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Re: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc

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  • Michael Kenna
    As I live in the USA I hope to be kept abreast of the Executive Summaries of this potentially fascinating project and its ongoing plan of action Thanks in
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 18, 2010
      As I live in the USA I hope to be kept abreast of the "Executive Summaries" of this potentially fascinating project and its ongoing plan of action Thanks in advance.
       
      Michael Kenna
      michaelkenna@...



      From: i23testingcyborg2000 <cromlech108@...>
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 3:19:45 PM
      Subject: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc

       

      Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/ s of polycultures/ forest garden guilds etc.)

      Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have at the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as a joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.

      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups. com, "i23testingcyborg20 00" <cromlech108@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > http://permaculture association. cmail3.com/ T/ViewEmail/ y/058789F1BD1DC0 29/833C7772F6CB0 92D6A4D01E12DB89 21D
      >
      > Quote:
      >
      > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best, we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their gardens and fields.
      >
      > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions, and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues, and get involved, email research@...
      >
      > Endquote.
      >
      > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest gardens work...
      >
      > http://www.ediblefo restgardens. com/
      >
      > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got something new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the species. Its something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek benefical insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming for this in consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
      >
      > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain.. .these polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden systems is quite a job I think!
      >
      > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators, damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
      >
      > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking it forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of the Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures ). It is what needs to be done I think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
      >
      > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn. (This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunis tic species (which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession.. .so ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light, and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
      >
      > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
      >
      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/pfaf/ photos/album/ 0/list
      >
      > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are available.
      >
      > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
      >
      > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study through the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
      >

    • matthew@b-and-t-world-seeds.com
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 19, 2010
        Working out the format for data input (so that any information collected can be useful) will be a long and complicated task. It is much, much easier to start with all the variables (soil types, plant names, weather types, plant sizes, plant seasons etc.) than to try and add them afterwards.

        Matt

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: michaelkenna@...
        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 2/19/10 9:18 PM
        Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc

        As I live in the USA I hope to be kept abreast of the "Executive Summaries" of this potentially fascinating project and its ongoing plan of action Thanks in advance.
         
        Michael Kenna
        michaelkenna@...



        From: i23testingcyborg2000
        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 3:19:45 PM
        Subject: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc

         

        Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/ s of polycultures/ forest garden guilds etc.)

        Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have at the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as a joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.

        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups. com, "i23testingcyborg20 00" wrote:
        >
        > http://permaculture association. cmail3.com/ T/ViewEmail/ y/058789F1BD1DC0 29/833C7772F6CB0 92D6A4D01E12DB89 21D
        >
        > Quote:
        >
        > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best, we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their gardens and fields.
        >
        > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions, and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues, and get involved, email research@...
        >
        > Endquote.
        >
        > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest gardens work...
        >
        > http://www.ediblefo restgardens. com/
        >
        > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got something new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the species. Its something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek benefical insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming for this in consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
        >
        > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain.. .these polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden systems is quite a job I think!
        >
        > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators, damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
        >
        > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking it forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of the Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures ). It is what needs to be done I think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
        >
        > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn. (This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunis tic species (which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession.. .so ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light, and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
        >
        > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
        >
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/pfaf/ photos/album/ 0/list
        >
        > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are available.
        >
        > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
        >
        > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study through the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
        >

      • i23testingcyborg2000
        With a comp. spreadsheet its a simple but tedius matter of entering the values (a set of values would need to be designated that the program can recognise and
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 20, 2010
          With a comp. spreadsheet its a simple but tedius matter of entering the values (a set of values would need to be designated that the program can recognise and differentiate) in the columns and rows...a new row for each species I would say base it upon the 'plant species matrix' in David Jackes and Eric whathisnames format in their FG opus book. A spreadsheet program then allows you to do whatever you want with the data. I would say expand Jackes plant species matrix and have elements from his other tables, plus possibly other factors/issues to be entered...as in the actual plant pollination month/s for beneficial insects etc. A spreadsheet can be much more complicated and extensive than a paper table without loss of coherance and usefulness...and comutations can be done. I did some work a few years ago on PFI (private finance initiative) funding/costs of new roadbuilds. (that used cost benefit analysis (CBA) type math to calculate present values of future costs..which were jinormous by the way). That was for a road protestcom - The A55 Expressway in North Wales. Some people (on side) thought it was just a time wasting blag/play for the public enquiry! It was complicated due to the nature of converting the inital data (a bit sparse) into a useful CBA formula/e. This nu idea compared is easy..but lots of data entry.

