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Re: Forest garden in Ontario

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  • ryborgryborg268
    I would say it all depends what you want to do/achieve. Theres not a single answer but many to your questions. If you want species rich meadow, then manage the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 9, 2009
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      I would say it all depends what you want to do/achieve. Theres not a single answer but many to your questions. If you want species rich meadow, then manage the grass/hay in the suitable way underneath the trees, with alate cut for wildflowers followed perhaps by sheep grazing. However if you want edible etc outputs, then you must design an edible landscape. How about you look at this groups websites' database/links/etc and read up on the subject? In many ways just to leave it alone completely and let nature take over, with the apples providing huge bounty of food for wild birds etc, and the newly growing young woodland also very good for wildlife and flora. I love abondoned orchard! There is 150 acres of it just outside where I'm sitting now. I've planted many different types of trees into it. From walnuts to hazels/cobs...loads of stuff I can't even remember. The trees grow quite well in the grass. Now there are also huge amounts of young oak and sweet chestnut trees formed from seed that the birds have dropped when flying over from adjacent woodland. On the other hand to bring the apples back into production with a conncurrent re design on a large scale Forest garden edible landscape would be very good also. Read David Jackes etc book on Forest Gardens - they are North American based so maybe you could relativly easily go and do some studying with them. I would want to see what on the ground work they are doing also as it can be difficult to suss a subject out just from reading books.

      It might not be a good idea from a edible landscape production viewpoint to let stong growing brambles to take over the site by the way...but again, from the wilderness forming aspect this would be sound - so it all depends on what you want.

      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Geir Flatabø <geirf@...> wrote:
      >
      > No answer to your question,
      > except low cost would be to raise seedlings, and collect scions from people
      > here on this list...
      >
      > Bu my question is
      > which Bamboos are hardy in Ontario ???
      >
      > - and is ther any edibility in Catalpa except for honey production ??
      >
      > Geir Flatabø
      >
      > 2009/6/8 jenniferpittet <jenniferpittet@...>
      >
      > > June 8/09
      > >
      > > I live in Meaford, Canada which is an apple-growing region on the southern
      > > shore of Georgian Bay. Many of the old orchards here are being cut as apples
      > > are no longer considered a profitable crop and the remaining orchardists do
      > > not want diseases spread from abandoned orchards left standing. There are
      > > even government grants to assist people with the cost of cutting. We are
      > > trying to preserve and manage one of these abandoned orchards. The goal is
      > > to preserve the orchard as a source of food and shelter for wildlife, and
      > > also to harvest an apple crop (fruit and juice) for family and friends (but
      > > not necessarily to maximize production).
      > >
      > > The orchard consists of mostly standard-size spy, delicious and mcintosh
      > > trees. There are about 100 trees altogether and although some are falling
      > > down or splitting, they are still good producers.
      > >
      > > So far we have started to:
      > > - prune the trees again
      > > - increase diversity in the orchard with a few interplantings (bamboo,
      > > chestnut, catalpa)
      > > - allow some of the pioneer plants to take hold and spread (raspberry,
      > > hawthorns)
      > >
      > > How can we increase diversity as much as possible with relatively low cost
      > > and few external inputs?
      > > Are we doing the right thing by encouraging the pioneers?
      > > How can we reduce pest damage (aside from increasing diversity)?
      > > How can we best mulch the areas under the trees and should a goal be to
      > > eliminate the grass altogether?
      > >
      > > Any ideas are much appreciated!
      > >
      > > Jennifer
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • ryborgryborg268
      Go on a Forest Gardening course with David Jacke etc - they appear to be the leaders in the field in North America. I ve just been on one with Martin Crawford
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 9, 2009
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        Go on a Forest Gardening course with David Jacke etc - they appear to be the leaders in the field in North America. I've just been on one with Martin Crawford of the UK's Agroforstery Research Trust and the info show there is the sort of thing that you need to know - if a Forest Garden/edible landscape is what you want. I'd like to know how to bring overgrown apple trees etc back into production - the secrets oif remedial pruning. Maybe I'll go on course sometime to learn that, maybe someone will show me.

