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Re:Cardboard - toxic or not?

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  • Traveler in Thyme
    I m not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry about the lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages mold, mildew,
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 22, 2008
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      I'm not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry about the
      lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages mold,
      mildew, pill bugs, and slugs. Same with plastic mulch, I really don't care
      for ground covering that doesn't breathe.


      ---Marcia Cash
      Traveler in Thyme
      http://www.travelerinthyme.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • omoak108
      ... about the ... mold, ... don t care ... Hi Marcia. I ve used almost as much cardboard on the garden as I have cannabis...its ok sister! Cardboard is
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 22, 2008
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        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Traveler in Thyme" <marcia@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry
        about the
        > lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages
        mold,
        > mildew, pill bugs, and slugs. Same with plastic mulch, I really
        don't care
        > for ground covering that doesn't breathe.
        >
        >
        > ---Marcia Cash
        > Traveler in Thyme
        > http://www.travelerinthyme.com
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        Hi Marcia.

        I've used almost as much cardboard on the garden as I have <toked>
        cannabis...its ok sister! Cardboard is cool, especially if it is the
        brown variety. I get it from Cycle Shop skips so its in super big and
        thick pieces for mulching fruit bushes and trees...etc. It might
        harbour slugs I suppose. I've just bought a load of biodegrading mulch
        mats from Toms Tree Ties, they seem very good, don't know if its
        possible to get a wide roll of the material.

        You don't want a yew tree do you by any chance?

        Jim.
      • Gail Lloyd
        Were you trying to put down cardboard to keep the weeds at bay? There is a type of gardening called Lasagna Gardening where you put down newspapers, etc.,
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 23, 2008
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          Were you trying to put down cardboard to keep the weeds at bay?
          There is a type of gardening called "Lasagna Gardening" where you put down newspapers, etc., and make layers, and you don't have to till the soil. You can do more research on the web, but basically this is how it works:


          Don't remove the sod or do any extra work, like removing weeds or rocks.
          Mark the area for your garden using a water hose or a long rope to get the desired shape.
          Cover the area you've marked with wet newspapers, overlapping the edges (5 or more sheets per layer).
          Cover the paper with one to two inches of peat moss or other organic material.
          Layer several inches of organic material on top of the peat moss.
          Continue to alternate layers of peat moss and organic material, until desired thickness is reached.
          Water until the garden is the consistency of a damp sponge.
          Plant, plant, plant and mulch, mulch, mulch
          http://ourgardengang.tripod.com/lasagna_gardening.htm
          Gail


          Traveler in Thyme <marcia@...> wrote:
          I'm not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry about the
          lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages mold,
          mildew, pill bugs, and slugs. Same with plastic mulch, I really don't care
          for ground covering that doesn't breathe.

          ---Marcia Cash
          Traveler in Thyme
          http://www.travelerinthyme.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          ---------------------------------
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Liz Turner
          Hi Jim, if you have a yew tree going, I could plant it. Where are you though? I m near Totnes, Devon. Liz ... From: omoak108 To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 25, 2008
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            Hi Jim, if you have a yew tree going, I could plant it. Where are you though? I'm near Totnes, Devon. Liz
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: omoak108
            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 12:40 AM
            Subject: [pfaf] Re:Cardboard - toxic or not?


            --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Traveler in Thyme" <marcia@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry
            about the
            > lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages
            mold,
            > mildew, pill bugs, and slugs. Same with plastic mulch, I really
            don't care
            > for ground covering that doesn't breathe.
            >
            >
            > ---Marcia Cash
            > Traveler in Thyme
            > http://www.travelerinthyme.com
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            Hi Marcia.

            I've used almost as much cardboard on the garden as I have <toked>
            cannabis...its ok sister! Cardboard is cool, especially if it is the
            brown variety. I get it from Cycle Shop skips so its in super big and
            thick pieces for mulching fruit bushes and trees...etc. It might
            harbour slugs I suppose. I've just bought a load of biodegrading mulch
            mats from Toms Tree Ties, they seem very good, don't know if its
            possible to get a wide roll of the material.

            You don't want a yew tree do you by any chance?

            Jim.





