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Re: [pfaf] growing food trees in public places

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  • Rick van Rein
    Hello, I would love to see more edible trees in public green as well, and even wonder if we ll be in time getting them setup. ... And the same goes for
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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      Hello,

      I would love to see more edible trees in public green as well, and even
      wonder if we'll be in time getting them setup.

      > I can understand that if apples and pears were grown in public
      > places, things being as they are these days, no doubt they would be
      > ravaged and vandalised before too long.

      And the same goes for chestnuts over here. People who are more linked
      to nature (usually Turkish people in NL) tend to do a lot to get
      (at least) their share of the food, including picking it too early
      and climbing into the tree or hitting it to get the harvest down.

      I can see governments avoiding this overactive harvesting practice by
      avoiding edible trees; I can also see them simply being ignorant of an
      upcoming shortage of food and simply choose pretty plants. We have a
      strong tendency in the Western world to separate plants into pretty
      ones and edible ones. I'm attacking that in a local project with a
      600 m2 permaculture which integrates these two aspects, found on
      http://haarlebrink.robstuinaanleg.nl/index.php/Hoofdpagina (in Dutch,
      as this project aims to teach localsnot the World). We're now in the
      second year, and planning tours for the government. Of course we take
      our time to mention what improvements are possible in public green
      space and what purposes it serves. Given our "proof" in this project
      we tend to catch their interest.

      As we enter the era of starvation (or more likely, food on consumption
      tickets supplied by governments) chances are that this knowledge will
      revive and selfish harvesting are started. (Then again, during WW II
      the farmers had enough but I don't think people tried to grow food
      for themselves, or did they?)

      I wonder if we'll be in time before peak oil hits us and food supplies
      drop, but I'm happy about the trend for even slowly-adapting ("let's
      keep everything normal / as is and all will be fine") Netherlands
      towards organic food -- which is likely to be part of the solution.

      Are trees the ultimate solution? Not sure, they give a lot but also
      occupy a lot of space, and usually that's public space. I'd go for
      weeds as a major ingredient in our meals, to be honest. These are
      easily grown, locally adjusted crops but we'll need to get over some
      mental thresholds to get there. I just ran around the allocation
      garden plot where we hold a piece, and noticed edible weeds growing,
      and being ready to eat without being harvested. I wondered why :)

      I started a small company, named GroenGemak (it has a local Dutch focus,
      hence the name which means Easily Durable, although the website is
      bilingual at http://groengemak.nl/en/ ) in which I do things like
      offer advice to people and the local government on subject like these,
      and edible trees are high up on my agenda.

      I've heard about an initiative in Birmingham where people bought apple
      tried en masse and therefore got them at a good price. Almost everybody
      likes to have his own apple tree in their backyard (paved backyards being
      one of the things I fail to understand) and when guided as to how they
      should be pruned, people easily see the point of harvesting from a
      perennial plant such as a tree.

      > Todays children rarely seem to know or care about what grows
      > wild,

      The children in my neighbourhood showed me how to crack hazelnuts and
      eat them. I still am the only adult who collects them as an ingredient
      though.

      > and many have no idea where their common food plants come from
      > either.

      The grow on machines, don't they?

      Well actually they do in more and more casus, "thanks" to in-vitro
      technology...


      I do urge you to talk to your local government, especially in the fashion
      of "adding to their knowledge". You may actually be listened to better
      if you charge for consulting services.

      The way we got in with our local permaculture project is through a project
      to improve the neighbourhood in a social manner -- anything that could
      get people to do things together and see how profitable that is would
      have worked for them. Our project has been a great success in that respect,
      and now we have caught their attention. We'll do all we can to get the
      permaculturally best out of that :)


      Cheers,

      Rick van Rein
      GroenGemak

      http://groengemak.nl/en/
    • Michael Porter
      -some examples of good trees for public places are, --Nut trees- especially Pecan, Black walnut, Almond , and their relatives, --in warmer areas Moringa and
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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        -some examples of good trees for public places are, --Nut trees- especially Pecan, Black walnut, Almond , and their relatives,
        --in warmer areas Moringa and Chaya, would be good, --and Fragrant Spring Tree [ edible foliage] can be grown in a wide range of climates, --these would be better choices than some other fruit trees when human nature is considered, --Michael Porter

        Rick van Rein <rick@...> wrote:
        Hello,

        I would love to see more edible trees in public green as well, and even
        wonder if we'll be in time getting them setup.

