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There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???

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  • simon
    As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 23, 2009
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      As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
    • david.keltie@gmail.com
      I have from somewhere: Recommended Food Forest Associates Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut Ribes and Viburnum species Comfrey, Vetch and Clover Pecan, Walnut
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 24, 2009
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        I have from somewhere:

        Recommended Food Forest Associates
        Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut
        Ribes and Viburnum species
        Comfrey, Vetch and Clover
        Pecan, Walnut and Oak
        Wild Plum and Apricot
        Chamomile and Thyme
        Hackberry, Walnut
        Ribes species

        Natural Forest Associates
        Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir
        Twinflower, Big Huckleberry, Utah Honeysuckle, Paxistima
        Oakfern, Wild Ginger,Violet
        Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir, Douglas Fir, White Pine
        Big Huckleberry, Thimbleberry, Oregon Grape, Douglas Maple
        Wild Sarsparilla (in Bracken Fern areas)

        Other Possible Food Forest Associates
        Hazelnut / Apricot
        Black Cherry / Locust
        Chestnut / Sassafras
        Oak / Mountain Mahogany

        Cheers, David

        On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@...> wrote:
        > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Ludd
        ... Hi Simon, Maybe I understand your question wrong but I see it like this: I find that sometimes people expect forest gardening to be like a jigsaw puzzle.
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 24, 2009
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          simon wrote:
          > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
          >
          >
          >
          Hi Simon,

          Maybe I understand your question wrong but I see it like this:

          I find that sometimes people expect forest gardening to be like a jigsaw
          puzzle. Where plants are jigsaw pieces that fit together to make a picture.
          But it doesn't work like that. There are so many factors involved in
          determining which variety of plants to put where and in which
          combination: water, light, light what time of day, your taste buds,
          position to the house, neighbouring plants, people, pollution, soil
          type, wind, invasive plants and animals, diseases, pests, law, .... and
          the list goes on....

          I think choosing the right plants is more like a pokemon game where each
          character or plant has its own characteristics. And depending on the
          location it is for the player or gardener to discover and learn how to
          play the plants best. There are some clear and obvious rules and logical
          themes, but in the end no game is ever the same.

          There are a few good books out there, Patrick whitefields: 'How to make
          a forest garden' being my favorite. Or 'the earth care manual' is just
          delicious.

          But I always end up back at the Pfaf Database. The best there is.

          Many many thanks guy's for years and years of work putting up for free
          for everyone to use. (please feel free to send voluntary donations to
          them via paypal, info on the website.)

          Ludwig
        • Carles Esquerda
          Yes Simon, I agree with you in that there is very little info available for free on Permaculture, and specially on interactions between species, and also on
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 25, 2009
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            Yes Simon, I agree with you in that there is very little info available for free on Permaculture, and specially on interactions between species, and also on how to design the plantation of a great variety of species, edible and non-edible. It seems that all information is only given through rather expensive courses, which is quite disappointing if we take into account that Permaculture is practised mainly by amateur people and not for business.
             
            Cheers,
             
            Carles


            De: "david.keltie@..." <david.keltie@...>
            Para: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Enviado: mar,24 noviembre, 2009 23:01
            Asunto: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???

             

            I have from somewhere:

            Recommended Food Forest Associates
            Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut
            Ribes and Viburnum species
            Comfrey, Vetch and Clover
            Pecan, Walnut and Oak
            Wild Plum and Apricot
            Chamomile and Thyme
            Hackberry, Walnut
            Ribes species

            Natural Forest Associates
            Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir
            Twinflower, Big Huckleberry, Utah Honeysuckle, Paxistima
            Oakfern, Wild Ginger,Violet
            Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir, Douglas Fir, White Pine
            Big Huckleberry, Thimbleberry, Oregon Grape, Douglas Maple
            Wild Sarsparilla (in Bracken Fern areas)

            Other Possible Food Forest Associates
            Hazelnut / Apricot
            Black Cherry / Locust
            Chestnut / Sassafras
            Oak / Mountain Mahogany

            Cheers, David

            On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

            > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/ detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


          • Douglas
            Where are the punky days of Pay no more than ? I agree that permaculture courses are for the people who can afford it as they tend to be heavy on the budget.
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 25, 2009
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              Where are the punky days of "Pay no more than"? I agree that permaculture courses are for the people who can afford it as they tend to be heavy on the budget.
               
