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Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

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  • cromlech108
    Yes sure, I m sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don t think its s real factor in the garden. I
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
      Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
      terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
      in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
      free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
      than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
      of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
      of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
      and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
      just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
      properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
      walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
      gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
      society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
      the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
      and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
      various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
      the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
      materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
      death.

      Allah Akbar

      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
      license and
      > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
      because of the
      > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
      going to
      > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
      > manages to say anything specific!
      >
      >
      >
      > Cesca
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Travis
      > Philp
      > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
      confused
      > than when I started :)
      >
      > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
      still
      > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
      cardboard
      > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
      exactly what
      > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
      > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
      as you
      > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
      concerned
      > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
      that may
      > include in its ingredients.
      >
      > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
      they're
      > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
      > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
      > feasible distance of my home.
      >
      > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
      can get a
      > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
      looser
      > than mine though.
      >
      > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
      mentioned in
      > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
      layer with
      > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
      > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
      > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
      > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
      >
      > Travis
    • vic_doyle
      Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in an employment situation
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
        Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
        harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
        an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
        operatives using it.

        Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.

        There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
        cardboard production.

        Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
        glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
        the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there was
        a bad cardboard glue around?

        And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?

        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
        regulation
        > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
        factor
        > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
        > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
        > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
        amount
        > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
        sort
        > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
        > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
        > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
        > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
        > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
        > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
        > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important
        for
        > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
        > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
        > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
        > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
        > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
        > death.
        >
        > Allah Akbar
        >
        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
        > license and
        > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
        > because of the
        > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I
        am
        > going to
        > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
        company
        > > manages to say anything specific!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Cesca
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > _____
        > >
        > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of Travis
        > > Philp
        > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
        > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
        > confused
        > > than when I started :)
        > >
        > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I
        am
        > still
        > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
        > cardboard
        > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
        > exactly what
        > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
        out. The
        > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
        toxins
        > as you
        > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
        > concerned
        > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
        what
        > that may
        > > include in its ingredients.
        > >
        > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
        > they're
        > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
        become a
        > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
        within
        > > feasible distance of my home.
        > >
        > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
        > can get a
        > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic
        is
        > looser
        > > than mine though.
        > >
        > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
        > mentioned in
        > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
        > layer with
        > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
        effective but
        > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
        materials from
        > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
        therefore
        > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
        > >
        > > Travis
        >
      • Juliano
        HI man I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
          HI man

          I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the real state of things and to wake UP.

          I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.

          Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"

          hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.

          Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.

          Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)

          regarde

          Juliano
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: cromlech108
          To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
          Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?


          Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
          terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
          in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
          free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
          than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
          of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
          of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
          and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
          just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
          properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
          walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
          gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
          society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
          the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
          and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
          various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
          the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
          materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
          death.

          Allah Akbar

          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
          license and
          > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
          because of the
          > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
          going to
          > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
          > manages to say anything specific!
          >
          >
          >
          > Cesca
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Travis
          > Philp
          > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
          > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
          confused
          > than when I started :)
          >
          > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
          still
          > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
          cardboard
          > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
          exactly what
          > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
          > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
          as you
          > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
          concerned
          > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
          that may
          > include in its ingredients.
          >
          > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
          they're
          > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
          > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
          > feasible distance of my home.
          >
          > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
          can get a
          > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
          looser
          > than mine though.
          >
          > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
          mentioned in
          > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
          layer with
          > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
          > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
          > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
          > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
          >
          > Travis