        > I can understand that if apples and pears were grown in public
        > places, things being as they are these days, no doubt they would be
        > ravaged and vandalised before too long.

        And the same goes for chestnuts over here. People who are more linked
        to nature (usually Turkish people in NL) tend to do a lot to get
        (at least) their share of the food, including picking it too early
        and climbing into the tree or hitting it to get the harvest down.

        I can see governments avoiding this overactive harvesting practice by
        avoiding edible trees; I can also see them simply being ignorant of an
        upcoming shortage of food and simply choose pretty plants. We have a
        strong tendency in the Western world to separate plants into pretty
        ones and edible ones. I'm attacking that in a local project with a
        600 m2 permaculture which integrates these two aspects, found on
        http://haarlebrink.robstuinaanleg.nl/index.php/Hoofdpagina (in Dutch,
        as this project aims to teach localsnot the World). We're now in the
        second year, and planning tours for the government. Of course we take
        our time to mention what improvements are possible in public green
        space and what purposes it serves. Given our "proof" in this project
        we tend to catch their interest.

        As we enter the era of starvation (or more likely, food on consumption
        tickets supplied by governments) chances are that this knowledge will
        revive and selfish harvesting are started. (Then again, during WW II
        the farmers had enough but I don't think people tried to grow food
        for themselves, or did they?)

        I wonder if we'll be in time before peak oil hits us and food supplies
        drop, but I'm happy about the trend for even slowly-adapting ("let's
        keep everything normal / as is and all will be fine") Netherlands
        towards organic food -- which is likely to be part of the solution.

        Are trees the ultimate solution? Not sure, they give a lot but also
        occupy a lot of space, and usually that's public space. I'd go for
        weeds as a major ingredient in our meals, to be honest. These are
        easily grown, locally adjusted crops but we'll need to get over some
        mental thresholds to get there. I just ran around the allocation
        garden plot where we hold a piece, and noticed edible weeds growing,
        and being ready to eat without being harvested. I wondered why :)

        I started a small company, named GroenGemak (it has a local Dutch focus,
        hence the name which means Easily Durable, although the website is
        bilingual at http://groengemak.nl/en/ ) in which I do things like
        offer advice to people and the local government on subject like these,
        and edible trees are high up on my agenda.

        I've heard about an initiative in Birmingham where people bought apple
        tried en masse and therefore got them at a good price. Almost everybody
        likes to have his own apple tree in their backyard (paved backyards being
        one of the things I fail to understand) and when guided as to how they
        should be pruned, people easily see the point of harvesting from a
        perennial plant such as a tree.

        > Todays children rarely seem to know or care about what grows
        > wild,

        The children in my neighbourhood showed me how to crack hazelnuts and
        eat them. I still am the only adult who collects them as an ingredient
        though.

        > and many have no idea where their common food plants come from
        > either.

        The grow on machines, don't they?

        Well actually they do in more and more casus, "thanks" to in-vitro
        technology...

        I do urge you to talk to your local government, especially in the fashion
        of "adding to their knowledge". You may actually be listened to better
        if you charge for consulting services.

        The way we got in with our local permaculture project is through a project
        to improve the neighbourhood in a social manner -- anything that could
        get people to do things together and see how profitable that is would
        have worked for them. Our project has been a great success in that respect,
        and now we have caught their attention. We'll do all we can to get the
        permaculturally best out of that :)

        Cheers,

        Rick van Rein
        GroenGemak

        http://groengemak.nl/en/






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Martin Naylor
        It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open places we are the public the joys of scrumping martin Law? what do I care for the law?Hain t I
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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          It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open places we are the public

          the joys of scrumping
          martin


          Law? what do I care for the law?Hain't I got the power?
          - Commodore Vanderbilt
          I owe the public nothing.
          - J.P. Morgan



          ---------------------------------
          Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Javier Cosp
          In Paraguay we have a lot of mangoes in public places. They are eaten by poor people but most of them goes to the garbage. Javier ... From: Michael Porter To:
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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            In Paraguay we have a lot of mangoes in public places. They are
            eaten by poor people but most of them goes to the garbage.