              I am looking forward to see the 2010 calendar of Dharma House in France for their reasonably priced permaculture courses.
              Anyone who has experience with them please share your story.
              Thanks,
               
              Douglas

              --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...> wrote:

              From: Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...>
              Subject: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???
              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:45 AM

               
              Yes Simon, I agree with you in that there is very little info available for free on Permaculture, and specially on interactions between species, and also on how to design the plantation of a great variety of species, edible and non-edible. It seems that all information is only given through rather expensive courses, which is quite disappointing if we take into account that Permaculture is practised mainly by amateur people and not for business.
               
              Cheers,
               
              Carles


              De: "david.keltie@ gmail.com" <david.keltie@ gmail.com>
              Para: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
              Enviado: mar,24 noviembre, 2009 23:01
              Asunto: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???

               
              I have from somewhere:

              Recommended Food Forest Associates
              Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut
              Ribes and Viburnum species
              Comfrey, Vetch and Clover
              Pecan, Walnut and Oak
              Wild Plum and Apricot
              Chamomile and Thyme
              Hackberry, Walnut
              Ribes species

              Natural Forest Associates
              Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir
              Twinflower, Big Huckleberry, Utah Honeysuckle, Paxistima
              Oakfern, Wild Ginger,Violet
              Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir, Douglas Fir, White Pine
              Big Huckleberry, Thimbleberry, Oregon Grape, Douglas Maple
              Wild Sarsparilla (in Bracken Fern areas)

              Other Possible Food Forest Associates
              Hazelnut / Apricot
              Black Cherry / Locust
              Chestnut / Sassafras
              Oak / Mountain Mahogany

              Cheers, David

              On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
              > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/ detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


            • Patty Martz
              As many of us are amateurs and each of us are researching independently, perhaps, we could coordinate a website to share what we have learned (as we learn) and
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 25, 2009
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                As many of us are amateurs and each of us are researching independently, perhaps, we could coordinate a website to share what we have learned (as we learn) and form a guild/interaction matrix of our own? The Personal Brain Visual Information Management Program has a free download. http://www.thebrain.com/#-53 It is a handy tool for visual mind mapping. It might be useful for mapping guild interactions.
                Patty

              • trentrhode
                As mentioned by a previous poster, Dave Jacke and others are working on a public site that will contain detailed information on guilds and specific species
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 27, 2009
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                  As mentioned by a previous poster, Dave Jacke and others are working on a public site that will contain detailed information on guilds and specific species within them, interactions, etc., and allow for participatory experimentation and sharing from the public. We will post it to this group as soon as it is up and going.

                  If you haven't checked out the books Edible Forest Gardens I highly recommend doing so... by far the most extensive books on permaculture for temperate climate (or perhaps any climate for that matter).

                  ~Trent Rhode

                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Douglas <dougxmail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Where are the punky days of "Pay no more than"? I agree that permaculture courses are for the people who can afford it as they tend to be heavy on the budget.
                  >  
                  > I am looking forward to see the 2010 calendar of Dharma House in France for their reasonably priced permaculture courses.
                  > Anyone who has experience with them please share your story.
                  > Thanks,
                  >  
                  > Douglas
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???
                  > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:45 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes Simon, I agree with you in that there is very little info available for free on Permaculture, and specially on interactions between species, and also on how to design the plantation of a great variety of species, edible and non-edible. It seems that all information is only given through rather expensive courses, which is quite disappointing if we take into account that Permaculture is practised mainly by amateur people and not for business.
                  >  
                  > Cheers,
                  >  
                  > Carles
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > De: "david.keltie@ gmail.com" <david.keltie@ gmail.com>
                  > Para: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
                  > Enviado: mar,24 noviembre, 2009 23:01
                  > Asunto: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > I have from somewhere:
                  >
                  > Recommended Food Forest Associates
                  > Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut
                  > Ribes and Viburnum species
                  > Comfrey, Vetch and Clover
                  > Pecan, Walnut and Oak
                  > Wild Plum and Apricot
                  > Chamomile and Thyme
                  > Hackberry, Walnut
                  > Ribes species
                  >
                  > Natural Forest Associates
                  > Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir
                  > Twinflower, Big Huckleberry, Utah Honeysuckle, Paxistima
                  > Oakfern, Wild Ginger,Violet
                  > Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir, Douglas Fir, White Pine
                  > Big Huckleberry, Thimbleberry, Oregon Grape, Douglas Maple
                  > Wild Sarsparilla (in Bracken Fern areas)
                  >
                  > Other Possible Food Forest Associates
                  > Hazelnut / Apricot
                  > Black Cherry / Locust
                  > Chestnut / Sassafras
                  > Oak / Mountain Mahogany
                  >
                  > Cheers, David
                  >
                  > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
                  > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/ detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • ryborgryborg268
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 27, 2009
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                    ...the whole thing (including ina prominent way, permaculture) has to go mainstream immenently or surely earth crisis will accelerate at an increasing rate.

