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The American Grey Squirrel in Europe

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  • cromlech108
    Another recent article from the Dendro... AMERICAN SQUIRRELS IN EUROPE by Miles Barnes The Eastern Grey Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) is a native of eastern
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 14, 2008
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      Another recent article from the Dendro...

      AMERICAN SQUIRRELS IN EUROPE
      by Miles Barnes

      The Eastern Grey Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) is a native of
      eastern North America.

      It was first introduced to mainland Britain in 1876, to Ireland in
      1911 and to Italy in 1948. These are the three European countries now
      hosting this destructive alien. Grey squirrels were also introduced to
      Australia where they failed and to South Africa where they persist and
      cause damage.

      The 1876 introduction to Britain took place in Cheshire. Subsequent
      introductions and translocations across the British Isles ensured the
      grey squirrel's survival and spread. Today, despite trapping,
      shooting, poisoning and the destruction of dreys, the grey squirrel
      occupies almost all of mainland England and Wales and much of lowland
      Scotland. There are probably now some five million animals in Britain,
      Impact on trees, birds and fruit through competition for food and
      perhaps for nesting sites and through the transmission of squirrel pox
      virus, the grey squirrel has displaced the native red squirrel
      (Sciurus vulgaris L. Kerr) as it has advanced across Britain and Ireland.

      In these countries, the future for the native squirrel is bleak.
      The grey squirrel in Britain and Ireland strips the bark from some 40
      species of native, exotic, broadleaved and coniferous trees. Healthy
      regenerating woodland is particularly vulnerable as trees between 10
      and 40 years old are much favoured by the bark strippers. The writer
      has seen in the Forest of Dean a dense stand of naturally regenerated
      oak where 20 year old saplings have been attacked repeatedly over a
      period of years. Some were already dead, others seemed unlikely to
      survive and even the best were so maimed that any prospect that one or
      two might eventually replace the adjacent stand of mature oak seemed
      unlikely. Three years ago in a Norfolk wood where grey squirrels are
      controlled, a naturally regenerated stand of excellent 15 year old
      sycamore was suddenly attacked. It was not possible to find an
      undamaged stem. Scenes such as these lead one to doubt that today's
      tall forest trees will be succeeded by a new generation of similar
      stature and quality. The consequences for tomorrow's timber production
      and the landscape will disadvantage our descendants.

      Grey squirrels also plunder the nests of woodland birds - as indeed do
      red squirrels occasionally. But grey squirrels live at greater
      densities than the red and are heavier. As a result, the food required
      by grey squirrels is ten times more per hectare than the red. A two
      year field study commencing this year seeks to quantify the impact of
      grey squirrels on the productivity of woodland birds in lowland England.

      Grey squirrels strip shrubs and trees of their fruit; notably hazel
      and walnut which are taken green. Hazel . seedlings are now a rarity
      in many woods and walnut trees near woodland no longer supply nuts for
      the owner's table.

      The unfolding tragedy in the British Isles is grave but at least here
      grey squirrels are confined by sea and do not directly threaten
      continental Europe. Italy is a different matter.

      Their history in Italy

      Grey squirrels have been released at three sites in northern Italy.
      The first was near Stupinigi Park just south of Turin in 1948. After
      some 30 years of consolidation, this group started to spread and soon
      caught the attention of zoologists at the University of Turin. An
      attempt to eradicate part of this colony in 1997 failed due to a court
      order aborting the exercise. As a result of this misconceived action,
      the Turin colony continued to expand and in 1999 covered nearly 900
      square km. Regrettably, no survey has been undertaken since then but
      on the evidence of road kill, it is probable that grey squirrels
      recently entered the pre-alpine forest near Pinerolo south west of
      Turin. This places the entire alpine environment at risk.
      Secondly, grey squirrels were released at Genoa Nervi in 1966. This
      colony, bounded by the sea and the town, remains small and, with local
      support, could easily be eliminated.

      Finally, in about 1995, grey squirrels were released in Piedmont near
      the Ticino river south of Lake Maggiore. It is thought that there are
      now some 100 or 200 animals on either side of the river. Local and
      national authorities last June agreed to eradicate grey squirrels in
      the Ticino Regional Park on the Lombardy side of the river but a i
      start has not yet been made (February 2007).

      There were worrying reports in late 2006 of grey squirrels seen
      northeast of Milan in the Colli di Bergamo and near the regional park
      of Montevecchia. These sightings have not yet been confirmed.

