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Re: [pfaf] anyone into permaculture?

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  • Rick van Rein
    Hi, ... I think most of us are wildly interested in Permaculture. Look into the book offerings from Chelsea Green and Permanent Publications. They ought to get
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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      Hi,

      > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
      > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
      > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
      > I've ever heard of it. Why?!

      I think most of us are wildly interested in Permaculture.

      Look into the book offerings from Chelsea Green and Permanent Publications.
      They ought to get you started.

      Note that Permaclture is a design approach, not so much a gardening
      approach. It layers on top of organic gardening. Also, it deals with
      other topics such as solar energy, transport and much more. I for
      example am working on computing in an energy-efficient manner, which
      also seems to fit the loose objectives of Permaculture.


      Cheers,

      Rick van Rein

      GroenGemak
      http://groengemak.nl/
    • Geir Flatabø
      Because we are so few, there is too little money into it and therefore no marketing, you have to dig and look for it to find it... Welcome Geir Flatabø Norway
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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        Because we are so few,
        there is too little money into it
        and therefore no marketing,
        you have to dig and look for it to find it...

        Welcome

        Geir Flatabø
        Norway

        2008/6/2 nerdnooky <nerdnooky@...>:

        > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
        > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
        > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
        > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • msfenriss@gmail.com
        There are many resources out there on the subject, actually. It just hasn t taken off with mainstream gardeners. I d like to recommend Gaia s Garden: A Guide
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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          There are many resources out there on the subject, actually. It just
          hasn't taken off with mainstream gardeners. I'd like to recommend
          Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture
          http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-Guide-Home-Scale-Permaculture/dp/1890132527/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212404277&sr=8-1

          I am finding it to be incredibly helpful!

          -Rachel

          On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 6:16 PM, nerdnooky <nerdnooky@...> wrote:
          > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
          > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
          > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
          > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • sustain_ability@123mail.org
          It s there. I will try to post a few sites, later. Where are you located, nerdnooky? George http://transitions.stumbleupon.com On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:47:06
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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            It's there. I will try to post a few sites, later. Where are you
            located, nerdnooky?
            George
            http://transitions.stumbleupon.com

            On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:47:06 +0200, "Geir Flatabø" <geirf@...>
            said:
            > Because we are so few,
            > there is too little money into it
            > and therefore no marketing,
            > you have to dig and look for it to find it...
            >
            > Welcome
            >
            > Geir Flatabø
            > Norway
            >
            > 2008/6/2 nerdnooky <nerdnooky@...>:
            >
            > > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
            > > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
            > > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
            > > I've ever heard of it. Why?!

            --
            http://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different…
          • Diane Lee Long
            Dear Geir, I think that there are many of us into it it, but afraid to talk about it much. Here in the USA they have many laws that prohibit a lot of the
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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              Dear Geir,

              I think that there are many of us into it it, but afraid to talk about it much. Here in the USA they have many laws that prohibit a lot of the procedures.

              i will give you just one example. I went to get a permit to put in a cistern. That was the wrong thing to do. They wanted me to dig up the whole septic system and tile field to inspect it, and if they found anything wrong, they would condemn the house and I would have to live some other place until it was corrected by a licensed contractor.

              Then the well would have to be inspected and look for any problems. Then since I was doing improvements on the house, I would have to change out the culvert in the drive way, which needed a permit and a licensed contractor.

              Then if they felt that I was really in need of one, they might permit it, if a licensed contractor came in and did it. When I explained that I was not going to use it for drinking, and just aquaticponic, then I would have to pay for another permit.

              Then they quoted International Law to me and reminded me that the USA is not a third world country. So to put in just a cistern, it was going to cost me well over $6,000.

              There are many out there that do believe and are doing it. They just keep their moth closed for this reason.

              Diane


              Geir Flatabø <geirf@...> wrote:
              Because we are so few,
              there is too little money into it
              and therefore no marketing,
              you have to dig and look for it to find it...