                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Douglas <dougxmail@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Where are the punky days of "Pay no more than"? I agree that permaculture courses are for the people who can afford it as they tend to be heavy on the budget.
                    >  
                    > I am looking forward to see the 2010 calendar of Dharma House in France for their reasonably priced permaculture courses.
                    > Anyone who has experience with them please share your story.
                    > Thanks,
                    >  
                    > Douglas
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Carles Esquerda <cesquerda@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???
                    > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:45 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes Simon, I agree with you in that there is very little info available for free on Permaculture, and specially on interactions between species, and also on how to design the plantation of a great variety of species, edible and non-edible. It seems that all information is only given through rather expensive courses, which is quite disappointing if we take into account that Permaculture is practised mainly by amateur people and not for business.
                    >  
                    > Cheers,
                    >  
                    > Carles
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > De: "david.keltie@ gmail.com" <david.keltie@ gmail.com>
                    > Para: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
                    > Enviado: mar,24 noviembre, 2009 23:01
                    > Asunto: Re: [pfaf] There seems to be a distinct LACK of information on guilds/interaction matrix???
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    > I have from somewhere:
                    >
                    > Recommended Food Forest Associates
                    > Apple, Mulberry, Pear and Walnut
                    > Ribes and Viburnum species
                    > Comfrey, Vetch and Clover
                    > Pecan, Walnut and Oak
                    > Wild Plum and Apricot
                    > Chamomile and Thyme
                    > Hackberry, Walnut
                    > Ribes species
                    >
                    > Natural Forest Associates
                    > Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir
                    > Twinflower, Big Huckleberry, Utah Honeysuckle, Paxistima
                    > Oakfern, Wild Ginger,Violet
                    > Western Red Cedar, Western Hemlock, Grand Fir, Douglas Fir, White Pine
                    > Big Huckleberry, Thimbleberry, Oregon Grape, Douglas Maple
                    > Wild Sarsparilla (in Bracken Fern areas)
                    >
                    > Other Possible Food Forest Associates
                    > Hazelnut / Apricot
                    > Black Cherry / Locust
                    > Chestnut / Sassafras
                    > Oak / Mountain Mahogany
                    >
                    > Cheers, David
                    >
                    > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
                    > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/ detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • david.keltie@gmail.com
                    Here s something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK) Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods suggest that walnut
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 27, 2009
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                      Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)

                      "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                      suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                      due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                      tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                      including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                      when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.

                      More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                      species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                      walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                      'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                      oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                      chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                      nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.

                      The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                      over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                      locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                      ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                      to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "

                      Cheers, David

                      On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@...> wrote:
                      > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • listenstohorses
                      Hello all, I have been reading but active till now.    I am in zone 5 and am starting from scratch.  We just bought this place and I am planning my
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 28, 2009
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                        Hello all, I have been reading but active till now. 
                         
                        I am in zone 5 and am starting from scratch.  We just bought this place and I am planning my guilds. 
                         
                        They are centered around what I have and what I have on order for being my number one fave trees on my list.  I plan to add 3 trees a year with their beds and companions.
                         
                        This year it is cherry with my star being a Rainier cherry.  I have plenty of asparagus as it grew so well for me from seed I have lots and know I can get lots.  Walking onion's, again as I have plenty. 
                         
                        I want strawberries, grapes, and blueberries and understand they will not all live in the same guild.  I also plan Arctic or cold hardy kiwi and others I am forgetting.  Lots of flowers.
                         
                        I have an artichoke plant in the window I hope to set out next spring.  They are not cold hardy here but hope to put in a protective guild and try.  Again grown from seed so I can try and try again till I finally find the right plant in the right place. 
                         
                        I have a mimosa seedling I would use a someday it could be a beautiful tree.  Are they good for anything besides pretty?
                         
                        I recently read that horseradish at the base of a cherry tree was a great thing for a sour cherry tree, would it be as good for a sweet cherry?
                         