        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
        >
        > I would say it all depends what you want to do/achieve. Theres not a single answer but many to your questions. If you want species rich meadow, then manage the grass/hay in the suitable way underneath the trees, with alate cut for wildflowers followed perhaps by sheep grazing. However if you want edible etc outputs, then you must design an edible landscape. How about you look at this groups websites' database/links/etc and read up on the subject? In many ways just to leave it alone completely and let nature take over, with the apples providing huge bounty of food for wild birds etc, and the newly growing young woodland also very good for wildlife and flora. I love abondoned orchard! There is 150 acres of it just outside where I'm sitting now. I've planted many different types of trees into it. From walnuts to hazels/cobs...loads of stuff I can't even remember. The trees grow quite well in the grass. Now there are also huge amounts of young oak and sweet chestnut trees formed from seed that the birds have dropped when flying over from adjacent woodland. On the other hand to bring the apples back into production with a conncurrent re design on a large scale Forest garden edible landscape would be very good also. Read David Jackes etc book on Forest Gardens - they are North American based so maybe you could relativly easily go and do some studying with them. I would want to see what on the ground work they are doing also as it can be difficult to suss a subject out just from reading books.
        >
        > It might not be a good idea from a edible landscape production viewpoint to let stong growing brambles to take over the site by the way...but again, from the wilderness forming aspect this would be sound - so it all depends on what you want.
        >
        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Geir Flatabø <geirf@> wrote:
        > >
        > > No answer to your question,
        > > except low cost would be to raise seedlings, and collect scions from people
        > > here on this list...
        > >
        > > Bu my question is
        > > which Bamboos are hardy in Ontario ???
        > >
        > > - and is ther any edibility in Catalpa except for honey production ??
        > >
        > > Geir Flatabø
        > >
        > > 2009/6/8 jenniferpittet <jenniferpittet@>
        > >
        > > > June 8/09
        > > >
        > > > I live in Meaford, Canada which is an apple-growing region on the southern
        > > > shore of Georgian Bay. Many of the old orchards here are being cut as apples
        > > > are no longer considered a profitable crop and the remaining orchardists do
        > > > not want diseases spread from abandoned orchards left standing. There are
        > > > even government grants to assist people with the cost of cutting. We are
        > > > trying to preserve and manage one of these abandoned orchards. The goal is
        > > > to preserve the orchard as a source of food and shelter for wildlife, and
        > > > also to harvest an apple crop (fruit and juice) for family and friends (but
        > > > not necessarily to maximize production).
        > > >
        > > > The orchard consists of mostly standard-size spy, delicious and mcintosh
        > > > trees. There are about 100 trees altogether and although some are falling
        > > > down or splitting, they are still good producers.
        > > >
        > > > So far we have started to:
        > > > - prune the trees again
        > > > - increase diversity in the orchard with a few interplantings (bamboo,
        > > > chestnut, catalpa)
        > > > - allow some of the pioneer plants to take hold and spread (raspberry,
        > > > hawthorns)
        > > >
        > > > How can we increase diversity as much as possible with relatively low cost
        > > > and few external inputs?
        > > > Are we doing the right thing by encouraging the pioneers?
        > > > How can we reduce pest damage (aside from increasing diversity)?
        > > > How can we best mulch the areas under the trees and should a goal be to
        > > > eliminate the grass altogether?
        > > >
        > > > Any ideas are much appreciated!
        > > >
        > > > Jennifer
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • ryborgryborg268
        Depending on how much land you have you could do all these things and more! - an area of Forest Garden/Edible landscape, an area of orchard with species rich
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 9, 2009
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          Depending on how much land you have you could do all these things and more! - an area of Forest Garden/Edible landscape, an area of orchard with species rich meadow, an area of untouched wilderness regeneration, maybe an area of the same but with some plantings of canopy trees...the varieties depending on your climate.