          The PFAF database might well be spreadsheet based - I don't know. This idea could work as a useful design tool.

          Its a great idea to have a international polyculture research program - I wonder if the UK permaculture polyculture research group mentioned previously know of this other project? Maybe the two can merge? or at least conjunct. Of course it has to a scientific type free data sharing project (rather than some sort of manical private free enterprise trip) - this being permaculture!

          ..but try actually living by these values in your personal life folks..oh deary deary me, free love sharing om love psy telepathic communal vibration rather than win/lose games?! Oh dear, that would mean being a real hippy maaaaaannnnnnn. By the way the sacrament for transcendance is important..it is important than the sacrament (if mind altering drugs are in the mix) be shared freely with no money game vibes. That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful. It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the work).

          Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
        • Smittyctz6
          Funny seeing this here.. Very Wôbi.. We don t really care if Wôbi people try to steal what they think is shamanistic We follow the true way the Mekwi
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 20, 2010
            Funny seeing this here.. Very Wôbi..
            We don't really care if  Wôbi people try to steal what they think is "shamanistic"
            We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that it can only be accessed by a  Mekwi Zanôba or Behanem

              That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful. It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the work).

            Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.


          • Debbie McDonald
            I m new here, from USA, can you all expand on this thread.    ________________________________ From: Smittyctz6 To:
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 20, 2010
              I'm new here, from USA, can you all expand on this thread.   


              From: Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@...>
              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, February 20, 2010 1:44:15 PM
              Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc



              Funny seeing this here.. Very Wôbi..
              We don't really care if  Wôbi people try to steal what they think is "shamanistic"
              We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that it can only be accessed by a  Mekwi Zanôba or Behanem

                That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful. It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the work).

              Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.





            • ortaa23
              Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby I distill techniques into an understanding of what their energetic effects are.
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 21, 2010
                Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby I distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic effects are. They might then be described more scientifically/universally than previously, when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular tradition. So, to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy that may take place within the human organism, that may give rise to an embodiment of the creative healing force (love).

                To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular genetic heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that there may be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of energy, and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have created and maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have been many 'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However, there are and have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have desired that people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity', the crusades against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with pharmaceutical poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA' demonstrates the desire of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to themselves - it shows a capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the 'elite'), detached from the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').

                Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people encoded their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst others secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools. These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to start with.)

                Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.

                Maybe?

                A.


                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@...> wrote:
                >
                > Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
                > We don't really care if W�bi people try to steal what they think is
                > "shamanistic"
                > We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that
                > it can only be accessed by a Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
                >
                > > That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
                > > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
                > > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are
                > > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful.
                > > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power
                > > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the
                > > work).
                > >
                > > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
                > >
                >
              • i23testingcyborg2000
                Hi yeah, I checked out this link, and tryed to join the project - but the input form doesn t work properly by the way...allowing the USA to be the only country
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 24, 2010
                  Hi yeah, I checked out this link, and tryed to join the project - but the input form doesn't work properly by the way...allowing the USA to be the only country of residence...and obviously we need to see where in the world people are based to see if the work/plants we are doing/using are compatable with relevant others.



