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Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES

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  • brynbobthomas
    Propagation of the vast majority of apple varieties from cuttings is said to be diffiult & unreliable. However it is possible to grow apples on their own
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 5, 2008
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      Propagation of the vast majority of apple varieties from cuttings is
      said to be diffiult & unreliable.

      However it is possible to grow apples on their own roots. The initail
      process is somewaht involved but once a variety is growing on its own
      roots root cuttings can be taken. We took our very late last season &
      didnt have a great take rate but the ones that did grow have grown
      very strongly & look very healthy.

      Work done by Hugh Ermen at Brogdale would suggest that the doption of
      own root trees could revolutionise apple growing, however his work
      was suppressed & unpublished as all the focus has been on developing
      rootstocks. The advantages of growing apples on their own roots
      should not be overlooked. Claims include:
      • Better tree health
      • Better resistance to pests and diseases
      • Better fruit set
      • Better overall fruit quality
      • Better flavour
      • Better storage life
      • Better ability to cope with poor soils and drought

      Links:
      • Info about Hugh Ermen's unpublished & supressed work at Brogdale
      can be found at: http://www.orangepippin.com/articles/own-roots.aspx
      • Info from Phil Corbett @ cool temperate nursery, the only supplier
      of own root trees can be found at:
      http://www.cooltemperate.co.uk/own_root.shtml

      • We also do a course led by Phil:
      http://www.brightonpermaculture.co.uk/courses_events/ownroot09.html

      Bryn



      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Sara Elbrai <selbrai@...> wrote:
      >
      > It is possible to grow apple trees from cuttings but it is very
      difficult and very slow. Even when you can get roots, it takes years
      for the cutting to grow and usually produces small weak trees.
      >
      > It is far easier to graft them.
      >
      > Sara
      >
      >
      > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Mary Lloyd <mary@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: Mary Lloyd <mary@...>
      > > Subject: [pfaf] apple cuttings
      > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 8:14 AM
      > > Hi all,
      > > Does anyone know if it is possible to grow an apple
      > > tree from a cutting? There is a very old one in a park
      > > locally and the flavour of the fruit is wonderful. One day I
      > > am afraid someone will want to cut it down and just in case
      > > they do, I would like to make sure I can still have some of
      > > those apples.
      > > I read up on grafting, and it seems an awful
      > > faff...I was wondering if anyone has successfully rooted an
      > > apple twig in water or directly in the earth? it would save
      > > a lot of trouble and time.
      > > I hear if you grow from seed the apples don't
      > > come true.
      > > Thanks and love
      > > Whinnie
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • manofpeace32
      HI Wepping willow ( -- genus -- salix) is a rotting horome. you can soak the branches/ leaves in water for a few days then put some cuttings in it. I never
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 9, 2008
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        HI Wepping willow ( -- genus -- salix) is a rotting horome.
        you can soak the branches/ leaves in water for a few days then put some
        cuttings in it.

        I never used it yet I'v used rotting hormone,
        but I think I will give it a try --Im not sure if my rotting hormone
        isn't good any more, but I hear good things about willow(salix) on a
        Organic gardening homesteading forum.

        Oh Also The cuttings wouldn't hurt in the dark thats heat I've done
        with grapes. I have also put the container on top My furnance to keep
        the bottom of the buds warm (It can melt if it is styro foam)

        I have also seen some one make a green house with a aquarium with
        light, with tape lines and those scotch tape stripes block half the
        light.


        As a matter of fact
        I was suppoosed to pick up a aquarium for that last night on my bike
        That I hid, On the bike trail, but I guess some one found it.

        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Lloyd" <mary@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        ...I was wondering if anyone has successfully rooted an apple twig in
        water or directly in the earth? it would save a lot of trouble and time.
        > Thanks and love
        > Whinnie
        >
      • ciprian muntean
        Check this link about root hormone from willow http://www.garden-helper.com/Articles/Make-Your-Own-Rooting-Hormone.asp
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 11, 2008
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        • Peter Ellis
          The message ... That is useful! I was trying to find some rooting hormone the other day. Cheers Peter
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 11, 2008
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            The message <271095.28299.qm@...>
            from ciprian muntean <cipm66@...> contains these words:

            > Check this link about root hormone from willow
            > http://www.garden-helper.com/Articles/Make-Your-Own-Rooting-Hormone.asp

            That is useful! I was trying to find some rooting hormone the other day.

            Cheers

            Peter
          • Sara Elbrai
            I agree that more work should be done on root cuttings, but we know there are some significant issues. Some trees are simply not very vigorous on their own
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 15, 2008
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              I agree that more work should be done on root cuttings, but we know there are some significant issues.

              Some trees are simply not very vigorous on their own roots or are susceptible to disease or have difficulty growing in cerain soil conditions. That gives an edge to being able to choose rootstock for grafts.

