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Re: Walnuts

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  • ryborgryborg268
    I would say think in terms of non market systems around you. This can be diffiuclt due to a/ idiots b/ real world issues. Thi is relevant for systems like
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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      I would say think in terms of non market systems around you. This can be diffiuclt due to a/ idiots b/'real world' issues. Thi is relevant for systems like transition towns or anything...rather than free enterprise virus.

      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
      >
      > ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a knoledge of ecology. By preference, Gaia's Garden recommended actual real world observation of the site, and locate native plants that fulfill the required roles in your FG or Permy system. The problem with this latter method here in the Uk is that there is a much smaller number of native plants to choose from. So exotics are required perhaps here. And exotics can be invasion. Yes invasive not oppourtunistic, as they squeeze out existing biodiversity sometimes. Japanese knotweed for example - this plkant is highly invasive. I've noticed it appear in the woods near Brightling where I have a permy unit. Soon the streamside, incredible anicient native woodland, will be filled with the reeking sickly sweet stench of this flowers of this triffidd like monster plant.
      >
      > So anyway. Winters here in the Northern hemisphere and everywhere is cold and mud moreor less in the Weald. Time to explore the Rif Mountains of Morrocco for the next FG site. Yes. Gonna try the magic alchemy there with the hope that state forces (basically) will not block the external community wide potential for magic there. That the Islamic senario will be usful in the work - the great work of pure vegan alchemy as started by the great saint, David Every.
      >
      > Poll> Do you belive in Vegan Alchemy?
      >
      > Yes or No?
      >
      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@> wrote:
      > >
      > > There is a methodology in 'Gaias Garden' for designing guilds for each unique project...lots to learn my friend.
      > >
      > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "nerdnooky" <nerdnooky@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There's been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as understory to a 66 yr old English black walnut which just put out the heaviest crop of walnuts ever, so much so the crop broke two branches.
      > > >
      > > > They didn't read that memo, it seems. ;)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
      > > > >
      > > > > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
      > > > > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
      > > > > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
      > > > > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
      > > > > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
      > > > > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
      > > > >
      > > > > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
      > > > > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
      > > > > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
      > > > > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
      > > > > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
      > > > > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
      > > > > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
      > > > >
      > > > > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
      > > > > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
      > > > > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
      > > > > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
      > > > > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
      > > > >
      > > > > Cheers, David
      > > > >
      > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@> wrote:
      > > > > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • simon
      As the one who started this thread thought I should reply. Thanks for the info those of you have posted. Ludwig - yes guilds and interaction matrices are not
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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        As the one who started this thread thought I should reply. Thanks for the info those of you have posted. Ludwig - yes guilds and interaction matrices are not 'simple puzzle games' - that much I know. And yes, info will be specific to the bio-regions where the research was done. But I also think you are fudging the issue. Plants have many varied uses and cannot be simply reduced to a paragraph on 'use chamomile as a muscle relaxant' etc etc. But one has to start SOMEWHERE. One needs some 'starters'.

        The PFAF database is not comprehensive but it is a great starting base. That was my point- I have not found such information relating to guilds. As said I don't necessarily expect it for free and i don't quite share the view that those in the Permaculture movement are cynically 'hoarding' their knowledge inside expensive courses. I think it is probably more a case of the science being in its infancy and people not getting around to fully systematizing this knowledge. You might as well to criticise indiginous tibes for not broadcasting their plant knowledge over the internet- maybe they're too busy :-)

        Ideally this would have been done before but now might be the time as the movement seems to be just beginning to hit a critical mass and more people will be coming on board looking for 'starters'.

        > > >
        > > Hi Simon,
        > >
        > > Maybe I understand your question wrong but I see it like this:
        > >
        > > I find that sometimes people expect forest gardening to be like a jigsaw
        > > puzzle. Where plants are jigsaw pieces that fit together to make a picture.
        > > But it doesn't work like that. There are so many factors involved in
        > > determining which variety of plants to put where and in which
        > > combination: water, light, light what time of day, your taste buds,
        > > position to the house, neighbouring plants, people, pollution, soil
        > > type, wind, invasive plants and animals, diseases, pests, law, .... and
        > > the list goes on....
        > >
        > > I think choosing the right plants is more like a pokemon game where each
        > > character or plant has its own characteristics. And depending on the
        > > location it is for the player or gardener to discover and learn how to
        > > play the plants best. There are some clear and obvious rules and logical
        > > themes, but in the end no game is ever the same.
        > >
        > > There are a few good books out there, Patrick whitefields: 'How to make
        > > a forest garden' being my favorite. Or 'the earth care manual' is just
        > > delicious.
        > >
        > > But I always end up back at the Pfaf Database. The best there is.
        > >
        > > Many many thanks guy's for years and years of work putting up for free
        > > for everyone to use. (please feel free to send voluntary donations to
        > > them via paypal, info on the website.)
        > >
        > > Ludwig
        > >
        >
      • bozomind
        On my own property, the Juglans nigra grows intermixed with Black and Honey Locust (most trees are either black walnut or a locust) which strongly suggests a
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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          On my own property, the Juglans nigra grows intermixed with Black and Honey Locust (most trees are either black walnut or a locust) which strongly suggests a natural guild there. Also have a few sour cherries growing next to the walnuts. Not too far away are some hawthorns (not fruit producing). Would love to work these trees into a guild where I use them as a deer barrier. Those spikes are something else!