                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
                  >
                  > http://www.apiosinstitute.org
                  >
                  > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the message.
                  >
                  > "We envision an integrated system of diverse collaborators undertaking action research, cooperative plant breeding, and participatory education using a distributed network of research and demonstration sites in various regions within the world's temperate forest biomes. We focus initially on small-scale systems for local production of food, fuel, fiber, fodder, fertilizer, farmaceuticals, and fun for urban, suburban, and rural environments, but we also address small-farm systems and support work at larger scales."
                  >
                  > ~Trent Rhode
                  >
                  > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/s of polycultures/forest garden guilds etc.)
                  > >
                  > > Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have at the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as a joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://permacultureassociation.cmail3.com/T/ViewEmail/y/058789F1BD1DC029/833C7772F6CB092D6A4D01E12DB8921D
                  > > >
                  > > > Quote:
                  > > >
                  > > > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best, we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their gardens and fields.
                  > > >
                  > > > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions, and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues, and get involved, email research@
                  > > >
                  > > > Endquote.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest gardens work...
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/
                  > > >
                  > > > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got something new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the species. Its something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek benefical insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming for this in consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
                  > > >
                  > > > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain...these polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden systems is quite a job I think!
                  > > >
                  > > > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators, damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
                  > > >
                  > > > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking it forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of the Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures). It is what needs to be done I think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn. (This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunistic species (which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession...so ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light, and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
                  > > >
                  > > > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/photos/album/0/list
                  > > >
                  > > > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are available.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
                  > > >
                  > > > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study through the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • i23testingcyborg2000
                  Use of shammanic plants or magical plants that radically change consciousness can be very enlightening. I would say stick to a free range approach, certainly
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 24, 2010
                    Use of 'shammanic plants' or magical plants that radically change consciousness can be very enlightening. I would say stick to a free range approach, certainly don't go for any of these pay camps, and stay away from native american tradition unless you really are genuinely descended from the relavent tribe. This is what native americans in general say - not me! I really think it is possible to learn more, as a European, with a free range anarchistic approach. The stuff I've talked about here on this list etc really has happened! (communal telepathy/shapeshifting etc etc.) You can transcend materialsm, including the actual 'material' nature of reality, because reality is not actually materially based..it just seems so, and magical plants can do this for ones consciousness, in the right state of mind and right setting; BUT because there is no continuous aboriginal tradition of using such plants in European christian culture and tradition, when people start to get into such stuff again, well, they can quite easily start doing plastic shammanism, when really I think one should have respect for ones own aboriginal ancestry, and not steal the native americans. Yes I know that this is a concept that BNP nazi scum have tried to usurp - British indigenous culture. However don't let them set the agenda. I don't mean it that way. I don't (obviously) mean Norman Tebbit world of sad and petty fascist small minded half a brain Englishness. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

                    What I mean for example is, if you have western European ancestry (or otherwise!), take a look at this temple of goddess magic for example:

                    http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB361GB361&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=callanish+temple

                    Powerful medicene for sure. There is also real stuff in Anglo Saxon traditional/pagan culture/ritual...Bending the weird! Blessed be! - again magical/mind altering drugs basically make this sort of real time magic more accessable to the mind...but again (tribal identity/ancestry) its not something to be taken obessively seriously and exclusivly as the BNP mentally ill holocaust denying fascists do, because all human beings originated from Africa...so tribal type identity is important, but not *THAT* important. (but that doesn't mean its right to simple try and take whatever indigenous tribal/eastern tradition we feel like and start using it in our our lives for ritual or otherwise.)

                    All this stuff is mainstream in the 'east'...where I'm going again this summer. Yipppeeeee!!! Its really a different reality in India...where people worship and respect the mountain spirits and Devas, the Mother Earth, where there is a way out of the game of society that is respected, the holy person, rather than scapegoated and vilified and abused like in Blightyworld. (and yes there is a reason for that and its called ritual abuse rather than having an auspsicious Mother Earth ritual grounded reality, essentially..once again, the crux of the issue that we face in terms of 'saving planet earth' type thing.)


                    Good luck humans - you'll need it!

                    Blessings
                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ortaa23" <ormus23@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby I distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic effects are. They might then be described more scientifically/universally than previously, when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular tradition. So, to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy that may take place within the human organism, that may give rise to an embodiment of the creative healing force (love).
                    >
                    > To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular genetic heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that there may be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of energy, and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have created and maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have been many 'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However, there are and have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have desired that people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity', the crusades against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with pharmaceutical poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA' demonstrates the desire of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to themselves - it shows a capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the 'elite'), detached from the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').
                    >
                    > Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people encoded their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst others secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools. These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to start with.)
                    >
                    > Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.
                    >
                    > Maybe?
                    >
                    > A.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
                    > > We don't really care if W�bi people try to steal what they think is
                    > > "shamanistic"
                    > > We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that
                    > > it can only be accessed by a Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
                    > >
                    > > > That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
                    > > > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
                    > > > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are
                    > > > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful.
                    > > > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power
                    > > > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the
                    > > > work).
                    > > >
                    > > > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • watchintheriver
                    Moderator, I thought this thread was kaput....? Maury Be where you live
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 25, 2010
                      Moderator,

                      I thought this thread was kaput....?