            __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 2898 (20080223) __________

            The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

            http://www.eset.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cromlech108
            The trees are in pots from 1 foot high to about 3 foot, could do with some filling out as they were growing in shade close together, a silent crowd waiting for
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 25, 2008
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              The trees are in pots from 1 foot high to about 3 foot, could do with
              some filling out as they were growing in shade close together, a
              silent crowd waiting for you! They are located in tunbridge Wells,
              West Kent, Home of the british ******* 1-2-3.

              email me on cromlech108(antispamremove)@... if you would like
              one or more yew trees especially for a special project. If no one
              claims them, then I'll plant them out in various woods during the next
              year. Good homes only please - my twees are special twees!

              Moderators - I think you should have put my post up about cannabis.
              The list is about plant uses afterall...and thats what I was
              discussing in depth - the uses of cannabis as spiritual sacrament...
              and in some places where this this list is received, cannabis is legal
              to grow, smoke etc; so there is no reason at all why it should be
              deemed off topic other than fear of flame wars. I do find it weird how
              otherwise anarchistic people passivly accept moderation control on the
              internet. Thats why I like usenet - assholes and all. I like to swear
              sometimes whn I'm ranting at government war criminal perverts... I can
              only think of the Legalise Cannabis Alliance forum as the one place
              that didn't start censoring me in full rant...they didn't believe me,
              maybe, (the ritual child abuse case)... but at least they didn't
              censor. Alan there - is a very cool geezer.

              Om Shiva!



              WEst Kent, near Tunbride Wells--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Liz
              Turner" <liz@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jim, if you have a yew tree going, I could plant it. Where are
              you though? I'm near Totnes, Devon. Liz
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: omoak108
              > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 12:40 AM
              > Subject: [pfaf] Re:Cardboard - toxic or not?
              >
              >
              > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Traveler in Thyme" <marcia@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I'm not worried about the cardboard being toxic as much as I worry
              > about the
              > > lack of air flow under the solid cardboard layer, which encourages
              > mold,
              > > mildew, pill bugs, and slugs. Same with plastic mulch, I really
              > don't care
              > > for ground covering that doesn't breathe.
              > >
              > >
              > > ---Marcia Cash
              > > Traveler in Thyme
              > > http://www.travelerinthyme.com
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > Hi Marcia.
              >
              > I've used almost as much cardboard on the garden as I have <toked>
              > cannabis...its ok sister! Cardboard is cool, especially if it is the
              > brown variety. I get it from Cycle Shop skips so its in super big and
              > thick pieces for mulching fruit bushes and trees...etc. It might
              > harbour slugs I suppose. I've just bought a load of biodegrading mulch
              > mats from Toms Tree Ties, they seem very good, don't know if its
              > possible to get a wide roll of the material.
              >
              > You don't want a yew tree do you by any chance?
              >
              > Jim.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
              signature database 2898 (20080223) __________
              >
              > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
              >
              > http://www.eset.com
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Travis Philp
              Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I m more confused than when I started :) I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 1, 2008
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                Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused than when I started :)

                I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may include in its ingredients.

                As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within feasible distance of my home.

                I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser than mine though.

                I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                Travis
              • Cesca Beamish
                I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the glues.
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 9, 2008
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                  I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                  was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
                  glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
                  see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                  manages to say anything specific!



                  Cesca



                  _____

                  From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
                  Philp
                  Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?



                  Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
                  than when I started :)

                  I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
                  concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
                  than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
                  I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                  quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
                  probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
                  with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
                  include in its ingredients.

                  As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
                  very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                  local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                  feasible distance of my home.

                  I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
                  straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
                  than mine though.

                  I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
                  a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
                  an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                  should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                  offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                  cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                  Travis





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • cromlech108
                  Yes sure, I m sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don t think its s real factor in the garden. I
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
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                    Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
                    terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
                    in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                    free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                    than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
                    of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
                    of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                    and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                    just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                    properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                    walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                    gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                    society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
                    the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                    and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                    various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                    the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                    materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                    death.

                    Allah Akbar

                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                    license and
                    > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                    because of the
                    > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
                    going to
                    > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                    > manages to say anything specific!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Cesca
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Travis
                    > Philp
                    > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                    > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                    confused
                    > than when I started :)
                    >
                    > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
                    still
                    > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                    cardboard
                    > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                    exactly what
                    > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                    > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
                    as you
                    > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                    concerned
                    > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
                    that may
                    > include in its ingredients.
                    >
                    > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                    they're
                    > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                    > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                    > feasible distance of my home.
                    >
                    > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                    can get a
                    > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
                    looser
                    > than mine though.
                    >
                    > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                    mentioned in
                    > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                    layer with
                    > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                    > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                    > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                    > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                    >
                    > Travis
                  • vic_doyle
                    Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in an employment situation
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
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                      Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
                      harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
                      an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
                      operatives using it.