            Javier



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Michael Porter
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:48 AM
            Subject: Re: [pfaf] growing food trees in public places


            -some examples of good trees for public places are, --Nut trees- especially Pecan, Black walnut, Almond , and their relatives,
            --in warmer areas Moringa and Chaya, would be good, --and Fragrant Spring Tree [ edible foliage] can be grown in a wide range of climates, --these would be better choices than some other fruit trees when human nature is considered, --Michael Porter

            Rick van Rein <rick@...> wrote:
            Hello,

            I would love to see more edible trees in public green as well, and even
            wonder if we'll be in time getting them setup.

            > I can understand that if apples and pears were grown in public
            > places, things being as they are these days, no doubt they would be
            > ravaged and vandalised before too long.

            And the same goes for chestnuts over here. People who are more linked
            to nature (usually Turkish people in NL) tend to do a lot to get
            (at least) their share of the food, including picking it too early
            and climbing into the tree or hitting it to get the harvest down.

            I can see governments avoiding this overactive harvesting practice by
            avoiding edible trees; I can also see them simply being ignorant of an
            upcoming shortage of food and simply choose pretty plants. We have a
            strong tendency in the Western world to separate plants into pretty
            ones and edible ones. I'm attacking that in a local project with a
            600 m2 permaculture which integrates these two aspects, found on
            http://haarlebrink.robstuinaanleg.nl/index.php/Hoofdpagina (in Dutch,
            as this project aims to teach localsnot the World). We're now in the
            second year, and planning tours for the government. Of course we take
            our time to mention what improvements are possible in public green
            space and what purposes it serves. Given our "proof" in this project
            we tend to catch their interest.

            As we enter the era of starvation (or more likely, food on consumption
            tickets supplied by governments) chances are that this knowledge will
            revive and selfish harvesting are started. (Then again, during WW II
            the farmers had enough but I don't think people tried to grow food
            for themselves, or did they?)

            I wonder if we'll be in time before peak oil hits us and food supplies
            drop, but I'm happy about the trend for even slowly-adapting ("let's
            keep everything normal / as is and all will be fine") Netherlands
            towards organic food -- which is likely to be part of the solution.

            Are trees the ultimate solution? Not sure, they give a lot but also
            occupy a lot of space, and usually that's public space. I'd go for
            weeds as a major ingredient in our meals, to be honest. These are
            easily grown, locally adjusted crops but we'll need to get over some
            mental thresholds to get there. I just ran around the allocation
            garden plot where we hold a piece, and noticed edible weeds growing,
            and being ready to eat without being harvested. I wondered why :)

            I started a small company, named GroenGemak (it has a local Dutch focus,
            hence the name which means Easily Durable, although the website is
            bilingual at http://groengemak.nl/en/ ) in which I do things like
            offer advice to people and the local government on subject like these,
            and edible trees are high up on my agenda.

            I've heard about an initiative in Birmingham where people bought apple
            tried en masse and therefore got them at a good price. Almost everybody
            likes to have his own apple tree in their backyard (paved backyards being
            one of the things I fail to understand) and when guided as to how they
            should be pruned, people easily see the point of harvesting from a
            perennial plant such as a tree.

            > Todays children rarely seem to know or care about what grows
            > wild,

            The children in my neighbourhood showed me how to crack hazelnuts and
            eat them. I still am the only adult who collects them as an ingredient
            though.

            > and many have no idea where their common food plants come from
            > either.

            The grow on machines, don't they?

            Well actually they do in more and more casus, "thanks" to in-vitro
            technology...