                         

                      • nerdnooky
                        You make rather interesting comparisons. On one hand you re saying that one shouldn t consider permaculture guilds jigsaw puzzle pieces--a game. Yet you say
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 29, 2009
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                          You make rather interesting comparisons. On one hand you're saying that one shouldn't consider permaculture guilds jigsaw puzzle pieces--a game. Yet you say in the next paragraph that you think of guilds as a pokemon...game, with individual characteristics. Hmm.... methinks you're either pulling our collective neophite legs, or, you're of the same mind as we are, i.e., guilds are not easy childhood puzzles nor should plant characteristics be minimized. I agree. To what point?

                          The question stands, why is there little info on permaculture plant guilds on the internet? Are these gems being hoarded? Why?

                          Guild lists should be part of the internet, and should be shared with all, even if they are learning guilds. It's a start, is all. Some blogs share experiences with guilds, but few and far between, my friends, and they have to be searched out and gone through with an exceptionally tedious comb, using valuable time and energy.

                          The more time saved inventing the wheel is more time saving the earth. Imagine what would have happened to humanity if Alex Flemming kept his penicillin discovery to himself, expecting the next guy to find it out for himself? I have a problem with permaculturists who've been at this for a long time and refuse to share their knowledge, but are quite content selling it, meanwhile believing they are helping "save the earth". (only $2000 worth, my sage companion snooping over a shoulder interjects.) I've read all the books, perused the internet, done a few guild beds (some successful, some not--with notes, if anyone is interested), attended a few "permaculture" courses, and happily shared with others what little I've learned. Some knew what they were talking about, some clearly not. One course in particular spend almost three hours on whether the moon's light was yellow or white, and how did it affect plants? Good gracious. I got up and walked out, letting them keep my hard-earned cash. My guess is, they eventually will really be in need of it. Soon.

                          Soured? Irked? Let me think. You betcha.

                          Frankly, there's not enough time (irregardless) for that kind of nonsense. Permaculture knowledge should have been widely dispersed, oh, about 30 years ago, so why hasn't it caught on much more than it has? My feeling is, the concept should be as common as the word Coke or Pepsi by now. This earth doesn't have time for us to travel from the northeast coast to the northwestern coast, consuming more oil, for someone's talking head experience at $2,000 a pop.

                          Yes, permaculture teachers should get paid. Yes, their knowledge is valuable, and yes, they must eat, too. But if you are someone who refuses to allow it to become your passion rather than a vehicle for myopic bread and butter, be under no illusions it WILL eventually manifest. The sheer concept fairly shouts, it must! Passion doesn't care where it lands. One man who shared his gardening passion--and yes, got paid, too--taught me more about the beauty of plants than any moonlight color discussion ever could, by passing on a bit of infective PASSION for the future. When we share our passion for permaculture, we are paying forward OURS and everyone's future.

                          Cast your bread, so to speak.


                          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Ludd <the_pooh_way@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > simon wrote:
                          > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Hi Simon,
                          >
                          > Maybe I understand your question wrong but I see it like this:
                          >
                          > I find that sometimes people expect forest gardening to be like a jigsaw
                          > puzzle. Where plants are jigsaw pieces that fit together to make a picture.
                          > But it doesn't work like that. There are so many factors involved in
                          > determining which variety of plants to put where and in which
                          > combination: water, light, light what time of day, your taste buds,
                          > position to the house, neighbouring plants, people, pollution, soil
                          > type, wind, invasive plants and animals, diseases, pests, law, .... and
                          > the list goes on....
                          >
                          > I think choosing the right plants is more like a pokemon game where each
                          > character or plant has its own characteristics. And depending on the
                          > location it is for the player or gardener to discover and learn how to
                          > play the plants best. There are some clear and obvious rules and logical
                          > themes, but in the end no game is ever the same.
                          >
                          > There are a few good books out there, Patrick whitefields: 'How to make
                          > a forest garden' being my favorite. Or 'the earth care manual' is just
                          > delicious.
                          >
                          > But I always end up back at the Pfaf Database. The best there is.
                          >
                          > Many many thanks guy's for years and years of work putting up for free
                          > for everyone to use. (please feel free to send voluntary donations to
                          > them via paypal, info on the website.)
                          >
                          > Ludwig
                          >
                        • nerdnooky
                          There s been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 29, 2009
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                            There's been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as understory to a 66 yr old English black walnut which just put out the heaviest crop of walnuts ever, so much so the crop broke two branches.