                      Maury
                      "Be where you live"

                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Use of 'shammanic plants' or magical plants that radically change consciousness can be very enlightening. I would say stick to a free range approach, certainly don't go for any of these pay camps, and stay away from native american tradition unless you really are genuinely descended from the relavent tribe. This is what native americans in general say - not me! I really think it is possible to learn more, as a European, with a free range anarchistic approach. The stuff I've talked about here on this list etc really has happened! (communal telepathy/shapeshifting etc etc.) You can transcend materialsm, including the actual 'material' nature of reality, because reality is not actually materially based..it just seems so, and magical plants can do this for ones consciousness, in the right state of mind and right setting; BUT because there is no continuous aboriginal tradition of using such plants in European christian culture and tradition, when people start to get into such stuff again, well, they can quite easily start doing plastic shammanism, when really I think one should have respect for ones own aboriginal ancestry, and not steal the native americans. Yes I know that this is a concept that BNP nazi scum have tried to usurp - British indigenous culture. However don't let them set the agenda. I don't mean it that way. I don't (obviously) mean Norman Tebbit world of sad and petty fascist small minded half a brain Englishness. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
                      >
                      > What I mean for example is, if you have western European ancestry (or otherwise!), take a look at this temple of goddess magic for example:
                      >
                      > http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB361GB361&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=callanish+temple
                      >
                      > Powerful medicene for sure. There is also real stuff in Anglo Saxon traditional/pagan culture/ritual...Bending the weird! Blessed be! - again magical/mind altering drugs basically make this sort of real time magic more accessable to the mind...but again (tribal identity/ancestry) its not something to be taken obessively seriously and exclusivly as the BNP mentally ill holocaust denying fascists do, because all human beings originated from Africa...so tribal type identity is important, but not *THAT* important. (but that doesn't mean its right to simple try and take whatever indigenous tribal/eastern tradition we feel like and start using it in our our lives for ritual or otherwise.)
                      >
                      > All this stuff is mainstream in the 'east'...where I'm going again this summer. Yipppeeeee!!! Its really a different reality in India...where people worship and respect the mountain spirits and Devas, the Mother Earth, where there is a way out of the game of society that is respected, the holy person, rather than scapegoated and vilified and abused like in Blightyworld. (and yes there is a reason for that and its called ritual abuse rather than having an auspsicious Mother Earth ritual grounded reality, essentially..once again, the crux of the issue that we face in terms of 'saving planet earth' type thing.)
                      >
                      >
                      > Good luck humans - you'll need it!
                      >
                      > Blessings
                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ortaa23" <ormus23@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby I distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic effects are. They might then be described more scientifically/universally than previously, when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular tradition. So, to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy that may take place within the human organism, that may give rise to an embodiment of the creative healing force (love).
                      > >
                      > > To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular genetic heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that there may be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of energy, and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have created and maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have been many 'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However, there are and have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have desired that people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity', the crusades against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with pharmaceutical poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA' demonstrates the desire of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to themselves - it shows a capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the 'elite'), detached from the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').
                      > >
                      > > Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people encoded their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst others secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools. These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to start with.)
                      > >
                      > > Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe?
                      > >
                      > > A.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
                      > > > We don't really care if W�bi people try to steal what they think is
                      > > > "shamanistic"
                      > > > We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that
                      > > > it can only be accessed by a Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
                      > > >
                      > > > > That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
                      > > > > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
                      > > > > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are
                      > > > > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful.
                      > > > > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power
                      > > > > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the
                      > > > > work).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • trentrhode
                      Yes, it isn t launched yet so the sign up form isn t ready, but I wanted to share the link anyway so that you could read about it. It s almost ready for public
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 25, 2010
                        Yes, it isn't launched yet so the sign up form isn't ready, but I wanted to share the link anyway so that you could read about it. It's almost ready for public launch. I'll let them know to make sure one can choose different countries.
                        ~Trent