      Recorded damage in Italy

      The impact of grey squirrels on trees and red squirrels is well
      documented in Britain and Ireland. Grey squirrels near Turin have
      already caused much local damage to commercial poplar plantations.
      In one small village, a landowner has been forced to uproot his
      damaged poplars and reiurn the land to lucerne; a tree nursery has
      stopped raising large seeded trees from seed because grey squirrels
      raid the seedbeds; grey squirrels have stripped the bark from chestnut
      trees in a private park; the roof of a loose-tiled farm building has
      been damaged; insulation protecting electrical wiring has been
      stripped in a roof space creating a high risk of fire and, of course,
      the red squirrel has disappeared.

      50km south of Turin lies the nut growing district around the town of
      Alba, the home of Ferrero Spa. Here hazelnut plantations provide
      farmers with their principal source of livelihood. The land is mostly
      undulating and cut by steep wooded valleys offering the perfect
      habitat for grey squirrels. The plantations are on the higher ground
      but intimately connected to the woodland.

      It is not known how close the grey squirrel has reached to this
      productive area but farmers, already battling to save their crops from
      the edible dormouse (Glis glis), are both fearful and angry at the
      prospect of a grey squirrel invasion.

      The first Italian scientist to recognise the danger of grey squirrels
      was the late Professor Currado of Turin University some twenty years ago.

      Since then, a small but dedicated body of scientists from Turin,
      Varese and Bologna has studied grey squirrels and has tried to alert
      the authorities to the danger; and to the need to eradicate them while
      numbers remained low and before they reached the pre-alpine forest.
      Only very recently have some regional governments started to listen.

      The spread into Europe and beyond

      The grey squirrel in northern Italy has implications for the whole of
      Europe and eventually for Asia. Grey squirrels in the Po Valley
      constitute a test of the European Union's resolve to protect
      biodiversity. Of the three Italian colonies, Genoa Nervi and the
      Ticino could be eradicated now, using conventional methods. For Turin,
      it may be too late for eradication using conventional means, but
      stringent control measures ought to be implemented to protect the
      environment and rural prosperity.

      Failure to eradicate the Italian grey squirrel population before it
      crosses the Alps will enable this invasive alien to colonise the great
      forests of France and central Europe.

      The cost of such an invasion to rural economies would be huge but
      the environmental cost might be far greater.

      In order to alert European countries to the danger, a British charity
      called the European Squirrel Initiative (ESI) commissioned the
      Universities of Turin and Newcastle to undertake a study to predict
      the rate of spread of grey squirrels from the Po Valley across Italy
      and into neighbouring countries. The report was launched in Turin in
      May 2006 and copies were sent to conservationists and governments
      across Europe. The report found that in a worst case scenario, grey
      squirrels would enter France and Switzerland in about 30 years and
      that by the end of the century, grey squirrels would be advancing
      strongly through France and Switzerland and in Italy will have
      colonised Piedmont, Liguria, Lombardy and the northern Apennines.

      Control and eradication

      For the past 75 years, attempts to prevent the spread of grey
      squirrels in Britain and Ireland have failed. The weapons used have
      been shooting, trapping, poisoning with warfarin and destruction of dreys.

      Control... the cost is high

      Tree damage occurs when grey squirrel numbers exceed a critical
      density of five animals per hectare. Bark stripping occurs in Britain
      between May and August. It is during this period that the squirrel
      population suddenly increases as the young leave the dreys. Where a
      control programme is rigorously applied, limited areas of vulnerable
      woodland can be protected provided the squirrel population is kept
      well beneath the critical density. The cost is high and the programme
      must be conducted over the 20 years during which most young trees
      remain vulnerable. Neglect for just one ' season can undo all the good
      work of previous years.

      Eradication by IMC

      For eradication to succeed, both public support and a new weapon are
      required. A recent poll conducted in the UK found that over 60% of the
      population would support the eradication of grey squirrels if this did
      not involve killing animals.

      Fortunately, a non-lethal method with this potential does exist. It is
      called immuno-contraception or IMC. This is a technology that uses
      antigens to stimulate a desired response in the body's immune system.
      It has been used to prevent animals from breeding. There is therefore
      a potential to control or eradicate pest mammals without killing them.
      Lacking young, the target population would die of old age within a few
      years. In the case of the grey squirrel, this would permit the
      reintroduction of red squirrels to their former range in Britain and
      Ireland and bring to an end the damage to trees and the pressure on
      woodland birds.