                            They didn't read that memo, it seems. ;)


                            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                            >
                            > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                            > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                            > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                            > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                            > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                            > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                            >
                            > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                            > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                            > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                            > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                            > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                            > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                            > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                            >
                            > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                            > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                            > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                            > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                            > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                            >
                            > Cheers, David
                            >
                            > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@...> wrote:
                            > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • nerdnooky
                            will trade you some sturdy english black walnut seeds for some walking onion bulbs, if interested!
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 29, 2009
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                              will trade you some sturdy english black walnut seeds for some walking onion bulbs, if interested!



                              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, listenstohorses <listenstohorses@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello all, I have been reading but active till now. 
                              >  
                              > I am in zone 5 and am starting from scratch.  We just bought this place and I am planning my guilds. 
                              >  
                              > They are centered around what I have and what I have on order for being my number one fave trees on my list.  I plan to add 3 trees a year with their beds and companions.
                              >  
                              > This year it is cherry with my star being a Rainier cherry.  I have plenty of asparagus as it grew so well for me from seed I have lots and know I can get lots.  Walking onion's, again as I have plenty. 
                              >  
                              > I want strawberries, grapes, and blueberries and understand they will not all live in the same guild.  I also plan Arctic or cold hardy kiwi and others I am forgetting.  Lots of flowers.
                              >  
                              > I have an artichoke plant in the window I hope to set out next spring.  They are not cold hardy here but hope to put in a protective guild and try.  Again grown from seed so I can try and try again till I finally find the right plant in the right place. 
                              >  
                              > I have a mimosa seedling I would use a someday it could be a beautiful tree.  Are they good for anything besides pretty?
                              >  
                              > I recently read that horseradish at the base of a cherry tree was a great thing for a sour cherry tree, would it be as good for a sweet cherry?
                              >  
                              > my photos
                              >  
                              > My fave place on the net
                              >
                            • Denise4Peace
                              Mimosa is not a very cold-hardy plant, but can survive busts of cold up to -10C (14F). I don t think it would be a very good choice for Zone 5. It is a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                Mimosa is not a very cold-hardy plant, but can survive busts of cold up to -10C (14F). I don't think it would be a very good choice for Zone 5.
                                It is a nitrogen fixer (Family: Fabaceae)

                                Here's some info from someone who grows one type of Mimosa in the U.K.:

                                http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/howtogrow/3346137/Mimosa-How-to-grow.html
                              • ryborgryborg268
                                There is a methodology in Gaias Garden for designing guilds for each unique project...lots to learn my friend.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                  There is a methodology in 'Gaias Garden' for designing guilds for each unique project...lots to learn my friend.

                                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "nerdnooky" <nerdnooky@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > There's been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as understory to a 66 yr old English black walnut which just put out the heaviest crop of walnuts ever, so much so the crop broke two branches.
                                  >
                                  > They didn't read that memo, it seems. ;)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                                  > >
                                  > > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                                  > > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                                  > > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                                  > > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                                  > > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                                  > > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                                  > >
                                  > > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                                  > > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                                  > > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                                  > > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                                  > > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                                  > > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                                  > > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                                  > > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                                  > > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                                  > > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                                  > > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers, David
                                  > >
                                  > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@> wrote:
                                  > > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • listenstohorses
                                  Thank you so much Denise.  Good to know.  This little fella was growing under a tree here local so it might be a hardy type? my photos   My fave place on
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                    Thank you so much Denise. 
                                    Good to know.  This little fella was growing under a tree here local so it might be a hardy type?

                                     


                                    --- On Mon, 11/30/09, Denise4Peace <denise_for_peace@...> wrote:
                                    Mimosa is not a very cold-hardy plant, ...
                                    It is a nitrogen fixer (Family: Fabaceae)

                                    Here's some info from someone who grows one type of Mimosa in the U.K.:

                                    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/howtogrow/3346137/Mimosa-How-to-grow.html


                                  • ryborgryborg268
                                    ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                      ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a knoledge of ecology. By preference, Gaia's Garden recommended actual real world observation of the site, and locate native plants that fulfill the required roles in your FG or Permy system. The problem with this latter method here in the Uk is that there is a much smaller number of native plants to choose from. So exotics are required perhaps here. And exotics can be invasion. Yes invasive not oppourtunistic, as they squeeze out existing biodiversity sometimes. Japanese knotweed for example - this plkant is highly invasive. I've noticed it appear in the woods near Brightling where I have a permy unit. Soon the streamside, incredible anicient native woodland, will be filled with the reeking sickly sweet stench of this flowers of this triffidd like monster plant.