              Many apple tree varieties no longer exist on their own roots at all or perhaps exist as only one or two rooted trees.

              Sara


              --- On Wed, 11/5/08, brynbobthomas <brynbobthomas@...> wrote:

              > From: brynbobthomas <brynbobthomas@...>
              > Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES
              > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 6:27 AM
              > Propagation of the vast majority of apple varieties from
              > cuttings is
              > said to be diffiult & unreliable.
              >
              > However it is possible to grow apples on their own roots.
              > The initail
              > process is somewaht involved but once a variety is growing
              > on its own
              > roots root cuttings can be taken. We took our very late
              > last season &
              > didnt have a great take rate but the ones that did grow
              > have grown
              > very strongly & look very healthy.
              >
              > Work done by Hugh Ermen at Brogdale would suggest that the
              > doption of
              > own root trees could revolutionise apple growing, however
              > his work
              > was suppressed & unpublished as all the focus has been
              > on developing
              > rootstocks. The advantages of growing apples on their own
              > roots
              > should not be overlooked. Claims include:
              > • Better tree health
              > • Better resistance to pests and diseases
              > • Better fruit set
              > • Better overall fruit quality
              > • Better flavour
              > • Better storage life
              > • Better ability to cope with poor soils and drought
              >
              > Links:
              > • Info about Hugh Ermen's unpublished & supressed
              > work at Brogdale
              > can be found at:
              > http://www.orangepippin.com/articles/own-roots.aspx
              > • Info from Phil Corbett @ cool temperate nursery, the
              > only supplier
              > of own root trees can be found at:
              > http://www.cooltemperate.co.uk/own_root.shtml
              >
              > • We also do a course led by Phil:
              > http://www.brightonpermaculture.co.uk/courses_events/ownroot09.html
              >
              > Bryn
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Sara Elbrai
              > <selbrai@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > It is possible to grow apple trees from cuttings but
              > it is very
              > difficult and very slow. Even when you can get roots, it
              > takes years
              > for the cutting to grow and usually produces small weak
              > trees.
              > >
              > > It is far easier to graft them.
              > >
              > > Sara
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Mary Lloyd <mary@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > > From: Mary Lloyd <mary@...>
              > > > Subject: [pfaf] apple cuttings
              > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 8:14 AM
              > > > Hi all,
              > > > Does anyone know if it is possible to grow
              > an apple
              > > > tree from a cutting? There is a very old one in a
              > park
              > > > locally and the flavour of the fruit is
              > wonderful. One day I
              > > > am afraid someone will want to cut it down and
              > just in case
              > > > they do, I would like to make sure I can still
              > have some of
              > > > those apples.
              > > > I read up on grafting, and it seems an
              > awful
              > > > faff...I was wondering if anyone has successfully
              > rooted an
              > > > apple twig in water or directly in the earth? it
              > would save
              > > > a lot of trouble and time.
              > > > I hear if you grow from seed the apples
              > don't
              > > > come true.
              > > > Thanks and love
              > > > Whinnie
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Bryn Thomas
              Apple on their own roots display a wide spectrum of rigours from equivalent to M9 through to MM111, so some varieties will form small trees of low vigour,
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 29, 2008
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                Apple on their own roots display a wide spectrum of rigours from equivalent to M9 through to MM111, so some varieties will form small trees of low vigour, though this may be desirable at times.

                More work needs to be done, but it may well be true to say that some varieties on their own roots will perform poorly on certain soils, however conversely it may also be true that some will perform significantly better than grafted trees on other soils.

                The logical extension of this work may be that each OR apple variety may well have its own niche, possibly offering significant diversification in how we might be able to cultivate apples.

                It is possible to get any variety growing on its own roots again by nurse grafting.

                Bryn
              • Mary Lloyd
                Hi Bryn, thanks for this. I now have 3 root cuttings from that fab old apple variety with the quince shape, so I am hoping to get at least one tree. Just
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 30, 2008
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                  Hi Bryn, thanks for this.
                  I now have 3 root cuttings from that fab old apple variety with the quince shape, so I am hoping to get at least one tree. Just lately I was thinking, oh Lord, I haven't got room for more than one tree if they are going to be the same size as the parent tree, so reading this, maybe I don't have to worry.
                  Love, Whinnie
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bryn Thomas
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:53 PM
                  Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES


                  Apple on their own roots display a wide spectrum of rigours from equivalent to M9 through to MM111, so some varieties will form small trees of low vigour, though this may be desirable at times.

                  More work needs to be done, but it may well be true to say that some varieties on their own roots will perform poorly on certain soils, however conversely it may also be true that some will perform significantly better than grafted trees on other soils.

                  The logical extension of this work may be that each OR apple variety may well have its own niche, possibly offering significant diversification in how we might be able to cultivate apples.