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dan Culbertson
          From http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109 cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
            From
            http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109
            "cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
            cornstarch adhesives a year to glue together the paper layers that make up
            corrugated containers. (Cardboard is actually composed of multiple sheets of
            thick, stiff paper)."
            So I don't think the glue is the main issue - though they might add
            something nasty to that cornstarch. I suspect a bigger problem might be the
            fire retardants and moisture repellents that are used on some, not all,
            corrugated cardboard. From what I've heard informally, non-corrugated
            boxboard (like breakfast cereal or carcker boxes) supposedly have insect
            repellents in them so bugs won't get in the food - I wonder if that is also
            true of some corrugated? Wouldn't want roaches in the warehouse to fest on
            all that tasty cornstarch! At any rate, since it is impossible to know for
            certain what industry is putting in all those things I'd rather use
            agricultural plastic for a temporary weed or turf smothering mulch then
            remove it and use leaves and such to maintain the area weed free. There is
            always the possibility that plastic is leachig someting or other into the
            soil but I think it is pretty certain that cardboard adds something or other
            not natural to the soil when it decomposes. Choose your poison! Personally
            I am more paranoid about cardboard so that is on my no-no list. Might
            change that later as I get more info on what is or isn't eaching from
            plastic. Maybe we should just use a good, hot, propane weed torch followed
            by a leaf mulch. Or a slash and char technique that would add charcoal to
            the soil.

            Dan

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
            To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 16:04
            Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


            >I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
            > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of
            > the
            > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going
            > to
            > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
            > manages to say anything specific!
            >
            >
            >
            > Cesca
          • Travis Philp
            Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I d like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
              Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I'd like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read somewhere that the glue which bonds the sheets together in corrugated cardboard was vegetable starch based but who knows what else they add in there.

              As for calling cardboard companies...thats why I've held off until now. I don't expect straight answers from them.

              Travis

              -----Original Message-----
              From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
              To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:04:12 -0000
              Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

              I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
              was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
              glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
              see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
              manages to say anything specific!



              Cesca



              _____

              From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
              Philp
              Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?



              Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
              than when I started :)

              I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
              concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
              than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
              I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
              quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
              probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
              with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
              include in its ingredients.

              As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
              very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
              local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
              feasible distance of my home.

              I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
              straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
              than mine though.

              I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
              a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
              an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
              should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
              offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
              cannot grow my own mulch plants.

              Travis





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Travis Philp
              Hey Vic, I m sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I d like to keep it out of my food is all. And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                Hey Vic,

                I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it out of my food is all.

                And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of the literature I've read on permaculture.

                I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.

                Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with just didn't do its homework.

                Travis
                -----Original Message-----
                From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

                Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
                harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
                an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
                operatives using it.

                Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.

                There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
                cardboard production.

                Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
                glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
                the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there was
                a bad cardboard glue around?

                And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?

                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
                regulation
                > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
                factor
                > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
                amount
                > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
                sort
                > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important
                for
                > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                > death.
                >
                > Allah Akbar
                >
                > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                > license and
                > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                > because of the
                > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I
                am
                > going to
                > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                company
                > > manages to say anything specific!
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Cesca
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of Travis
                > > Philp
                > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                > confused
                > > than when I started :)
                > >
                > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I
                am
                > still
                > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                > cardboard
                > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                > exactly what
                > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                out. The
                > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
                toxins
                > as you
                > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                > concerned
                > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
                what
                > that may
                > > include in its ingredients.
                > >
                > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                > they're
                > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                become a
                > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
                within
                > > feasible distance of my home.
                > >
                > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                > can get a
                > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic
                is
                > looser
                > > than mine though.
                > >
                > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                > mentioned in
                > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                > layer with
                > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                effective but
                > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                materials from
                > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                therefore
                > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                > >
                > > Travis
                >
              • vic_doyle
                Hi again Travis, The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not mixed with the food , I can t see black plastic leaching to any significant
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                  Hi again Travis,

                  The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed
                  with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any
                  significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but
                  cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

                  I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been
                  used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical
                  additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we
                  breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just
                  seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and
                  in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than
                  reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking
                  at a computer screen".

                  Thats all!