          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ryborgryborg268" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
          >
          > I would say it all depends what you want to do/achieve. Theres not a single answer but many to your questions. If you want species rich meadow, then manage the grass/hay in the suitable way underneath the trees, with alate cut for wildflowers followed perhaps by sheep grazing. However if you want edible etc outputs, then you must design an edible landscape. How about you look at this groups websites' database/links/etc and read up on the subject? In many ways just to leave it alone completely and let nature take over, with the apples providing huge bounty of food for wild birds etc, and the newly growing young woodland also very good for wildlife and flora. I love abondoned orchard! There is 150 acres of it just outside where I'm sitting now. I've planted many different types of trees into it. From walnuts to hazels/cobs...loads of stuff I can't even remember. The trees grow quite well in the grass. Now there are also huge amounts of young oak and sweet chestnut trees formed from seed that the birds have dropped when flying over from adjacent woodland. On the other hand to bring the apples back into production with a conncurrent re design on a large scale Forest garden edible landscape would be very good also. Read David Jackes etc book on Forest Gardens - they are North American based so maybe you could relativly easily go and do some studying with them. I would want to see what on the ground work they are doing also as it can be difficult to suss a subject out just from reading books.
          >
          > It might not be a good idea from a edible landscape production viewpoint to let stong growing brambles to take over the site by the way...but again, from the wilderness forming aspect this would be sound - so it all depends on what you want.
          >
          > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Geir Flatabø <geirf@> wrote:
          > >
          > > No answer to your question,
          > > except low cost would be to raise seedlings, and collect scions from people
          > > here on this list...
          > >
          > > Bu my question is
          > > which Bamboos are hardy in Ontario ???
          > >
          > > - and is ther any edibility in Catalpa except for honey production ??
          > >
          > > Geir Flatabø
          > >
          > > 2009/6/8 jenniferpittet <jenniferpittet@>
          > >
          > > > June 8/09
          > > >
          > > > I live in Meaford, Canada which is an apple-growing region on the southern
          > > > shore of Georgian Bay. Many of the old orchards here are being cut as apples
          > > > are no longer considered a profitable crop and the remaining orchardists do
          > > > not want diseases spread from abandoned orchards left standing. There are
          > > > even government grants to assist people with the cost of cutting. We are
          > > > trying to preserve and manage one of these abandoned orchards. The goal is
          > > > to preserve the orchard as a source of food and shelter for wildlife, and
          > > > also to harvest an apple crop (fruit and juice) for family and friends (but
          > > > not necessarily to maximize production).
          > > >
          > > > The orchard consists of mostly standard-size spy, delicious and mcintosh
          > > > trees. There are about 100 trees altogether and although some are falling
          > > > down or splitting, they are still good producers.
          > > >
          > > > So far we have started to:
          > > > - prune the trees again
          > > > - increase diversity in the orchard with a few interplantings (bamboo,
          > > > chestnut, catalpa)
          > > > - allow some of the pioneer plants to take hold and spread (raspberry,
          > > > hawthorns)
          > > >
          > > > How can we increase diversity as much as possible with relatively low cost
          > > > and few external inputs?
          > > > Are we doing the right thing by encouraging the pioneers?
          > > > How can we reduce pest damage (aside from increasing diversity)?
          > > > How can we best mulch the areas under the trees and should a goal be to
          > > > eliminate the grass altogether?
          > > >
          > > > Any ideas are much appreciated!
          > > >
          > > > Jennifer
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • trentrhode
          Hi Jennifer! Good to see another forest garden enthusiast in Ontario. I m in Peterborough. I just converted a small orchard starting last year into a more
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 9, 2009
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            Hi Jennifer!
            Good to see another forest garden enthusiast in Ontario. I'm in Peterborough.

            I just converted a small orchard starting last year into a more diverse, resilient, more productive system. Grass is not good for orchards, or for trees in general (it's essentially toxic to them and inhibits their growth in various ways), so my main goal is to replace the grass with other plants that are actually beneficial to trees and have different rooting depths and patterns. One way I did this was to put cardboard down starting a foot or so out from the trunk, and then I put a bunch of soil on top of it (we got a huge load free from a green house that had been dumping all their used potting soil in a pile for years). Then, I simply left it, no mulch or anything, and sat back and watched what grew. There is a surprising diversity now, although I did a lot of plant pulling, and a lot of planting other things as well. However, nature did most of the work, and now I have much more diversity. Anything is better than grass! You want nitrogen fixers, dynamic accumulators, insectary, pest confusers, predator habitat, etc., all designed with compatibility in mind, in terms of rooting depths and patterns. Some design is in order here, and the place to start is definitely Dave Jacke's books Edible Forest Gardens. He is an amazing teacher, and I do highly recommend the courses he teaches.