            I do urge you to talk to your local government, especially in the fashion
            of "adding to their knowledge". You may actually be listened to better
            if you charge for consulting services.

            The way we got in with our local permaculture project is through a project
            to improve the neighbourhood in a social manner -- anything that could
            get people to do things together and see how profitable that is would
            have worked for them. Our project has been a great success in that respect,
            and now we have caught their attention. We'll do all we can to get the
            permaculturally best out of that :)

            Cheers,

            Rick van Rein
            GroenGemak

            http://groengemak.nl/en/

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Traveler in Thyme
            During my terms as Arbor Day chairman for the Garden Club, and also working with professional landscapers, I ve been told over and over that nobody wants fruit
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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              During my terms as Arbor Day chairman for the Garden Club, and also working
              with professional landscapers, I've been told over and over that nobody
              wants fruit or nut trees in parks or along streets because of the Mess.
              Foolish humans. If you pick all the fruit, there is no mess! But the
              persist in planting "flowering pears" and "flowering plums" that bear no
              fruits, and disallowing vegetables in front lawns.

              Also, I've read that plants within 25 feet of a busy street, or 75 feet from
              a highway, are often contaminated with large amounts of lead and other
              exhaust fumes. What used to be the runoff gullies for creeks, where the
              good soil accumulates, are now mostly drainage ditches and covered culverts,
              and even if tasty weeds grow there, they are not safe to eat.

              I lived on pecans picked up along the streets when I was a college student
              in Austin.......it always amazes me how many go to waste when they are
              within easy reach. You must respect the rights of the owners, but they
              often do not care, or they would obviously have harvested the crops
              themselves. ????

              Marcia Cash
              ~Traveler in Thyme~


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ariel023
              Hi all Olives and figs are common here in public places along roads you may even find the prickly pear and lots of date palm and Carob tThe male mullberry,
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 7, 2008
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                Hi all

                Olives and figs are common here in public places
                along roads you may even find the prickly pear and lots of
                date palm and Carob


                tThe male mullberry, pecans along roads are rather newly
                planted

                Various citrus rootstocks, passionfruits and grapes are also
                common but in specific cities

                No mango is planted here on a road side or public
              • Michael Porter
                The Olive and Fig sound like good ideas for useful public trees, --Michael ariel023 wrote: Hi all Olives and figs are common
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 8, 2008
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                  The Olive and Fig sound like good ideas for useful "public" trees, --Michael

                  ariel023 <ariel023@...> wrote: Hi all

                  Olives and figs are common here in public places
                  along roads you may even find the prickly pear and lots of
                  date palm and Carob

                  tThe male mullberry, pecans along roads are rather newly
                  planted

                  Various citrus rootstocks, passionfruits and grapes are also
                  common but in specific cities

                  No mango is planted here on a road side or public





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                  excuse me? The public consists of everybody as a whole not of errant individuals. And The Public via its elected representatives has made laws you d best check
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 8, 2008
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                    excuse me? The public consists of everybody as a whole not of
                    errant individuals. And The Public via its elected representatives
                    has made laws you'd best check on.

                    Or you risk destruction of illegal plantings which is a waste of your
                    time and efforts and of the plants themselves, and maybe a fine.

                    Check with your local jurisdiction about this stuff. If you have to
                    go before a city planning commission or something do so.

                    Mary Christine Erikson


                    In a message dated 4/7/2008 3:12:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    martinwnaylor@... writes:

                    It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open places we are
                    the public





                    **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                    (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • vic_doyle
                    Elected Representatives make up all sorts of crap laws and policies which have led to immense Oil Wars dressed as Human Rights and young people living in
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 8, 2008
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                      Elected Representatives make up all sorts of crap laws and policies
                      which have led to immense Oil Wars dressed as "Human Rights" and
                      young people living in places were there are no facilities unless you
                      own a car. In fact the "1984" style "dumbing down and law making" is
                      leading to lives where you're banned from smoking a cigarette but
                      have no redress to living in towns and cities choked by petrol and
                      diesel fumes and vehicle smog & noise.