      Scientists in New Zealand, Australia and America are working to
      develop IMC as a means of protecting biodiversity and rural prosperity
      from alien mammals. In Europe, there are more than 20 alien mammals in
      the wild, many of them rodents like the squirrel. If IMC could be used
      to liberate Europe from the grey squirrel, it should be possible to
      eradicate coypu, muskrat and other destructive rodents.
      This greatly enhances the prospects for funding the necessary research.

      If IMC can be used to eradicate grey squirrels in Italy, it would save
      Europe from the grey invasion and give hope to beleaguered foresters
      and conservetionjjsts fn-Britain~and Ireland.
      Let us pray that scientists will soon be given the resources needed to
      develop this new weapon.

      Note The European Squirrel Initiative was founded in 2002 to protect
      trees, woodland birds and red squirrels by campaigning to eradicate
      the American grey squirrel in Europe. It is a privately funded UK
      charity. For further information see www.europeansquirrelinitiatwe or
      email miles@europeansquirrel initiative.co.uk


      From the Dendrologist (see previous article for contact address)

      I personally thinking hunting them for food is fine - they make good
      eating.
    • ingrid glass
      An alternative view : http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html Unfortunately the petition has now closed. Red squirrels had been in serious
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 14, 2008
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        An alternative view : http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html Unfortunately the petition has now closed.

        Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a greater problem than the damage greys do. There are many disputable 'facts' in the articles you have posted - see my link above.

        Whilst I'm not denying greys can be a problem, it has led to them being scapegoated in a big way. I'm not sure why you've suddenly decided to post these articles and whether this is the right forum to discuss these issues. Yes, in the case of a threat to nut trees, but your articles are a one-sided 'grey squirrel to blame for everything' piece of scaremongering. Alas in this country if you are grey & common you are very unpopular - feral pigeons are also blamed for all sorts. No-one wants to feed them, only pretty little birds.

        Ingrid

        _________________________________________________________________

        All new Live Search at Live.com

        http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000006ukm/direct/01/

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      • Infowolf1@aol.com
        why did they fail in Australia? is there some natural predator there that might work against them in Europe? In a message dated 6/14/2008 8:35:59 A.M. Pacific
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 14, 2008
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          why did they fail in Australia? is there some natural predator there
          that might work against them in Europe?


          In a message dated 6/14/2008 8:35:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          cromlech108@... writes:




          ... Grey squirrels were also introduced to
          Australia where they failed and to South Africa where they persist and cause
          damage.

          .







          **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
          2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim
          ... http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html Unfortunately the petition has now closed. ... introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 15, 2008
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            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, ingrid glass <ingrid_glass@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > An alternative view :
            http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html Unfortunately
            the petition has now closed.
            >
            > Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the
            introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal
            (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer
            deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here
            BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds
            unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a greater
            problem than the damage greys do. There are many disputable 'facts' in
            the articles you have posted - see my link above.
            >
            > Whilst I'm not denying greys can be a problem, it has led to them
            being scapegoated in a big way. I'm not sure why you've suddenly
            decided to post these articles and whether this is the right forum to
            discuss these issues. Yes, in the case of a threat to nut trees, but
            your articles are a one-sided 'grey squirrel to blame for everything'
            piece of scaremongering. Alas in this country if you are grey & common
            you are very unpopular - feral pigeons are also blamed for all sorts.
            No-one wants to feed them, only pretty little birds.
            >
            > Ingrid
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            >
            > All new Live Search at Live.com
            >
            > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000006ukm/direct/01/
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >


            Well in terms of producing fruit and nut tree crop (rather than off
            topic 'animal rights' issues) the fact of the matter is that grey
            squirrels are a very serious problem. Sure, when I first got the land
            I wanted a totally non violent Tibet style reserve; but I've learnt
            the hard way, and so as a nut farmer, I will be letting out the
            hunting rights for the grey squirrel. The meat will be eaten.

            Sorry!
          • Jim
            I didn t know they had been introduced there- or that they failed to take hold. Many other European species have of course, rabbits, dogs, white people and the
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 15, 2008
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              I didn't know they had been introduced there- or that they failed to
              take hold. Many other European species have of course, rabbits, dogs,
              white people and the like.