                      Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.

                      There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
                      cardboard production.

                      Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
                      glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
                      the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there was
                      a bad cardboard glue around?

                      And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?

                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
                      regulation
                      > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
                      factor
                      > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                      > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                      > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
                      amount
                      > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
                      sort
                      > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                      > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                      > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                      > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                      > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                      > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                      > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important
                      for
                      > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                      > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                      > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                      > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                      > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                      > death.
                      >
                      > Allah Akbar
                      >
                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                      > license and
                      > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                      > because of the
                      > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I
                      am
                      > going to
                      > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                      company
                      > > manages to say anything specific!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Cesca
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      > Of Travis
                      > > Philp
                      > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                      > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                      > confused
                      > > than when I started :)
                      > >
                      > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I
                      am
                      > still
                      > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                      > cardboard
                      > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                      > exactly what
                      > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                      out. The
                      > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
                      toxins
                      > as you
                      > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                      > concerned
                      > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
                      what
                      > that may
                      > > include in its ingredients.
                      > >
                      > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                      > they're
                      > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                      become a
                      > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
                      within
                      > > feasible distance of my home.
                      > >
                      > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                      > can get a
                      > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic
                      is
                      > looser
                      > > than mine though.
                      > >
                      > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                      > mentioned in
                      > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                      > layer with
                      > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                      effective but
                      > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                      materials from
                      > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                      therefore
                      > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                      > >
                      > > Travis
                      >
                    • Juliano
                      HI man I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        HI man

                        I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side, because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the real state of things and to wake UP.

                        I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.

                        Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"

                        hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.

                        Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.

                        Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)

                        regarde

                        Juliano
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: cromlech108
                        To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
                        Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?


                        Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
                        terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
                        in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                        free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                        than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
                        of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
                        of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                        and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                        just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                        properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                        walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                        gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                        society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
                        the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                        and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                        various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                        the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                        materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                        death.

                        Allah Akbar

                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                        license and
                        > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                        because of the
                        > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
                        going to
                        > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                        > manages to say anything specific!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Cesca
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Travis
                        > Philp
                        > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                        > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                        confused
                        > than when I started :)
                        >
                        > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
                        still
                        > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                        cardboard
                        > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                        exactly what
                        > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                        > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
                        as you
                        > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                        concerned
                        > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
                        that may
                        > include in its ingredients.
                        >
                        > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                        they're
                        > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                        > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                        > feasible distance of my home.
                        >
                        > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                        can get a
                        > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
                        looser
                        > than mine though.
                        >
                        > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                        mentioned in
                        > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                        layer with
                        > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                        > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                        > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                        > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                        >
                        > Travis






                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dan Culbertson
                        From http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109 cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          From
                          http://www.smalltimes.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=269497&p=109
                          "cardboard manufacturers currently use about four billion pounds of
                          cornstarch adhesives a year to glue together the paper layers that make up
                          corrugated containers. (Cardboard is actually composed of multiple sheets of
                          thick, stiff paper)."
                          So I don't think the glue is the main issue - though they might add
                          something nasty to that cornstarch. I suspect a bigger problem might be the
                          fire retardants and moisture repellents that are used on some, not all,
                          corrugated cardboard. From what I've heard informally, non-corrugated
                          boxboard (like breakfast cereal or carcker boxes) supposedly have insect
                          repellents in them so bugs won't get in the food - I wonder if that is also
                          true of some corrugated? Wouldn't want roaches in the warehouse to fest on
                          all that tasty cornstarch! At any rate, since it is impossible to know for
                          certain what industry is putting in all those things I'd rather use
                          agricultural plastic for a temporary weed or turf smothering mulch then
                          remove it and use leaves and such to maintain the area weed free. There is
                          always the possibility that plastic is leachig someting or other into the
                          soil but I think it is pretty certain that cardboard adds something or other
                          not natural to the soil when it decomposes. Choose your poison! Personally
                          I am more paranoid about cardboard so that is on my no-no list. Might
                          change that later as I get more info on what is or isn't eaching from
                          plastic. Maybe we should just use a good, hot, propane weed torch followed
                          by a leaf mulch. Or a slash and char technique that would add charcoal to
                          the soil.