                                      So anyway. Winters here in the Northern hemisphere and everywhere is cold and mud moreor less in the Weald. Time to explore the Rif Mountains of Morrocco for the next FG site. Yes. Gonna try the magic alchemy there with the hope that state forces (basically) will not block the external community wide potential for magic there. That the Islamic senario will be usful in the work - the great work of pure vegan alchemy as started by the great saint, David Every.

                                      Poll> Do you belive in Vegan Alchemy?

                                      Yes or No?

                                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There is a methodology in 'Gaias Garden' for designing guilds for each unique project...lots to learn my friend.
                                      >
                                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "nerdnooky" <nerdnooky@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > There's been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as understory to a 66 yr old English black walnut which just put out the heaviest crop of walnuts ever, so much so the crop broke two branches.
                                      > >
                                      > > They didn't read that memo, it seems. ;)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                                      > > > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                                      > > > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                                      > > > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                                      > > > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                                      > > > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                                      > > > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                                      > > > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                                      > > > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                                      > > > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                                      > > > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                                      > > > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                                      > > > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                                      > > > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                                      > > > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                                      > > > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Cheers, David
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@> wrote:
                                      > > > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ------------------------------------
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • ryborgryborg268
                                      I would say think in terms of non market systems around you. This can be diffiuclt due to a/ idiots b/ real world issues. Thi is relevant for systems like
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                        I would say think in terms of non market systems around you. This can be diffiuclt due to a/ idiots b/'real world' issues. Thi is relevant for systems like transition towns or anything...rather than free enterprise virus.

                                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a knoledge of ecology. By preference, Gaia's Garden recommended actual real world observation of the site, and locate native plants that fulfill the required roles in your FG or Permy system. The problem with this latter method here in the Uk is that there is a much smaller number of native plants to choose from. So exotics are required perhaps here. And exotics can be invasion. Yes invasive not oppourtunistic, as they squeeze out existing biodiversity sometimes. Japanese knotweed for example - this plkant is highly invasive. I've noticed it appear in the woods near Brightling where I have a permy unit. Soon the streamside, incredible anicient native woodland, will be filled with the reeking sickly sweet stench of this flowers of this triffidd like monster plant.
                                        >
                                        > So anyway. Winters here in the Northern hemisphere and everywhere is cold and mud moreor less in the Weald. Time to explore the Rif Mountains of Morrocco for the next FG site. Yes. Gonna try the magic alchemy there with the hope that state forces (basically) will not block the external community wide potential for magic there. That the Islamic senario will be usful in the work - the great work of pure vegan alchemy as started by the great saint, David Every.
                                        >
                                        > Poll> Do you belive in Vegan Alchemy?
                                        >
                                        > Yes or No?
                                        >
                                        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > There is a methodology in 'Gaias Garden' for designing guilds for each unique project...lots to learn my friend.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "nerdnooky" <nerdnooky@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > There's been much said about apple trees and rhododendrons being jugalone repulsive. Tell that to the macintosh apple tree and rhododendron happily growing as understory to a 66 yr old English black walnut which just put out the heaviest crop of walnuts ever, so much so the crop broke two branches.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > They didn't read that memo, it seems. ;)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@ wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                                        > > > > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                                        > > > > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                                        > > > > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                                        > > > > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                                        > > > > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                                        > > > > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                                        > > > > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                                        > > > > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                                        > > > > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                                        > > > > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                                        > > > > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                                        > > > > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                                        > > > > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                                        > > > > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                                        > > > > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Cheers, David
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:48 PM, simon <simonsharp1976@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > As a novice permaculturist trying to research guilds for a forest garden site I have bee struck by how little specific info is available. The PFAF databse is a great resource of info about unusual plants and their uses. But permaculture is very much about the beneficial connections BETWEEN elements. I'm NOT expecting someone to have mapped out every interaction matrix on the planet and to have presented it for free on the web but I can't even really find a very comprehensive/detailed book on such things. Am I missing something here??
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • simon
                                        As the one who started this thread thought I should reply. Thanks for the info those of you have posted. Ludwig - yes guilds and interaction matrices are not
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                          As the one who started this thread thought I should reply. Thanks for the info those of you have posted. Ludwig - yes guilds and interaction matrices are not 'simple puzzle games' - that much I know. And yes, info will be specific to the bio-regions where the research was done. But I also think you are fudging the issue. Plants have many varied uses and cannot be simply reduced to a paragraph on 'use chamomile as a muscle relaxant' etc etc. But one has to start SOMEWHERE. One needs some 'starters'.