              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
              >
              > why did they fail in Australia? is there some natural predator there
              > that might work against them in Europe?
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 6/14/2008 8:35:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > cromlech108@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ... Grey squirrels were also introduced to
              > Australia where they failed and to South Africa where they persist
              and cause
              > damage.
              >
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
              Best
              > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Jim
              ... ...of course only some areas of Tibet were non hunting reserves or occupied by non hunting peoples. The excellent book by Tibetan Skylines by Robert E.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 15, 2008
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                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, ingrid glass <ingrid_glass@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > An alternative view :
                > http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html Unfortunately
                > the petition has now closed.
                > >
                > > Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the
                > introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal
                > (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer
                > deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here
                > BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds
                > unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a greater
                > problem than the damage greys do. There are many disputable 'facts' in
                > the articles you have posted - see my link above.
                > >
                > > Whilst I'm not denying greys can be a problem, it has led to them
                > being scapegoated in a big way. I'm not sure why you've suddenly
                > decided to post these articles and whether this is the right forum to
                > discuss these issues. Yes, in the case of a threat to nut trees, but
                > your articles are a one-sided 'grey squirrel to blame for everything'
                > piece of scaremongering. Alas in this country if you are grey & common
                > you are very unpopular - feral pigeons are also blamed for all sorts.
                > No-one wants to feed them, only pretty little birds.
                > >
                > > Ingrid
                > >
                > > _________________________________________________________________
                > >
                > > All new Live Search at Live.com
                > >
                > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000006ukm/direct/01/
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                > Well in terms of producing fruit and nut tree crop (rather than off
                > topic 'animal rights' issues) the fact of the matter is that grey
                > squirrels are a very serious problem. Sure, when I first got the land
                > I wanted a totally non violent Tibet style reserve; but I've learnt
                > the hard way, and so as a nut farmer, I will be letting out the
                > hunting rights for the grey squirrel. The meat will be eaten.
                >
                > Sorry!
                >


                ...of course only some areas of Tibet were non hunting reserves or
                occupied by non hunting peoples. The excellent book by Tibetan
                Skylines by Robert E. Ekvall is very informative and a great read.
              • Deb
                I think it may depend on the dietary requirements of the grey squirrel, and where exactly in Australia it was introduced. A nice urban landscape or botanic
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 16, 2008
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                  I think it may depend on the dietary requirements of the grey squirrel, and where exactly in Australia it was introduced.
                  A nice urban landscape or botanic garden/cornucopia of introduced northern hemisphere trees, or a fruit/nut orchard would suit, but otherwise, if it had to fend for itself in the Australian bush.......I imagine that would be difficult.
                  We have a completely different regime of plants in Australia, if you discount imported species from Europe.
                  If they can get by on Acacia seeds (legumes) they might be in business.

                  Then theres the issue of competitors..we have a few species of possums.
                  (Some of) our possums are pretty tough, and can eat gumnuts (eucalyptus seeds)...but I am sure that this wouldnt be to every critters tastes!

                  Europe may offer similar food types to North America.

                  Cheers
                  Deb
                  Adelaide
                  South Australia.



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jim
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:26 PM
                  Subject: [pfaf] Re: The American Grey Squirrel in Europe


                  I didn't know they had been introduced there- or that they failed to
                  take hold. Many other European species have of course, rabbits, dogs,
                  white people and the like.

                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                  >
                  > why did they fail in Australia? is there some natural predator there
                  > that might work against them in Europe?
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 6/14/2008 8:35:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                  > cromlech108@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ... Grey squirrels were also introduced to
                  > Australia where they failed and to South Africa where they persist
                  and cause
                  > damage.
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
                  Best
                  > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • manofpeace32
                  I always thought greys were from Europe Thanks for clearing that up. By the way do Red ones serious affect The USA. MAybe some traps with grey female hormones
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 5, 2008
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                    I always thought greys were from Europe
                    Thanks for clearing that up.
                    By the way do Red ones serious affect The USA.

                    MAybe some traps with grey female hormones are used to catch them.
                    If not maybe that would be good to us many of those kind of traps
                    I heard they taste good, better then the Red ones better not have them
                    go to waste.

                    I know some people might not like it,
                    but if it's reaking habit on the habitat,
                    competting for food with the natives,
                    or introducing disease's
                    then I believe it's probaly better for the enviroment.
                  • Infowolf1@aol.com
                    the fastest way to eradicate something, whether that is your intention or not, is to persuade people that it tastes good or its body parts or hide look good.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 5, 2008
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                      the fastest way to eradicate something, whether that is your
                      intention or not, is to persuade people that it tastes good
                      or its body parts or hide look good.