              Welcome

              Geir Flatabø
              Norway

              2008/6/2 nerdnooky <nerdnooky@...>:

              > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
              > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
              > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
              > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Infowolf1@aol.com
              It seems to me that you don t need to do it one hundred per cent by the book you can still get a lot done. On the watering, if you are concerned about purity
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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                It seems to me that you don't need to do it one hundred per cent
                by the book you can still get a lot done.

                On the watering, if you are concerned about purity of water
                not all groundwater is uncontaminated. But a drip system, fed
                by an aboveground tank (keep it out of the sun so the water
                isn't hot when it gets to the plants) in which you put water that
                is exactly what you want incl. a dab of "soil soup" if you want,
                and pick stuff without chlorine or fluoride, incl. the "Just Water"
                and other filtered water stores, that sell water that has been
                run through a three stage filter which takes out fluoride as well
                as everything else, could accomplish the same thing as your
                cistern without the licensing problems.


                In a message dated 6/2/2008 4:51:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                firstwhitelight@... writes:




                Dear Geir,

                I think that there are many of us into it it, but afraid to talk about it
                much. Here in the USA they have many laws that prohibit a lot of the procedures.

                i will give you just one example. I went to get a permit to put in a
                cistern. That was the wrong thing to do. They wanted me to dig up the whole septic
                system and tile field to inspect it, and if they found anything wrong, they
                would condemn the house and I would have to live some other place until it was
                corrected by a licensed contractor.

                Then the well would have to be inspected and look for any problems. Then
                since I was doing improvements on the house, I would have to change out the
                culvert in the drive way, which needed a permit and a licensed contractor.

                Then if they felt that I was really in need of one, they might permit it, if
                a licensed contractor came in and did it. When I explained that I was not
                going to use it for drinking, and just aquaticponic, then I would have to pay
                for another permit.

                Then they quoted International Law to me and reminded me that the USA is not
                a third world country. So to put in just a cistern, it was going to cost me
                well over $6,000.

                There are many out there that do believe and are doing it. They just keep
                their moth closed for this reason.

                Diane


                Geir Flatabø <_geirf@..._ (mailto:geirf@...) > wrote:
                Because we are so few,
                there is too little money into it
                and therefore no marketing,
                you have to dig and look for it to find it...

                Welcome

                Geir Flatabø
                Norway

                2008/6/2 nerdnooky <_nerdnooky@..._ (mailto:nerdnooky@...) >:

                > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
                > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
                > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
                > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
                >
                >
                > ------------ ---- ---- -
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vic_doyle
                I was pondering this last night! The ideal sitch is a dry twin wheelie bin drop system, which can be built and hidden near trees etc. Keep it hidden, tell them
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  I was pondering this last night!
                  The ideal sitch is a dry twin wheelie bin drop system, which can be
                  built and hidden near trees etc. Keep it hidden, tell them that you
                  use a chemical toilet. You obviously need to harvest rainwater from
                  rooftops etc, keep at it, don't ask permission to live a natural
                  life!!!

