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Re: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

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  • Juliano
    HI man I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      HI man

      I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the real state of things and to wake UP.

      I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.

      Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"

      hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.

      Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.

      Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)

      regarde

      Juliano
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: cromlech108
      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
      Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?


      Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
      terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
      in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
      free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
      than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
      of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
      of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
      and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
      just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
      properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
      walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
      gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
      society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
      the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
      and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
      various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
      the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
      materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
      death.

      Allah Akbar

      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
      license and
      > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
      because of the
      > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
      going to
      > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
      > manages to say anything specific!
      >
      >
      >
      > Cesca
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Travis
      > Philp
      > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
      confused
      > than when I started :)
      >
      > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
      still
      > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
      cardboard
      > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
      exactly what
      > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
      > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
      as you
      > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
      concerned
      > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
      that may
      > include in its ingredients.
      >
      > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
      they're
      > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
      > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
      > feasible distance of my home.
      >
      > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
      can get a
      > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
      looser
      > than mine though.
      >
      > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
      mentioned in
      > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
      layer with
      > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
      > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
      > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
      > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
      >
      > Travis






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    • Dan Culbertson
      From http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109 cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        From
        http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109
        "cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
        cornstarch adhesives a year to glue together the paper layers that make up
        corrugated containers. (Cardboard is actually composed of multiple sheets of
        thick, stiff paper)."
        So I don't think the glue is the main issue - though they might add
        something nasty to that cornstarch. I suspect a bigger problem might be the
        fire retardants and moisture repellents that are used on some, not all,
        corrugated cardboard. From what I've heard informally, non-corrugated
        boxboard (like breakfast cereal or carcker boxes) supposedly have insect
        repellents in them so bugs won't get in the food - I wonder if that is also
        true of some corrugated? Wouldn't want roaches in the warehouse to fest on
        all that tasty cornstarch! At any rate, since it is impossible to know for
        certain what industry is putting in all those things I'd rather use
        agricultural plastic for a temporary weed or turf smothering mulch then
        remove it and use leaves and such to maintain the area weed free. There is
        always the possibility that plastic is leachig someting or other into the
        soil but I think it is pretty certain that cardboard adds something or other
        not natural to the soil when it decomposes. Choose your poison! Personally
        I am more paranoid about cardboard so that is on my no-no list. Might
        change that later as I get more info on what is or isn't eaching from
        plastic. Maybe we should just use a good, hot, propane weed torch followed
        by a leaf mulch. Or a slash and char technique that would add charcoal to
        the soil.

        Dan

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
        To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 16:04
        Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


        >I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
        > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of
        > the
        > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going
        > to
        > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
        > manages to say anything specific!
        >
        >
        >
        > Cesca
      • Travis Philp
        Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I d like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I'd like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read somewhere that the glue which bonds the sheets together in corrugated cardboard was vegetable starch based but who knows what else they add in there.

          As for calling cardboard companies...thats why I've held off until now. I don't expect straight answers from them.

          Travis

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
          To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:04:12 -0000
          Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

          I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
          was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
          glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
          see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
          manages to say anything specific!



          Cesca



          _____

          From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
          Philp
          Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?



          Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
          than when I started :)

          I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
          concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
          than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
          I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
          quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
          probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
          with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
          include in its ingredients.

          As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
          very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
          local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
          feasible distance of my home.

          I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
          straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
          than mine though.

          I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
          a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
          an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
          should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
          offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
          cannot grow my own mulch plants.

          Travis





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Travis Philp
          Hey Vic, I m sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I d like to keep it out of my food is all. And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hey Vic,

            I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it out of my food is all.

            And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of the literature I've read on permaculture.

            I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.

            Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with just didn't do its homework.

            Travis
            -----Original Message-----
            From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
            Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

            Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
            harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
            an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
            operatives using it.

            Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.

            There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
            cardboard production.

            Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
            glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
            the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there was
            a bad cardboard glue around?

            And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?

