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Re: [pfaf] Wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs

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  • Griselda Mussett
    I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective customers look it
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 16, 2007
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      I happen to work promoting an excellent fruit and vegetable nutrition
      supplement - 17 whole raw ripe f&v in capsules. Many of my prospective
      customers look it up on google or Wikipedia and find there several
      articles and pages knocking the product - particularly one called
      Quackbuster which has over 70 websites knocking natural and traditional
      cures. Not surprisingly, they are dissuaded from trying our
      supplement, which is a shame not only for my business but also for
      their health, as it is such a good, simple, and efficacious product.

      I am delighted to tell you that the doctor who helps run these
      'knocking' pages (Stephen Barrett MD) has just lost a colossal court
      case in the States, after he sued another doctor (Tedd Koren) for
      defamation. He is leaving his home town and operating base in
      Allentown, Pennsylvania.

      I have here a longish account detailing exactly what has been announced
      today which I am happy to send to anyone who is interested, or I can
      post it here for you all if you want.

      In summary "......Steven Barrett is an unlicensed Pennsylvania
      psychiatrist, who, though he failed his psychiatric boards and has been
      criticized for his lack of expertise by several courts, still claims to
      often advise the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Food and Drug
      Administration (FDA), the FBI, State Attorneys General, HMOs, Consumer
      Reports, medical journals and state medical, chiropractic  and dental
      boards.  The insurance industry cites Barrett's highly opinionated
      Quackbuster attacks to deny paying claims for chiropractic and other
      natural healthcare....

      Barrett and the Quackbusters, a vigilante group of self proclaimed
      sceptics of any medical or health modality that avoids drugs, surgery
      or radiation, attack almost all non-conventional healthcare practices
      as quackery.  Ignoring all scientific research to the contrary, they
      dismiss Gulf War Syndrome, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Chemical
      Sensitivity, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and dietary supplements as
      rubbish. Double Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is on their quack
      hit list along with many well known and respected doctors and
      scientists, including Deepak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and dozens of
      others........

      The Quackbusters run over 70 websites.  Millions of people go to them
      every year. Look up chiropractic, acupuncture, homeopathy or even
      vitamin C, as well as almost every other natural health topic, on the
      Internet and you (and the public) will be led to Quackbuster sites
      advising you of natural health dangers.  In all these forums Barrett
      and the Quackbusters relentlessly attack the consumer right to informed
      choice.  These activities continue the AMA's anti-quackery committee's
      activities that were struck down by federal courts as an illegal
      restraint of trade in a landmark lawsuit brought by Illinois
      chiropractor Chester Wilk.  They also help insurance companies deny
      consumer reimbursement claims....."

      The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it. I am so
      pleased to report this to you. We are prevented in Europe from
      describing food as medicine, as the (p)harmaceutical lobby is so
      powerful, and yet so many plants are what we need for health and
      wellbeing, and so much knowledge will be lost unless we are free to
      share it.

      yours

      Griselda Mussett















      On 16 Jul 2007, at 12:04, David Foale wrote:

      > :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for
      > thousands of
      > years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists
      > even
      > misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...
      >
      > David
      > x
      > On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal
      > herbs,
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
      > > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
      > > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
      > >
      > > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good
      > references
      > > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
      > > references could be really helpful.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
      >
      > phone: 0774 3917404
      > skype: daresbalat
      > msn: bobulatorm@...
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

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    • Donald Sunday
      thanks for the information!It s really helpfull. Richard Morris wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia s list of
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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        thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

        Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
        A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
        the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

        Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
        for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
        references could be really helpful.






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      • Infowolf1@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, griselda1@btopenworld.com writes: The article I have here has lots more detail if you want
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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          In a message dated 7/16/2007 2:37:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          griselda1@... writes:

          The article I have here has lots more detail if you want it.