                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi yeah, I checked out this link, and tryed to join the project - but the input form doesn't work properly by the way...allowing the USA to be the only country of residence...and obviously we need to see where in the world people are based to see if the work/plants we are doing/using are compatable with relevant others.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
                        > >
                        > > http://www.apiosinstitute.org
                        > >
                        > > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the message.
                        > >
                        > > "We envision an integrated system of diverse collaborators undertaking action research, cooperative plant breeding, and participatory education using a distributed network of research and demonstration sites in various regions within the world's temperate forest biomes. We focus initially on small-scale systems for local production of food, fuel, fiber, fodder, fertilizer, farmaceuticals, and fun for urban, suburban, and rural environments, but we also address small-farm systems and support work at larger scales."
                        > >
                        > > ~Trent Rhode
                        > >
                        > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/s of polycultures/forest garden guilds etc.)
                        > > >
                        > > > Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have at the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as a joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://permacultureassociation.cmail3.com/T/ViewEmail/y/058789F1BD1DC029/833C7772F6CB092D6A4D01E12DB8921D
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Quote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best, we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their gardens and fields.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions, and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues, and get involved, email research@
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Endquote.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest gardens work...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got something new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the species. Its something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek benefical insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming for this in consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain...these polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden systems is quite a job I think!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators, damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking it forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of the Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures). It is what needs to be done I think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn. (This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunistic species (which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession...so ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light, and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/photos/album/0/list
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are available.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study through the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • giantgardener
                        I d contribute only if the information is going to be available for free, not member-fee driven. They will be getting this info for---free?---then selling
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
                          I'd contribute only if the information is going to be available for free, not "member-fee" driven. They will be getting this info for---free?---then selling it? I certainly hope not. Any word on that yet, because I can't seem to find out specifically if they are planning on such critically valuable information being available to all, similar to PFAF's database, or not. And what about any (expensive) books he might create from this free info? Now, there's another sticky subject entirely, but I digress....

                          I'm not putting down the idea. I'm all for it. Just asking some hard questions, that's all. Don't know about if others have noticed, but is anyone else becoming alarmed by how many people are now out there selling permaculture information, teaching, etc., cashing in on the movement? Permaculture is going to die a quick death if it becomes any more commercialized. Just when we're going to need it the most? Or is that what some of these jokers are counting on? That people will become desperate and take these "courses" now popping up like mushrooms?

                          Where are the Ken Fern's of permaculture anymore? I've always considereed him its shining model.


                          > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@> wrote:
                          > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.apiosinstitute.org
                          > > >
                          > > > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the message.
                        • Carles Esquerda
                          Hi Giantgardener, I completely agree with you in that the permaculture information is being commercialized and from the outside the permaculture movement looks
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 1, 2010
                            Hi Giantgardener,
                             
                            I completely agree with you in that the permaculture information is being commercialized and from the outside the permaculture movement looks like a course-business. Most people (but fortunately not all) are keeping valuable information ready to be sold, but not freely shared. I think that this attitude is hindering the expansion of permaculture, and might lead to its death sooner or later.
                             
                            It is just my impression as a beginner, but that could be more people's view, too.
                             
                            Regards,
                             
                            Carles
                             

                             


                            De: giantgardener <giantgardener@...>
                            Para: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            Enviado: lun,1 marzo, 2010 14:35
                            Asunto: [pfaf] Re: Permaculture Association February E-bulletin - research on Polycultures etc

                             

                            I'd contribute only if the information is going to be available for free, not "member-fee" driven. They will be getting this info for---free?- --then selling it? I certainly hope not. Any word on that yet, because I can't seem to find out specifically if they are planning on such critically valuable information being available to all, similar to PFAF's database, or not. And what about any (expensive) books he might create from this free info? Now, there's another sticky subject entirely, but I digress....

                            I'm not putting down the idea. I'm all for it. Just asking some hard questions, that's all. Don't know about if others have noticed, but is anyone else becoming alarmed by how many people are now out there selling permaculture information, teaching, etc., cashing in on the movement? Permaculture is going to die a quick death if it becomes any more commercialized. Just when we're going to need it the most? Or is that what some of these jokers are counting on? That people will become desperate and take these "courses" now popping up like mushrooms?

                            Where are the Ken Fern's of permaculture anymore? I've always considereed him its shining model.

                            > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups. com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@ > wrote:
                            > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.apiosins titute.org
                            > > >
                            > > > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot
                            of plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the message.


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