          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@... wrote:
          >
          > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
          >
          > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
          > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
          > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
          > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
          > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
          > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
          >
          > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
          > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
          > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
          > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
          > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
          > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
          > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
          >
          > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
          > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
          > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
          > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
          > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
          >
          > Cheers, David
          >
        • bozomind
          Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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            Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!

            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
            >
            > ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a knoledge of ecology. By preference, Gaia's Garden recommended actual real world observation of the site, and locate native plants that fulfill the required roles in your FG or Permy system. The problem with this latter method here in the Uk is that there is a much smaller number of native plants to choose from. So exotics are required perhaps here. And exotics can be invasion. Yes invasive not oppourtunistic, as they squeeze out existing biodiversity sometimes. Japanese knotweed for example - this plkant is highly invasive. I've noticed it appear in the woods near Brightling where I have a permy unit. Soon the streamside, incredible anicient native woodland, will be filled with the reeking sickly sweet stench of this flowers of this triffidd like monster plant.
            >
            > So anyway. Winters here in the Northern hemisphere and everywhere is cold and mud moreor less in the Weald. Time to explore the Rif Mountains of Morrocco for the next FG site. Yes. Gonna try the magic alchemy there with the hope that state forces (basically) will not block the external community wide potential for magic there. That the Islamic senario will be usful in the work - the great work of pure vegan alchemy as started by the great saint, David Every.
            >
            > Poll> Do you belive in Vegan Alchemy?
            >
            > Yes or No?
          • bozomind
            Forgot to mention that the locusts produce seeds that taste like lentils if you get them while they re still green. Kinda small, but tasty.
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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              Forgot to mention that the locusts produce seeds that taste like lentils if you get them while they're still green. Kinda small, but tasty.

              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@... wrote:
              >
              > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
              >
              > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
              > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
              > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
              > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
              > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
              > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
              >
              > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
              > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
              > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
              > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
              > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
              > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
              > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
              >
              > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
              > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
              > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
              > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
              > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
              >
              > Cheers, David
              >
            • mIEKAL aND
              We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... Also be careful with polygonum & goats
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes....  Also be careful with polygonum & goats because they'll eat the stuff until they explode....

                ~mIEKAL

                On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM, bozomind <bozomind@...> wrote:
                 

                Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!

              • Geir Flatabø
                2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND ... Could you elaborate how you make the panpipes and flutes !?? Geir Flatabø ... 2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                  2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...>


                  We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... 
                  Could you elaborate
                  how you make the panpipes and flutes !??
                   
                  Geir Flatabø
                   
                  Also be careful with polygonum & goats because they'll eat the stuff until they explode....

                  ~mIEKAL


                  On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM, bozomind <bozomind@...> wrote:
                   

                  Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!




                • mIEKAL aND
                  I should make it clear that I m talking about Giant Japanese Knotweed, which around here gets to be 10-14 feet tall. Stalks are harvested in October. The
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                    I should make it clear that I'm talking about Giant Japanese Knotweed, which around here gets to be 10-14 feet tall.  Stalks are harvested in October.  The first step is to break thru the culms so that no moisture is stuck inside the tubes.  These will then dry to be just like bamboo (tho not nearly as strong).  For panpipes tubes are cut to different lengths & we use dried stalks of cupplant to hold a row of tubes together.  Then by using homemade sinew everything is wrapped up.  I completely wild-crafted music instrument.  To some degree the panpipes can be tuned by adjusting the length of the tubes.  Final touch is to put beeswax on the cut end of the tubes to make them easier on the lips.  I used to have some photos up on the permaculture wiki but I see the site is no longer up.

                    ~mIEKAL



                    On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:48 AM, Geir Flatabø <geirf@...> wrote:
                     



                    2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...>



                    We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... 
                    Could you elaborate
                    how you make the panpipes and flutes !??
                     
                    Geir Flatabø
                  • listenstohorses
                    No way!!   try    http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/2266_0/tinkering-with-this-site/may-i-suggest-wiki-link-collection-bestof   ...   I used to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                      No way!!   try
                       
                       


                      --- On Wed, 12/2/09, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...> wrote:

                        I used to have some photos up on the permaculture wiki but I see the site is no longer up.

                      ~mIEKAL

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