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Growing vines in trees

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  • hydrochar
    I m very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees.
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 29, 2009
      I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?
    • Geir Flatabø
      In Norway Hops - Humulus lupulus grows vigoriously in alder habitats. Alder is nitrogen fixing, Hops giving edible nice tasting shoots in spring and hops in
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
        In Norway
        Hops - Humulus lupulus  grows vigoriously in alder habitats.
        Alder is nitrogen fixing,
        Hops giving edible nice tasting shoots in spring and hops in the autumn.

        Geir Flatabø

        2009/11/29 hydrochar <bgmartin@...>
        I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees.  I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA).   Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well?  Any pictures or advice?



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      • matthew@b-and-t-world-seeds.com
        depends on the tree and the vine, and the spacing/scale Here is patula growing up a jackfruit tree, it grows better in kapok trees:
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
          depends on the tree and the vine, and the spacing/scale

          Here is patula growing up a jackfruit tree, it grows better in kapok trees:
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Luffa%20acutangula&sref=34761

          jackfruit:
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Artocarpus%20heterophyllus&sref=314

          Jackfruit trees branch frequently (rather than having a main axis with branches growing laterally) so you get a mass of vine growing all over - mainly on the outside of the tree.

          Kapok has a main axis, like a Christmas tree but with fewer lateral branches:
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Ceiba%20pentandra&sref=548

          I'll try to get a photograph of Luffa acutangula growing in a kapok tree.

          If your vine supports are too close you will get an impenetrable mess, even on frames or trellises:
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Momordica%20cochinchinensis&sref=69291
          The Gac fruit here are fine, but a few months later there was almost no direct light penetration, so no longer suitable for dappled shade nursery beds.
          If you use trees, don't have them close enough that the vines can cross.

          Vines are mainly adapted to growing up other plants - I guess a good project would be to make a database of support plants and companion vines.

          Miniature edible cucumbers:
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Melothria%20pendula&sref=74190

          There was a discussion here about winged beans recently, these have got to one of the best vines. The whole plant is edible and nitrogen fixing. It doesn't have to fruit, it is an herbaceous perennial, and I bet the roots are hardy to lower than zone 9 (does anyone have experience ?)
          http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Psophocarpus%20tetragonolobus&sref=5336
          Different cultures prefer different parts of the plant, if you live where the species is not expected to fruit, you can pick the flowers for salads or for blue food colouring.

          I'll keep an eye out for more vines in trees photos, both those combinations that work, and those that don't :)

          All the best,
          Matt
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: bgmartin@...
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 11/30/09 2:58 PM
          Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees

          I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?



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        • matthew@b-and-t-world-seeds.com
          Do you have any photos wild grapes in crabapple trees ? Matt ... From: bgmartin@myfairpoint.net To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com Sent: 11/30/09 2:58 PM Subject: [pfaf]
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
            Do you have any photos wild grapes in crabapple trees ?

            Matt

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bgmartin@...
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 11/30/09 2:58 PM
            Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees

            I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?
          • ossi
            Thanks a lot for the hops n alder! Not so much info here, but little observations. In Finland I ve seen Parthenocissus inserta succesfully climbing up in
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
              Thanks a lot for the hops n' alder!

              Not so much info here, but little observations. In Finland I've seen
              Parthenocissus inserta succesfully climbing up in Rowan and both were
              about 100 years old. About the same age Actinidia kolomikta had
              suffocated a 5 meter tall juneberry and reached into the douglas fir
              behind that... Therefore 6 meters of climbing space seems to be
              necessary for the kiwis. In Finland apples and plums rarely grow
              taller than that, even though I've seen one 15 meter tall apple tree.
              Young kiwi saplings do good in shade, but fruiting requires sunlight
              (forest edge)... I'm keen to find out how kiwis get along with pinus
              sylvestris, which seems to be ok for hablizia to climb on as well as
              are pruned spruces. Schisandra chinensis is naturally occuring in
              shady forests of north-eastern Asia in which it's growing up to the
              canopy. In Finland I have not seen any succesfull cultivars of
              Schisandra in open areas or pergolas, as it has usually remained about
              one meter tall...

              Ossi Kakko

              > In Norway
              > Hops - Humulus lupulus grows vigoriously in alder habitats.
              > Alder is nitrogen fixing, Hops giving edible nice tasting shoots in
              > spring and hops in the autumn.
              >
              > Geir Flatabø
              >
              > 2009/11/29 hydrochar <bgmartin@...>
              >
              >> I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi,
              >> Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or
              >> nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but
              >> rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm
              >> guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly
              >> compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild
              >> grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in
              >> Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree
              >> combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?
              >>
            • Michael Porter
              Dioscorea Batatas works well, -Dioscorea alata does not, -- ... From: hydrochar Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
                Dioscorea Batatas works well, -Dioscorea alata does not, --

                --- On Sun, 11/29/09, hydrochar <bgmartin@...> wrote:

                From: hydrochar <bgmartin@...>
                Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 8:31 AM

                 
                I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?