                      If the lawmakers designed a racehorse it would look like Camel,
                      that's why they don't plant fruit trees in public places.

                      Bring on the Free Food Tree Planters and leave the Nimby Gas guzzling
                      Fascists in their plastic/asbestos/MDF offices to ROT I say.

                      On a lighter note:

                      By the way, I plant redcurrant bushes all over the place, they are
                      easy to transplant and are a beautiful and useful plant which
                      introduces to children that food doesn't just come from Wallmart
                      (next to the Gun Counter!).


                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                      >
                      > excuse me? The public consists of everybody as a whole not of
                      > errant individuals. And The Public via its elected representatives
                      > has made laws you'd best check on.
                      >
                      > Or you risk destruction of illegal plantings which is a waste of
                      your
                      > time and efforts and of the plants themselves, and maybe a fine.
                      >
                      > Check with your local jurisdiction about this stuff. If you have to
                      > go before a city planning commission or something do so.
                      >
                      > Mary Christine Erikson
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 4/7/2008 3:12:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      > martinwnaylor@... writes:
                      >
                      > It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open
                      places we are
                      > the public
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel
                      Guides.
                      > (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?
                      ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • vic_doyle
                      Exactly! If the fumes are poisining the plants, what are the fumes doing to us? Ban the car not fruit! ... working ... nobody ... Mess. ... But the ... bear no
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 8, 2008
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                        Exactly! If the fumes are poisining the plants, what are the fumes
                        doing to us? Ban the car not fruit!


                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Traveler in Thyme" <marcia@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > During my terms as Arbor Day chairman for the Garden Club, and also
                        working
                        > with professional landscapers, I've been told over and over that
                        nobody
                        > wants fruit or nut trees in parks or along streets because of the
                        Mess.
                        > Foolish humans. If you pick all the fruit, there is no mess!
                        But the
                        > persist in planting "flowering pears" and "flowering plums" that
                        bear no
                        > fruits, and disallowing vegetables in front lawns.
                        >
                        > Also, I've read that plants within 25 feet of a busy street, or 75
                        feet from
                        > a highway, are often contaminated with large amounts of lead and
                        other
                        > exhaust fumes. What used to be the runoff gullies for creeks,
                        where the
                        > good soil accumulates, are now mostly drainage ditches and covered
                        culverts,
                        > and even if tasty weeds grow there, they are not safe to eat.
                        >
                        > I lived on pecans picked up along the streets when I was a college
                        student
                        > in Austin.......it always amazes me how many go to waste when they
                        are
                        > within easy reach. You must respect the rights of the owners, but
                        they
                        > often do not care, or they would obviously have harvested the crops
                        > themselves. ????
                        >
                        > Marcia Cash
                        > ~Traveler in Thyme~
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Marc Bailey
                        Its often not practical to start with government to begin making these changes. Instead of listening to their constituents many politicians are forced to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 8, 2008
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                          Its often not practical to start with government to begin making these changes. Instead of listening to their constituents many politicians are forced to follow the money in order to have the funds to buy the airtime to get reelected. In southern california developers have managed to take control of local government officials and has lead to out of control developments that often isn't in the interest of anyone but the developer's pocket.

                          The following video covers this concept very well and ways that a city was able to positively transform public space:
                          http://youtube.com/watch?v=qVq0exoGySc&feature=related

                          Cheers,
                          -Marc

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
                          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:48:33 AM
                          Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: growing food trees in public places

                          excuse me? The public consists of everybody as a whole not of
                          errant individuals. And The Public via its elected representatives
                          has made laws you'd best check on.

                          Or you risk destruction of illegal plantings which is a waste of your
                          time and efforts and of the plants themselves, and maybe a fine.

                          Check with your local jurisdiction about this stuff. If you have to
                          go before a city planning commission or something do so.