                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                  >
                  > It seems to me that you don't need to do it one hundred per cent
                  > by the book you can still get a lot done.
                  >
                  > On the watering, if you are concerned about purity of water
                  > not all groundwater is uncontaminated. But a drip system, fed
                  > by an aboveground tank (keep it out of the sun so the water
                  > isn't hot when it gets to the plants) in which you put water that
                  > is exactly what you want incl. a dab of "soil soup" if you want,
                  > and pick stuff without chlorine or fluoride, incl. the "Just Water"
                  > and other filtered water stores, that sell water that has been
                  > run through a three stage filter which takes out fluoride as well
                  > as everything else, could accomplish the same thing as your
                  > cistern without the licensing problems.
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 6/2/2008 4:51:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                  > firstwhitelight@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Geir,
                  >
                  > I think that there are many of us into it it, but afraid to talk
                  about it
                  > much. Here in the USA they have many laws that prohibit a lot of
                  the procedures.
                  >
                  > i will give you just one example. I went to get a permit to put in
                  a
                  > cistern. That was the wrong thing to do. They wanted me to dig up
                  the whole septic
                  > system and tile field to inspect it, and if they found anything
                  wrong, they
                  > would condemn the house and I would have to live some other place
                  until it was
                  > corrected by a licensed contractor.
                  >
                  > Then the well would have to be inspected and look for any
                  problems. Then
                  > since I was doing improvements on the house, I would have to
                  change out the
                  > culvert in the drive way, which needed a permit and a licensed
                  contractor.
                  >
                  > Then if they felt that I was really in need of one, they might
                  permit it, if
                  > a licensed contractor came in and did it. When I explained that I
                  was not
                  > going to use it for drinking, and just aquaticponic, then I would
                  have to pay
                  > for another permit.
                  >
                  > Then they quoted International Law to me and reminded me that the
                  USA is not
                  > a third world country. So to put in just a cistern, it was going
                  to cost me
                  > well over $6,000.
                  >
                  > There are many out there that do believe and are doing it. They
                  just keep
                  > their moth closed for this reason.
                  >
                  > Diane
                  >
                  >
                  > Geir Flatabø <_geirf@..._ (mailto:geirf@...) > wrote:
                  > Because we are so few,
                  > there is too little money into it
                  > and therefore no marketing,
                  > you have to dig and look for it to find it...
                  >
                  > Welcome
                  >
                  > Geir Flatabø
                  > Norway
                  >
                  > 2008/6/2 nerdnooky <_nerdnooky@..._ (mailto:nerdnooky@...) >:
                  >
                  > > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get
                  some
                  > > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
                  > > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first
                  time
                  > > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ ---- ---- -
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking
                  with
                  > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                  > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?
                  NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                  Or instead of something that is permanent and situated, just put big plastic containers under the downspouts, and call it liquid compost add some compost to it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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                    Or instead of something that is permanent and situated, just
                    put big plastic containers under the downspouts, and call it
                    liquid compost add some compost to it to make it look
                    believable, and semi true. Claim you mix your own plant food
                    ready to pour for watering. Just don't mention where the
                    water comes from.


                    In a message dated 6/2/2008 9:28:57 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    vic_doyle@... writes:




                    I was pondering this last night!
                    The ideal sitch is a dry twin wheelie bin drop system, which can be
                    built and hidden near trees etc. Keep it hidden, tell them that you
                    use a chemical toilet. You obviously need to harvest rainwater from
                    rooftops etc, keep at it, don't ask permission to live a natural
                    life!!!