                  Vic



                  --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Vic,
                  >
                  > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it
                  out of my food is all.
                  >
                  > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as
                  toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of
                  the literature I've read on permaculture.
                  >
                  > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it
                  was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
                  >
                  > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned
                  for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or
                  tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I
                  just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with
                  just didn't do its homework.
                  >
                  > Travis
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                  > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                  > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                  >
                  > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
                  > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
                  > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
                  > operatives using it.
                  >
                  > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
                  >
                  > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
                  > cardboard production.
                  >
                  > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
                  > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
                  > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there
                  was
                  > a bad cardboard glue around?
                  >
                  > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
                  >
                  > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
                  > regulation
                  > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
                  > factor
                  > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic
                  from
                  > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more
                  pure
                  > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
                  > amount
                  > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
                  > sort
                  > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic
                  fade
                  > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but
                  you
                  > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                  > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,
                  and
                  > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                  > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                  > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats
                  important
                  > for
                  > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the
                  wind,
                  > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK
                  from
                  > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due
                  to
                  > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                  > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else
                  until
                  > > death.
                  > >
                  > > Allah Akbar
                  > >
                  > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                  > > license and
                  > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                  > > because of the
                  > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so
                  I
                  > am
                  > > going to
                  > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                  > company
                  > > > manages to say anything specific!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Cesca
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > _____
                  > > >
                  > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf
                  > > Of Travis
                  > > > Philp
                  > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                  > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm
                  more
                  > > confused
                  > > > than when I started :)
                  > > >
                  > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but
                  I
                  > am
                  > > still
                  > > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident
                  in
                  > > cardboard
                  > > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                  > > exactly what
                  > > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                  > out. The
                  > > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
                  > toxins
                  > > as you
                  > > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm
                  very
                  > > concerned
                  > > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
                  > what
                  > > that may
                  > > > include in its ingredients.
                  > > >
                  > > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't
                  think
                  > > they're
                  > > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                  > become a
                  > > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
                  > within
                  > > > feasible distance of my home.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if
                  I
                  > > can get a
                  > > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of
                  toxic
                  > is
                  > > looser
                  > > > than mine though.
                  > > >
                  > > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                  > > mentioned in
                  > > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the
                  cardboard
                  > > layer with
                  > > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                  > effective but
                  > > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                  > materials from
                  > > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                  > therefore
                  > > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                  > > >
                  > > > Travis
                  > >
                  >
                • BT Benjaminson
                  I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic. I bought some of that brown paper used
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                    I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic.
                    I bought some of that brown paper used to make boxes, and put it as mulch around some important plants, and I don't think the plants like it at all.
                    So I am planning to stop using it.
                    Bat-tzion Benjaminson
                    Negev desert, Israel
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Cesca Beamish
                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:04 PM
                    Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


                    I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                    was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
                    glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
                    see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                    manages to say anything specific!

                    Cesca

                    _____

                    From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
                    Philp
                    Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

                    Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
                    than when I started :)

                    I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
                    concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
                    than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
                    I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                    quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
                    probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
                    with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
                    include in its ingredients.

                    As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
                    very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                    local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                    feasible distance of my home.

                    I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
                    straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
                    than mine though.

                    I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
                    a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
                    an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                    should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                    offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                    cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                    Travis

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Travis Philp
                    I understand how the black plastic is used. I ve worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                      I understand how the black plastic is used. I've worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a great eroding and leaching agent and heat (from the sun in this case) is very good at making plastics highly leachable. With all the findings about various plastic products (eg. water bottles) leaching dioxins and other toxins into our bodies I don't think its far fetched to say there is a high possibility that black plastic leaches crap into soils.

                      Anyhow, you don't even use the stuff so hats off to you. I'd love to have land to be able to plant a forest garden. You're lucky :)

                      If it were just myself I was feeding I wouldn't care so much about the possible toxins in cardboard. I'm more concerned about using the cardboard instead of it going through a recycling process and the pollution that entails. I am responsible for a community garden which serves a number of foodbanks, as well as individual gardeners. So far we have only done sheet mulch/lasagne style bed prep and I would like to be able to give them the proper information regarding this issue.

                      Travis
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                      To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:20:06 -0000
                      Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

                      --11E06HM7XCT-2NxjbzBONYTGBwsSpqGvLzapwNR
                      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
                      Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

                      Hi again Travis,

                      The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed=20
                      with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any=20
                      significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but=20
                      cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

                      I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been=20
                      used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical=20
                      additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we=20
                      breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just=20
                      seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and=20
                      in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than=20
                      reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking=20
                      at a computer screen".