              • matthew@b-and-t-world-seeds.com
                Dioscorea alata certainly grows in trees. This is another herbaceous perennial, if you don t like it in the tree, just eat the root :) For best results, it
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
                  Dioscorea alata certainly grows in trees. This is another herbaceous perennial, if you don't like it in the tree, just eat the root :)

                  For best results, it does need a reasonably large tree, rather than a shrub.

                  You should get aerial tubers, these may be bigger than a soft drink can.

                  http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Dioscorea%20alata&sref=443412
                  This photo is not up a tree.

                  I should be passing a big plant in a grove of trees today, I'll try to get a photo - only the tubers are visible as it is out of the growing season.

                  Matt

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: michaels4gardens@...
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: 11/30/09 6:37 PM
                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees

                  Dioscorea Batatas works well, -Dioscorea alata does not, --

                  --- On Sun, 11/29/09, hydrochar wrote:


                  From: hydrochar
                  Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 8:31 AM


                   



                  I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?
                • Norris Thomlinson
                  ... Hi Michael, The literature and my experience suggest that D. batatas requires excavation to a depth of 2-3 to harvest the entire root. Do you have a way
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 30, 2009
                    On 11/30/09, Michael Porter <michaels4gardens@...> wrote:
                    > Dioscorea Batatas works well, -Dioscorea alata does not, --

                    Hi Michael,

                    The literature and my experience suggest that D. batatas requires excavation to a depth of 2-3' to harvest the entire root. Do you have a way to manage the root harvest without harming its host tree? Or should folks limit this combination to trees they don't mind harming?

                    I've been growing D. batatas as I've read the Japanese do: in wooden or chicken wire cages with 2'+ of soil. At the end of the season I dismantle the enclosure and excavate the root from the side. I suppose I could build such an enclosure under a tree with high enough lowest branches, to use the tree as a trellis without mangling its roots at harvest time.

                    Or if I wanted to grow D. batatas purely for its aerial tubers I could grow it in the ground and just leave the root alone.

                    Any other thoughts or experiences with this combo?

                    Norris Thomlinson
                    Portland, OR

                  • Michael Porter
                    I don t recomend Dioscorea alata in trees --because it grows so big it smothers trees less then 60 feet tall, --the Dioscorea batatas is only 10 feet or so at
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 1, 2009
                      I don't recomend Dioscorea alata in trees --because it grows so big it smothers trees less then 60 feet tall, --the Dioscorea batatas is only 10 feet or so at the most and not too thick on top and trees are not much hurt by it, --  but right, the root is the edible part of both, --and the tubercles of D. batatas are good to eat also,   love them stir-fried, --
                      Michael Porter
                      North Florida USA

                      --- On Mon, 11/30/09, matthew@... <matthew@...> wrote:

                      From: matthew@... <matthew@...>
                      Subject: Re: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 6:52 PM

                      Dioscorea alata certainly grows in trees. This is another herbaceous perennial, if you don't like it in the tree, just eat the root :)

                      For best results, it does need a reasonably large tree, rather than a shrub.

                      You should get aerial tubers, these may be bigger than a soft drink can.

                      http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/carth.asp?species=Dioscorea%20alata&sref=443412
                      This photo is not up a tree.

                      I should be passing a big plant in a grove of trees today, I'll try to get a photo - only the tubers are visible as it is out of the growing season.

                      Matt

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: michaels4gardens@...
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: 11/30/09 6:37 PM
                      Subject: Re: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees

                      Dioscorea Batatas works well, -Dioscorea alata does not, --

                      --- On Sun, 11/29/09, hydrochar  wrote:


                      From: hydrochar
                      Subject: [pfaf] Growing vines in trees
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 8:31 AM


                       



                      I'm very interested in growing food producing vines like grape, kiwi, Schisandra, cinnamon vine, Akebia and Hablitzia in fruit, nut or nitrogen fixing trees. I've been told that I shouldn't do this, but rather that I should build arbors so the plants don't compete. I'm guessing that Hablitzia, Schisandra and arctic kiwi will not overly compete with dwarf trees and can handle light shade. I've seen wild grapes growing beautifully in crabapples in the forest edges here in Maine (USA). Does anyone have specific examples of vine/tree combinations that have worked well? Any pictures or advice?








                    • Stephen Barstow
                      The great thing about Hablitzia is that it is in full growth long before the leaves spring out and can climb to 3-4m before mid-summer. In this way I think it
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 2, 2009

                        The great thing about Hablitzia is that it is in full growth long before the leaves spring out and can climb to 3-4m before mid-summer. In this way I think it should grow well together with trees without being outcompeted. Nevertheless it does very much depend on your climate and local conditions as to how well this would work. In my garden I don’t have more than 20 cm deep soil over rock and I think it would have trouble competing with the water-hungry birch trees. Therefore, I’ve so far made a trench so that the birch roots cannot compete. I should try though…   It is one of the earliest plants to start growing in spring and if anything will work then it would be Hablitzia I think.

                         

                        Stephen (Norway)

                         

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