                    --- In _pfaf@..._ (mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com) , Infowolf1@..,
                    In
                    >
                    > It seems to me that you don't need to do it one hundred per cent
                    > by the book you can still get a lot done.
                    >
                    > On the watering, if you are concerned about purity of water
                    > not all groundwater is uncontaminated. But a drip system, fed
                    > by an aboveground tank (keep it out of the sun so the water
                    > isn't hot when it gets to the plants) in which you put water that
                    > is exactly what you want incl. a dab of "soil soup" if you want,
                    > and pick stuff without chlorine or fluoride, incl. the "Just Water"
                    > and other filtered water stores, that sell water that has been
                    > run through a three stage filter which takes out fluoride as well
                    > as everything else, could accomplish the same thing as your
                    > cistern without the licensing problems.
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 6/2/2008 4:51:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    > firstwhitelight@ firstw
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Geir,
                    >
                    > I think that there are many of us into it it, but afraid to talk
                    about it
                    > much. Here in the USA they have many laws that prohibit a lot of
                    the procedures.
                    >
                    > i will give you just one example. I went to get a permit to put in
                    a
                    > cistern. That was the wrong thing to do. They wanted me to dig up
                    the whole septic
                    > system and tile field to inspect it, and if they found anything
                    wrong, they
                    > would condemn the house and I would have to live some other place
                    until it was
                    > corrected by a licensed contractor.
                    >
                    > Then the well would have to be inspected and look for any
                    problems. Then
                    > since I was doing improvements on the house, I would have to
                    change out the
                    > culvert in the drive way, which needed a permit and a licensed
                    contractor.
                    >
                    > Then if they felt that I was really in need of one, they might
                    permit it, if
                    > a licensed contractor came in and did it. When I explained that I
                    was not
                    > going to use it for drinking, and just aquaticponic, then I would
                    have to pay
                    > for another permit.
                    >
                    > Then they quoted International Law to me and reminded me that the
                    USA is not
                    > a third world country. So to put in just a cistern, it was going
                    to cost me
                    > well over $6,000.
                    >
                    > There are many out there that do believe and are doing it. They
                    just keep
                    > their moth closed for this reason.
                    >
                    > Diane
                    >
                    >
                    > Geir Flatabø <_geirf@..._ (mailto:geirf@_geir> wrote:
                    > Because we are so few,
                    > there is too little money into it
                    > and therefore no marketing,
                    > you have to dig and look for it to find it...
                    >
                    > Welcome
                    >
                    > Geir Flatabø
                    > Norway
                    >
                    > 2008/6/2 nerdnooky <_nerdnooky@_nerdnooky@<WBR>..._ (m_nerdnook>:
                    >
                    > > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get
                    some
                    > > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
                    > > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first
                    time
                    > > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ ---- ---- -
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ************ ************<WBR>**Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. W
                    with
                    > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                    > (_http://food.http://food.<Whttp://fohttp://&?_
                    (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?)
                    NCID=aolfod00030000NCID=ao
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >







                    **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                    Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                    (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hilary Robinson
                    Of course, Permaculture (and gardening) may also be of interest to those not practising Christianity - or any other religion. Regards, Hilary (Cheshire, UK)
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 2, 2008
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                      Of course, Permaculture (and gardening) may also be of interest to those not practising Christianity - or any other religion.
                      Regards, Hilary (Cheshire, UK)



                      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: sustain_ability@...
                      > Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 07:27:15 -0400
                      > Subject: [pfaf] Re: anyone into permaculture?
                      >
                      >
                      > It's there. I will try to post a few sites, later. Where are you
                      > located, nerdnooky?
                      > George
                      > http://transitions.stumbleupon.com
                      >
                      > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:47:06 +0200, "Geir Flatabø" <geirf@...>
                      > said:
                      > > Because we are so few,
                      > > there is too little money into it
                      > > and therefore no marketing,
                      > > you have to dig and look for it to find it...
                      > >
                      > > Welcome
                      > >
                      > > Geir Flatabø
                      > > Norway
                      > >
                      > > 2008/6/2 nerdnooky <nerdnooky@...>:
                      > >
                      > > > Having just found out about permaculture, I would love to get some
                      > > > advice on becoming more involved with this exciting grass roots
                      > > > movement. After gardening for about 45 years, this is the first time
                      > > > I've ever heard of it. Why?!
                      >
                      > --
                      > http://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different�
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • nerdnooky
                      Hi, I m in the Northeast of USA. what I didn t know, was that this IS a permaculture site! Duh.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 5, 2008
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                        Hi, I'm in the Northeast of USA. what I didn't know, was that this IS
                        a permaculture site! Duh.
                      • nerdnooky
                        Yes, I read Gaia s Garden.... from cover to cover in two days, then went back and re-read slowly, taking detailed notes. Then picked up Robert Hart s book,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 5, 2008
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                          Yes, I read Gaia's Garden.... from cover to cover in two days, then
                          went back and re-read slowly, taking detailed notes. Then picked up
                          Robert Hart's book, Forest Gardening, then Edible Forest Gardens Vol.
                          1, and am now waiting on Earth Users Guide To Permaculture to do the
                          same thing! Reading these books (wherever I go) has started some
                          extremely interesting conversations, all positive! Most gardening
                          folks have never heard of it, too. WHY? It makes perfect sense:
                          like I described to one person it's akin falling in love at first
                          sight, it's that powerful.