                      Mary Christine


                      In a message dated 7/5/2008 8:40:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      manofpeace32@... writes:




                      I always thought greys were from Europe
                      Thanks for clearing that up.
                      By the way do Red ones serious affect The USA.

                      MAybe some traps with grey female hormones are used to catch them.
                      If not maybe that would be good to us many of those kind of traps
                      I heard they taste good, better then the Red ones better not have them
                      go to waste.

                      I know some people might not like it,
                      but if it's reaking habit on the habitat,
                      competting for food with the natives,
                      or introducing disease's
                      then I believe it's probaly better for the enviroment.







                      **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
                      fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ingrid glass
                      Dear manofpeace , If you d followed the link I gave in my previous response to this issue, posted on June 14th, you wouldn t be making these statements below!
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 6, 2008
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                        Dear 'manofpeace',

                        If you'd followed the link I gave in my previous response to this issue, posted on June 14th, you wouldn't be making these statements below!

                        I quote from my post :


                        "An alternative view :

                        http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html

                        Unfortunately the petition has now closed.

                        Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a greater problem than the damage greys do. There are many disputable 'facts' in the articles you have posted - see my link above."


                        Humans wreak FAR MORE havoc (I assume you mean havoc rather than habit???!!) on habitat, but we are always quick to point the finger (and the gun) at some scapegoat or other, rather than ourselves.

                        Fair enough if you are a meat eater - better to go out & kill a few squirrels 'humanely' yourself for food, than buy from a shop and not know what conditions/life the animal 'endured' before becoming 'dead meat' for human consumption. (Oh, and conveniently let someone else do the slaughtering for you). But there are other control methods available if there really is such a problem with bark stripping etc. e.g. catching & mass contraceptive programme for the females. Surely it's best to exhaust these possibilities before resorting to killing? Except culling is relatively quick & cheap I guess....I think that's what it boils down in the end, like most things these days.

                        If you really are a 'man of peace', shouldn't you approach a problem with peaceful solutions first?

                        Anyway, as I repeat again, this is a forum for discussing plant-use matters and so I'm not sure it's the place to discuss controversial issues around squirrel control (or not!) except where it specifically relates to fruit/nut tree health.

                        Please read follow-up posts before repeating ill-founded statements as fact!!!

                        Peace to you! 8^)



                        ________________________________

                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        From: manofpeace32@...
                        Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:00:18 +0000
                        Subject: [pfaf] Re: The American Grey Squirrel in Europe
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        I know some people might not like it,
                        but if it's reaking habit on the habitat,
                        competting for food with the natives,
                        or introducing disease's
                        then I believe it's probaly better for the enviroment.





                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Play and win great prizes with Live Search and Kung Fu Panda
                        http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719966/direct/01/
                      • ingrid glass
                        Dear manofpeace , If you d followed the link I gave in my previous response to this issue, posted on June 14th, you wouldn t be making these statements below!
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 6, 2008
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                          Dear 'manofpeace',

                          If you'd followed the link I gave in my previous response to this issue, posted on June 14th, you wouldn't be making these statements below!

                          I quote from my post :


                          "An alternative view :

                          http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html

                          Unfortunately the petition has now closed.

                          Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a greater problem than the damage greys do. There are many disputable 'facts' in the articles you have posted - see my link above."


                          Humans wreak FAR MORE havoc (I assume you mean havoc rather than habit???!!) on habitat, but we are always quick to point the finger (and the gun) at some scapegoat or other, rather than ourselves.

                          Fair enough if you are a meat eater - better to go out & kill a few squirrels 'humanely' yourself for food, than buy from a shop and not know what conditions/life the animal 'endured' before becoming 'dead meat' for human consumption. (Oh, and conveniently let someone else do the slaughtering for you). But there are other control methods available if there really is such a problem with bark stripping etc. e.g. catching & mass contraceptive programme for the females. Surely it's best to exhaust these possibilities before resorting to killing? Except culling is relatively quick & cheap I guess....I think that's what it boils down in the end, like most things these days.

                          If you really are a 'man of peace', shouldn't you approach a problem with peaceful solutions first?

                          Anyway, as I repeat again, this is a forum for discussing plant-use matters and so I'm not sure it's the place to discuss controversial issues around squirrel control (or not!) except where it specifically relates to fruit/nut tree health.

                          Please read follow-up posts before repeating ill-founded statements as fact!!!