                          Dan

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
                          To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 16:04
                          Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


                          >I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                          > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of
                          > the
                          > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going
                          > to
                          > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                          > manages to say anything specific!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Cesca
                        • Travis Philp
                          Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I d like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Cesca. Thanks for the input. Does your soil association have a website or email address? I'd like to ask them more about their ban on cardboard. I had read somewhere that the glue which bonds the sheets together in corrugated cardboard was vegetable starch based but who knows what else they add in there.

                            As for calling cardboard companies...thats why I've held off until now. I don't expect straight answers from them.

                            Travis

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@...>
                            To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:04:12 -0000
                            Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

                            I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                            was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
                            glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
                            see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                            manages to say anything specific!



                            Cesca



                            _____

                            From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
                            Philp
                            Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                            To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?



                            Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
                            than when I started :)

                            I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
                            concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
                            than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
                            I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                            quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
                            probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
                            with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
                            include in its ingredients.

                            As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
                            very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                            local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                            feasible distance of my home.

                            I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
                            straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
                            than mine though.

                            I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
                            a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
                            an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                            should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                            offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                            cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                            Travis





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Travis Philp
                            Hey Vic, I m sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I d like to keep it out of my food is all. And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hey Vic,

                              I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it out of my food is all.

                              And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of the literature I've read on permaculture.

                              I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.

                              Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with just didn't do its homework.

                              Travis
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                              To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                              Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

                              Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
                              harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
                              an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
                              operatives using it.

                              Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.

                              There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
                              cardboard production.

                              Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
                              glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
                              the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there was
                              a bad cardboard glue around?

                              And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?

                              --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
                              regulation
                              > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
                              factor
                              > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                              > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                              > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
                              amount
                              > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
                              sort
                              > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                              > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                              > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                              > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                              > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                              > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                              > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important
                              for
                              > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                              > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                              > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                              > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                              > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                              > death.
                              >
                              > Allah Akbar
                              >
                              > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                              > license and
                              > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                              > because of the
                              > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I
                              am
                              > going to
                              > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                              company
                              > > manages to say anything specific!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Cesca
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              > Of Travis
                              > > Philp
                              > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                              > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                              > confused
                              > > than when I started :)
                              > >
                              > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I
                              am
                              > still
                              > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                              > cardboard
                              > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                              > exactly what
                              > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                              out. The
                              > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
                              toxins
                              > as you
                              > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                              > concerned
                              > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
                              what
                              > that may
                              > > include in its ingredients.
                              > >
                              > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                              > they're
                              > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                              become a
                              > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
                              within
                              > > feasible distance of my home.
                              > >
                              > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                              > can get a
                              > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic
                              is
                              > looser
                              > > than mine though.
                              > >
                              > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                              > mentioned in
                              > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                              > layer with
                              > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                              effective but
                              > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                              materials from
                              > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                              therefore
                              > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                              > >
                              > > Travis
                              >
                            • vic_doyle
                              Hi again Travis, The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not mixed with the food , I can t see black plastic leaching to any significant
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi again Travis,

                                The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed
                                with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any
                                significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but
                                cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

                                I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been
                                used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical
                                additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we
                                breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just
                                seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and
                                in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than
                                reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking
                                at a computer screen".

                                Thats all!