                          You know what it needs to jumpstart a really big movement toward it?
                          It's own reality TV show.... LOL, but only half kidding. It really
                          does need more media attention--seems that's the only way people
                          become informed in this country. Has Organic Gardening had any
                          recent articles on this? I don't get it any longer now that its
                          become so commercialized and boringly redundant. Mother Earth News?
                          Any other gardening magazines or e-zines?

                          Does anyone know of any permaculture sites around New England that
                          one might visit? I can't really get away for two weeks+ to take the
                          courses, but would love to see it in action beforehand. Also, any
                          interesting websites to visit would be appreciated.
                        • Sean
                          Check out http://gardengirltv.com/ .... Volume two of Edible Forest Gardens would come pretty high on the list of recommended reading/reference. Of course,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 6, 2008
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                            Check out http://gardengirltv.com/ ....

                            Volume two of Edible Forest Gardens would come pretty high on the list
                            of recommended reading/reference. Of course, the Designer's Manual is
                            important, too.

                            There are several sites around the Northeast, many just emerging. The
                            last few years has seen an explosion in Permaculture interest.
                            Specific sites are listed on the following wiki:

                            http://northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com

                            If you can't get away for the two week intensive PDC, there are
                            several alternatives. Weekend series have become increasingly popular
                            and there is a controversial 9-day format (possibly too intense to
                            cover all material and still have an effective design project
                            exercise) being offered on Martha's Vinyard and in SW NH (offered by
                            http://www.permie.us, a TX group).


                            -Sean.

                            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "nerdnooky" <nerdnooky@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, I read Gaia's Garden.... from cover to cover in two days, then
                            > went back and re-read slowly, taking detailed notes. Then picked up
                            > Robert Hart's book, Forest Gardening, then Edible Forest Gardens Vol.
                            > 1, and am now waiting on Earth Users Guide To Permaculture to do the
                            > same thing! Reading these books (wherever I go) has started some
                            > extremely interesting conversations, all positive! Most gardening
                            > folks have never heard of it, too. WHY? It makes perfect sense:
                            > like I described to one person it's akin falling in love at first
                            > sight, it's that powerful.
                            >
                            > You know what it needs to jumpstart a really big movement toward it?
                            > It's own reality TV show.... LOL, but only half kidding. It really
                            > does need more media attention--seems that's the only way people
                            > become informed in this country. Has Organic Gardening had any
                            > recent articles on this? I don't get it any longer now that its
                            > become so commercialized and boringly redundant. Mother Earth News?
                            > Any other gardening magazines or e-zines?
                            >
                            > Does anyone know of any permaculture sites around New England that
                            > one might visit? I can't really get away for two weeks+ to take the
                            > courses, but would love to see it in action beforehand. Also, any
                            > interesting websites to visit would be appreciated.
                            >
                          • Martin Naylor
                            I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political party in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check the links below martin
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 6, 2008
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                              I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political party in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check the links below
                              martin


                              http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/20080422/863f4a17/attachment.pdf

                              http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/political_parties_reg_handbook_2005_app05.pdf

                              http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html




                              ---------------------------------




                              ---------------------------------
                              Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stella
                              interesting thread the Anyone into permaculture .. I saw Ken Fern in a very old video the other night (Robert Harts Forest Garden) and went looking for
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 7, 2008
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                                interesting thread the "Anyone into permaculture" ..

                                I saw Ken Fern in a very old video the other night (Robert Harts'
                                Forest Garden) and went looking for up-to-date info on him and was
                                delighted to see this group ... (anyone know what he's up to nowadays?)

                                Ken is a legend with british permaculture designers! ... so it´s
                                interesting that question should come up on a Plants for a Future list
                                :)

                                yesterday I started his profile on the "Who's Who in Permaculture" wiki
                                that we started up some time ago (still very much under construction),
                                in order to more easily get to know who permaculture designers are and
                                their work.