                  It is possible to get any variety growing on its own roots again by nurse grafting.

                  Bryn





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • leokea
                  I would like to learn more about rootstocks and denomination of it. I mean to know more about equivalent to M9 through to MM111 Can anybody provide a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 30, 2008
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                    I would like to learn more about rootstocks and denomination of it. I
                    mean to know more about "equivalent to M9 through to MM111"
                    Can anybody provide a complete list, probable with some accompanying
                    explanation? Or good urls about it?
                    Thanks a lot for it.
                    Leo Flandriae

                    In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Lloyd" <mary@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Bryn, thanks for this.
                    > I now have 3 root cuttings from that fab old apple variety
                    with the quince shape, so I am hoping to get at least one tree. Just
                    lately I was thinking, oh Lord, I haven't got room for more than one
                    tree if they are going to be the same size as the parent tree, so
                    reading this, maybe I don't have to worry.
                    > Love, Whinnie
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Bryn Thomas
                    > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:53 PM
                    > Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES
                    >
                    >
                    > Apple on their own roots display a wide spectrum of rigours from
                    equivalent to M9 through to MM111, so some varieties will form small
                    trees of low vigour, though this may be desirable at times.
                    >
                    > More work needs to be done, but it may well be true to say that
                    some varieties on their own roots will perform poorly on certain
                    soils, however conversely it may also be true that some will perform
                    significantly better than grafted trees on other soils.
                    >
                    > The logical extension of this work may be that each OR apple
                    variety may well have its own niche, possibly offering significant
                    diversification in how we might be able to cultivate apples.
                    >
                    > It is possible to get any variety growing on its own roots again
                    by nurse grafting.
                    >
                    > Bryn
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Bryn Thomas
                    2 web sites that list main UK apple rootstocks: http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/rootstocks.aspx?fruittype=0 http://www.brogdale.org/chooserootstock.html
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 5, 2008
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                      2 web sites that list main UK apple rootstocks:
                      http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/rootstocks.aspx?fruittype=0
                      http://www.brogdale.org/chooserootstock.html
                      Surprisingly brogadale don't list MM111, an excellent rootstock in my limited experience
                    • Bryn Thomas
                      Hi Whinnie I m sure you are aware of this, but just in case... Most apples are grafted & so root cuttings will be of the rootstock not the variety & will be
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 5, 2008
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                        Hi Whinnie

                        I'm sure you are aware of this, but just in case...
                        Most apples are grafted & so root cuttings will be of the rootstock not the variety & will be completely different. If however the tree is already growing on its own roots its root cutting babbies will probably reach the same size!

                        Bryn
                      • Mary Lloyd
                        Thank you Bryn! I am taking a chance that it isn t grafted as it is quite an old tree. But also will try to do some normal grafting from it onto another tree
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 15, 2008
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                          Thank you Bryn!
                          I am taking a chance that it isn't grafted as it is quite an old tree. But also will try to do some normal grafting from it onto another tree we already have, just to make sure we get the fruit. It really is a wonderful flavour, looking and smelling like quince, and golden yellow, but tasting like a highly aromatic apple. I passed the tree the other day and there is fruit still on the parent even in this freezing weather, but no leaves left. Seems unusual.
                          Nice to hear from you.
                          Love, Whinnie
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Bryn Thomas
                          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:52 PM
                          Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES


                          Hi Whinnie

                          I'm sure you are aware of this, but just in case...
                          Most apples are grafted & so root cuttings will be of the rootstock not the variety & will be completely different. If however the tree is already growing on its own roots its root cutting babbies will probably reach the same size!

                          Bryn





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Griselda Mussett
                          Hi Whinnie, don t hit me on the head for this but are you sure it isn t actually a quince? It sounds like one. Munching apples and quinces here in Kent,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 16, 2008
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                            Hi Whinnie, don't hit me on the head for this but are you sure it
                            isn't actually a quince? It sounds like one.
                            Munching apples and quinces here in Kent,
                            Griselda


                            On 16 Dec 2008, at 00:29, Mary Lloyd wrote:

                            > Thank you Bryn!
                            > I am taking a chance that it isn't grafted as it is quite an old
                            > tree. But also will try to do some normal grafting from it onto
                            > another tree we already have, just to make sure we get the fruit.
                            > It really is a wonderful flavour, looking and smelling like quince,
                            > and golden yellow, but tasting like a highly aromatic apple. I
                            > passed the tree the other day and there is fruit still on the
                            > parent even in this freezing weather, but no leaves left. Seems
                            > unusual.
                            > Nice to hear from you.
                            > Love, Whinnie
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Bryn Thomas
                            > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:52 PM
                            > Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES
                            >
                            > Hi Whinnie
                            >
                            > I'm sure you are aware of this, but just in case...
                            > Most apples are grafted & so root cuttings will be of the rootstock
                            > not the variety & will be completely different. If however the tree
                            > is already growing on its own roots its root cutting babbies will
                            > probably reach the same size!
                            >
                            > Bryn
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            The news isn't that fruits and vegetables are good for you ~ it's
                            that they are so good for you they could save your life.
                            By David Bjerklie, TIME Magazine, October 20,
                            2003
                            Juice PLUS+ Capsules contain 17 fruits, vegetables, oats and grains.
                            The ingredients are apples, cranberries, dates, oranges, papaya,
                            peaches, pineapples, beets, broccoli, carrots, cabbage, kale,
                            tomatoes, parsley, garlic, spinach, rice bran (no gluten), and oats
                            (no gluten).
                            and ~ NEW - Juice PLUS+ Vineyard Blend adds Blueberries, Cranberries,
                            Concorde Grape, Blackberries, Bilberries, Grape Seed, Raspberry,
                            Elderberries, Red Currants, and Black Currants.
                            Check it out www.juiceplus.co.uk/+gm027255






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mary Lloyd
                            Hi Griselda! Yes, I am sure it isn t a quince. My sister grows quinces and sends me some every year, and they have different taste, not really something you
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 16, 2008
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                              Hi Griselda!
                              Yes, I am sure it isn't a quince. My sister grows quinces and sends me some every year, and they have different taste, not really something you would sink your teeth into! Also they have that fluffy downy stuff on the outside, which these apples don't: their skins are thin and progressively waxy in keeping.
                              The flavour of this is like the most superb cooking apple, deeply aromatic and far superior to Bramley. It is tart but not bitter in the slightest, and becomes rich with the adding of sugar. The texture is not so apt to fluff up in the cooking as Bramley is, it holds its shape. But it is juicy and soft and not in the slightest chewy or grainy.
                              Now I am getting hungry, haha.
                              If I have some success with this I will let you know!
                              Happy Christmas everyone.
                              Love, Whinnie
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Griselda Mussett
                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:20 AM
                              Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES


                              Hi Whinnie, don't hit me on the head for this but are you sure it
                              isn't actually a quince? It sounds like one.
                              Munching apples and quinces here in Kent,
                              Griselda

                              On 16 Dec 2008, at 00:29, Mary Lloyd wrote:

                              > Thank you Bryn!
                              > I am taking a chance that it isn't grafted as it is quite an old
                              > tree. But also will try to do some normal grafting from it onto
                              > another tree we already have, just to make sure we get the fruit.
                              > It really is a wonderful flavour, looking and smelling like quince,
                              > and golden yellow, but tasting like a highly aromatic apple. I
                              > passed the tree the other day and there is fruit still on the
                              > parent even in this freezing weather, but no leaves left. Seems
                              > unusual.
                              > Nice to hear from you.
                              > Love, Whinnie
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Bryn Thomas
                              > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:52 PM
                              > Subject: [pfaf] Re: apple cuttings & OWN ROOT APPLES
                              >
                              > Hi Whinnie
                              >
                              > I'm sure you are aware of this, but just in case...
                              > Most apples are grafted & so root cuttings will be of the rootstock
                              > not the variety & will be completely different. If however the tree
                              > is already growing on its own roots its root cutting babbies will
                              > probably reach the same size!
                              >
                              > Bryn
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              The news isn't that fruits and vegetables are good for you ~ it's
                              that they are so good for you they could save your life.
                              By David Bjerklie, TIME Magazine, October 20,
                              2003
                              Juice PLUS+ Capsules contain 17 fruits, vegetables, oats and grains.
                              The ingredients are apples, cranberries, dates, oranges, papaya,
                              peaches, pineapples, beets, broccoli, carrots, cabbage, kale,
                              tomatoes, parsley, garlic, spinach, rice bran (no gluten), and oats
                              (no gluten).
                              and ~ NEW - Juice PLUS+ Vineyard Blend adds Blueberries, Cranberries,
                              Concorde Grape, Blackberries, Bilberries, Grape Seed, Raspberry,
                              Elderberries, Red Currants, and Black Currants.
                              Check it out www.juiceplus.co.uk/+gm027255

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Bryn Thomas
                              A further note. Probably 99.99% of apple trees are grafted, which has been common practice since before Roman times. Exceptions are apples grown from seed
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 19, 2008
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                                A further note. Probably 99.99% of apple trees are grafted, which has been common practice since before Roman times. Exceptions are apples grown from seed [most of which dont give good fruit] or trees that have managed to put down roots from the trunk or branches cos they fallen over or the ground level has changed.

                                Bryn
                              • Bryn Thomas
                                Some info at this link: http://www.vintagevirginiaapples.com/apples/tinsleyquince.htm
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 19, 2008
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