                                Vic



                                --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hey Vic,
                                >
                                > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it
                                out of my food is all.
                                >
                                > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as
                                toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of
                                the literature I've read on permaculture.
                                >
                                > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it
                                was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
                                >
                                > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned
                                for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or
                                tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I
                                just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with
                                just didn't do its homework.
                                >
                                > Travis
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                                > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                                > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                >
                                > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance
                                > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in
                                > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to
                                > operatives using it.
                                >
                                > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
                                >
                                > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in
                                > cardboard production.
                                >
                                > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard
                                > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and
                                > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there
                                was
                                > a bad cardboard glue around?
                                >
                                > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
                                >
                                > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic
                                > regulation
                                > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real
                                > factor
                                > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic
                                from
                                > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more
                                pure
                                > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small
                                > amount
                                > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some
                                > sort
                                > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic
                                fade
                                > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but
                                you
                                > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                                > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,
                                and
                                > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                                > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                                > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats
                                important
                                > for
                                > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the
                                wind,
                                > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK
                                from
                                > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due
                                to
                                > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                                > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else
                                until
                                > > death.
                                > >
                                > > Allah Akbar
                                > >
                                > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                                > > license and
                                > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                                > > because of the
                                > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so
                                I
                                > am
                                > > going to
                                > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                                > company
                                > > > manages to say anything specific!
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Cesca
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > _____
                                > > >
                                > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf
                                > > Of Travis
                                > > > Philp
                                > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                                > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm
                                more
                                > > confused
                                > > > than when I started :)
                                > > >
                                > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but
                                I
                                > am
                                > > still
                                > > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident
                                in
                                > > cardboard
                                > > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                                > > exactly what
                                > > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                                > out. The
                                > > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some
                                > toxins
                                > > as you
                                > > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm
                                very
                                > > concerned
                                > > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and
                                > what
                                > > that may
                                > > > include in its ingredients.
                                > > >
                                > > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't
                                think
                                > > they're
                                > > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                                > become a
                                > > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers
                                > within
                                > > > feasible distance of my home.
                                > > >
                                > > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if
                                I
                                > > can get a
                                > > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of
                                toxic
                                > is
                                > > looser
                                > > > than mine though.
                                > > >
                                > > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                                > > mentioned in
                                > > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the
                                cardboard
                                > > layer with
                                > > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                                > effective but
                                > > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                                > materials from
                                > > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                                > therefore
                                > > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                                > > >
                                > > > Travis
                                > >
                                >
                              • BT Benjaminson
                                I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic. I bought some of that brown paper used
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I was told by a cardboard box maker here in Israel that the glue is definitely toxic but the paper itself is not toxic.
                                  I bought some of that brown paper used to make boxes, and put it as mulch around some important plants, and I don't think the plants like it at all.
                                  So I am planning to stop using it.
                                  Bat-tzion Benjaminson
                                  Negev desert, Israel
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Cesca Beamish
                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:04 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?


                                  I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers license and
                                  was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated because of the
                                  glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am going to
                                  see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard company
                                  manages to say anything specific!

                                  Cesca

                                  _____

                                  From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Travis
                                  Philp
                                  Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                                  To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?

                                  Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more confused
                                  than when I started :)

                                  I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am still
                                  concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in cardboard
                                  than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know exactly what
                                  I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach out. The
                                  quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins as you
                                  probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very concerned
                                  with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what that may
                                  include in its ingredients.

                                  As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think they're
                                  very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to become a
                                  local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                                  feasible distance of my home.

                                  I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I can get a
                                  straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is looser
                                  than mine though.

                                  I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as mentioned in
                                  a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard layer with
                                  an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as effective but
                                  should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch materials from
                                  offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and therefore
                                  cannot grow my own mulch plants.

                                  Travis

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Travis Philp
                                  I understand how the black plastic is used. I ve worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 11, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I understand how the black plastic is used. I've worked on a farm that used it extensively. I saw it tear and weaken from sun and water damage. Water is a great eroding and leaching agent and heat (from the sun in this case) is very good at making plastics highly leachable. With all the findings about various plastic products (eg. water bottles) leaching dioxins and other toxins into our bodies I don't think its far fetched to say there is a high possibility that black plastic leaches crap into soils.

                                    Anyhow, you don't even use the stuff so hats off to you. I'd love to have land to be able to plant a forest garden. You're lucky :)

                                    If it were just myself I was feeding I wouldn't care so much about the possible toxins in cardboard. I'm more concerned about using the cardboard instead of it going through a recycling process and the pollution that entails. I am responsible for a community garden which serves a number of foodbanks, as well as individual gardeners. So far we have only done sheet mulch/lasagne style bed prep and I would like to be able to give them the proper information regarding this issue.

                                    Travis
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                                    To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:20:06 -0000
                                    Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?

                                    --11E06HM7XCT-2NxjbzBONYTGBwsSpqGvLzapwNR
                                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
                                    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

                                    Hi again Travis,

                                    The black plastic is used as a cover to warm the soil up, not "mixed=20
                                    with the food", I can't see black plastic "leaching" to any=20
                                    significant level, I don't use it, i prefer forest gardening, but=20
                                    cardboard is an excellent mulch mat for new trees.