                                and I would love some help: anyone here know his email, his recent
                                news, and could help compiling this profile? I would really apreciate
                                it!

                                http://permacultureinstitute.pbwiki.com/Ken


                                Stella



                                El 06/06/2008, a las 23:54, Martin Naylor escribió:

                                > I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political party
                                > in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check the
                                > links below
                                > martin
                                >
                                > http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/
                                > 20080422/863f4a17/attachment.pdf
                                >
                                > http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/
                                > political_parties_reg_handbook_2005_app05.pdf
                                >
                                > http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Alastair McGowan
                                Great to see this promotion of permaculture. Just a wee comment. Isn’t one of the principles of permaculture that we should all be the Who’s Who, there are
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 14, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Great to see this promotion of permaculture.



                                  Just a wee comment. Isn’t one of the principles of permaculture that we
                                  should all be the Who’s Who, there are no experts except those who are truly
                                  living permaculturally in a similar ecology, embedded in a human-to-wild
                                  ecology closer to the hunter-gatherer than the hierarchical configuration of
                                  current concepts of civilisation – something I aspire to and like many
                                  permaculturists I would resist the idea of there being experts who can show
                                  us permaculture objectively from the outside.



                                  By developing a Who’s Who could we be continuing to propagate the concepts
                                  of expertise and authority which are anathema to true sustainability. The
                                  true permaculturist is unliekly to find a solution from an expert but more
                                  likely to gain the appropriate information from an obscure permaculturist on
                                  the other side of the earth (e.g. via PFAF). The idea that someone can be an
                                  objective expert runs counter to Bill Mollisons fundamentally
                                  non-hierarchical approach:



                                  I believe that the days of centralised power are numbered, and that a
                                  re-tribalisation of society is inevitable, if sometimes painful, process.
                                  The applied theories of politics, economics and industry have made a sick
                                  society; it is time for new approaches. We live in the post-industrial
                                  world, and have an immense amount of sophisticated information and
                                  technology which enables us to exchange information while living in a
                                  village situation.

                                  -Bill Mollison, Introduction to Permaculture Expanded on this theme
                                  <http://www.radicalchangela.org/permaculture.html> here



                                  But don’t take this as a negative criticism, it is rhetorical for
                                  discussion.



                                  Best



                                  Alastair



                                  _____

                                  From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stella
                                  Sent: 07 June 2008 09:01
                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [pfaf] Who's Who in permaculture



                                  interesting thread the "Anyone into permaculture" ..

                                  I saw Ken Fern in a very old video the other night (Robert Harts'
                                  Forest Garden) and went looking for up-to-date info on him and was
                                  delighted to see this group ... (anyone know what he's up to nowadays?)

                                  Ken is a legend with british permaculture designers! ... so it´s
                                  interesting that question should come up on a Plants for a Future list
                                  :)

                                  yesterday I started his profile on the "Who's Who in Permaculture" wiki
                                  that we started up some time ago (still very much under construction),
                                  in order to more easily get to know who permaculture designers are and
                                  their work.

                                  and I would love some help: anyone here know his email, his recent
                                  news, and could help compiling this profile? I would really apreciate
                                  it!

                                  http://permaculture <http://permacultureinstitute.pbwiki.com/Ken>
                                  institute.pbwiki.com/Ken

                                  Stella

                                  El 06/06/2008, a las 23:54, Martin Naylor escribió:

                                  > I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political party
                                  > in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check the
                                  > links below
                                  > martin
                                  >
                                  > http://jasper.
                                  <http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/>
                                  cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/
                                  > 20080422/863f4a17/attachment.pdf
                                  >
                                  > http://www.aec. <http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/>
                                  gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/
                                  > political_parties_reg_handbook_2005_app05.pdf
                                  >
                                  > http://www.scottlon <http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html>
                                  don.com/interviews/mollison.html
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG.
                                  Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1501 - Release Date: 13/06/2008
                                  06:33