                      Thats all!

                      Vic

                      =20=20

                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Vic,
                      >=20
                      > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it=20
                      out of my food is all.
                      >=20
                      > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as=20
                      toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of=20
                      the literature I've read on permaculture.=20
                      >=20
                      > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it=20
                      was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
                      >=20
                      > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned=20
                      for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or=20
                      tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I=20
                      just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with=20
                      just didn't do its homework.=20
                      >=20
                      > Travis
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                      > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                      >=20
                      > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance=20
                      > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in=20
                      > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to=20
                      > operatives using it.
                      >=20
                      > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
                      >=20
                      > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in=20
                      > cardboard production.
                      >=20
                      > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard=20
                      > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and=20
                      > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there=20
                      was=20
                      > a bad cardboard glue around?
                      >=20
                      > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
                      >=20
                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic=20
                      > regulation
                      > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real=20
                      > factor
                      > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic=20
                      from
                      > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more=20
                      pure
                      > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small=20
                      > amount
                      > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some=20
                      > sort
                      > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic=20
                      fade
                      > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but=20
                      you
                      > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                      > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,=20
                      and
                      > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                      > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                      > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats=20
                      important=20
                      > for
                      > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the=20
                      wind,
                      > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK=20
                      from
                      > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due=20
                      to
                      > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                      > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else=20
                      until
                      > > death.=20
                      > >=20
                      > > Allah Akbar=20
                      > >=20
                      > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                      > > license and
                      > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                      > > because of the
                      > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so=20
                      I=20
                      > am
                      > > going to
                      > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard=20
                      > company
                      > > > manages to say anything specific!
                      > > >=20
                      > > >=20=20
                      > > >=20
                      > > > Cesca
                      > > >=20
                      > > >=20=20
                      > > >=20
                      > > > _____=20=20
                      > > >=20
                      > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On=20
                      Behalf
                      > > Of Travis
                      > > > Philp
                      > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                      > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                      > > >=20
                      > > >=20=20
                      > > >=20
                      > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm=20
                      more
                      > > confused
                      > > > than when I started :)=20
                      > > >=20
                      > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but=20
                      I=20
                      > am
                      > > still
                      > > > concerned about
                    • cromlech108
                      Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I ve said it enough times
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
                        Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into
                        that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I've said it
                        enough times before...no magic, no belief in magic, all materialsim or
                        some sort of half baked/right wing con trick type christianity.
                        Ridiculas and unreal harrassment from the police due to dreadlocks/new
                        agre traveller peace convoy record from years ago. They are like
                        elephants and never forget due to their 'intellegence' records. Its
                        just all designed to implode any real magic and have work/materialism
                        instead and THAT is the deadening thing to the spirit...the witch
                        within. Yes I can win at that game and am doing so in fine fine style
                        thank you...Inshallah, heading towards a profit on my business
                        activities of £300000 no less this year. Inshallah as I say, because
                        you have to be humble. Nice to know there are fellow edible tree
                        enthusiasts around the world. I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                        of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                        acres just by where I live on Anglesey also (no grey squirrels on
                        Anglsey which is a huge bonus for nut tree growing!) I always wanted
                        to do this because though I liked to plant trees out in the
                        wild/gurellia planting, lots failed or got trashed and its depressing
                        when you've planted lots of trees in among gorse bushes and then you
                        see the landowner grubbing up all those tree nursery sancturies. I
                        also will have respect from the local mainstream nazi types in terms
                        of business success by the end of all this. (as for new
                        age/alternative types, well you couldn't be more out of order if you
                        set your mind to it eh 'beast', forget it, bye bye scum)