          Please post a copy here, and send me a copy
          Infowolf1 AT aol.com







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        • Martin Naylor
          It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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            It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America 2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60 % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant sources
            A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any investigations done
            also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds rights
            Martin


            "Business men drink my wine Proud men dig my earth"

            "They say that patriotism is the last refuge
            To which a scoundrel clings.
            Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
            Steal a lot and they make you king.
            There's only one step down from here, baby,
            It's called the land of permanent bliss.
            What's a sweetheart like you doin' in a dump like this?"
            Bob Dylan






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          • Infowolf1@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au writes: It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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              In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              martinwnaylor@... writes:

              It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
              2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
              % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
              sources
              A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
              investigations done
              also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
              rights
              Martin




              which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
              but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
              stores
              any more anyway.

              i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
              them with
              things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
              pharmacist is not told
              about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
              harmless, and use it
              with prescription meds.

              Or with some herbs.

              Infowolf1



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            • icculus2000@yahoo.com
              Hello everyone, This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices. Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                Hello everyone,

                This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It has many components.

                This is where we come into the isolation of single constituents - which can be patented, due largely to Henry Kissinger, I believe, and the commodities market schemers.
                The drug company will not make as much money if it uses the WHOLE herb (or root, leaf, stem, mushroom, etc) because they do not OWN it. However, there is ample evidence pointing to the benefits of using the whole herb versus isolated constituents.

                Now companies can isolate constituents or compounds and synthesize them, cutting the earth and the grower out of the loop (this is without even getting into genetically engineered products - they can patent those, too). Then they can sell them. As soon as food items and drugs became part of the buying and selling game, the whole hypocratic oath went out the window, really. Think about it.. The doctor could prescribe an herb or other natural remedy for your condition, but the drug company is going to pay him to prescribe "x" amount of Ritalin or Paxil by the end of the year; so that's what you're getting.

                Oh, I know, there are a thousand stories about how little Jimmy was saved by the magical medicine, but look at who is doing the storytelling - at least in the mainstream.

                This leads us neatly back to Rich's request (you thought I had lost the plot, didn't you Rich?) - we have returned like a cycle on the land to the dire need for actual references to cases in which medicinal herbs worked and were documented in some sort of record.

                Please send anything you have in this theme to Rich at PFAF.
                (it wouldn't hurt to carbon copy us by clicking "reply to group" so that other people can hear about it.)

                I must bring up the fact that our present pharmacopia of drugs in the west comes predominantly from plants, many of them originating in the rainforest. But lets think of aspirin for a moment (that's paracetamol for you in the UK, I think). Doesn't Aspirin derive from the bark of willow roots? Surely there are numerous instances like this on record?
                Let's find them.

                I have to mention here that Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and Traditional Indian Medicine (Ayurveda) would also likely be prime sources. Thousands of years of practice has to reveal empirical evidence. Look at Tulsi, for instance.. Holy Basil (Ocimum sanctum) is one of the most prescribed whole-plant extracts in Ayurveda - Aswagandha (Withania somniferum) too. Both show evidence of being very safe stress relievers and adaptogenic herbs, among other uses.

                The trouble with this whole debate is that the traditional western medical community doesn't recognise anyone's evidence except their own. How do you prove the infallibility of the pope to a buddhist? Or explain life after death to a nihilist?

                Some of the writers in this thread suggest separating the listings of information in order to define the medical from the folkloric..
                Well i say that would be playing right in to the hands of the western critics of plant medicine - they'll claim we have backed off from our stance that medicinal herbs are a viable alternative to "drugs."

                I'll leave the thread there, because I need sleep.

                Peace and love,

                Steve


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              • Infowolf1@aol.com
                In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, icculus2000@yahoo.com writes: Drug companies cannot sell drugs unless they own them. They
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 17, 2007
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                  In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:27:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                  icculus2000@... writes:

                  Drug companies cannot sell 'drugs' unless they own them. They cannot own
                  them unless they are patented. A whole plant, herb, tree, mushroom, etc. in its
                  natural form (unadulterated by man) cannot be patented because it is OF THE
                  EARTH, not of a company's or individual's creating (see the neem issue). It
                  has many components.




                  Actually, they can if they discover it and some are trying.



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                • Rick van Rein
                  Hi, ... But on THIS list...?!? -Rick
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                    Hi,

                    > This thread opens up a huge topic relating to economic manipulation of medical practices.

                    But on THIS list...?!?