                                          The PFAF database is not comprehensive but it is a great starting base. That was my point- I have not found such information relating to guilds. As said I don't necessarily expect it for free and i don't quite share the view that those in the Permaculture movement are cynically 'hoarding' their knowledge inside expensive courses. I think it is probably more a case of the science being in its infancy and people not getting around to fully systematizing this knowledge. You might as well to criticise indiginous tibes for not broadcasting their plant knowledge over the internet- maybe they're too busy :-)

                                          Ideally this would have been done before but now might be the time as the movement seems to be just beginning to hit a critical mass and more people will be coming on board looking for 'starters'.

                                          > > >
                                          > > Hi Simon,
                                          > >
                                          > > Maybe I understand your question wrong but I see it like this:
                                          > >
                                          > > I find that sometimes people expect forest gardening to be like a jigsaw
                                          > > puzzle. Where plants are jigsaw pieces that fit together to make a picture.
                                          > > But it doesn't work like that. There are so many factors involved in
                                          > > determining which variety of plants to put where and in which
                                          > > combination: water, light, light what time of day, your taste buds,
                                          > > position to the house, neighbouring plants, people, pollution, soil
                                          > > type, wind, invasive plants and animals, diseases, pests, law, .... and
                                          > > the list goes on....
                                          > >
                                          > > I think choosing the right plants is more like a pokemon game where each
                                          > > character or plant has its own characteristics. And depending on the
                                          > > location it is for the player or gardener to discover and learn how to
                                          > > play the plants best. There are some clear and obvious rules and logical
                                          > > themes, but in the end no game is ever the same.
                                          > >
                                          > > There are a few good books out there, Patrick whitefields: 'How to make
                                          > > a forest garden' being my favorite. Or 'the earth care manual' is just
                                          > > delicious.
                                          > >
                                          > > But I always end up back at the Pfaf Database. The best there is.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many many thanks guy's for years and years of work putting up for free
                                          > > for everyone to use. (please feel free to send voluntary donations to
                                          > > them via paypal, info on the website.)
                                          > >
                                          > > Ludwig
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • bozomind
                                          On my own property, the Juglans nigra grows intermixed with Black and Honey Locust (most trees are either black walnut or a locust) which strongly suggests a
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                            On my own property, the Juglans nigra grows intermixed with Black and Honey Locust (most trees are either black walnut or a locust) which strongly suggests a natural guild there. Also have a few sour cherries growing next to the walnuts. Not too far away are some hawthorns (not fruit producing). Would love to work these trees into a guild where I use them as a deer barrier. Those spikes are something else!

                                            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                                            >
                                            > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                                            > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                                            > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                                            > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                                            > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                                            > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                                            >
                                            > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                                            > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                                            > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                                            > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                                            > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                                            > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                                            > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                                            >
                                            > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                                            > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                                            > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                                            > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                                            > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                                            >
                                            > Cheers, David
                                            >
                                          • bozomind
                                            Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                              Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!

                                              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > ..the methodology is based upon research using books basically - field guides for the relevant area, combined with knoledge of plant uses etc. So one needs a knoledge of ecology. By preference, Gaia's Garden recommended actual real world observation of the site, and locate native plants that fulfill the required roles in your FG or Permy system. The problem with this latter method here in the Uk is that there is a much smaller number of native plants to choose from. So exotics are required perhaps here. And exotics can be invasion. Yes invasive not oppourtunistic, as they squeeze out existing biodiversity sometimes. Japanese knotweed for example - this plkant is highly invasive. I've noticed it appear in the woods near Brightling where I have a permy unit. Soon the streamside, incredible anicient native woodland, will be filled with the reeking sickly sweet stench of this flowers of this triffidd like monster plant.
                                              >
                                              > So anyway. Winters here in the Northern hemisphere and everywhere is cold and mud moreor less in the Weald. Time to explore the Rif Mountains of Morrocco for the next FG site. Yes. Gonna try the magic alchemy there with the hope that state forces (basically) will not block the external community wide potential for magic there. That the Islamic senario will be usful in the work - the great work of pure vegan alchemy as started by the great saint, David Every.
                                              >
                                              > Poll> Do you belive in Vegan Alchemy?
                                              >
                                              > Yes or No?
                                            • bozomind
                                              Forgot to mention that the locusts produce seeds that taste like lentils if you get them while they re still green. Kinda small, but tasty.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                                Forgot to mention that the locusts produce seeds that taste like lentils if you get them while they're still green. Kinda small, but tasty.