                        Yes again, most local folks are sound, but again probably due to the
                        dreadlocks 'disguise' I can perceive quite easily who are the 'nice
                        guys' and who are the fascists amongst the local folk and farmers. I
                        think the eco warrior stint has made me less tolerant actually, made
                        it into a 'respect issue' with these so and so's. I simple wont put up
                        with it now. Then again its really something I have to let go of as
                        I'm not actually in the position that I would be perhaps in the
                        Pashtun tribal areas where what I have done would be honoured by local
                        people as they are more awake in terms of tribal values than in
                        heavily colonialised Wales, UK, where the pervert power colonialsit
                        state is the 'power' rather than tribal values and leadership. You
                        have to let go and not take it so seriously here because honour cannot
                        be asserted here, without running into trouble with their order, their
                        cops and all the rest of it. I do feel it would be different in
                        Morrocco say, it was in India due to magic/religion. I don't think if
                        I was able to tap into again this primal alchemic community wide
                        consciousness/reality shift thing again as an individual saint, that
                        the authorities there would try and sabatarge by some very nasty and
                        sick head games at the very least. That seem to be the score in Blighty.

                        Deep, sorry, just got some pinus pinea seed, more than I need so lets
                        try sharing again.

                        Ta

                        Jim

                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Juliano" <juliano8@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > HI man
                        >
                        > I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot
                        softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side,
                        because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the
                        real state of things and to wake UP.
                        >
                        > I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching
                        straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance
                        even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.
                        >
                        > Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I
                        remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he
                        told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and
                        faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"
                        >
                        > hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression
                        being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own
                        inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can
                        make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.
                        >
                        > Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this
                        makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster
                        faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are
                        drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers
                        because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.
                        >
                        > Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)
                        >
                        > regarde
                        >
                        > Juliano
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: cromlech108
                        > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
                        > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
                        > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
                        > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                        > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                        > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
                        > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
                        > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                        > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                        > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                        > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                        > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                        > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                        > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
                        > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                        > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                        > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                        > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                        > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                        > death.
                        >
                        > Allah Akbar
                        >
                        > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                        > license and
                        > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                        > because of the
                        > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
                        > going to
                        > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                        company
                        > > manages to say anything specific!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Cesca
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _____
                        > >
                        > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        > Of Travis
                        > > Philp
                        > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                        > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                        > confused
                        > > than when I started :)
                        > >
                        > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
                        > still
                        > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                        > cardboard
                        > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                        > exactly what
                        > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                        out. The
                        > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
                        > as you
                        > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                        > concerned
                        > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
                        > that may
                        > > include in its ingredients.
                        > >
                        > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                        > they're
                        > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                        become a
                        > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                        > > feasible distance of my home.
                        > >
                        > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                        > can get a
                        > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
                        > looser
                        > > than mine though.
                        > >
                        > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                        > mentioned in
                        > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                        > layer with
                        > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                        effective but
                        > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                        materials from
                        > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                        therefore
                        > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                        > >
                        > > Travis
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG.
                        > Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date:
                        09/03/2008 12:17
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • cromlech108
                        ... I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a barely credible
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
                          --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:

                          > I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                          > of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                          > acres just by where I live on Anglesey also

                          I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be
                          thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a
                          barely credible £72000. Thats around £10000/acre. Unreal price for
                          North Wales...possibly the seaside factor coming in there, Anglseys
                          has become very fashionable recently, and Red Wharf Bay, an exclusive
                          and desirable area. The initial guide price was £18000 for the lot. I
                          was AB-SOL-UTE-LY determined to buy it. I had to buy it. Fortunatly I
                          am selling some land elsewhere at an equally silly price, and so could
                          bid up to that price. Its very sweet area of land and is right in
                          front of my cottage there. I had to buy it....its a wooded mound, so
                          you can see the trees on it laid out in front of you across a small
                          private valley. the previous owner was tree nut and so its well
                          managed with the Foresrt Commissions conifers having been replaced
                          with natives, especially oak, in a planned way...as more gaps are
                          opened up I shall plant nut and fruit trees for my friends, the birds!

                          Blessings.

                          TIBETAN TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY!

                          ;)
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