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Brian
                                  ... nowadays?) ... list ... wiki ... construction), ... and ... apreciate ... party ... the ... oceania/attachments/ ... Ken Fern vid 1 + 2 can be seen over
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 14, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Stella <stella@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > interesting thread the "Anyone into permaculture" ..
                                    >
                                    > I saw Ken Fern in a very old video the other night (Robert Harts'
                                    > Forest Garden) and went looking for up-to-date info on him and was
                                    > delighted to see this group ... (anyone know what he's up to
                                    nowadays?)
                                    >
                                    > Ken is a legend with british permaculture designers! ... so it´s
                                    > interesting that question should come up on a Plants for a Future
                                    list
                                    > :)
                                    >
                                    > yesterday I started his profile on the "Who's Who in Permaculture"
                                    wiki
                                    > that we started up some time ago (still very much under
                                    construction),
                                    > in order to more easily get to know who permaculture designers are
                                    and
                                    > their work.
                                    >
                                    > and I would love some help: anyone here know his email, his recent
                                    > news, and could help compiling this profile? I would really
                                    apreciate
                                    > it!
                                    >
                                    > http://permacultureinstitute.pbwiki.com/Ken
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Stella
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > El 06/06/2008, a las 23:54, Martin Naylor escribió:
                                    >
                                    > > I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political
                                    party
                                    > > in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check
                                    the
                                    > > links below
                                    > > martin
                                    > >
                                    > > http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-
                                    oceania/attachments/
                                    > > 20080422/863f4a17/attachment.pdf
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/
                                    > > political_parties_reg_handbook_2005_app05.pdf
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    Ken Fern vid 1 + 2 can be seen over youtube.com here is link if not
                                    work do do a search

                                    http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ken+Fern&search_type=&aq=f

                                    Brian
                                  • Stella
                                    thanks for the link Brian, and thanks for your comments below Alastair ... yes, that s exactly the idea: we should all be on the who s who, and we re here
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 17, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      thanks for the link Brian, and thanks for your comments below Alastair
                                      :)

                                      yes, that's exactly the idea: we should all be on the who's who, and
                                      we're here workin on it :)

                                      a who's who is about getting people to know each other, and also
                                      identifying where to find the people passionate about the things you
                                      are - so you can make friends with them.

                                      interesting how this authority thing often comes up. I agree that a
                                      lot of damage is done by people believing 'experts' should tell them
                                      what to do or believe ... or they do nothing and believe anything.

                                      But there is also a healthy side to respecting the knowledge &
                                      experience of our elders, for egsample (so we don't go re-inventing
                                      wheels for eg.) - and interestingly, most sustainable tribal societies
                                      (that I know of) put a lot of emphasis on that, on honoring the elders,
                                      and the ancestors.

                                      There is no contradiction between these two things, except in our own
                                      western heads, so badly hurt by mis-use of authority. It would be a
                                      great thing to put an end to that confusion, so we can get on with real
                                      progress.

                                      I also agree that centralization is not where we should be heading ..
                                      yet decentralization is very non-effective and it´s why the
                                      multinationals and govts. are winning the day so far: they are a lot
                                      better organized than the vast majority of people who would like
                                      another kind of society.

                                      The chaordic model breaks through both sets of disadvantages, and has
                                      the advantages of both: a lot more effective and with tons of freedom
                                      (eg. internet is a chaordic organization, ecosystems in nature are, as
                                      well). There's more about this in
                                      http://permacultureinstitute.pbwiki.com/

                                      So we're just experimenting with building more chaordicism into the
                                      basic chaordic structure Bill Mollison set up: with some clear
                                      protocols (eg. the vision, ethics, directives, principles of
                                      permaculture), but loads of freedom of iniciative ... which needs basic
                                      and good quality information to be fully operational (like who's out
                                      there, doing what ...)

                                      Anyone is very welcome to put their profile up there, or those of
                                      people they think should be on there if they are doing permaculture -
                                      infact we need lots of help with this, let me know.