                                                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, david.keltie@... wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Here's something on walnuts.....(from Northmoor Trust, Oxfordshire UK)
                                                >
                                                > "Most forestry literature regarding walnut silvicultural methods
                                                > suggest that walnut (Juglans regia) must be grown in open conditions
                                                > due to the species' intolerance to competition. Most other hardwood
                                                > tree species however can benefit from using a suitable nurse species,
                                                > including Juglans nigra, which has been shown to have improved growth
                                                > when grown with nitrogen-fixing nurse species.
                                                >
                                                > More recently there has been some experimentation on suitable nurse
                                                > species with black walnut (Juglans nigra) in the USA. In the USA black
                                                > walnut has been planted with black locust (Robinia pseudocacia L.),
                                                > 'autumn-olive' (Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb.) which we know as spreading
                                                > oleaster, and common alder (Alnus glutinosa). These species were
                                                > chosen for their nitrogen-fixing capabilities. They found that all
                                                > nurse species increased walnut growth, but only on certain sites.
                                                >
                                                > The Elaeagnus nurse promoted walnut height increases of up to 351%
                                                > over non-nursed walnuts. Problems with rapid growth from the black
                                                > locust necessitated severe control of nurse height (coppicing or
                                                > ring-barking). The alder nurse had a high mortality after 5 years due
                                                > to an allelopathic reaction with the walnut. "
                                                >
                                                > Cheers, David
                                                >
                                              • mIEKAL aND
                                                We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... Also be careful with polygonum & goats
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                                  We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes....  Also be careful with polygonum & goats because they'll eat the stuff until they explode....

                                                  ~mIEKAL

                                                  On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM, bozomind <bozomind@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!

                                                • Geir Flatabø
                                                  2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND ... Could you elaborate how you make the panpipes and flutes !?? Geir Flatabø ... 2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                                                    2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...>


                                                    We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... 
                                                    Could you elaborate
                                                    how you make the panpipes and flutes !??
                                                     
                                                    Geir Flatabø
                                                     
                                                    Also be careful with polygonum & goats because they'll eat the stuff until they explode....

                                                    ~mIEKAL


                                                    On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:30 AM, bozomind <bozomind@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    Although Japanese knotweed is invasive, the root is a well known source for the nutraceutical resveratrol and the flowers are loved by bees! Also, since it grows so prolifically, you can use it for a green mulch/compost. I certainly wouldn't recommend propagating it, but once it's there, it is handy multi-use plant!




                                                  • mIEKAL aND
                                                    I should make it clear that I m talking about Giant Japanese Knotweed, which around here gets to be 10-14 feet tall. Stalks are harvested in October. The
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                                                      I should make it clear that I'm talking about Giant Japanese Knotweed, which around here gets to be 10-14 feet tall.  Stalks are harvested in October.  The first step is to break thru the culms so that no moisture is stuck inside the tubes.  These will then dry to be just like bamboo (tho not nearly as strong).  For panpipes tubes are cut to different lengths & we use dried stalks of cupplant to hold a row of tubes together.  Then by using homemade sinew everything is wrapped up.  I completely wild-crafted music instrument.  To some degree the panpipes can be tuned by adjusting the length of the tubes.  Final touch is to put beeswax on the cut end of the tubes to make them easier on the lips.  I used to have some photos up on the permaculture wiki but I see the site is no longer up.

                                                      ~mIEKAL



                                                      On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:48 AM, Geir Flatabø <geirf@...> wrote:
                                                       



                                                      2009/12/1 mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...>



                                                      We use the shoots like asparagus in the spring & have dried the stalks & used them to make many panpipes & flutes.... 
                                                      Could you elaborate
                                                      how you make the panpipes and flutes !??
                                                       
                                                      Geir Flatabø
                                                    • listenstohorses
                                                      No way!!   try    http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/2266_0/tinkering-with-this-site/may-i-suggest-wiki-link-collection-bestof   ...   I used to
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Dec 2, 2009
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                                                        No way!!   try
                                                         
                                                         


                                                        --- On Wed, 12/2/09, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@...> wrote:

                                                          I used to have some photos up on the permaculture wiki but I see the site is no longer up.

                                                        ~mIEKAL

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