                          Mary Christine Erikson


                          In a message dated 4/7/2008 3:12:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                          martinwnaylor@ yahoo.com. au writes:

                          It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open places we are
                          the public

                          ************ **Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                          (http://travel. aol.com/travel- guide/united- states?ncid= aoltrv0003000000 0016)

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                        • ingrid glass
                          Just seen this about to be published : http://www.guerrillagardening.org/onguerrillagardening.html It s a pity the link to buy goes to Amazon - order from your
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 9, 2008
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                            Just seen this about to be published : http://www.guerrillagardening.org/onguerrillagardening.html

                            It's a pity the link to buy goes to Amazon - order from your local independent bookstore!! Ingrid
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                          • Mathew Waehner
                            I do a bit of gardening in public and abandoned places, but not quite the same as we ve been talking about here- I would describe it as casual foraging
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 9, 2008
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                              I do a bit of gardening in public and abandoned places, but not quite the
                              same as we've been talking about here- I would describe it as casual
                              foraging permaculture. For example, when I gather wild blackberries, I
                              groom them by cutting the Japanese honeysuckle that tries to overtake them.
                              I'm also planning to sow seeds from my forest garden plants throughout my
                              city's greenway system.

                              Maybe the place to put our edible plants is the semi- wild perimeter of
                              public spaces. I think that good permaculture food forestry looks like a
                              natural forest to the casual eye.

                              If we are willing to work with native plants and small seedlings, we could
                              create an entire forest garden that everyone else would think is "natural".
                              Since we will be giving minimal care to these plants, any that don't
                              function properly in the system will eventually die off.

                              Of course, this kind of casual management is natural- indigenous people have
                              always tended the plants that sustain them.



                              On 4/8/08, Marc Bailey <playtoe1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Its often not practical to start with government to begin making these
                              > changes. Instead of listening to their constituents many politicians are
                              > forced to follow the money in order to have the funds to buy the airtime to
                              > get reelected. In southern california developers have managed to take
                              > control of local government officials and has lead to out of control
                              > developments that often isn't in the interest of anyone but the developer's
                              > pocket.
                              >
                              > The following video covers this concept very well and ways that a city was
                              > able to positively transform public space:
                              > http://youtube.com/watch?v=qVq0exoGySc&feature=related
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > -Marc
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: "Infowolf1@... <Infowolf1%40aol.com>" <Infowolf1@...<Infowolf1%40aol.com>
                              > >
                              > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com <pfaf%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:48:33 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: growing food trees in public places
                              >
                              > excuse me? The public consists of everybody as a whole not of
                              > errant individuals. And The Public via its elected representatives
                              > has made laws you'd best check on.
                              >
                              > Or you risk destruction of illegal plantings which is a waste of your
                              > time and efforts and of the plants themselves, and maybe a fine.
                              >
                              > Check with your local jurisdiction about this stuff. If you have to
                              > go before a city planning commission or something do so.
                              >
                              > Mary Christine Erikson
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 4/7/2008 3:12:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                              > martinwnaylor@ yahoo.com. au writes:
                              >
                              > It may not be illegal to plant plants and trees in public open places we
                              > are
                              > the public
                              >
                              > ************ **Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel
                              > Guides.
                              > (http://travel. aol.com/travel- guide/united- states?ncid=
                              > aoltrv0003000000 0016)
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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                              >



                              --
                              Matt

                              This is our grace: To be a note
                              In the exact chord that animates creation

                              -- Deena Metzger


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                            • Traveler in Thyme
                              Yes, Matthew! Come live in my neighborhood, we have several neighbors who have given me permission to scape their land if it can be kept natural looking ,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                Yes, Matthew! Come live in my neighborhood, we have several neighbors who
                                have given me permission to 'scape their land if it can be kept "natural
                                looking", though the job is hopeless unless we thin out the cedar scrub and
                                the whitetail deer. Our fenced back yard looks like a jungle, but almost
                                everything in it is useful to us humans, and the rest is useful to birds and
                                butterflies. Outside the fence, where the deer overgraze, looks like the
                                moon. Overgrazing causes cedar to take over, which kills everything else,
                                but slashing and burning the cedar just makes things worse. The mistakes
                                of the past haunt us here in Central Texas.

                                Marcia Cash
                                ~Traveler in Thyme~


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