            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
            regulation
            > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
            factor
            > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
            > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
            > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
            amount
            > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
            sort
            > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
            > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
            > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
            > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
            > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
            > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
            > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important
            for
            > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
            > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
            > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
            > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
            > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
            > death.
            >
            > Allah Akbar
            >
            > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
            > license and
            > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
            > because of the
            > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I
            am
            > going to
            > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
            company
            > > manages to say anything specific!
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Cesca
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > _____
            > >
            > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of Travis
            > > Philp
            > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
            > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
            > confused
            > > than when I started :)
            > >
            > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I
            am
            > still
            > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
            > cardboard
            > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
            > exactly what
            > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
            out. The
            > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
            toxins
            > as you
            > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
            > concerned
            > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
            what
            > that may
            > > include in its ingredients.
            > >
            > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
            > they're
            > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
            become a
            > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
            within
            > > feasible distance of my home.
            > >
            > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
            > can get a
            > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic
            is
            > looser
            > > than mine though.
            > >
            > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
            > mentioned in
            > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
            > layer with
            > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
            effective but
            > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
            materials from
            > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
            therefore
            > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
            > >
            > > Travis
            >
          • vic_doyle
            Hi again Travis, The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not mixed with the food , I can t see black plastic leaching to any significant
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi again Travis,

              The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed
              with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any
              significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but
              cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

              I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been
              used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical
              additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we
              breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just
              seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and
              in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than
              reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking
              at a computer screen".

              Thats all!

              Vic



              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Vic,
              >
              > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it
              out of my food is all.
              >
              > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as
              toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of
              the literature I've read on permaculture.
              >
              > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it
              was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
              >
              > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned
              for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or
              tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I
              just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with
              just didn't do its homework.
              >
              > Travis
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
              > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
              > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
              >
              > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
              > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
              > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
              > operatives using it.
              >
              > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
              >
              > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
              > cardboard production.
              >
              > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
              > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
              > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there
              was
              > a bad cardboard glue around?
              >
              > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
              >
              > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
              > regulation
              > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
              > factor
              > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic
              from
              > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more
              pure
              > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
              > amount
              > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
              > sort
              > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic
              fade
              > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but
              you
              > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
              > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,
              and
              > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
              > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
              > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats
              important
              > for
              > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the
              wind,
              > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK
              from
              > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due
              to
              > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
              > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else
              until
              > > death.
              > >
              > > Allah Akbar
              > >
              > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
              > > license and
              > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
              > > because of the
              > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so
              I
              > am
              > > going to
              > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
              > company
              > > > manages to say anything specific!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Cesca
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > _____
              > > >
              > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf
              > > Of Travis
              > > > Philp
              > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
              > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm
              more
              > > confused
              > > > than when I started :)
              > > >
              > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but
              I
              > am
              > > still
              > > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident
              in
              > > cardboard
              > > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
              > > exactly what
              > > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
              > out. The
              > > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
              > toxins
              > > as you
              > > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm
              very
              > > concerned
              > > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
              > what
              > > that may
              > > > include in its ingredients.
              > > >
              > > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't
              think
              > > they're
              > > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
              > become a
              > > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
              > within
              > > > feasible distance of my home.
              > > >
              > > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if
              I
              > > can get a
              > > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of
              toxic
              > is
              > > looser
              > > > than mine though.
              > > >
              > > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
              > > mentioned in
              > > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the
              cardboard
              > > layer with
              > > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
              > effective but
              > > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
              > materials from
              > > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
              > therefore
              > > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
              > > >
              > > > Travis
              > >
              >
            • BT Benjaminson
              I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic. I bought some of that brown paper used
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic.
                I bought some of that brown paper used to make boxes, and put it as mulch around some important plants, and I don't think the plants like it at all.
                So I am planning to stop using it.
                Bat-tzion Benjaminson
                Negev desert, Israel
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Cesca Beamish
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:04 PM
                Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


                I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
                glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
                see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                manages to say anything specific!

                Cesca

                _____

                From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
                Philp
                Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

                Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
                than when I started :)

                I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
                concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
                than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
                I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
                probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
                with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
                include in its ingredients.

                As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
                very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                feasible distance of my home.

                I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
                straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
                than mine though.

                I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
                a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
                an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                Travis

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Travis Philp
                I understand how the black plastic is used. I ve worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
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                  I understand how the black plastic is used. I've worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a great eroding and leaching agent and heat (from the sun in this case) is very good at making plastics highly leachable. With all the findings about various plastic products (eg. water bottles) leaching dioxins and other toxins into our bodies I don't think its far fetched to say there is a high possibility that black plastic leaches crap into soils.