            If you have any other questions, I'd be very happy to answer them. I've been working on designing edible ecosystems for only about five years, but I do have a lot of information, knowledge, wisdom, seeds and plants to share, and I will be in your area and would love to see what you're up to even sometime. Take care!

            ~Trent Rhode

            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "jenniferpittet" <jenniferpittet@...> wrote:
            >
            > June 8/09
            >
            > I live in Meaford, Canada which is an apple-growing region on the southern shore of Georgian Bay. Many of the old orchards here are being cut as apples are no longer considered a profitable crop and the remaining orchardists do not want diseases spread from abandoned orchards left standing. There are even government grants to assist people with the cost of cutting. We are trying to preserve and manage one of these abandoned orchards. The goal is to preserve the orchard as a source of food and shelter for wildlife, and also to harvest an apple crop (fruit and juice) for family and friends (but not necessarily to maximize production).
            >
            > The orchard consists of mostly standard-size spy, delicious and mcintosh trees. There are about 100 trees altogether and although some are falling down or splitting, they are still good producers.
            >
            > So far we have started to:
            > - prune the trees again
            > - increase diversity in the orchard with a few interplantings (bamboo, chestnut, catalpa)
            > - allow some of the pioneer plants to take hold and spread (raspberry, hawthorns)
            >
            > How can we increase diversity as much as possible with relatively low cost and few external inputs?
            > Are we doing the right thing by encouraging the pioneers?
            > How can we reduce pest damage (aside from increasing diversity)?
            > How can we best mulch the areas under the trees and should a goal be to eliminate the grass altogether?
            >
            > Any ideas are much appreciated!
            >
            > Jennifer
            >
          • Brian
            If you want a cheep weed supressor use the matting / chips / carpet whatever on top But put under it any free plastic you can get as its protected from sun
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 10, 2009
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              If you want a cheep weed supressor use the matting / chips / carpet whatever on top

              But put under it any free plastic you can get as its protected from sun will last ages and stop weeds comming through

              U may need to fork it so water can get in

              I got hold of a lot of thick sheet rubber and grow most stuff in narrow gaps with " paths " of the rubber strips then grass cuttings on the remaining soil

              Only stuff not appear to like it is Garlic and rasburies

              Brian
            • ryborgryborg268
              I thought about using the woven plastic matting/rolls that you can get...thus allowing water through whilst suppressing weeds for a while.
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 11, 2009
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                I thought about using the woven plastic matting/rolls that you can get...thus allowing water through whilst suppressing weeds for a while.

                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <yarhoo@...> wrote:
                >
                > If you want a cheep weed supressor use the matting / chips / carpet whatever on top
                >
                > But put under it any free plastic you can get as its protected from sun will last ages and stop weeds comming through
                >
                > U may need to fork it so water can get in
                >
                > I got hold of a lot of thick sheet rubber and grow most stuff in narrow gaps with " paths " of the rubber strips then grass cuttings on the remaining soil
                >
                > Only stuff not appear to like it is Garlic and rasburies
                >
                > Brian
                >
              • Mohammed Alal Khan
                ... From: ryborgryborg268 To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:12 PM Subject: [pfaf] Re: Photos from the Agroforestry Research Trust etc -
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 11, 2009
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: ryborgryborg268
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:12 PM
                  Subject: [pfaf] Re: Photos from the Agroforestry Research Trust etc - just uploaded onto the website





                  I thought about using the woven plastic matting/rolls that you can get...thus allowing water through whilst suppressing weeds for a while.

                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <yarhoo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If you want a cheep weed supressor use the matting / chips / carpet whatever on top
                  >
                  > But put under it any free plastic you can get as its protected from sun will last ages and stop weeds comming through
                  >
                  > U may need to fork it so water can get in
                  >
                  > I got hold of a lot of thick sheet rubber and grow most stuff in narrow gaps with " paths " of the rubber strips then grass cuttings on the remaining soil
                  >
                  > Only stuff not appear to like it is Garlic and rasburies
                  >
                  > Brian
                  >





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