                                      kind regards

                                      Stella


                                      El 14/06/2008, a las 10:40, Alastair McGowan escribió:

                                      > Great to see this promotion of permaculture.
                                      >
                                      > Just a wee comment. Isn’t one of the principles of permaculture that
                                      > we
                                      > should all be the Who’s Who, there are no experts except those who
                                      > are truly
                                      > living permaculturally in a similar ecology, embedded in a
                                      > human-to-wild
                                      > ecology closer to the hunter-gatherer than the hierarchical
                                      > configuration of
                                      > current concepts of civilisation – something I aspire to and like many
                                      > permaculturists I would resist the idea of there being experts who
                                      > can show
                                      > us permaculture objectively from the outside.
                                      >
                                      > By developing a Who’s Who could we be continuing to propagate the
                                      > concepts
                                      > of expertise and authority which are anathema to true sustainability.
                                      > The
                                      > true permaculturist is unliekly to find a solution from an expert but
                                      > more
                                      > likely to gain the appropriate information from an obscure
                                      > permaculturist on
                                      > the other side of the earth (e.g. via PFAF). The idea that someone
                                      > can be an
                                      > objective expert runs counter to Bill Mollisons fundamentally
                                      > non-hierarchical approach:
                                      >
                                      > I believe that the days of centralised power are numbered, and that a
                                      > re-tribalisation of society is inevitable, if sometimes painful,
                                      > process.
                                      > The applied theories of politics, economics and industry have made a
                                      > sick
                                      > society; it is time for new approaches. We live in the post-industrial
                                      > world, and have an immense amount of sophisticated information and
                                      > technology which enables us to exchange information while living in a
                                      > village situation.
                                      >
                                      > -Bill Mollison, Introduction to Permaculture Expanded on this theme
                                      > <http://www.radicalchangela.org/permaculture.html> here
                                      >
                                      > But don’t take this as a negative criticism, it is rhetorical for
                                      > discussion.
                                      >
                                      > Best
                                      >
                                      > Alastair
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      > Stella
                                      > Sent: 07 June 2008 09:01
                                      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [pfaf] Who's Who in permaculture
                                      >
                                      > interesting thread the "Anyone into permaculture" ..
                                      >
                                      > I saw Ken Fern in a very old video the other night (Robert Harts'
                                      > Forest Garden) and went looking for up-to-date info on him and was
                                      > delighted to see this group ... (anyone know what he's up to
                                      > nowadays?)
                                      >
                                      > Ken is a legend with british permaculture designers! ... so it´s
                                      > interesting that question should come up on a Plants for a Future list
                                      > :)
                                      >
                                      > yesterday I started his profile on the "Who's Who in Permaculture"
                                      > wiki
                                      > that we started up some time ago (still very much under construction),
                                      > in order to more easily get to know who permaculture designers are and
                                      > their work.
                                      >
                                      > and I would love some help: anyone here know his email, his recent
                                      > news, and could help compiling this profile? I would really apreciate
                                      > it!
                                      >
                                      > http://permaculture <http://permacultureinstitute.pbwiki.com/Ken>
                                      > institute.pbwiki.com/Ken
                                      >
                                      > Stella
                                      >
                                      > El 06/06/2008, a las 23:54, Martin Naylor escribió:
                                      >
                                      > > I f you like you can also start a Permaculture Peoples Political
                                      > party
                                      > > in your country one is all ready starting in Australia, check the
                                      > > links below
                                      > > martin
                                      > >
                                      > > http://jasper.
                                      >
                                      > <http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/
                                      > >
                                      > cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/
                                      > > 20080422/863f4a17/attachment.pdf
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.aec. <http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/>
                                      > gov.au/pdf/party_reg/handbook/
                                      > > political_parties_reg_handbook_2005_app05.pdf
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.scottlon
                                      > <http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/mollison.html>
                                      > don.com/interviews/mollison.html
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > Checked by AVG.
                                      > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1501 - Release Date:
                                      > 13/06/2008
                                      > 06:33
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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