                                    I think I read somewhere that animal glues are used, these have been=20
                                    used for many years, perhaps because they don'e need a chemical=20
                                    additive, the contamination could be compared to the air that we=20
                                    breathe which is contaminated with car/airplane exhaust, it just=20
                                    seems to me that cardboard is an extremely useful waste product, and=20
                                    in terms of chemical content, its probably no more dangerous than=20
                                    reading a newspaper and getting ink on your fingers, or even "looking=20
                                    at a computer screen".

                                    Thats all!

                                    Vic

                                    =20=20

                                    --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Philp" <trphilp@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hey Vic,
                                    >=20
                                    > I'm sure nature can handle it but if its toxic I'd like to keep it=20
                                    out of my food is all.
                                    >=20
                                    > And as for the permaculture police; black plastic is well known as=20
                                    toxic and highly leachable but it is still widely present in much of=20
                                    the literature I've read on permaculture.=20
                                    >=20
                                    > I don't think all cardboard is made from recycled paper but if it=20
                                    was I'd be worried. Bleach residue isn't something I want in my body.
                                    >=20
                                    > Cesca: I just remembered that a certified organic farm I interned=20
                                    for was allowed to use cardboard as long as there were no inks, or=20
                                    tape. I'm not saying this trumps the cert. board you speak of but I=20
                                    just thought I'd put that out there. Maybe the board I dealt with=20
                                    just didn't do its homework.=20
                                    >=20
                                    > Travis
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: "vic_doyle" <vic_doyle@...>
                                    > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:54 -0000
                                    > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                    >=20
                                    > Any company making cardboard should have a COSHH care of substance=20
                                    > harmful to health register, all chemicals In the UK anyway) used in=20
                                    > an employment situation have to be recorded and made available to=20
                                    > operatives using it.
                                    >=20
                                    > Alternatively check out any skips or waste areas at the factory.
                                    >=20
                                    > There must be information on the net about what glue is used in=20
                                    > cardboard production.
                                    >=20
                                    > Anyway. Permaculturists often joke about how worms love cardboard=20
                                    > glue, so I think its probably nothing that nature can't handle, and=20
                                    > the permaculture police would have made sure we all know if there=20
                                    was=20
                                    > a bad cardboard glue around?
                                    >=20
                                    > And cardboard. Is it always made from reclaimed/ recycled paper?
                                    >=20
                                    > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic=20
                                    > regulation
                                    > > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real=20
                                    > factor
                                    > > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic=20
                                    from
                                    > > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more=20
                                    pure
                                    > > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small=20
                                    > amount
                                    > > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some=20
                                    > sort
                                    > > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic=20
                                    fade
                                    > > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but=20
                                    you
                                    > > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                                    > > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco,=20
                                    and
                                    > > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                                    > > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                                    > > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats=20
                                    important=20
                                    > for
                                    > > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the=20
                                    wind,
                                    > > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK=20
                                    from
                                    > > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due=20
                                    to
                                    > > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                                    > > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else=20
                                    until
                                    > > death.=20
                                    > >=20
                                    > > Allah Akbar=20
                                    > >=20
                                    > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                                    > > license and
                                    > > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                                    > > because of the
                                    > > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so=20
                                    I=20
                                    > am
                                    > > going to
                                    > > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard=20
                                    > company
                                    > > > manages to say anything specific!
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > >=20=20
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > > Cesca
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > >=20=20
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > > _____=20=20
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On=20
                                    Behalf
                                    > > Of Travis
                                    > > > Philp
                                    > > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                                    > > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > >=20=20
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm=20
                                    more
                                    > > confused
                                    > > > than when I started :)=20
                                    > > >=20
                                    > > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but=20
                                    I=20
                                    > am
                                    > > still
                                    > > > concerned about
                                  • cromlech108
                                    Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I ve said it enough times
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Its the cultural set and setting of the place that I was born into
                                      that I object to. Its deadening..due to the lack of, well I've said it
                                      enough times before...no magic, no belief in magic, all materialsim or
                                      some sort of half baked/right wing con trick type christianity.
                                      Ridiculas and unreal harrassment from the police due to dreadlocks/new
                                      agre traveller peace convoy record from years ago. They are like
                                      elephants and never forget due to their 'intellegence' records. Its
                                      just all designed to implode any real magic and have work/materialism
                                      instead and THAT is the deadening thing to the spirit...the witch
                                      within. Yes I can win at that game and am doing so in fine fine style
                                      thank you...Inshallah, heading towards a profit on my business
                                      activities of £300000 no less this year. Inshallah as I say, because
                                      you have to be humble. Nice to know there are fellow edible tree
                                      enthusiasts around the world. I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                                      of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                                      acres just by where I live on Anglesey also (no grey squirrels on
                                      Anglsey which is a huge bonus for nut tree growing!) I always wanted
                                      to do this because though I liked to plant trees out in the
                                      wild/gurellia planting, lots failed or got trashed and its depressing
                                      when you've planted lots of trees in among gorse bushes and then you
                                      see the landowner grubbing up all those tree nursery sancturies. I
                                      also will have respect from the local mainstream nazi types in terms
                                      of business success by the end of all this. (as for new
                                      age/alternative types, well you couldn't be more out of order if you
                                      set your mind to it eh 'beast', forget it, bye bye scum)

