without killing the seed? Surely if the seed is
                        big enough. For the rather distant future I have in mind a vibratory
                        feeder, such as you get in factories for presenting screws and bolt,
                        which presents the seed, 1/second, lined up, the machine lowers a tiny
                        hot plate onto the tip (not the root) of the cotyledon and cooks it. A
                        mass spectrometer detects whether anything unusual has been found, and
                        if it has, it puts that seed aside. With chilled seeds, it might work.
                        There is no way of knowing what might be found.

                        Thank you for your blessings. Are you a Wicca?

                        Michael Bell

                        In message <BAY151-W14C5E5D5D0AC7554116D77D1F00@...>
                        Elaine Sommers <elainesommers@...> wrote:

                        > In herbalism the bark and leaves of alnus glutinosa can be used as a
                        > decoction for sore throats, pharyngitis and, with golden seal, for
                        > dyspepsia.

                        > Blessings,
                        > Elaine.

                        > ". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food
                        > consists entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to
                        > eat, all those that we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes
                        > for ourselves, have souls, souls that do not perish with the body . .
                        > . All that exists lives."

                        > from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982

                        New Scientist discusses the possibility of cultured, laboratory-grown
                        meant. Including human meat!

                        Michael Bell

                        --

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