                  Anyhow, you don't even use the stuff so hats off to you. I'd love to have land to be able to plant a forest garden. You're lucky :)

                  If it were just myself I was feeding I wouldn't care so much about the possible toxins in cardboard. I'm more concerned about using the cardboard instead of it going through a recycling process and the pollution that entails. I am responsible for a community garden which serves a number of foodbanks, as well as individual gardeners. So far we have only done sheet mulch/lasagne style bed prep and I would like to be able to give them the proper information regarding this issue.

                  Travis
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:20:06 -0000
                  Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

                  --11E06HM7XCT-2NxjbzBONYTGBwsSpqGvLzapwNR
                  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
                  Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

                  Hi again Travis,

                  The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed=20
                  with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any=20
                  significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but=20
                  cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

                  I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been=20
                  used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical=20
                  additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we=20
                  breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just=20
                  seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and=20
                  in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than=20
                  reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking=20
                  at a computer screen".

                  Thats all!

                  Vic

                  =20=20

                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Vic,
                  >=20
                  > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it=20
                  out of my food is all.
                  >=20
                  > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as=20
                  toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of=20
                  the literature I've read on permaculture.=20
                  >=20
                  > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it=20
                  was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
                  >=20
                  > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned=20
                  for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or=20
                  tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I=20
                  just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with=20
                  just didn't do its homework.=20
                  >=20
                  > Travis
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                  > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                  > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                  >=20
                  > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance=20
                  > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in=20
                  > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to=20
                  > operatives using it.
                  >=20
                  > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
                  >=20
                  > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in=20
                  > cardboard production.
                  >=20
                  > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard=20
                  > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and=20
                  > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there=20
                  was=20
                  > a bad cardboard glue around?
                  >=20
                  > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
                  >=20
                  > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic=20
                  > regulation
                  > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real=20
                  > factor
                  > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic=20
                  from
                  > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more=20
                  pure
                  > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small=20
                  > amount
                  > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some=20
                  > sort
                  > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic=20
                  fade
                  > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but=20
                  you
                  > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                  > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,=20
                  and
                  > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                  > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                  > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats=20
                  important=20
                  > for
                  > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the=20
                  wind,
                  > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK=20
                  from
                  > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due=20
                  to
                  > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                  > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else=20
                  until
                  > > death.=20
                  > >=20
                  > > Allah Akbar=20
                  > >=20
                  > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                  > > license and
                  > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                  > > because of the
                  > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so=20
                  I=20
                  > am
                  > > going to
                  > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard=20
                  > company
                  > > > manages to say anything specific!
                  > > >=20
                  > > >=20=20
                  > > >=20
                  > > > Cesca
                  > > >=20
                  > > >=20=20
                  > > >=20
                  > > > _____=20=20
                  > > >=20
                  > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On=20
                  Behalf
                  > > Of Travis
                  > > > Philp
                  > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                  > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                  > > >=20
                  > > >=20=20
                  > > >=20
                  > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm=20
                  more
                  > > confused
                  > > > than when I started :)=20
                  > > >=20
                  > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but=20
                  I=20
                  > am
                  > > still
                  > > > concerned about
                • cromlech108
                  Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I ve said it enough times
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
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                    Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into
                    that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I've said it
                    enough times before...no magic, no belief in magic, all materialsim or
                    some sort of half baked/right wing con trick type christianity.
                    Ridiculas and unreal harrassment from the police due to dreadlocks/new
                    agre traveller peace convoy record from years ago. They are like
                    elephants and never forget due to their 'intellegence' records. Its
                    just all designed to implode any real magic and have work/materialism
                    instead and THAT is the deadening thing to the spirit...the witch
                    within. Yes I can win at that game and am doing so in fine fine style
                    thank you...Inshallah, heading towards a profit on my business
                    activities of £300000 no less this year. Inshallah as I say, because
                    you have to be humble. Nice to know there are fellow edible tree
                    enthusiasts around the world. I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                    of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                    acres just by where I live on Anglesey also (no grey squirrels on
                    Anglsey which is a huge bonus for nut tree growing!) I always wanted
                    to do this because though I liked to plant trees out in the
                    wild/gurellia planting, lots failed or got trashed and its depressing
                    when you've planted lots of trees in among gorse bushes and then you
                    see the landowner grubbing up all those tree nursery sancturies. I
                    also will have respect from the local mainstream nazi types in terms
                    of business success by the end of all this. (as for new
                    age/alternative types, well you couldn't be more out of order if you
                    set your mind to it eh 'beast', forget it, bye bye scum)