                                      Yes again, most local folks are sound, but again probably due to the
                                      dreadlocks 'disguise' I can perceive quite easily who are the 'nice
                                      guys' and who are the fascists amongst the local folk and farmers. I
                                      think the eco warrior stint has made me less tolerant actually, made
                                      it into a 'respect issue' with these so and so's. I simple wont put up
                                      with it now. Then again its really something I have to let go of as
                                      I'm not actually in the position that I would be perhaps in the
                                      Pashtun tribal areas where what I have done would be honoured by local
                                      people as they are more awake in terms of tribal values than in
                                      heavily colonialised Wales, UK, where the pervert power colonialsit
                                      state is the 'power' rather than tribal values and leadership. You
                                      have to let go and not take it so seriously here because honour cannot
                                      be asserted here, without running into trouble with their order, their
                                      cops and all the rest of it. I do feel it would be different in
                                      Morrocco say, it was in India due to magic/religion. I don't think if
                                      I was able to tap into again this primal alchemic community wide
                                      consciousness/reality shift thing again as an individual saint, that
                                      the authorities there would try and sabatarge by some very nasty and
                                      sick head games at the very least. That seem to be the score in Blighty.

                                      Deep, sorry, just got some pinus pinea seed, more than I need so lets
                                      try sharing again.