                    -Rick
                  • Martin Naylor
                    sorry mate but i am am stuck with a great person and quiting and again ProfesorRon Nielson The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ] The annual global market value
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 18, 2007
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                      sorry mate
                      but i am am stuck with a great person
                      and quiting and again

                      ProfesorRon Nielson

                      The Little GREEN HANDBOOK [pg 40 ]

                      The annual global market value of pharmaceutical products derived from the genetics's bank of of the earth's biodiversity has been $75 billion and $150 billion
                      the annual global market for herbal medicines is 38 billion dollars of the top 150 top prescription drugs in the U S A IN 1997 WERE FROM BIOLOGICAL SOURCES

                      So you are telling me
                      that science knows the solution and our lives are nothing but a tool for society
                      Your mate
                      from the land down under
                      Out of site out of mind
                      martin


                      Plant your plants and
                      Let them grow





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                    • Dee Harris
                      Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It s the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                        Many of the so-called dangerous herbs are not as dangerous as you may think. It's the way that they are used and the amounts. Of course, a lot of study and practice goes into learning herbalism. I"ve spent years learning what I know about herbs and alot of the so called dangerous herbs I use quite often without any adverse affects. Learning and practice and more learning and practice is what is needed and study. Lots of study. Check everything out before using any herb. It's only common sense.
                        Wolf

                        Infowolf1@... wrote:

                        In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:42:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        martinwnaylor@... writes:

                        It is also true that prescription medicine is the biggest killer in America
                        2 years ago 700.000 people died from legal drugs [prescription medicine], 60
                        % of prescription drugs have the essential ingredient derived from plant
                        sources
                        A lot of herbs don't have scientific proof because there hasn't been any
                        investigations done
                        also this is about chemical gangs like Monsanto controlling plans and seeds
                        rights
                        Martin

                        which doesn't make herbs safe. You have to handle some of them carefully,
                        but the most dangerous ones don't usually turn up in health food
                        stores
                        any more anyway.

                        i think it is not the prescription meds so much as the mixing of
                        them with
                        things, that the doctor is not told about, or that the
                        pharmacist is not told
                        about, and these stupid people think if it is OTC it is
                        harmless, and use it
                        with prescription meds.

                        Or with some herbs.

                        Infowolf1

                        ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                        http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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                      • Dee Harris
                        Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don t have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                          Try Mrs Grieves Herbal. I don't have the full addy but all you need is the title I just gave. There are so many herbal sites that open up a whole new world on what's out there that is better than the patented medicines that the doctors are handing out like candy.
                          Wolf

                          Donald Sunday <donsonde20@...> wrote:
                          thanks for the information!It's really helpfull.

                          Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote: A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                          A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                          the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.

                          Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                          for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                          references could be really helpful.


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                        • Dee Harris
                          May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper s Herbal? LOL Wolf ... years are just deluding themselves! I m starting to think scientists even
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                            May I suggest that they send these guys a copy of Culpepper's Herbal? LOL
                            Wolf

                            David Foale <anarchybob@...> wrote:
                            :D I love that attitude, sure, people have been using them for thousands of
                            years are just deluding themselves! I'm starting to think scientists even
                            misuse empirical evidence, the basis of their whole belief system...

                            David
                            x
                            On 16/07/07, Richard Morris <mailinglists@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > A bit of a dispute is emerging on wikipedia's list of medicinal herbs,
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medicinal_herbs
                            > A few people with a rather hard science atitude are trying to trash
                            > the list, claiming its just unscientific fringe material.
                            >
                            > Help could be needed in fleshing out the list finding good references
                            > for the medicinal uses of the plants. Finding good authoritive
                            > references could be really helpful.
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

                            phone: 0774 3917404
                            skype: daresbalat
                            msn: bobulatorm@...

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                          • Martin Naylor
                            No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don t cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist we are
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 19, 2007
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                              No 700,000 deaths are from the side effects, most drugs don't cure the alleviate, sure some herbs are dangerous and can kill, i am a qualified herbalist
                              we are a carbon based molecular system anything that affects that system is a drug
                              Martin


                              Plant your plants and
                              Let them grow
                              i'm just a singer in a rock and roll band
                              scorching this earth






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