                    Yes again, most local folks are sound, but again probably due to the
                    dreadlocks 'disguise' I can perceive quite easily who are the 'nice
                    guys' and who are the fascists amongst the local folk and farmers. I
                    think the eco warrior stint has made me less tolerant actually, made
                    it into a 'respect issue' with these so and so's. I simple wont put up
                    with it now. Then again its really something I have to let go of as
                    I'm not actually in the position that I would be perhaps in the
                    Pashtun tribal areas where what I have done would be honoured by local
                    people as they are more awake in terms of tribal values than in
                    heavily colonialised Wales, UK, where the pervert power colonialsit
                    state is the 'power' rather than tribal values and leadership. You
                    have to let go and not take it so seriously here because honour cannot
                    be asserted here, without running into trouble with their order, their
                    cops and all the rest of it. I do feel it would be different in
                    Morrocco say, it was in India due to magic/religion. I don't think if
                    I was able to tap into again this primal alchemic community wide
                    consciousness/reality shift thing again as an individual saint, that
                    the authorities there would try and sabatarge by some very nasty and
                    sick head games at the very least. That seem to be the score in Blighty.

                    Deep, sorry, just got some pinus pinea seed, more than I need so lets
                    try sharing again.

                    Ta

                    Jim

                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Juliano" <juliano8@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > HI man
                    >
                    > I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot
                    softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side,
                    because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the
                    real state of things and to wake UP.
                    >
                    > I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching
                    straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance
                    even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.
                    >
                    > Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I
                    remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he
                    told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and
                    faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"
                    >
                    > hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression
                    being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own
                    inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can
                    make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.
                    >
                    > Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this
                    makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster
                    faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are
                    drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers
                    because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.
                    >
                    > Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)
                    >
                    > regarde
                    >
                    > Juliano
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: cromlech108
                    > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
                    > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
                    > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
                    > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                    > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                    > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
                    > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
                    > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                    > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                    > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                    > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                    > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                    > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                    > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
                    > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                    > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                    > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                    > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                    > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                    > death.
                    >
                    > Allah Akbar
                    >
                    > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                    > license and
                    > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                    > because of the
                    > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
                    > going to
                    > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                    company
                    > > manages to say anything specific!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Cesca
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > _____
                    > >
                    > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of Travis
                    > > Philp
                    > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                    > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                    > confused
                    > > than when I started :)
                    > >
                    > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
                    > still
                    > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                    > cardboard
                    > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                    > exactly what
                    > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                    out. The
                    > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
                    > as you
                    > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                    > concerned
                    > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
                    > that may
                    > > include in its ingredients.
                    > >
                    > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                    > they're
                    > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                    become a
                    > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                    > > feasible distance of my home.
                    > >
                    > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                    > can get a
                    > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
                    > looser
                    > > than mine though.
                    > >
                    > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                    > mentioned in
                    > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                    > layer with
                    > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                    effective but
                    > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                    materials from
                    > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                    therefore
                    > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                    > >
                    > > Travis
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > Checked by AVG.
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                    >
                  • cromlech108
                    ... I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a barely credible
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
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                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:

                      > I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                      > of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                      > acres just by where I live on Anglesey also

                      I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be
                      thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a
                      barely credible £72000. Thats around £10000/acre. Unreal price for
                      North Wales...possibly the seaside factor coming in there, Anglseys
                      has become very fashionable recently, and Red Wharf Bay, an exclusive
                      and desirable area. The initial guide price was £18000 for the lot. I
                      was AB-SOL-UTE-LY determined to buy it. I had to buy it. Fortunatly I
                      am selling some land elsewhere at an equally silly price, and so could
                      bid up to that price. Its very sweet area of land and is right in
                      front of my cottage there. I had to buy it....its a wooded mound, so
                      you can see the trees on it laid out in front of you across a small
                      private valley. the previous owner was tree nut and so its well
                      managed with the Foresrt Commissions conifers having been replaced
                      with natives, especially oak, in a planned way...as more gaps are
                      opened up I shall plant nut and fruit trees for my friends, the birds!

                      Blessings.

                      TIBETAN TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY!

                      ;)
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