                                      Ta

                                      Jim

                                      --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Juliano" <juliano8@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > HI man
                                      >
                                      > I really feel you, and am so sad you feel that way. I cannot
                                      softsoap you, patronize you, and tell you to look at the sunny side,
                                      because I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to people the
                                      real state of things and to wake UP.
                                      >
                                      > I will just say that as well as seeing the encroaching
                                      straightjacket close around us, we still must allow spirit of defiance
                                      even in the face of crazies trying to control how we think, etc.
                                      >
                                      > Things stay with me that I have heard , read etc. For example, I
                                      remember reading a Native American elder talking to some youth and he
                                      told them that : Look, things are going to go faster and faster and
                                      faster. So you must go slower and slower and slower"
                                      >
                                      > hah, I LOVE that. That is not conforming to the imposed opression
                                      being pushed by the schools, the media, economic pressures, one's own
                                      inculcated protestant work ethic which is a 'programming' that can
                                      make people feel guilty if not doing 'anything'.
                                      >
                                      > Even look at how all the programmes, film, are fast edited. All this
                                      makes the brain want faster faster. keep them experiences comin faster
                                      faster faster. Many kids are bored bored bored with Nature! So are
                                      drinking and drugging it. And not many adults have anty answers
                                      because they have lost the thread of knowing where to look.
                                      >
                                      > Hey man. I am with you . Am in same boat. And thanks for saying it ;)
                                      >
                                      > regarde
                                      >
                                      > Juliano
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: cromlech108
                                      > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:20 AM
                                      > Subject: [pfaf] Re: Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yes sure, I'm sure you have to be careful in strick organic regulation
                                      > terms with using scavenged stuff...but I don't think its s real factor
                                      > in the garden. I used to think and belive and experience magic from
                                      > free use, from stuff made at home, being more powerful and more pure
                                      > than a purchased commodity, whether or not it included a small amount
                                      > of what technically might be a poison...to make what becomes some sort
                                      > of magical alchemy that has magical power!...to see that magic fade
                                      > and get squeezed out...depressing when you know its *true*, but you
                                      > just don't have the right set and setting to do the experiment
                                      > properly. I did think actually, of travelling over to Morrocco, and
                                      > walk round relevent areas untill I find the right place, either by
                                      > gift, lease or freehold in which to make a forest garden, within a
                                      > society of relevent and useful religious context...thats important for
                                      > the right head trip...without respect, its like pissing in the wind,
                                      > and I just don't think that respect is possible here in the UK from
                                      > various quarters, especially the state/government. Basically due to
                                      > the lack of 'real time magic' I feel half alive here, trapped in
                                      > materialism. Mind wrenchingly boring. Hard slog, nothing else until
                                      > death.
                                      >
                                      > Allah Akbar
                                      >
                                      > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Cesca Beamish" <cesca@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I have just had my soil association inspection for my growers
                                      > license and
                                      > > was asked to not use cardboard anymore, especially corrugated
                                      > because of the
                                      > > glues. They must have done some research before saying this so I am
                                      > going to
                                      > > see if I find out more. Id be interested to hear if a cardboard
                                      company
                                      > > manages to say anything specific!
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Cesca
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > _____
                                      > >
                                      > > From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      > Of Travis
                                      > > Philp
                                      > > Sent: 01 March 2008 20:59
                                      > > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [pfaf] Cardboard - toxic or not?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks for all of your input everyone, though I feel like I'm more
                                      > confused
                                      > > than when I started :)
                                      > >
                                      > > I do only use cardboard in the first year of my garden beds but I am
                                      > still
                                      > > concerned about what that leaves behind. I feel more confident in
                                      > cardboard
                                      > > than I do black plastic or bio mulch but I'd still like to know
                                      > exactly what
                                      > > I'm putting in my soil. It may be something that doesn't leach
                                      out. The
                                      > > quantity of toxins left behind may not be large but with some toxins
                                      > as you
                                      > > probably no...it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage. I'm very
                                      > concerned
                                      > > with water retardants that may be present in the cardboard and what
                                      > that may
                                      > > include in its ingredients.
                                      > >
                                      > > As for safe alternative paper sources such as hemp...I don't think
                                      > they're
                                      > > very abundant here in Ontario Canada. Hemp is just beginning to
                                      become a
                                      > > local industry and I am not aware of any hemp paper producers within
                                      > > feasible distance of my home.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think I'll call Smurfit-Stone (cardboard producer) and see if I
                                      > can get a
                                      > > straight answer from them. I'm guessing their definition of toxic is
                                      > looser
                                      > > than mine though.
                                      > >
                                      > > I practice a similar style of lasagne garden bed preparation as
                                      > mentioned in
                                      > > a previous post and I've been thinking of replacing the cardboard
                                      > layer with
                                      > > an extra layer of leaves or straw. It may not be quite as
                                      effective but
                                      > > should do the trick. Unfortunately I have to get my mulch
                                      materials from
                                      > > offsite because I garden at my college's community garden and
                                      therefore
                                      > > cannot grow my own mulch plants.
                                      > >
                                      > > Travis
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
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                                      > Checked by AVG.
                                      > Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date:
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                                      >
                                    • cromlech108
                                      ... I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a barely credible
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 14, 2008
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                                        --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "cromlech108" <cromlech108@...> wrote:

                                        > I'm currently planting up an arboretum
                                        > of 'edibles'in east Sussex and have just exchanged contracts on 7.5
                                        > acres just by where I live on Anglesey also

                                        I thought afterwards people in other parts of the world might be
                                        thinking - huh 7.5 acres, thats nothing. Get this: that land cost a
                                        barely credible £72000. Thats around £10000/acre. Unreal price for
                                        North Wales...possibly the seaside factor coming in there, Anglseys
                                        has become very fashionable recently, and Red Wharf Bay, an exclusive
                                        and desirable area. The initial guide price was £18000 for the lot. I
                                        was AB-SOL-UTE-LY determined to buy it. I had to buy it. Fortunatly I
                                        am selling some land elsewhere at an equally silly price, and so could
                                        bid up to that price. Its very sweet area of land and is right in
                                        front of my cottage there. I had to buy it....its a wooded mound, so
                                        you can see the trees on it laid out in front of you across a small
                                        private valley. the previous owner was tree nut and so its well
                                        managed with the Foresrt Commissions conifers having been replaced
                                        with natives, especially oak, in a planned way...as more gaps are
                                        opened up I shall plant nut and fruit trees for my friends, the birds!

                                        Blessings.

                                        TIBETAN TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY!

                                        ;)
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