                          Peace to you! 8^)



                          ________________________________

                          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          From: manofpeace32@...
                          Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:00:18 +0000
                          Subject: [pfaf] Re: The American Grey Squirrel in Europe
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          I know some people might not like it,
                          but if it's reaking habit on the habitat,
                          competting for food with the natives,
                          or introducing disease's
                          then I believe it's probaly better for the enviroment.





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                        • Jim
                          ...go on and totally ignore the nut growers and foresters grey squirrel urls then wont you, animal rights loony. You have your agenda Ingrid, and you re gonna
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 10, 2008
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                            ...go on and totally ignore the nut growers and foresters grey
                            squirrel urls then wont you, animal rights loony.


                            You have your agenda Ingrid, and you're gonna stick to it regardless
                            of any actual facts and imperical evidence put in front of you -
                            you're a fundimentalist!

                            I.e end of any real debate, time to wheel out the standard AR
                            references, and keep hammering them home untill you browbeat any
                            opposition into submission.

                            I started talking to a woman who looked mad or homeless in Paddock
                            Wood, Kent. She told me to warn people that there are people going
                            around at the dead of night capturing cats for use in 'testing'. I
                            pointed out to her that this was possible, but unlikely because
                            vivisectors require a standardised product - a uniform and disease
                            free product, and cats picked up off the street will not fit this
                            requirement. The AR fundimentalist responded with: "I HATE people tht
                            kill animals". End of debate. She must obviously therefore, be
                            correct. (about cat-napping). She had a trolley thing with a furry
                            object inside - either a live or stuffed cat I think.

                            No man, thats wrong, 'dids' have been going round stealing cats for
                            testing maaaaannnnn, and also stealing babies for use in masonic
                            ritual abuse 'alchemy'.



                            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, ingrid glass <ingrid_glass@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear 'manofpeace',
                            >
                            > If you'd followed the link I gave in my previous response to this
                            issue, posted on June 14th, you wouldn't be making these statements
                            below!
                            >
                            > I quote from my post :
                            >
                            >
                            > "An alternative view :
                            >
                            > http://www.junction49.co.uk/chapel/article1469.html
                            >
                            > Unfortunately the petition has now closed.
                            >
                            > Red squirrels had been in serious decline well before the
                            introduction of greys to the UK, mainly because of habitat removal
                            (coniferous forest) and red squirrel culls - note that greys prefer
                            deciduous broad-leaved woodland. Also, the squirrelpox virus was here
                            BEFORE the greys were!!! They do not kill large no.s of baby birds
                            unless there is a food shortage. Deer stripping tree bark is a
                            greater problem than the damage greys do. There are many
                            disputable 'facts' in the articles you have posted - see my link
                            above."
                            >
                            >
                            > Humans wreak FAR MORE havoc (I assume you mean havoc rather than
                            habit???!!) on habitat, but we are always quick to point the finger
                            (and the gun) at some scapegoat or other, rather than ourselves.
                            >
                            > Fair enough if you are a meat eater - better to go out & kill a
                            few squirrels 'humanely' yourself for food, than buy from a shop and
                            not know what conditions/life the animal 'endured' before
                            becoming 'dead meat' for human consumption. (Oh, and conveniently let
                            someone else do the slaughtering for you). But there are other
                            control methods available if there really is such a problem with bark
                            stripping etc. e.g. catching & mass contraceptive programme for the
                            females. Surely it's best to exhaust these possibilities before
                            resorting to killing? Except culling is relatively quick & cheap I
                            guess....I think that's what it boils down in the end, like most
                            things these days.
                            >
                            > If you really are a 'man of peace', shouldn't you approach a
                            problem with peaceful solutions first?
                            >
                            > Anyway, as I repeat again, this is a forum for discussing plant-
                            use matters and so I'm not sure it's the place to discuss
                            controversial issues around squirrel control (or not!) except where
                            it specifically relates to fruit/nut tree health.
                            >
                            > Please read follow-up posts before repeating ill-founded
                            statements as fact!!!
                            >
                            > Peace to you! 8^)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: manofpeace32@...
                            > Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:00:18 +0000
                            > Subject: [pfaf] Re: The American Grey Squirrel in Europe
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > I know some people might not like it,
                            > but if it's reaking habit on the habitat,
                            > competting for food with the natives,
                            > or introducing disease's
                            > then I believe it's probaly better for the enviroment.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Play and win great prizes with Live Search and Kung Fu Panda
                            > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719966/direct/01/
                            >
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